How accurate is Guns, Germs and Steel?
It's fairly accurate, but remember its simply an attempt to explain how and why Europeans had several significant advantages over the rest of the world. I am sure that there are some parts of it that might contain some factual inaccuracies however I think that the majority of objections to this book are ideological and are mostly espoused by /pol/tards.
It's Eurocentric garbage.
Never read it but I get the idea and I don't think the idea is too far off. Europe did have some advantages over other areas of the world.
>>24124
Weeeeeeelp
This thread was due to come sooner or later.
Its outdated hardly discussed anymore in any serious academia
>>24262
it's about why european countries succeeded and expanded, of course it's eurocentric
A lot of people who haven't read the book hate it, that should tell you a lot.
This'll be a fun thread though.
>>24262
Right on brotha, we need more Afrocentric threads up right now
>>24124
popscience tier
>>24124
>>24124
Very, people who question it are almost always racists.
> there are people who actually think this way
essential redditcore
>>24124
It spawned an interesting thought exercise:
http://www.worlddreambank.org/J/JAREDIA.HTM
In terms of scholarship, academic rigor, it is rather poor. Like schoolboy level poor at times, literally ignoring evidence that is contrary to the author's argument, that kind of stuff.
>>24124
why don't you give us the talking points and we'll tell you how accurate we think it is instead of a one-liner as an OP?
>>24347
Such as? Care to provide a single scrimplet of an example?
>>24462
Stale copypasta and it doesn't prove anything.
>>24531
Such as? Care to provide a single scrimplet of an example?
>>24531
Then I assume you can refute the points exposed in the pic, right?
>>24317
As someone who has actually read this book the person who posted this obviously only has a cursory knowledge in the books main talking points.
For example the poster talks about domesticatable animals and it says that Australia and the Americas almost hunted their animals to extinction however there were not domesticatable animals in the Americas or Australia. Certainly not cows, pigs, horses and camels that allowed the west and near East to flourish. Similarly the Author of Guns, Germs and Steel also discusses in length how Zebras are near impossible to tame compared to horses and South Africans havent succeeded in properly taming them despite numerous attempts since colonization.
>>24670
I have to cook dinner but I quickly refuted one. Am on phone.
That picture doesn't really pick apart the central theme and argument for the book and other arguments are equally as flawed as the one I outlined.
If you have any other legitimate criticisms I'm happy to hear them.
>>24124
It's great. It's only a partial explanation, though. Diamond, among others, praised Why Nations Fail by Acemoglu and Robinson.
I recommend checking that out too.
>>24195
>>24267
>I think that the majority of objections to this book are ideological and are mostly espoused by /pol/tards.
Considering it's been debunked by multiple --actual-- historians, geneticists, and economists, /pol/ is right on this one.
It's weird you would lump people on a simple free-speech political board into a single ideology, though.
>>24386
For example in the part about the Spanish conquest of the southern Americas he outright ignores the city states that held until 1700 or the parts of the empire that broke away and regained independence for decades after the initial conquest. Also in the epilogue (or in the prologue? I forgot) he writes there was an "irrevocably westward" shift in where the powerful empires were located (from the initial ones in the near east area) after the 4th century BC. Were the Seljuqs not powerful? China? Caliphates? Ottomans? Sassanids?
Like I said he's just cherrypicking. He picks three events which do support his conclusion - this is what he does, he does not seem to arrive at a conclusion by examination, he has a conclusion and tries to build support for it - and simply does not address the seven others that do not conform.
>>24703
>however there were not domesticatable animals in the Americas or Australia
That seems speculative since it's impossible to say if the majority of Australian megafauna would have been domesticatable since it's all extinct. It's entirely possible that giant wombats would have made good livestock.
>>24531
>Stale copypasta and it doesn't prove anything.
Stale statement that doesn't prove anything.
About the book :
> "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
>>24262
The author first reached a prejudiced conclusion then tried to "prove" it.
Confirmation bias at its finest.
>How accurate is Guns, Germs and Steel?
It explains the historical concept of environmental determinisim, which isn't a new concept but has fallen out of favor.
If you care about accuracy, look at environmental determinisim, as a whole and skip the lightweight shit.
>>24318
Hilariously, one reason why environmental determinisim fell out of favor was because it was thought to be racist.
>>24775
His work "Colapse", is better. Less agressive conjectures, which means less texas gunslinging.
>>24847
Such as? Care to provide a single scrimplet of an example?
Geographic determinism is bollocks, don't take this book seriously.
Lots of overall views but the author lacks in depth knowledge on others.
Never read the book but this seems to be the common consensus of everyone I know who's read it.
The real reason is probably European proximity and competition.
>>24703
What about gazelle (of all species) in Africa and caribou and bufallo in North America?
>>24989
>The real reason is probably European proximity and competition.
How do you explain east Asia then?
>>24938
>le single scrimplet meme
Trying to understand history with current knowledge is doomed to fail. You could argue forever which was the decisive factor to European hegemony (mind you, only post 16th century). Some think it was the fact Europeans were so barbaric they only could war each other which lead to never stopping arms race between small states, which would eventually give them tools to control large areas with few men.
Some say it is the European greediness which led to trade and them completely dominating flow of goods and ideas, making them literally kings of the world.
Just like how Rome didn't collapse on any single part, but sum of them all.
>>24703
Strangely, that cursory knowledge is still far superior to Jared Diamond's
>>24124
Honestly I think the core idea of the book - that the geography of Europe/Eurasia lead to those cultures developing faster than other parts of the world and then "dominating" the globe - isn't wrong.
But Diamond just goes about proving his idea in an awful way that doesn't satisfy most Historian's standards.
>>24336
That whole website is pretty interesting, aside from the furfaggotry that gets shoehorned into all his worlds.
>>25257
It's interesting what you say about causes for European hegemony being "barbarism" and "greediness" because a /pol/tard (I know I'm strawmanning a bit here) would likely say exactly the same thing, except instead of "greediness" he'd say the "entrepeneurism" of Europeans lead to their dominance of the world economy.
Interesting how the same ideas can be twisted that way, and shows you how we need to seek deeper roots to the traits we often assign to races and cultures.
Diamond is a faggot trying to push an agenda. Fuck him and fuck his book.
The biggest criticism I have is the author cannot be consistent across his books.
He goes from saying agriculture was man's great mistake, then says agriculture is what advances civilizations and that luck is how you come out on top, and then says societies only choose to fall.
Can only excel by luck but only fail by choice.
I don't think he knows what he is trying to argue.
>>24337
Then you should use good history.
>>24787
> /pol/ is right on this one
Incorrect.
None of the refutations have been supportive of the /pol/ idealogy - that all nonwhite groups are inferior due to some combination of genetics and culture.
The biggest criticism is that Diamond simplifies many topics to create a broad overall pattern to justify the main theme of the book.
>>25493
I generally try to avoid giving terms positive or negative connotations, as it usually derails the discussion on those words instead of the subject...
And I didn't mean anything bad with greediness (after all, greed is good) or barbarism, but that's how it looked like when compared to example China, which was a super power in the 13-15th century while Europe was just about to start conquering the world.
Also China pretty much closing to the rest of the world might be luck on Europeans side as it removed one really big and wealth opponent.
