My professor says that the Inca were already collapsing before Pizarro got to America. Is this true or did a few hundred Spaniards really conquer such a huge civilization. Also are the rumors of the Amazon rainforest being manmade true?
Id lie to learn a bit more about the Aztecs fall as well, why was Monteczuma such a kekold?
>>262423
Smallpox raped the Andes a generation before Pizarro showed up
They were having a civil war of succession.
>>262424
This.
Fucking germs, man.
So pretty much it was a pushover for Pizarro and the spanish?
The Incas were an incredibly based civilization that was at the end of a long and bloody war of succession between half-brothers, probably the weakest they had ever been as an empire, when they got fucked by smallpox and Pizarro, in that order.
No, the Spanish did not conquer their civilization with a few hundred people. Pizarro needed to use some clever tricks, kidnappings and ransoming, even with the already precarious state of the Empire. As for the Aztecs: Cortez, a few hundred Spaniards and literally thousands of warriors from subjected nations (who were fed up with Aztec rule, human sacrifice, flower wars, all that), AND the advantages of disease, smallpox, and Moctezuma being an incompetent traitor were all needed to conquer them.
Could the Spanish have conquered the Incas and Aztecs without disease when they were at full strength? Probably, from the massive technological advantages alone. But it would've been much, much more difficult.
>>262494
I thought that the Incas underestimated the military advantages of the spaniards (horses, plate armors, fire arms, stuff like that), and they were fucked by them in Cajamarca.
>>262509
That wasn't the final battle of that conquest.
Cortez was a fucking stategic genius, using the Aztecs religion against them, using the fact that they didnt really know about cannon to freak them out by not using the cannon against them but instead to freak them the fuck out, burying his horses and men at night to make them appear supernatural, etc. Not to mention he was able to translate nuhatl which lead to all this
>>262520
>using the Aztecs religion against them
Elaborate?
>>262509
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Inca_State
>>262529
If he's referring to the bearded pale man prophecy he's retarded, that was a huge stroke of luck on Cortez's part
>>262529
Playing up the Quetzalcoatl thing, whether the Aztecs bought it or not
>>262548
He still found out about it and played it up, even if it was a stroke of luck
>>262556
I'm not saying he wasn't a good strategist, but you'd have to be a really terrible one to not take advantage of looking like a god from a prophecy.
>"god? no lol actually were just humans with lighter skin from across the ocean, mkay hand over the empire now"
They had an epidemic and a related civil war, but they were hardly collapsing. It was just a war of succession that had ended by the time the Spanish arrived. The Incas had built the most unified and well structured state that had ever existed in the Americas, where the population was tightly controlled and resistance wasn't much of a possibility. It's been described as an early totalitarian state. It might have fallen later, as every empire does, but I imagine it would have lasted longer than a century if not for the Spanish.
>>262572
And all without writing
>inb4 knots are LIKE writing
No, no they're not.
>>262573
Well, quipu probably did help with record-keeping and communications, so they could have served somewhat similar functions. Of course they couldn't hold the same ideological and intellectual role that real writing did, but they still helped the state to function which is probably the most important part.
>>262572
I thought the hills were supposed to be refuges from civilization.
In native America, mountain peoples civilize YOU.
>>262520
>Not to mention he was able to translate nuhatl which lead to all this
your post is full of bullshit and you are a faggot
>>262572
That wall is impossible to build, it was the aliens. Prove me wrong.
Off-topic;
Why there is so much architecture autism in /his/ but no good debate about the insane ancient buildings that would be literally impossible to do nowadays.
Sunset invasion
>>262991
But he was able to use a chain of translators to figure out the language
>>262481
>Moctezuma being an incompetent traitor
How? I thought he knew Cortes was an invader from a foreign king, but he couldn't do shit because the aztec priests hailed him and Q-coatl
>>263014
>literally impossible
Except it isn't and it wasn't.
>>263014
this
>>263014
Its just using irregular instead of regular blocks man.
Its not that hard.
Its actually a fuckton of work though.
>>263014
They actually left imperfections for aesthetic affect.
