What's your opinion on this great unsung hero? Why is his name mentioned way less in the history books than the names of Lorenzo De Medici or Ludovico Il Moro? He could have united Italy more than 300 years before the Savoia's with a little more luck on his side! Let's discuss the greatest hero of Italian reinassance, /his/.
>>271957
who dislikes this guy is probably an assassin creed fan
>>271963
Ass Creed sums up half the stuff I hate about 'pop history'.
>>271957
Probably because he was a Borgia. I've heard one historian describe them as a proto-mafia crime family - not to mention some of the less savory things the family did as a whole after getting power.
Serious question: Did Machiavelli really have a huge boner for this guy or was he just being sarcastic? I honestly could never tell when I was reading The Prince.
>>272691
The Borgias weren't any worse than anyone else at the time. There wasn't anything excessively evil about Alexander or his appointment as pope (everyone was bribing everyone else; Julius secured his papacy by taking advantage of a sick Cesare to promise him support for his Romagna plans that Julius never intended to support). There's the incest murder allegations which, again, mainly come from Alexander's enemeis and hold about as much validity as Julius being a fag.
>>272715
>huge boner for this guy or was he just being sarcastic
Both. In his ideal world Cesare is a criminal, but he acknowledges that in reality people like him are needed.
>>271957
>What's your opinion on this great unsung hero?
One of the uncountable horde of failed conquerors in history.
>Why is his name mentioned way less in the history books than the names of Lorenzo De Medici or Ludovico Il Moro?
Because he lost. And also because he pretty much lost all his relevance as soon as daddy dearest died.
>He could have united Italy more than 300 years before the Savoia's with a little more luck on his side!
Oh please, by the time he failed he barely managed to take a third of Italy, and the weakest one at that. He would have never managed to conquer Venice, or take Naples from the spaniards, or Milan from the french.
>>272738
Samefagging but anyone would owe it to themselves to read the manga Cesare which is about Cesare during his time at the University of Pisa. Really good; the writer (who had done mainly shoujo stuff up to that point) works very closely with a Renaissance scholar on the series to make sure it's fairly accurate. The art (especially the environments) is absolutely gorgeous.
>>272824
>who had done mainly shoujo stuff up to that point
You say that like it's a bad thing. Mars and Eternal Sabbath are actually very well known works.
>>271957
He was kinda a spaniard so that makes him a bad hero for Italy, and spaniards are self-haters and meme lovers who will parrot all the possible memes about the Borgias rather than claiming him.
>>272865
>hero for Italy
But he did nothing at all for Italy. Even had his father been italian (his mother already was), why would italians celebrate him?
did anybody read this? how true is it?
>>272905
>Manara
Chances are it's more oversexualized than a HBO production.
>>272898
He kinda tried to unite it and shit. Or has Machiavelli jewed me again?
>>272926
He kinda tried to create a personal state by invading legitimate rulers without the least support from the local population using the army of a loathed pope and a foreign monarch. He only managed to start a century of warfare on italian soil by creating that political monstruosity called the papal states (yes, the state itself is older than that, but they were pretty much temporally irrelevant before Cesare and Giulio II) culminating in all the peninsula minus Venice and the Papacy being under foreign rule. Also consider that italians back then (just like now) were extreme localists, with pseudo-national identities that bound them more strongly to their regional potentates than any concept of "Italian Nation". He's more like an enemy of the country than anythung.
>>272926
Oh also Macchiavelli didn't jew you, it's just that he was a very strong supporter of a united Italy and of the end justifying the means, so Cesare's actions were in line with Niccolò's objectives.
>>272849
I saw it more because shoujo is not really where you're going to look for well-researched historical fiction with a large focus on church politics with some theology thrown in.
Which reminds me I need to get around to reading Rose of Versailles.
>>272974
>Which reminds me I need to get around to reading Rose of Versailles.
*childhood memories ensue*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os9IakD5NOw
Cesare Borgia is completely influential in a time where there was a widely held superstition of fortuna and how nature would come and ruin your plans so you better not try anything. For Machiavelli, Borgia is one of the first "realists" in politics. He just did what he wanted and didn't bow to superstition.
Although, it shows how fragile his power was when his father died, he practically lost everything.
Personally i like him for being a great war strategist, and im into incest, so the rumor of him sleeping with his sister got my attention. Im a perv.
>>271963
Or likes
He was made famous to the young generation by assassins creed and The Borgias and Borgia TV series
>>272999
>The Borgias and Borgia TV series
There are two?