Historically it seems large empires usually succumb to being slow and unagile, while small nations could recover fast and adopt new ideas eventually outlasting the old empires, and then becoming a vast empire themselves, just to continue the cycle.
>>25690
But you have to make huge generalizations to make a general account of why it happened. We are talking about thousands of years of human history and taking in and using knowledge from across several disparate disciplines.
"Wealth and poverty of nations" by David Landes is better I feel.
I know a lot of people think it's shit, but I would recommend reading reading once. He considers a wide group of factors, something Diamond forgets to do.
>>24124
It's not that good.
No I'm not /pol/, it's just that Diamond isn't a historian and it really shows, *Ecological Imperialism* is the recommended text on the topic if you're willing to put up with the slightly dry writing.
>>25690
>/pol/ is a single person and your post is in any way indicative of many /pol/acks
>However, Diamond’s own words suggest that he subscribes to a double standard. In an article that appeared in the popular Natural History in 1993, Diamond discussed the genetic studies on how Jews differ from non-Jews. He made this eye-opening statement: “There are also practical reasons for interest in Jewish genes. The state of Israel has been going to much expense to support immigration and job retraining of Jews who were persecuted minorities in other countries. That immediately poses the problem of defining who is a Jew. For example, a debate is going on right now [November 1993] in Israel concerning policy toward Ethiopia’s remaining would-be immigrants who identify themselves as Jews. Are they descendants of ancient Jews, as they maintain, or are they descendants of converted Africans, as their physical appearance might suggest?”
>Races don't exist
>Except for Jews and non-Jews
top kek.
amazing how dumb you shitlibs are.
Some of the stuff is bullshit, he claims Europe had "convoluted coastlines which make it easier for dissidents to hide out in" for example.
However, there's nothing wrong with discussing geographical determinism provided you understand that geographical isolation is what contributes to divergent evolution. In other words, different races evolved in different parts of the world, and this creates positive feedback loops for different traits and different rates of selection pressure.
>>26717
>Some of the stuff is bullshit, he claims Europe had "convoluted coastlines which make it easier for dissidents to hide out in" for example.
This, not like east Asia is not convoluted or didn't have the rather famous Wokou pirates.
>>26793
There's some good stuff there about how what Diamond has said in the past about Jews doesn't square up with his "race doesn't exist/genes don't exist" rhetoric today.
Seems like he's just doing the old Jewish trick of tribalism for me, multiculturalism for thee.
Basically entirely bullshit.
The one point Diamond does get right is that a lack of antibodies to foreign pathogens devastated Amerindians more than combat ever did.
>>25690
Such as? Care to provide a single scrimplet of an example?
>>26828
Zebras aren't domesticated animals mate, might as well put a picture of a lion jumping through a fire ring.
>>25690
>/pol/ idealogy - that all nonwhite groups are inferior due to some combination of genetics and culture
Hey Mr. Strawman, /pol/ likes East Asian intelligence.
Except for China, as cheating is out of control in that nation.
Diamond says Africa didn't have any domesticable mammals, but what about ostriches?
Moreover, you can't really say whether or not Africa had domesticable mammals since the horse was first domesticated like... twenty thousand years ago, back when it was a completely different type of sub-species to what we have now. At that same time, Africa also had equine species that could have been domesticated but they were hunted to extinction for the most part.
>>26854
Lions to zebras is a false equivalence, I hope you thought of that before shitposting.
People thought auruchs couldn't be domesticated and now we have cows.
Foxes have joined the ranks of housepets.
You dominate and bread most anything but apex predators the right way and you'll get a domesticated species.
>>26859
Really? in my experience they tend to get defensive and start pulling some fucking Olympic level mental gymnastics.
I had one guy tell me straight up that East Asians only scored better than whites in IQ tests and school exams because of sociology-cultural reasons, like two posts after a giant rant about how blacks are just inherently stupid.
Fucking moron.
>>26889
Water buffalo is the absolute refutation of this point. Southeast Asians managed to do it with a species not all that distinct from the African variety.
I'd argue Zebras could be done if anyone truly bothered to selectively breed them.
>>26914
Some of them get defensive, yeah. But for the most part IQ is only brought up since it's a foundational pillar of liberalism that everyone is equal and that inequalities of outcome must be down to environmental factors. Beyond diosproving that I don't think it's hugely necessary to obsess over.
>>26914
Well, /pol/ also isn't one person as I'd imagine your homeboard isn't either.
Generally people buy that east Asians are even smarter than whites over there, because that is the meme based on right shifted US samples.
Basically, what you see is that Japanese/South Koreans dominate their respective pool at IQ 106 while ethnic Germanics follow at IQ 105.
>>26906
Zebras are still undomesticated animals.
>>26984
>Germanics follow at IQ 105.
Not really, they're more at 100, like most of Europe excluding the Balkans south of Croatia. The Finns top the European scale.
>>26984
>Well, /pol/ also isn't one person as I'd imagine your homeboard isn't either.
Man people love to bring this up when they're being criticized but it's all crickets when someone defends them by saying something like
>Hey Mr. Strawman, /pol/ likes East Asian intelligence.
>>26999
Right, because no one has bothered to do it to an extent that would be satisfactory for classification.
The pictures of zebras functioning similar to horses is meant to show it could be done and are also cool pictures.
The focus on "muh no domestication" should really be on water buffalo though, as again they exist in SE Asia and Africa and the SE Asians managed to do it.
The definition for what can be domesticated is fucking retarded anyway. Do people really think auruchs and wolves had "calm and good dispositions" before generations of selective breeding killed off the ones that didn't?
You can get half-wolf dogs that are fucking madmen. Does that mean dogs could've never been domesticated because those are cunts?
>>24992
Not all animals can be domesticated with the same success.
>>27016
Yeah nah, Germany has a substantial immigrant population. I'm saying you control for white ethnic Germanics and its 105.
https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/05/18/who-are-the-smartest-white-europeans/
There is a guy who writes for Unz who does a better job with it, trying to find that.
>>27067
Well hey faggot, why don't you go make a thread over there and prove me wrong?
Thankfully as a civilized board we have IDs so you'll know I can't shill more than once to skew the result ;^).
>>27144
>https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/05/18/who-are-the-smartest-white-europeans/
Nice source bro
>>25257
Lol, you're an idiot if you think that modern knowlege does not help understanding history. Fucking Luddite.
>>27086
There have been experiments where you can domesticate foxes into dogs in just 8 generations. Different animals have different ratio of success. And until someone manages to do this with zebras your argument is invalid.
>>27144
>Yeah nah, Germany has a substantial immigrant population. I'm saying you control for white ethnic Germanics and its 105.
Great, your source is a fucking wordpress blog, and even if correct it disproves your original claim of "ethnic Germanics" having the highest IQ, congratulations. Nevermind that Germany is not the only country in Europe with a substantial immigrant population.
>>25493
He's not a historian and its not a history book, he never set out to adhere to the standards of historians. It's a book that is ultimately for laymen and not for students of history.
>>27177
>And until someone manages to do this with zebras your argument is invalid.
Why are you completely ignoring his point about water buffalo, or the other anon's point about ostriches?
>>27205
God don't even bother with that fuckwit.