>>262573
As far as I know writing is usually developed for accounting in mind rather than writing prose, so you could count it as a primitive writing. After all if you have to write down your myths, they were probably pretty shitty myths to begin if you didn't know them by heart already.
>>263014
>impossible to do nowadays
its not tho and the only reasone we dont do it is because we can do it cheaper, faster and practically as good with way less effort
>>263354
okey riddle me this why would aliens who where literally capable of interstellar travle feel the need to make each irregular rock fit when they just as easily if not easier have excavated perfectly symmetrical rocks of the same size and saved them selves the whole jigsaw crap?
The reason that the Inca Empire was so susceptible to the impact of disease was that it was a labour based empire. They had no formal currency, labour was how the Inca taxed and managed their subjects through the Mit'a. They could build what they did because they could mobilize massive amounts of labour each year. This was not slave labour either, workers working outside their homes would be compensated and accommodated, it was more like public service in lieu of taxation. Long before the Inca came around reciprocal labour had existed between communities, but the Inca were so wildly successful in that they centrally organized and 'taxed' it in such a way that no other previous state had done. The Inca also controlled the textile trade. It was the version of labour taxation for women across the Empire and as formalized and as important as male labour. Textiles were a pan-Empire status symbol and the highest quality textiles were tightly controlled and produced within Cuzco, as they were power markers of wealth and prestige that could be endowed to good subjects. Textiles were also made at regional and local levels, of decreasing quality as one moved to smaller units, so that subject's subjects could acquire status and so on down the line.
So when diseases roll across the Empire, it's not just a lot of people die, which is bad enough, but that the whole system that kept the Empire functioning broke down. After a civil war over what was left, when Pizarro walks in he finds a great opportunity for himself.
>>264013
Why do people hit golfballs instead of grabbing them and dropping them to the hole?
>>264018
Do we know how badly disease hit the Incas, or are there only rough estimates? I know that Andeans were generally rural and lacked large cities outside of the littoral, and disease tends to spread much faster in urbanized areas so imagine it wasn't as damaging there as it was in Mesoamerica.
>>264210
I've read one estimate that 4 out of 10 people died in the first wave, but we can never know solidly how many died. The population estimates of the Empire at pre-conquest high ranges from 12-32 million. The problem with a highly connected Empire is disease can spread as fast as people move across it. You can find Inca outposts in the middle of no where with connection to the Inca road network or an offshoot. It's crazy.
>>262481
>Could the Spanish have conquered the Incas and Aztecs without disease when they were at full strength?
Not until mid XIX Century, America would have become another Africa if not because of desease.
>>264251
I love that they had outposts all the way in Argentina. Makes me wonder how far Andean civilization might have spread if it wasn't destroyed. They might have flourished in the Pampas.
>Incan Empire in decline
>Still almost annihilated the Spanish more than once
>Spanish had thousands of Aztecs, Tlaxcalans, and other indigenous allies with them in it for conquest and riches themselves
>diseases wipes out society already, just small pockets of people left (like a post-apocalyptic world)
>Pizarro is welcomed into one of the capital cities with all the royal army being unarmed
>Everyone just only some 470 years later asks "did a couple hundred Spaniards take over a huge empire like the Incas all by themselves?
Talk about history being ignored, forgotten, and revised. Also OP, to start, Wiki should be able to answer most questions you have asked on here
>>262481
Incas probably knew they were comming in advance, they killed a squad comming from Argentina.
Aztecs had it comming, any barbarian group that may enter their empire could have wiped out them, expell the Spaniards is a different thing.
Incas might try to send ambassadors to Spain in the first official encounter, and most probably not the Inca himsfelf. I think today would be pretty much Asia, but without the Inca Empire proper but smaller entities.
>>264305
Don't know, Incas only conquest civilized or that could be civilized peoples. They were scared of the Jungle for example.
>>262572
i get the feeling the Incas would have developed much like Summerians while the rest of the American civilizations stumbled back into primitive savages over and over. They had promise.