>>273020
Yes. One shittier than the other too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borgias_%282011_TV_series%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgia_%28TV_series%29
>>273020
Borgia is 100 times better. Cesare isn't bland in the european version, instead, he's inspiring.
>>273033
I hope you mean the HBO series is worse
>>273037
I mean they're both shit. The HBO series was so boring I dropped it half a season in, and the european one was so (purposefully, since the author admittedly tried to adapt the story to the message) historically inaccurate it amde Troy look realistic.
>>273055
Over the top, flat dialogue, bad acting (aside from based Jeremy Irons, which was still worse than his average performance).
>>273055
The Borgias has generally less historicity and more stuff that they've invented just for entertainment purposes.The Borgias also was cancelled so it isn't complete and has a half assed ending. Borgia is slower but Cesare is portrayed as a real hero like him should be: B A S E D. The Borgias Cesare never changes and Borgia Cesare changes throughout the series.
>>273051
Historical accuracy shouldn't be a reason why a television series is bad. It's purpose is to entertain.
>>271957
this guy nearly did it 100 years earlier without daddy to protect him. the only lost cause he died suddenly from fever. he was the on the verge of sieging florence and conquering it
>>273099
lel, its not entertaining when you totally bastardize the historical events. of course a show is to entertain, but a show that follows the historical events more or less, meticulously captures the culture, the mentality and even the individual personalities as they come through memoirs, letters and the like would be infinitely better than some fuckfest melodrama
>>273223
Are you autistic?
It's an exaggeration of characters and events for entertainment purposes. No work of fiction is going to be completely historically accurate. If you want that read a history book or watch a documentary.
It's not a valid criticism at all. Whether you enjoy a television series is one thing, but your argument is the equivalent of saying a film based on a novel is bad because it doesn't follow the exact same plot, regardless of how it stands on it's own merits.
>>272715
The prince is 100% serious. The idea that it was a 'parody' was created by Machiavelli's political opponent's to discredit his writings.
>>272905
Almost nothing there is true. The comic itself is quite entertaining though.
>>273282
did you read my comment senpai? i said i want a show that follows
>historical events more or less
doesn't have to be perfect. artistic license is fine, but it is a matter of degrees. I wouldn't mind more license taken with a period of history we have less certainty about, like vikings for example. but why add needless sex, violence and melodrama like the borgias does? that's not entertainment to me, especially considering the details of that period are already very interesting in themselves. no need for embellishment.
>exaggeration
good acting and drama is all about subtlety senpai, even in historical shows and films.
>you want that read a history book or watch a documentary.
not a bad suggestion, i like history books a lot. but there also exists good historical fiction too that aspires to historical accuracy while telling a story, though i imagine its harder and more expensive to transform history onto tv.
>>271957
He fucked his sister
>>272824
The art and characters seem a lot like Legend of the Galactic Heroes with Cesare as Reinhard.
>>274800
So you're telling me that it's chock full of homoeroticsm? Sounds good.
any book suggestions on military and political history of this period in italian history?
>>275000
https://warosu.org/lit/thread/S6933866#p6936614
>>273020
I watched both. The EU one is much better. Be warned though the acting is weird bc the script writers first language is not English.
Both of them like to take rumours and play with them.
Good show. Cesare is a cool man. Need a real book on him though.
>>273090
Pretty much this. Borgia has much better character development. THE BORGIAS was planned for 4 seasons, the writer didn't have it in him to write the fourth and wanted to do a 2 hour movie instead. Showtime couldn't afford it and they ended up ending it at a strange point.
Also, its gay for shoehorning in gay characters. Fuck off with that shit.
The finally script is on Amazon. Its called Borgia apocalypse . But just buy a biography desu.
The creator of THE BORGIAS also did Tudors and Viking by the way. Its a good show but desu with the ending the way it was its hard to recommend over BORGIA.
>>271957
>family of corrupt heretic degenerates
>hero
>>275844
Actually it's just propaganda created by their enemies. They were hated because they weren't full blooded Italians. For example, after Cesare died, the false rumors on Lucrezia ceased and she was depicted as a good woman and a caring mother.
>>276030
He "conquered" Milan with a french army led by a french general. The french conquered Milan, he was only their ally. And how would he have united Italy by giving pieces away to foreigners anyway?
>>273074
Yeah, he was REALLY hamming it up there, like his D&D movie level ham
>>275670
Pretty much everything about the Euro version is way better. The only real problems with it were the accents. An American Alexander IV (although admittedly that kind of worked since it kind of gave a sense how accepted he was historically) and a German/Austrian Lucrezia were super jarring. They looked the part, but every time they spoke it took me out of it. Also Cesare's ending was cheesy as all fuck.