>>27163
Here is the other I was looking for:
http://akarlin.com/2012/08/analysis-of-chinas-pisa-2009-results/
These are derived from PISA scores. If you're really interested in the raw data, go ahead and look up the 2009 PISA results.
>>27214
Water buffalo and ostriches simply could never fulfil the same utility as a fucking horse or a camel.
>>27214
I'm talking about zebras, not about buffalos.
>>27205
Here
Via:
http://akarlin.com/2012/05/berlin-gets-bad-news-from-pisa/
By way of:
http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/international/ide/
>>27329
Finland in 3rd place, like I originally claimed. Again your theory of "ethnic Germanics" (which don't exist, as Germanics are a linguistic group just like Slavs and Romance speakers) being on top.
In short, BTFO by your own "sources"
>>27221
>Fuckwit
>Can't do anything but whine line a bitch
Whose wits are fucked mate?
>>27246
You're a goddamn retard, be sure to (You) me so I can continue to prove you wrong.
Pic related.
>>27518
>Finland
>White
I sure hope you guys don't do this. Uralic is a whole different story in the geneflow profile.
Not saying you guys aren't cool though.
>muh Germans can't be an ethnicity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans
Read a book sometime, OK?
>>27589
>I sure hope you guys don't do this. Uralic is a whole different story in the geneflow profile.
Not saying you guys aren't cool though.
I'm not Finish, and they're white Europeans.
>Germans
>the same as Germanics
You're a confirmed retard.
>>27589
Are we conflating language and genetic heritage here?
Also you need to take that whiteness bullshit to another board.
>>27609
>muh semantics
I'd meant to link the Germanic peoples subset of that article.
If you want to be an obtuse quibbling bitch thats your thing, whatever gets you through the day friend.
And no, Finns are not 'white Europeans'. They're Eurasian or Uralic predominantly.
>>27655
>>27655
This is also meant for you, I suppose!
>muh semantics
I'd meant to link the Germanic peoples subset of that article.
If you want to be an obtuse quibbling bitch thats your thing, whatever gets you through the day friend.
Also you need to take that whiteness bullshit to another board.
An anon inquired on racial disparities in intelligence and I thought I'd give him some info, sorry you're triggered friend.
I wonder how much chance affects the initial domestication process.
Like how affectionate a wild animal has to be to begin with so that a hunter-gatherer decides to try to tame it instead of just kill it right on the spot.
Assumes all people are genetically equal, intelligence wise. Is therefore garbage.
>>27750
They're not semantics you idiot. Germans are not the same as Germanics because an English speaking autist says so. They're only called Germans in the English language and a few more, they call themselves Deutsche and call Germanics "Germanen". Two different things.
>And no, Finns are not 'white Europeans'. They're Eurasian or Uralic predominantly.
And no, Europeans aren't white Europeans, they're predominantly Asians from the middle east, persia and India.
>what are indo-europeans
Pic related is the oldest haplogroup in Europe. The rest came with indo-europeans from outside Europe.
>>27833
Well with doges they were highly social creatures to begin with, hence the ability to read cues and respond.
Horses are somewhat similar; mammalian groups that are pack animals and non-apex predators are all good candidates.
Really though, the most important thing is you slaughter any animal with a sign of ferality until you select for the meek enough that you end up with enough genetic distance to qualify as a subspecies.
>>27518
Actually, native Germans without immigrant background do have PISA scores on par with Japan.
>>27872
Its entirely semantics. You know what my intent was and are trying to capitalize on the fact I didn't add the peoples suffix so you can be a smug cunt about what was a mutually understood inference of a racial group.
I would think as a 'race doesn't real' advocate you'd acknowledge that Haplogroup I comes from somewhere else and isn't European, as well ;^)
>>27890
This board really needs IDs, if not flags.
Either way the acknowledgment from whoever this is is appreciated.
>>27833
Modern ethology would suggest that quite a few animals sort of tamed themselves. >>27879 already mentioned dogs. Their most important difference compared to wolves is flight distance, meaning how close they let humans approach before they bolt. This is moderated by the adrenal glands and is highly hereditary. Basically there was a combination of natural and artificial selection where nature selects for the animals that are docile enough to spend time scrounging human refuse despite their proximity, then artificial selection among that population.
Cats are very similar. Early granaries were full of fat rodents and there was a massive evolutionary advantage for an otherwise reclusive cat to spend time close to humans. Once this semi-tame population emerged, humans took over the domestication part.
>>27890
>actually I have no source to back up anything of what I said
>also, Germany is the only country with immigrants
>>27935
>muh semantics
There's no semantics at all, you're just wrong, that simple.
>You know what my intent was and are trying to capitalize on the fact I didn't add the peoples suffix so you can be a smug cunt about what was a mutually understood inference of a racial group.
You're an idiot who asserted a claim that was false and all of a sudden Germanics morphed in to Germans. Furthermore Germanics are not a fucking racial group but a linguistic group.
>I would think as a 'race doesn't real' advocate you'd acknowledge that Haplogroup I comes from somewhere else and isn't European, as well ;^)
And then you resort to straw man's. Haplogroup comes from Europe, retard, IJ=/=I, it mutated in Europe.
>>27970
Sorry, but what I said is a fact
>>28043
http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-volume-II.pdf
Page 230.
When one excludes first generation migrants, the German score jumps from 514 to 528. Yet this only includes first generation migrants or migrants without passports ("Auslaender"). This group makes up 13.1% of the student population. The total student population with Migrationshintergrund is about twice that, so we should add on another 10 points or so, giving an approximation of 535-540 - putting native Germans on par with Japanese.
>>28043
Re I:
t is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ sometime between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago.
Re R1b1:
Haplogroup R* originated in North Asia just before the Last Glacial Maximum (26,500-19,000 years ago).
The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia.
So your inference is the location of mutation for a specific subclade is what defines European?
>>28131
Sorry, but what you said is entirely bullshit
"They admit evolution. They admit that animals vary by breed and that you can breed better and worse animals. Now, how is it that there is a certain dividing line when you come to one particular animal called man? They have no explanation; time and again when I've asked them they have no explanation. They just say, 'if it's got two legs and it stands on its hind feet then it becomes a special being and there is absolute equality. They're all the same.' Man is an animal just like all the rest of the animals. He's more intelligent, but he must obey nature's laws."
In a words, there's at least some of a genetic component to all of this and modern thought is too clouded my the fantasy of equality to ever take this into consideration. As for the book itself, I still think it has a few good points, though it glosses over some vital ones IMO.
>>28255
I argue Germans = Japanese in IQ
You argue the same
???
I'm a geography student but I am yet to read this book. It is interesting to note that within geography there is a large variety of interpretations when it comes to the relation between man and nature. You have those who were apply deterministic view in the approach of nature-human relations. This means that the fate of civilizations is pre-set due to environment. But there are also geographers who thought that human-nature relations were (partially) based on voluntarism. As in, they were free to choose their way of living and create their own fate despite natural circumstances. From what I’ve seen so far, Diamond in this sense, has a very deterministic viewpoint.
>>28188
Nice "proof", pic related, page 230
>>28188
>So your inference is the location of mutation for a specific subclade is what defines European?
I is the only native haplogroup to Europe.
>>28304
You're implying it is entirely unique to the region. It merely mutated from its progenitor there, making it hardly "native".