>>264023
because the difficulty is the point
if they were really going for something ridiculously difficult they could have done something actually impossible for us, you know.
Why do history books/courses always group the Maya, Aztecs and Inca together?
I can understand the first two, since they came from the same place and the Maya had a huge influence on Aztec culture. But the Inca? They had fuck all to do with the other two. It would be like studying classical Greece and Celtic Britain as one unit.
>>264013
Because that's how houses are supposed to be built
>>264605
>but why the Inca and the Aztec?
Because they both were Amerindian cultures that suffered the same fate.
They were weaker than their former selves, but nobody can deny that the European soldiers absolutely stomped Incan and Aztec warriors, even in hand to hand. Their empires would have fallen quickly even without the pox.
Deus Vult yo
>>263014
Because they're not impossible to build. We haven't built anything like that with manual labor for so long that those techniques fell out of use. This should be obvious to an actual amateur historian that can make basic observations and educated guesses. IE not conspiritards.
>>264605
I think it helps that the three have more superficial/aesthetic similarities between themselves, and are understudied when compared to Ancient Greece and Celtic Britain.
>>264013
The belief of them visiting in the past goes beyond that, research it yourself.
>>264793
DUDE ALIENS LMAO
>>262423
The Inca were a mess and Pizarro is simply the luckiest man to ever live
Cortes was the real impressive leader since he found an enemy at its height and at a severe disadvantage.
Pizzaro stumbled into a collapsing empire in the middle of a massive civil war; after having most of his own force abandon him, and fell ass backwards into the wealthiest lands on earth.
>>264013
because Ancient Aliums is the stupidest theory ever and most of these people either outright lie about the details or are ignorant themselves.
like those rocks pictured are well within bronze-age tier abilities as shown by Cyclopian architecture in Greece, and the stone itself is not granite or any supremely hard material but lighter limestones and other far easily cared rock.
>>264396
Nobody says that they conquered these massive empires all by themselves. The fact was though that Cortes and Pizarro both left for conquest with a paltry amount of men, and ended up taking over entire empires.
They started with very little and ended with everything.
>>264793
>I make a statement and tell you to go research it yourself
Thats not how it works anon
>>264861
I've read books on it and its a load of nonsense like all alien theories are.
Aliens don't exist in any relevant form
>>264870
What books?
So, were the Incas a proof that communism is possible in certain environments? I haven't read any actual historical books about them, but I'm tempted to pick something up.
The basic stuff on the web makes them look pretty different from all the other civilisations, like the fact that they had the labour exchanges, marriage was decided by the community, no money system except for outside trade, etc.
>>264872
Chariots of the gods
it was utter bunk
two others as well but they were just awful and poorly researched.
honestly anyone who believes this nonsense is just a moron plain and simple.
>>264923
>communism
In what way did the Inca violently overthrow their bourgeois oppressors?
>>264923
I dont know much about the Incans, but most of that doesnt sound like communism. Keep in mind the Romans didnt have a set currency either for alot of their existence; their economy was barter based.
There was interest on Incas at a mongols thread, so I'll dump links for more info.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-inca-empire-engineered-road-would-endure-centuries-180955709/?no-ist
About the Incan Road. It was as much rope bridges and rockcut stairs as it was cobbled pavements. This suposeddly explains why they didn't develop the wheel, for people on foot and lhamas were the most effective transport systems available on such conditions. Pic related.
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=EFD-iAC-xKEC&lpg=PA83&pg=PA83&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
About their moneyless economy.
http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html
Info about the smallpox epidemic.
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/33/13322.abstract
Child sacrifice.
http://www.nap.edu/catalog/1398/lost-crops-of-the-incas-little-known-plants-of-the
Crops they had, that aren't planted anymore
http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/7766/1/cp-5-375-2009.pdf
Meteorological factors for the rise of the Inca Empire.
I remember reading that lhama poop was essential for their agriculture, but can't find any link.
>>264923
no
they were not communist in any way
they were closer to the pharaonic bureaucracy of Ancient Egypt where labour was tied to households and dominions which all ultimately came under the rule of the Great House of the Pharaoh.