You're also ignoring the substantial Haplogroup N population in Finland.
>>28303
Sorry if my English isn't on point. I hope it's understandable.
The quick and dirty answer is that modern historians and anthropologists are quite critical of, if not borderline/outright hostile to, Guns, Germs, and Steel. Put bluntly, historians and anthropologists believe Diamond plays fast and loose with history by generalizing highly complex topics to provide an ecological/geographical determinist view of human history that, in the end, paradoxically supports the very racism/Eurocentricism he is attempting to argue against. There is a reason historians avoid grand theories of human history: those "just so stories" don't adequately explain human history.
Given our natural tendency to avoid speaking with authority on topics outside our expertise, academic analysis of GG&S is somewhat wanting. To work around this issue, /u/snickeringshadow and I constructed several point by point refutations in another history-related community. I will quote a bit from both analyses because they illustrate many of the critical issues permeating GG&S, though I'll just discuss three of the issues.
>>28304
Thats not page 230, dumbass.
Pic related is, and it proves exactly what I say.
>>28360
First, Diamond notoriously cherry-picks data that supports his hypothesis while ignoring the complexity of the issues.
In his chapter "Lethal Gift of Livestock" on the origin of human crowd infections he picks 5 pathogens that best support his idea of domestic origins. However, when I dived into the genetic and historic data, only two pathogens (maybe influenza and most likely measles) on his hand-picked All Star team could possibly have jumped to humans through domestication. The majority were already a part of the human disease load before the origin of agriculture, domestication, and sedentary population centers. Diamond ignored the evidence that didn't support his theory to explain conquest via disease spread to immunologically naive Native Americas.
Also, he cherry-picks history when discussing the conquest of the Inka...
Pizarro's military advantages lay in the Spaniards' steel swords and other weapons, steel armor, guns, and horses... Such imbalances of equipment were decisive in innumerable other confrontations of Europeans with Native Americans and other peoples. The sole Native Americans able to resist European conquest for many centuries were those tribes that reduced the military disparity by acquiring and mastering both guns and horses.
>>28369
This is just patently false. Conquest was not a simple matter of conquering a people, raising a Spanish flag, and calling "game over." Conquest was a constant process of negotiation, accommodation, and rebellion played out through the ebbs and flows of power over the course of centuries. Some Yucatan Maya city-states maintained independence for two hundred years after contact, were "conquered", and then immediately rebelled again. The Pueblos along the Rio Grande revolted in 1680, dislodged the Spanish for a decade, and instigated unrest that threatened the survival of the entire northern edge of the empire for decades to come. Technological "advantage", in this case guns and steel, did not automatically equate to battlefield success in the face of resistance, rough terrain and vastly superior numbers. The story was far more nuanced, and conquest was never a cut and dry issue, but Diamond doesn't mention that complexity. The Inka were conquered when Pizarro says they were conquered, and technology reigns supreme in Diamond's narrative.
This brings us to a second issue: Diamond uncritically examines the historical record surrounding conquest.
Pizarro, Cortez and other conquistadores were biased authors who wrote for the sole purpose of supporting/justifying their claim on the territory, riches and peoples they subdued. To do so they elaborated their own sufferings, bravery, and outstanding deeds, while minimizing the work of native allies, pure dumb luck, and good timing. If you only read their accounts, like Diamond seems to do, you walk away thinking a handful of adventurers conquered an empire thanks to guns and steel and a smattering of germs. No historian in the last half century would be so naive to argue this generalized view of conquest, but European technological supremacy is one keystone to Diamond's thesis so he presents conquest at the hands of a handful of adventurers.
>>28384
Finally, though I do not believe this was his intent, the construction of the arguments for GG&S paints Native Americans specifically, and the colonized world-wide in general, as categorically inferior.
To believe the narrative you need to view Native Americans as fundamentally naive, unable to understand Spanish motivations and desires, unable react to new weapons/military tactics, unwilling to accommodate to a changing political landscape, incapable of mounting resistance once conquered, too stupid to invent the key technological advances used against them, and doomed to die because they failed to build cities, domesticate animals and thereby acquire infectious organisms. When viewed through this lens, I hope you can see why so many historians and anthropologists are livid that a popular writer is perpetuating a false interpretation of history while minimizing the agency of entire continents full of people.
Instead of GG&S try...
Restall Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest
Mann 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
MacQuarrie Last Days of the Inca
And if you would like to hear more about infectious disease spread after contact... Kelton Epidemics and Enslavement: Biological Catastrophe in the Native Southeast, 1492-1715
>>28453
/r/askhistorians copy n paste job
but that is fine as /r/askhistorians is a wonderful place of learning
inb4 ledit
>>28353
>You're implying it is entirely unique to the region. It merely mutated from its progenitor there, making it hardly "native".
It's native because it formed in Europe, that simple really.
>You're also ignoring the substantial Haplogroup N population in Finland.
Doesn't matter, just like R1a, R1b, etc are not native so is N not.
>>28364
1. You're focusing only on mathemathic
2. Finalnd still BTFO's you
3. You're still attempting to back paddle like a bitch from your fiasco of Germanics = Germans
4. What I posted is page 230, you link a PDF file that has it's own page count, not that of the book.
>>28516
>1. You're focusing only on mathemathic
No, PISA is only focussing on maths for that year because 2012 was a maths year. The values are all highly correlated though, science, mathematics, reading.
>2. Finalnd still BTFO's you
Can't you read? Non migrant Germans scored 528, non migrant Finns scored 523 on Maths. Damn, you're retarded.
>3. You're still attempting to back paddle like a bitch from your fiasco of Germanics = Germans
That wasn't me. I started posting recently. But he's right, the ethnicities which speak Germanic languages (including German) are generally superior.
>4. What I posted is page 230, you link a PDF file that has it's own page count, not that of the book.
Maybe you shouldn't be a fucking retard in the future.
>>28516
The progenitor of I is not European. I is merely a modification of a previous clade. How you think this represents an entirely new people is baffling.
Its like saying R1b1 and R1a1 are entirely unrelated.
Once again, you turn to semantics in an effort to be a smug cunt.
Now that we finally managed the retarded Germaboo. What do you guys think of a similar book: "Why The West Rules - For Now", by Ian Morris?
>>28628
>The book compares East and West across the last 15,000 years, arguing that physical geography rather than culture, religion, politics, genetics, or great men explains Western domination of the globe.
It sounds absolutely retarded but no doubt gullible psuedo intellectual retards like you will believe it.
>>28578
>No, PISA is only focussing on maths for that year because 2012 was a maths year. The values are all highly correlated though, science, mathematics, reading.
Which is false
>Can't you read? Non migrant Germans scored 528, non migrant Finns scored 523 on Maths. Damn, you're retarded.
Can you?
>Can't you read? Non migrant Germans scored 528, non migrant Finns scored 523 on Maths. Damn, you're retarded.
Except when they're not, then you cherry pick a particular germanic nation, right?
>Maybe you shouldn't be a fucking retard in the future.
Maybe you shouldn't, for fucks sake, you're not giving me a book, you're giving me a PDF
>>28613
>The progenitor of I is not European. I is merely a modification of a previous clade. How you think this represents an entirely new people is baffling.
It doesn't represent a new people but it is the ONLY native haplogroup to Europe.
>Once again, you turn to semantics in an effort to be a smug cunt.
The only one resorting to any kind of "semantics" is you from the get go.
You claim Finns are not white Europeans because you don't like their particular haplogroup originating from Europe, but it's okay when the particular haplogroup that you like doesn't originate from Europe but still makes people white.
>>24317
>there could be no serious question of a non-European army successfully resisting an attack by a European army
There's more to winning a battle than 'my men are stronger than your men'. The Mapuche held out for hundreds of years.
>epidemic disease only became a factor post-conquest
Pizzaro was able to conquer the Inka empire because it was in the middle of a civil war because the old king died from a European disease!
>>28578
Tag team destroying this man's life. Good looking out senpai.
>>28673
>Which is false
Untrue
>Can you?
Sigh, you really are an idiot. Pic related shows that non immigrant germans scored 528, while non immigrant finns scored 523.
>>28673
>M-muh native.
Because IJ turned into I in Europe does not mean "I IS LE ONLY EUROPEAN SUBTYPE".
Get a grip dude. Its a minor mutation that occurred there.. and you're still entirely ignoring haplogroup N in Finland, which is what this original conversation was all about!!
Given haplogroup N comes from ASIA or EAST AFRICA and is over 60% of the Finnish population, WHAT WE WERE ORIGINALLY DISCUSSING, why are you even trying to derail this with how a minor mutation for IJ occurred in Europe??
>The only one resorting to any kind of "semantics" is you from the get go.
Bruh. You've be hung up on the fact I didn't tack on "peoples" to native speakers of Germanic language this whole time. To infer that I'm playing semantics games is fucking laughable.
>>28660
Have you read the book?
>>28751
Non immigrant Finns include fucking Saami and Fenno-swedes, you dumb fucking retard. Substract the Swedish average and deduct the sammi %
>>28770
>"I IS LE ONLY EUROPEAN SUBTYPE
It literally is.
>Given haplogroup N comes from ASIA or EAST AFRICA and is over 60% of the Finnish population, WHAT WE WERE ORIGINALLY DISCUSSING, why are you even trying to derail this with how a minor mutation for IJ occurred in Europe??
Given the fact R1a and R1b also come from ASIA AND THE MIDDLE EAST, which is the entire point of you claiming Finns are not white, makes anyone carrying those haplogroups also not white.
>muh minor mutations
I'm not trying to derail anything, you're a fucking idiot who applies different standards to the same example.
>FINNS ARE NOT WHITE EUROPEANS BECAUSE THEY CARRY A NON EUROPEAN HAPLOGROUP
>EVERYONE ELSE IS A WHITE EUROPEAN BECAUSE THEY CARRY A NON EUROPEAN HAPLOGROUP
Makes no fucking sense you god damn idiot.
>Bruh. You've be hung up on the fact I didn't tack on "peoples" to native speakers of Germanic language this whole time. To infer that I'm playing semantics games is fucking laughable.
Top lel. Are you retarded and simply don't understand differences between ethnicity and language groups? You literally call semantics when you're fucking wrong, germans are not germanics, you fucking idiot there's no semantics there.
>>28913
>completely ignoring the fact your entire argument was based on Finns being "true Europeans, haplogroup I"
>not admitting the majority of Finns are fucking Asians (or even Africans!!) like I originally inferred
Top kek dude, way to shift the goalposts.
Meanwhile...
>Muh Sammis aren't true Finns, Swedes aren't truew Finns.
Take a look in the fucking mirror. I thought I and N are intertchangable for Finns and now you're saying you need to nitpick based on who comes from where???
Get a grip dude.
Germanic being an ethnicity or a language group, you've still been blown the fuck out of this argument and in PISA as a Finn.
>>28275
This is a good quote I quoted, really puts all of this into perspective!
GG&S is probably the most important book I've ever read. If there's any book that should be mandatory reading in schools that's it.
Ask me anything / flame away.
>>29053
Why bother I don't ask the village idiot what he thinks of the king unless I'm looking for a laugh
And I've baked all my keks for tonight
>>28990
>completely ignoring the fact your entire argument was based on Finns being "true Europeans, haplogroup I"
That was not my argument you retard, my argument is that if Finns are not European because they have a non-european haplogroup then it means that no one except I carriers are Europeans as it is the only fucking native European haplogroup.
>Top kek dude, way to shift the goalposts.
Straw maning this hard? There was no goalpost shifting. You're goalposts are constantly shifting though, Finns have non-eu haplog group = not white, other europeans have a non-eu haplogroup = magically white
>Muh Sammis aren't true Finns, Swedes aren't truew Finns.
They're not. Saami's are an ethnic minority and Swedes in Finland have their own political party (Swedish People's Party). Hard to have a Swedish people's party without the Swedes.
>Germanic being an ethnicity or a language group, you've still been blown the fuck out of this argument and in PISA as a Finn.
I'm not even Finnish you idiot, but your "argument" (top fucking lel) is fucking retarded.
>>29033
>So where do I find data for Saami and Fenno-Swedes?
You'll be hard pressed to do so. You can, however, take the Swedish average for the Fenno-Swedes. After all if your language (Germanic) determines the results they should stay consistent no matter the area they're present in.
>>29053
>pop science should be mandatory reading in schools
>>28990
Which Finns are you talking about? The population that lives within the modern borders of the country is not uniform in any meaningful way.
Besides, I doubt you'll learn that much about racial intelligence from PISA results. Country rankings chance a lot more quickly than would be biologically possible, so much of it is due to changes in the education systems. Western Finnish and Eastern Swedish populations are almost indistinguishable genetically, yet perform differently in studies like this.
>>29033
>No
So instead of reading the book and criticizing the actual points you decide to conjure some sweeping generalisations to continue your hatred for environmental determinism.
But unfortunately I am the gullible pseudo-intellectual.
>>29127
>shitpost for hours about how Scandinavians are le true Europeans, type I
>shown Finns are predominantly type N, further from European than even R*
>t-thats not what I meant at all
Top kek you fucking joker.
My originally assertion was Finns are more Asiatic than what is considered "European". N (Asian) predominance v. I(J) and R* (both Middle Eastern!!) probes me right.
>They're not. Saami's are an ethnic minority and Swedes in Finland have their own political party (Swedish People's Party). Hard to have a Swedish people's party without the Swedes.
But at the same time haplogroup N and I are both pure Finnish because you say so? OK senpai.
I'm not even Finnish you idiot, but your "argument" (top fucking lel) is fucking retarded.
The only thing thats a "fucking retarded" argument is your ability to switch from le all Scandinavians are true type I Europeans to "haplogroup doesn't matter politics does :DD"
Your inability to form a thesis and stick with it is fucking laughable
>>29306
>My originally assertion was Finns are more Asiatic than what is considered "European". N (Asian) predominance v. I(J) and R* (both Middle Eastern!!) probes me right.
Oh, now it's what you "consider" European.
>But at the same time haplogroup N and I are both pure Finnish because you say so? OK senpai.
I never said so, retard.