>>264928
And yet the "History" Channel plays Ancient Aliens seemingly 24/7.
>>264942
like for example this is how the Egyptian economy functioned
a large class of professionals and craftsmen or otherwise independent farmers provided the bulk of the taxation, which was then re-distributed to other sections of the nation in the form of endowments by the Palace, and then further along by smaller houses.
its just a magnified version of the Palace/Temple economies of ancient Crete and Mesopotamia where the central location acts as a combination of bank/warehouse to store and distribute goods/services.
its a corporatist system which is how most early societies function including anarchic ones.
>>264955
because idiots love it?
replace Jesus with Zenu and it makes them feel whole inside.
>>264961
forgot
>>264996
>The answer is obvious once you start reading about the Sumerians.
have you ever read any REAL books on the summerians?
desu they are just the go-to "old" civ for all these hacks because no one knows a dam thing about them.
there is literally zero evidence for any of this aside from their lies.
>>265008
desu I'd rather read Conan the Barbarian if I wanted my pre-history fantasies.
>>263939
>so you could count it as a primitive writing
No you fucking can't
>>264996
>kek you only watched a documentary
>KEKEKE you read THAT book? HAHA! read more books!
>I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right I am right ALIUMS!
fucking faggot
Aliens is the answer for people who dont really care about the truth and just want this fantasy to resort to in order to feel important in the universe because they are scaredy lambs of god in denial about their devotion to a religion it's not cool to profess anymore.
Every mystery is Aliens, because then we can feel less inadequate about our ancestors' magnificence but also be vain and flaunt at how higher our crackpot 'enlightened' knowledge is.
>>265008
>no one knows a dam thing about them.
[citation needed]
>>265122
plus if anything it makes us feel less important
>>264528
>a squad coming from Argentina
That did not happen. Spaniards reached Perú first
>>262520
Well there is a rather fun thing regarding cannons, guns and horses.
In the battle between the Spanish with allies and the Aztec the Aztec stood firm when hit by cannons. See they could at least fathom how projectiles work, sure it had a loud bang and produced smoke but they understood it was a projectile machine and not space magic. Horses however were a different matter, men riding horses was some straight up alien shit to them. Just a few dozen of them were able to charge the entire enemy army and make them flee for their lives.
>>265161
they figured out they could kill the horses pretty quickly though, or otherwise scare them with lines of pikes to stop a charge
>>265205
The biggest animal these guys ever saw was a 80 pound Llama. They had no anti-cavalry tactics, no pikes (maybe some spears) and fought on open ground. The horses they killed were in the streets of the city while the riders were attempting to flee.
Did the Mesoamerican civilizations have any formal contact or knowledge of each other, even theough mere rumors? Did they know anything at all about the Amerindians of North America?
>>265238
Bernal Diaz mentions that they got used to Horses fairly quickly and by the time they actually reached Tenochtitlan the fear factor was pretty minimal
>>265311
there were major trade-networks at least across North America.
>>265321
They won the Battle of Otumba pretty much due to cavalry though. Either they still feared them greatly or they didn't but simple failed to produce tactics against them.
>>264923
Why do idiots Constanstly bring up Rome or the Incas as an example of communism? It's nauseatingly stupid.
The Incas had a fucking divine emperor who collected the tax in the form of labor that he personally allocated. There was no say by his subjects in how they would be used, just that they would. There was a strict hierchy of social classes. They were as communist as Nazi Germany was democratic.
>>265322
I've heard this before but do you happen to know offhand what the evidence for it is? I doubt we found road bricks.
>>265361
because we find items from across the contient all over, not to mention settlements along set trade routes and "hubs" with goods from all over.
the Pueblo civilization was basically built upon being a massive trade hub and controlling the water supply of the region which traders obviously relied on.
>>262423
>Professor says something
>Doubts them and instead seeks truth from people with no training in history and shitposters.
Never change.
>>265381
this is true, and Diaz notes this pretty spectacularly where even a dozen or so wounded horses make a huge difference in the battle.