>The only thing thats a "fucking retarded" argument is your ability to switch from le all Scandinavians are true type I Europeans to "haplogroup doesn't matter politics does :DD"
>Your inability to form a thesis and stick with it is fucking laughable
I just think you have a sever case of mental retardations and are unable to follow a god damn argument, your reading comprehension is also lacking
If you claim that Finns are not white because they have non-european haplogroups, then apply the same to everyone, meaning R1a and R1b carriers are also not white as they have just as much non-european haplogroups.
In short, I feel pity for you.
>>29370
I've been to Helsinki for a while and I wonder what all the white people were, then. And where these non-White Finns are. Do they hire white actors to pose as locals in their capital?
>>29370
please just ignore the guy, it's probably some closeted nazi kraut american that's projecting his inferiority-complex.
>>29459
Yeah I know, I was agreeing with you.
The whole idea that Finns aren't white is just so surreal to me. Kind of like someone saying that Korea invented the samurai or something.
>>29504
just because you have white skin doesnt make you white
depending on the mood of /int/, the board will tell you Mediterraneans arent white
one drop rule and all that
>>29542
Sure, but then you've meandered so far from the common usage meaning of the word that it doesn't describe anything. You need to outline your definition of whiteness, then we can discuss.
Personally, I've always found the whole whiteness debate one of the most embarrassing parts of /int/ and /pol/, but whatever makes you happy I guess.
>>29542
That means only Balts, Poles ans Belorussians are white. As Germanic people have an elevated east asian component ;)
>>29127
>pop science
The current idea that it's only legitimate to study/comment on super-thin slices of history (or science) in obsessive detail has ruined the whole field.
Diamond brought together evidence from various fields of science and history, stretching over the whole sweep of human history, and explained in a quite elegant and totally satisfactory way (imo) why parts of the world developed much faster than others.
For my money it's up there with the The Origin of Species and The Wealth of Nations in terms of explanatory power.
>>29615
im not a guy in that haplotype argument thats been raging for hours now
im just some dumb fucking idiot that spent a lot of time in /int/ over the years who thought it could be an edifying experience who is making a comment
>>29636
Doesn't fucking matter what he did, it's still pop science
>>29427
>m-muh Nazi inferiority
Fine contribution, faggot.
>>29370
>Oh, now it's what you "consider" European.
Oh, earlier its what you consider "European" and all that haplogroup I shitposting with no remarks on N was nothing.
>R1a and R1b carriers are also not white as they have just as much non-european haplogroups.
Like I, these are Middle Eastern origin haplogroups that more readily define European than "N".
In short, I feel pity for your inability to make a point and stick with it.
You are wrong on native PISA scores and wrong on the predominant haplogroup of Finns. Deal with it.
Mods, can you please ban every other person in this thread. This isn't /pol/
>>24124
>accurate
Given that it is a hodgepodge grand history in the tradition of bourgeois conservatism: in-
>>29686
Mods, can you please ban this pillow biter for being triggered about a conversation he contributed nothing to and showed up to the end of to complain about because he was rustled.
>>29668
>Oh, earlier its what you consider "European" and all that haplogroup I shitposting with no remarks on N was nothing.
You're an idiot, it has everything to do with N, I'm kind of tired repeating myself over and over, you're mental inferiority is showing when you can't process something written in a very simplistic manner. If Finns =/= White because N =/= European than no one is white in Europe because *Haplogroup of your choice*=/= European
>Like I, these are Middle Eastern origin haplogroups that more readily define European than "N".
India/Central Asia is now the middle east?
>Like I, these are Middle Eastern origin haplogroups that more readily define European than "N".
Oh, so now non-european haplogroups are magically European because you want them to be European? Hey, N is in Europe too. I like your constantly shifting standards, it literally boils down to "whatever I define as white is white regardless of haplogroups or where they originate from"
>>27086
>Three months after its capture
>Two weeks before its spine broke
>>29725
I don't get why Diamond raises the ire of /pol/. It doesn't deny the superiority of Western culture/civilization (in material if not moral terms), it just explains why it's superior without resorting to race.
>>29783
The entire point you made was Finns are not predominantly an Asiatic subclade because "muh true European I" when they are predominantly N Asiatics like I inferred to
begin with! I'm tired of repeating myself over and over because you're (sic) mental inferiority allows you to argue anything you want without acknowledging your entire argument was erroneous to begin with.
>India
See. I(J) and R* are both Levantine/Middle Eastern and more readily characterize modern Europeans than N
>>28212
I'm sure you're just pretending to be retarded, friend.
Just like with the PISA scores.
>>25594
>He goes from saying agriculture was man's great mistake,
did he say so?
The book is one of my favorite.
http://gendai.ismedia.jp/articles/-/33405?page=7
>>29896
HIRO
THIS BOARD NEEDS IDS AT THE VERY LEAST
FLAGS WOULD ALSO BE PREFERRABLE TO PREVENT ENTHONATIONALISTIC SHILLPOSTING
PLEASE I BEG OF YOU SAVE THIS BOARD BASED TOJO
>>29896
Agriculture was a mistake, bro. Wheat held us hostage and made life boring and oppressive.
>>29920
*le ethno typo
IDS AT THE VERY LEAST
>>29920
Second, board ids and flags please
>>29896
seriously, give us flags, korean dood
>>25594
Something can be "good" for a society in terms of its survival and domination over other societies, but not good for the individuals living in that society.
>muh haplogroups
You guys are aware that Y-dna haplogroups don't mean much as far as ethnicity is concerned as it's only related to patrilineal ancestry (e.g. women don't have these because they don't have Y chromosomes, duh), right? You guys are also aware that everyone shares ancestry with everyone from 7000 years ago, right?
>>29920
IDs would be good, but flags made /pol/ even worse. All they do is lead every thread off-topic with comments about the posters nationality (or presumed nationality)
>>29896
Historical discussion will be tainted if we cannot assure that successive posters identities or false promotion of ideas (samefagging) cannot be discerned!
Further, flags ensure that people cannot be disingenuous in their intent on reporting on a certain nation or historical narrative!!
>>29840
>it explains why it's superior without resorting to race
That's precisely what pisses /pol/ off, that and explaining why darker-skinned people are shit without resorting to race.
I read it and I dont believe it.
>>30065
Kekposting is bad, but even worse is (R/A/M/J insert your favorite letter's) "IDF" is allowed to wantonly promote a favorable narrative for their nation/group
>>29896
4chan-tachi wa nihongo wo yomemasen
>>27016
When will rest of the world learn the link between IQ and consumption of tar and ammonium chloride?
>>24124
Ridiculous pseudo-scientific bullshit. Incredibly and openly biased, with little to no actual basis in fact or research, relying instead on speculation and thought (that has since been proved as largely untrue.)
>>29896
Dear friend,
If you are going to do this board, then you need to not allow populist nationalist narratives. /int/ and /pol/ already exist for these.
>>24703
Because so cows were easy to domesticate huh faggot?
>>30202
>If you are going to do this board, then you need to not allow populist nationalist narratives
Agreed, which is why flags are needed to ensure nationals cannot shill their "populist nationalist narratives".
Is very divulgative, but the assumption that is garbage of the jews is exaggerated. Actually the revival of enviromental determinism are not liked by sjw.
>>30265
>Agreed, which is why flags are needed to ensure nationals cannot shill their "populist nationalist narratives".
Precisely not, friend. If you can't detect a narrative by exegetical reading then you shouldn't be posting on a humanities board. It is called reading.
>>29896
PLEASE HIRO I BEG OF YOU
THERE ARE GROUPS THAT PAY INDIVIDUALS TO POST FAVORABLE NATIONALISTIC NARRATIVES ON ENGLISH LANGUAGE DISCUSSION FORUMS
WE NEED FLAGS AND IDENTIFICATION MARKERS SO THAT BOARD RHETORIC IS NOT INFLUENCED BY SUBVERSIVE GROUPS SEEKING TO UNDULY INFLUENCE YOUNG MINDS BY PAYING CITIZEN COLLABORATORS TO POST FAVORABLE NARRATIVES FOR THEIR NATION OF INTEREST
>>30126
So dismantle their narrative if it's false.
But if this place gets flags instantly every thread will be half filled with >designated >build wall >white >weed lmao >burgerstan etc etc etc etc etc.
>>26914
Asians score higher on IQ tests because they have higher visuospatial intelligence than whites. That much is clear. However there is a decent amount of evidence to suggest Asians have roughly the same (or slightly lower) verbal intelligence as whites.
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft2.htm
>>30112
I wish there was a containment board for white supremacists, so /pol/ could actually stick to politics/news. /front/ or something.
>>30358
It appears you've never heard of the Kremlin paying individuals to post pro-Russian narratives on English language forums.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html
Forcing flags prevents the Kremlin and other posters from attempting to blend in as other nationals by restricting their ability to promote disingenuous narratives as unbiased outsiders.
>>30486
If you can't detect a whig history by the narrative, and report it on that basis, then you shouldn't be here. Have you heard that the Kremlin can get western IPs?
>>30405
If this was actually true what's to stop them from using a proxy/vpn. Plus there are plenty of expats and ethnics living in other countries.
>>30486
Nobody would pay anyone to post on 4chan since the posts aren't persistent.
>>30534
>Western IPs
>Posting on 4chan
Have you tried posting on 4chan through a proxy or TOR?
It is very difficult to do without a 4chan pass.
Please do not insult my intelligence for bringing up the very legitimate concern that nations pay trolls to direct young minds to certain narratives!
>>30583
You are very misinformed if you think that having post records are the only thing of concern to nationalistic groups!
They have plenty of individuals that are paid to direct narratives in real time!
>>30578
GG&S is just as much as redpill for people who "aren't racist" but would freeze up in horror if you asked them to explain why Europe conquered Africa/Australia/the Americas and not the other way round, as it is for racists who say x-race is clearly inferior to whites because whites conquered them and not the other way round.
>>29876
>The entire point you made was Finns are not predominantly an Asiatic subclade because "muh true European I"
No, I have not, your poor reading comprehension did that.
>when they are predominantly N Asiatics like I inferred to
Just like everyone else in Europe
>See. I(J) and R* are both Levantine/Middle Eastern and more readily characterize modern Europeans than N
I is not Levantine/Middle Eastern, I is European, you're still butthurt about that I see.
>Haplogroup R is a descendant of macro-haplogroup N. Among its descendant haplogroups are B, U (and thus K), F, R0 (and thus HV, H, and V), and the ancestral haplogroup of J and T.
>South Asia lies on the way of earliest dispersals from Africa and is therefore a valuable well of knowledge on early human migration.[3] The analysis of the indigenous haplogroup R lineages in India points to a common first spread of the root haplotypes of M, N, and R along the southern route some 60–70 kya.[4]
>>30578
>his/ is not /pol/, and Global Rule #3 is in effect. Do not try to treat this board as /pol/ with dates. Blatant racism and trolling will not be tolerated, and a high level of discourse is expected. History can be examined from many different conflicting viewpoints; please treat other posters with respect and address the content of their post instead of attacking their character.
Reported for /pol/-tier discourse.
>>30631
I'm not sure if you're trolling, but give an example or what countries you think are *paying* people to post what?
I don't disagree that lots of misinformed nationalists with no perspective like to parrot the propaganda they learned in grade school, but that's a long way from saying someone is paying them.
>>30653
Hiro is here now and there are more important things to discuss than haplogroups, good day.
>>30578
Enjoy your vacation, trash.
>>30673
Please read the previously attached New York times link or do a very simple google search yourself!
The Kremlin, among others, actively keeps a cyber troll department to influence narratives toward a pro-Russian slant on popular discussion venues such as reddit and perhaps even 4chan!
>>30655
So instead of judging the points I made you get butthurt about my aggresive style?
In the end I am right whether I use the word kike or not
This isn't ready you cannot silence different views deal w/it
>>30700
I do wish he could contribute his opinion alone at this juncture like a 4chan compatriot, but this board needs safeguards to ensure it does not become a playground for cyber trolls to promote pro-nationalistic historical narratives.
This book is very useful to make your history teachers rage.
It's the Twilight of history books.
>>30593
>!
I see that Kremlin gold doesn't actually buy well trained sockpuppets.
>>24317
But Europeans DID hunt horses and cows to extinction.
It was only the Indos that introduced them to us in tamed version.
>>30770
I'm not sure what your intent of this post was but I wish you well and hope we can enjoy a board of historical discussion that is untained by paid shitposters together!
>>27124
Yeah, fish, bugs and reptiles are incredibly hard
However any plant eating mammal can be domesticated within 3-4 generations. Many were ignore for being not particularly useful.
Predator mammals are more difficult by size. Hell Australia started to let it's citizens adopt red foxes because someone realized that an invasive species might have a place to go.
There's also birds but they are the gray area between lizards and mammals.
>>30714
I'm not going to take anything you say seriously if it's full of childish slurs and insults.
If this board ends up being composed mostly of people like you and turning into /pol/ 2.0, I'm pretty much done here.
>>24317
That 6 is pretty stupid, the diseases were pretty much a big factor. Apart from that, everything checks out to be honest
>>30709
There are practically no Russian posters on /pol/. So if they're posting there they're using proxies / posting from abroad.
>>30831
Good go back to r/historians nobody cares. Also the point I made stands this book was written by a liberal Jew (better now?) in order to disprove race determinism. Nowdays it is considered "eurocentric" and "racist". That's insane and shows the level of discourse
>>24317
>No significant cultural exchanges took place until the 15th century
What a fucking idiot
>>24703
South America had horses. So did North America. And elephantids, too. Both of these have been successfully tamed in other regions, but were brought to extinction in America.
>>30846
We have flags on /pol/.
Again, it is very difficult to post on 4chan through an alternative IP without a 4chan pass.
Most proxies and TOR do NOT work in posting on 4chan.
Further, I would argue that prior to flags on /pol/ there was evidence paid nationals directing dialogue under the guise of impartial anonymity.
How can it be claimed that there were no animals that could be domesticated in Africa? Euroman dogs descended from fucking wolves.
>>30877
What is /r/historians? Why do all the new users of 4chan that joined in the last few years keep spamming this reddit shit?
>>30877
So "the jews" promote GG&S
But "the jews" are also against it?
WTF are you arguing? What do "jews" have to do with fucking anything apropos the topic of this thread.
>>30877
not that guy
>go back to r
actually quality subreddits like r/askhistorians, where the mods delete every shitpost, actually hate this book
>>30915
Some crappy subreddit where they pretend to be scholars and shit. Also the easiest thing in the world to "troll" and get the comments shut down. Pretty funny stuff
>>30896
>Again, it is very difficult to post on 4chan through an alternative IP without a 4chan pass.