>>265442
It probably varied pretty widely. There are supposedly account of the Spanish troops trading their heavy steel armor for lighter padded armor, due to maneuverability. One also has to assume that it was probably pretty hot in the middle of the Jungle, providing further incentives to ditch as much armor as possible.
Other than that though im not sure, as sources that ive found in the past say anything from full plate to padded.
>>265442
mostly heavy cotton and tight knitted wool coats + leather maybe.
some would have had steel armour in varying amounts, obviously the wealthy would have full suits as Cortes himself did.
really though the heavy woolen coat was more than sufficient armour and incredibly effective.
pic related, its called a Gambeson
>>265528
Well they were light cavalry so I doubt full plate was the type of thing they brought. I heard about the armor thing before and I reckon it could've been that it was rusting.
Wouldn't want to go up against them anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7puzWJjwuU
>>265585
Cortes only had a total of 16 horses, so while they may or may not have been wearing full plate, the cavalry only make up a small portion of his forces and therefore its still possible that some on foot were wearing heavier armour.
As for rust, I dunno, armor could be passed on through generations. I dont think it was too susceptible to rust.
>>265624
>therefore its still possible that some on foot were wearing heavier armour.
In contemporary European armies the infantry opted for lighter armor than the cavalry.
>I dont think it was too susceptible to rust.
Depends on how well it's cared for, in a high humidity area steel can start rusting in weeks.
>>265144
Aleixo García 1524.
But I read the story wrong. They attacked some Inca outposts in Bolivia, loot some cities only to be murdered by the Guaraní who told them about the empire.
Wayna Qhapaq was alive then so they knew about these people in advanced.
>>265641
My point was that the Americas were a different situation altogether. The fact that Cortes' band only had 16 horses total does not negate the fact that there were probably more wealthy persons than that. Ergo, they still wouldve been able to afford better equipment than the average joe.
>>265530
actually most spaniards adopted the aztecs armor
it was similar to a gambeson in the sens that it was a quilted cotton vest (pretty much a gambeson) but the key difference is that they soaked the armor in salt water and then they dried it
this would make the salt crystallise in the fabric making it more resistant to arrows and blunt force trauma
it would protect better against arrows then mail and in some cases even plate because it hade the same characteristics as kevlar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichcahuipilli
pic related
it migth not look like much but it will stop a arrow
>>264941
Neat
>>265764
Source on stopping arrows?
I find that hard to believe.
Also, Atlatl stepping in, because fuck armor regardless
>>265530
That helmet is hella stylish
>>264941
when my sister was in Peru she took a tour of some of the roads
the guide said that what would have taken her and her friend 3 weeks to walk a incan messanger could have covered in 3 days
but thats mainly because the altitude
>>265764
well both were much thicker than they look, they were just sewn super tight so the layers within were pressed thin.
>>265794
looks like a salade maybe?
>>265833
That doesnt look anything like a salad
>>265790
just google Ichcahuipilli stopping arrows
see how many sources you find that say it can stop a arrow and how many that say it cant
but as far as i can understand it was a bunch of the conquistadors that said that it could stop arrows and that it was so good that they actually adopted it
also if you hade never heard of kevlar you would have a hard time beliving this could stop a bullet to
rember that this armor worked on the same principles as kevlar it would gradually slow and trap the arrow
>Atlatl stepping in
not to rain on your parade but it could supposedly stop a atlatl to
>>265528
>One also has to assume that it was probably pretty hot in the middle of the Jungle,
Pic related is the humid Aztec jungle.
>Macuahuitl, a cricket bat covered in obsidian blades used by the Aztecs
Did anything ever dug up in Afro-Eurasia in any way resemble the Macuahuitl or did they skip from stone tipped spears to bronze?
>>265944
seriously i know you are trying to make a point and all
but you cant post a picture of non humid jungle and say its humid jungle since the aztecs hade territory in the jungles so his point is still fucking valid
>>265973
wood and rocks dont tend to leave as good relics as metal
>>265029
Yes you fucking can
>>265995
>the aztecs hade territory in the jungles
They controlled jungle territory in the south. During the Campaign of Cortes the Spanish spent most of their time in temperate regions and they adopted the cotton armor when they arrived to the massive warehouses of Tenochtitlan.
>>262423
>Is this true
yes their success as a regime was based on an agricultural society with well developed farming irrigation methods
then several years of droughts caused major crop losses starvation riots wars because now there were too many people and not enough food
>>266071
> During the Campaign of Cortes
so just because cortes spent alot of time in temperate regions does that make his statement any less valid?
also temperate regions can still get pretty damn hot in the summer/late spring/early fall
>>266000
Finding several groupings of 20-30 obsidian flakes in multiple locations would suggest the 20-30 flakes were used together for some purpose.
>>265973
I believe these are some early bronze age weapons found in Germany.
>>266126
I'm a biology guy who's just here to enjoy reading /hist/ stuff, so here's what I can contribute.
>>262423
>rumors of Amazon rainforest being manmade
That is absolutely ludicrous. The forest in the Amazon basin is several million years old, dating back to just after South America lost its interior freshwater sea. It's right in the tropical belt with high rainfall, so there's naturally a shit-ton of plants.
>>265944
>>265995
Aztecs did have territory in lowland forested areas, but the core of their empire was high elevation desert scrub and mountain forest. Armor weight sucks to begin with and I imagine elevation made it infinity times worse.
>>266151
>rumors of Amazon rainforest being manmade
We wuz terraformers.
>>266110
unless im wrong obsidian aint that common in euro-asia and finding 20-30 rocks in the same place you can do any where
mabey when you find a bunch of arrow heads in the same place it was actually for a Macuahuitl type weapon
>>265973
You see, in Afro-eurasia, they had these things called "Swords."
Basically in the stone age, you just had clubs, spears, bows, axes & knives. Then these became metal. Then some of the cunts thought "hey what if our knives were longer?" and the sword was born.
>>266157
We wuz kingz and shiiet
We wuz terraformers
We wuz everything !
>>265833
you mean 'Sallet'
>>264870
The Ancient Aliens idea IS bunk, but it's ridiculous to think that in all the universe other species don't exist. They just haven't come to Earth is all.
>>266176
Flint flakes then. IDK.
>>266238
>We wuz everything !
Does that refer to Europeans?
>>266258
the number of factors involved in the existance of life is ridiculously vast, but acceptable.
civilizations? at an hypothetical extreme level of development above us? not looking so good.
>>266107
>does that make his statement any less valid?
Where am I saying his whole statement is invalid?
I am pointing the climate where the Aztecs lived you dense motherfucker.
>>266258
>The Ancient Aliens idea IS bunk
It's not
>>264941
I posted the wrong pic, duh. The previous one is an aqueduct, this is the Incan Road.
>>265812
The altitude really is taxing like that. However, one thing that helped is that a single runner wouldn't run three days, they passed the message on at each few kilometers, forget how much exactly.
>>266151
>>266157
Rumors? I know about it for three years already, and I'm not even a biologist. Mind you, it's not the whole florest, but a good chunk of river margins.
(Se você consegue ler português, eu posso postar reportagens de 2012, 2013 e 2014.)
>>265686
While I'm sure that some wealthy men participated on this feats, most of them were probably pretty poor. That was the point, to go to the New World to get cash by fighting instead of working (which was seen as unoble and vile).
>>266721
It is. If you mention aliens it automatically means you know next to nothing about archaeology, anthropology, art history, and so forth.
>>266258
That's why he said "in any relevant form."
>>262423
>Amazon
>Biggest rainforest in the world
>Man made
No fucking way at all anon
>>264759
Aztecs had the advantage over Spaniards in hand to hand combat. The first battles with Spaniards natives got wrecked by theit swords, but after they caught on the Spaniards purposely avoided hand to hand combat because the natives got too good at it.
[/spoiler]Some natives even fought no-hands combat.[/endspoiler]
>club with unusually sharp and planed glass embedded in it
>literally the pinnacle of sword metallurgy before they became more or less obsolete
>>269780
They supposedly could chop the fucking head of a horse in one blow. Pretty impressive desu senpai.