>Most proxies and TOR do NOT work in posting on 4chan.
States can readily buy servers.
>>30915
I've never been to reddit have no idea how it works (except that apparently it has up/down voting of posts so I assume it's a circlejerk). Don't understand the need to constantly reference it here.
>>30877
Ok, your post is actually readable now, so thanks for that
So you're saying that GGaS was initially considered liberal and anti-racist since it sought to explain the supremacy of western/white civilisation by non inherent racial factors - but the fact that it is now considered eurocentric and racist shows how absurd the current cultural zeitgeist is?
That seems reasonable to say. Who thinks GGaS is racist though? Eurocentric yeah, that's the entire point because the world is literally composed of European-style nation states. Europe won
>>29896
I have said my piece and am sorry to have distracted from your contribution to the topic Hiroshimoot.
But this board at the very least needs IDs to prevent individuals promoting a false consensus of their claims and perhaps more importantly needs flags to prevent paid nationals from influencing public opinion on their country in a skewed fashion.
Take care senpai baka desu
>>30948
actually every post that doesn't link to specific science paper, the source, gets deleted
>>30953
I don't mean to infer your intentions but you seem to be very much in favor making it easy for shills to direct discourse.
Have a good one.
>>24262
>Eurocentric
>>30896
It's fucking TRIVIAL to set up your own private proxy. Let's say you're Russia and you want to shit-post on 4chan all day:
1. buy a router for $20, turn on VPN access
2. station said router in any country you want to appear to post from
3. done
>>31052
Have you posted on 4chan from a proxy before??
>>30894
2 things
first, they also had camels
second, horses and camels traveled across the same bridge later used when native Americans would make their way to America.
Horses and Camels were being put to extinction due to the large predators, in which horses and camels were not very good at repeling, and escaped over the bridge. Any left over went extinct not due to introduction of humans, as that would likely not happen for a good while, but due to no safe plains for them to live in within America.
>>30990
Apparently it is "eurocentric" and "racist" according to the teenagers at /lit/ who used to discuss this book all the time.
We are at a point where any attempt to judge a civilisation in a no go. The term "civilised" is considered offensive and racist. Saying that classical Greece was more civilised than the cannibal tribes of Papua New Guinea is verbotten.
>>31038
You seem to be very much in favour of allowing nationalist shilling based on flaggery.
>>31163
>We are at a point where any attempt to judge a civilisation in a no go.
That's probably because of the is/ought problem. You can read about that in Hume.
>>31182
On the contrary my dim friend, if you see a pro-Russia post with a Russian flag, it should be very easy to ascertain their intentions!
Relative to seeing a pro-Russian post with no flag, a potential Kremlin shill is immediately given the benefit of the doubt as being from some other nation.
>>31232
Your attempt to read discourse as fundamentally national, and readable from a geoip paints you immediately as a shill. Try learning how to read texts for bias. It is the most basic historical skill.
>>28481
>>>/reddit/
>>31325
>I'm a shiill
>For advocating flags to prevent shilling
>For pointing out countries literally keep cyber trolls on staff to promote their rhetoric
OK senpai, makes a lot of sense desu.
What kind of historical narrative would he Russian government try to propagate anyway?
I can see Turkey or Korea or China having professional historical shillers (p.s. I'm posting from Korea), but Russia?
>>31447
I just used Russia as it is the most readily documented given the US Gov is angry with them and did the most journalism about it recent history.
Make no mistake, they're not alone. FIDDY!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
>>31404
Well desu poster:
States can readily afford clean IPs in other states.
Paid shills tend to either be very low quality, like yourself, who is basically shilling in favour of a nationalistic approach of /pol3/: the /int/ isn't enough, or very high quality.
Low quality shills can be immediately detected by their posts: you don't need flags.
High quality shills cannot be detected by their flags, as state agents they have ready access to IPs in different geolocations.
You need to improve your reading comprehension, because you seem incapable of following a basic argument.
>>29896
Hiroshima-Daicihi, I've made what I feel to be a fairly compelling case for ID tags and flags in this thread.
Again, I'm sorry to derail your contribution to this thread, but it is important such a long anticipated and potentially influential board such as /his/ has safeguards to prevent undue influence from subversive nationalistic groups.
Please save this board by curing its cancer before it comes malignant.
Sincerely,
American baka senpai
>>31599
I'm not bothering to read your disparaging shitpost about how I'm somehow a shill for wanting this board to not be unduly influenced by foreign nationals, have a good day and go fuck yourself faggot.
>>31668
Thank you for conceding.
>>31112
There's NO way to detect if you're posting over your own privately-set-up proxy/VPN. Only if you're posting from a commercial proxy/VPN with known IP ranges.
>>24898
Haven't read collapse. Saw a bit of some documentary based on it and it seemed like techno-utopian garbage.
>>33100
The cases he looked at were really interesting. The implication that we're now doing the same thing at a global scale is pure speculation however, and it's not as if we can do much about it anyway.
>>28453
So diseases did not kill almost everyone in the Americas? Holy shit, that is the strongest argument for white supremacy I have ever heard. A few ships of adventurers exterminated empires with just better swords.
>>33386
...in particular the Easter Island one is just insane. One of the most extreme cases of human stupidly ever surely. A people dependent on fishing (in boats) cut down EVERY LAST TREE on their totally isolated island in order to build useless statues in some sort of pissing contest. What was going through the head of the guy who cut down the last tree...
>>33470
>What was going through the head of the guy who cut down the last tree...
"Sickest statue ever, I'm telling you Waka-har, shit's gonna get us so much pussy, just wait and see man"
>>28369
His argument doesn't hinge on people catching diseases from domestic animals. Even if diseases appeared totally at random, the fact that Eurasia was so populous and so interconnected means that it'd quickly sweep through, leaving the people who remained with immunity. Getting additional diseases (over the baseline) from close contact with domestic animals was just the icing on the cake.
>>33386
We are obviously heading for a global collapse. It's his belief that apparently something is being done and this time increasing complexity will save us, unlike every other time.
>>29636
The shit his theories are based on were blown out and rejected almost a hundred years ago.
Claiming that geography is a big role and shapes and limits cultures is fine. Claiming that it's the dominant and causal isn't backed up by the historical record.
>>30081
I disagree. Each statement has to stand on it's own merit regardless of origin. This isn't biz, or int or even pol. It doesn't matter if the person talking about roman history is actually from italy, as opposed to the person claiming to see race riots in Austria is actually there.
>>33100
The TV show was crap. The historical cases he's looking at are the interesting part. The speculative part is more clearly speculative.
>>33470
>What was going through the head of the guy who cut down the last tree...
Take a look at modern Hatii. Without support, and perhaps the Dominicans, they'd colapse as well.
>>24337
Thats stupid.
>Lets just dumb down shit to the point of inaccuracy because these people are fucking idiots.
>Hey, im an idiot, i should get this!
>>34901
He was developing a new theory, meant for people that matter. It was not some bullshit for irrelevant, authoritarian nerds to argue about.
Which means you can not make it too long or complex, because then it would be lost in the bowels of academia.