>>267587
https://youtu.be/Xw9lTB0hTNU
>>266200
Mexico is deficient in iron so obsidian was a more logical choice. Sharper than steel, but more brittle, although that could be compensated for with proper fitting of the "blades". Most aztec weapons were designed to paralyze and capture for sacrifice anyway, not kill.
>>266277
>civilizations? at an hypothetical extreme level of development above us? not looking so good.
There's really no way to say this. We can't gauge how common life is throughout the universe based on our solar system, what alternative forms of biochemistry might exist, how popular "intelligence" would be as an adaptation in alien environments, or if they might try and engineer intelligent life elsewhere. I agree the ancient aliens theory and "UFOlogy" is crap but saying civilized aliens are unlikely to exist is really baseless speculation.
>>269780
>metallurgy
>>266799
What those reports are referring to is how in places where indigenous villages existed for a few generations, the piles of waste they built up would change the soil composition a little. There would also be more fruit trees because of discarded seeds.
There's a lot of problems with trying to claim that effect is a major shaper of riverside forests. Here's some of the bigger ones:
1. Villages were relatively tiny and scattered over a tremendously vast area.
2. The difference in water level between seasons is huge--in the wet season the river dolphins can go way back into the forest--so whatever effect those people had on the riverside forests was absolutely dwarfed by what the rivers themselves did.
3. Fruit-eating birds in the Amazon treat the airspace along rivers like highways, so the seeds they crap out in their daily trips probably has a bigger effect than the seeds dumped in one place by natives.
>>271895
Nope man, vai ter que tentar melhor:
The influence of human alteration has been generally underestimated, reports Darna L. Dufour: "Much of what has been considered natural forest in Amazonia is probably the result of hundreds of years of human use and management." "Use of Tropical Rainforests by Native Amazonians," BioScience 40, no. 9 (October 1990):658. For an example of how such peoples integrated planting into their nomadic lifestyles, see Rival, Laura, 1993. "The Growth of Family Trees: Understanding Huaorani Perceptions of the Forest," Man 28(4):635–652.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuhikugu
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lost-amazon-cities/
http://www.mamiraua.org.br/pt-br/comunicacao/noticias/2014/7/3/mesa-redonda-debate-a-terra-preta-de-indio/
http://www2.uol.com.br/sciam/reportagens/as_cidades_perdidas_da_amazonia.html
Welcome to paradigm shift, at least for you.
1.That changed, pic related.
2.Tell me something new, that was used to create fish ponds. The black soil, defined by ashes, pottery and human waste is still there today, despite the annual floods. Your argument works just as well to point that there could have been even more human populations whose traces are gone now.
3.That doesn't work with tapiocas, which are tubers and a main crop even nowadays. Plus, birds don't crap ashes and pottery shards.
>>273791
Translation of picture?
>>275852
>>265122
You got it wrong.
The Amazon rainforest is not manmade; people just tend to have preconceptions about the rainforest as being essentially unpopulated aside from a few dozen hunter-gatherer tribes (I blame anthropological documentaries). Thus, whenever someone points out that the region has had sizable settlements in the past, and that these settlers were able to practice agriculture and land-management near their locales, it suddenly becomes "all of the Amazon is manmade."
The fact is that the Amazon has always been sparsely populated relative to much of the rest of the world (because it's a fucking jungle), and the vast majority of it has, until recent history, been essentially free from human-impact. But people have been practicing agriculture on the fringes of this rainforest for ages, and that practice typically means swathes of trees will be felled, underbrush cleared, and new flora planted, all of which change the nature of the region even long after people move on and the forest grows back.
Early European explorers didn't see anything but rainforest because they were encountering new biomes for the first time, and didn't have the background to be able to compare segments of the rainforest. There's also the fact that they were entering a land that was essentially post-apocalyptic and didn't have large populations due to European pandemics and overturning of trade routes.
>>266003
No you fucking can't.
