There's been a lot of bad blood over Islam due to Friday's fiesta. Are there any Muslims or anyone else interested in ongoing exchange thread to clear up any misunderstandings? Each week we could read something from the Quaran and the Philokalia, and then discuss it.
>>229815
drop trip faggot
>>229821
Okay
>>229815
>the Quaran and the Philokalia
>"a collection of texts written between the 4th and 15th centuries by spiritual masters"[1] of the Eastern Orthodox hesychast tradition.
I think it'd be better to compare Sufi poems, essays than the Qur'an. Just makes more sense as they seem more analogous to each other.
>>229822
No, it's not okay.
>>229836
What's the central Islamic theological text apart from the Quran?
>>229845
I apologize for my offense.
>>229815
I admire your effort,
however i'm afraid that this shithole isn't the place to have a blessed exchanged on these matters
i hope i'm wrong
>>229855
The Philokalia isn't the central theological text of Eastern Orthodoxy either is it? It's still the bible at the core of it.
>>229868
We could also do it on /lit/, but I was thinking /his/ gets more religious traffic. Maybe a twin-board thing?
Why do you hate liberty?
Why do you hate equality?
Why do you hate fraternity?
>>229869
That's correct, but the Philokia is the central text for an Orthodox perspective on the Bible.
>>229875
>for an Orthodox perspective on the Bible.
Then we need something comparable from an Islamic perspective. Just a raw translation of the Qu'ran is meaningless (despite appreciating it's literary aesthetics and inherent poetry which is another thing altogether and of which much is lost in translation anyway).
>>229895
Just about every translation of the Quran I've seen has significant commentary...as in, way more than the Orthodox Study Bible does in ratio.
>>229871
/lit/ sounds great : )
I said to my rose-cheeked lovely,
"O you with bud-like mouth,
why keep hiding your face,
like flirting girls?"
She laughed and said,
"Unlike the beauties of your world,
in the veil i am seen,
but without it I stay hidden."
>>229939
Nice. Which translation of the Quran is optimal?
I ordered this one from the library: http://www.amazon.com/The-Quran-Phrase-Phrase-Translation/dp/0940368218
Here's the /lit/ thread
>>>/lit/7354225
>>229895
here love
http://rissc.jo/tafsir/kashf.pdf
http://rissc.jo/tafsir/kashani.pdf
https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CFoQFjAIahUKEwjJ-5KfjJHJAhUGtQ8KHR6uANM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F0B2GU1ZyPbqVlU3prMUMzM0s4b1k%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&usg=AFQjCNH7RC9jdIDbQWAbS0FGYRB5cE0COQ&sig2=S2xQCylO9KKlJ3jS6BzPDg&bvm=bv.107467506,d.ZWU&cad=rja
there's no official commentary,
the earliest one would be this one however
http://www.rissc.jo/tafsir/IbnAbbas.pdf
>>229968
Nice.
I think most Muslims are good people. The problem with Islam is just that it lends itself particularly well to extremism due to it being more well defined than other faiths and thus you can call a lot more people that do or don't do some things heretics.
>>229957
I think that the Study Quran that's coming out, supervised by Seyyed Hossein Nasr is going to be great, it's a translation with commentary, you can already get some chapters for free,
i prefer to read on quran.com
with sahih international translation, another english translation, arabic and in my own native language
but that's more if you really want to study it in detail
Islam shares the proscription on killing that one finds in Judaism/Christianity and every major world religion.
Like Christianity it also has a just war theory tradition which will develop and postulate ideas about when this proscription is subject to exemption. In most of the Islamic literature on this topic (which references Hadith and Quran) it's clear that Muhammad typically used warfare to defend the early Muslim community from enemies who threatened its existence.
Starting with Sayyid Qutb in the first half of the 20th century, this idea was developed specifically to justify warfare against non-Islamic governments. [Qutb was trying to justify revolutionary resistance to a secular government run by Muslims].
The first suicide bombing in the Israel Palestine conflict occurred in 1989-- purely a tactic of desperation. This tactic merged with Qutb's ideas on war to form al Qaeda in the 1990s. Al Qaeda is thus a meeting Qutb's resistance to secular governments, resistance against the occupation of Palestine and the realities of asymmetric conflict.
Although most people don't know this, Al Qaeda's leaders have forbidden the use of violence on purely civilian targets. Al Qaeda accepts military, government and symbolic structures/personnel as valid targets (hence the WTC and the Pentagon rather than a football stadium filled with people).
Unfortunately other Islamist groups have begun popping up as the "War On Terror" has developed. ISIS makes Al Qaeda's views on war look benign. ISIS believes that any nonbeliever may be killed in the process of establishing itself as the Islamic State. Thus, any non-orthodox Sunni Muslim may be killed at any time. It's horrendous stuff.
And the real kicker? The confusion and suspicion surrounding Islam which has fueled almost 15 years of war in that region, combined with the cold indifference of imperial domination, have generated enough momentum for Syrians and others to begin acting in kind. We need brakes. Now.
>>229836
That's not a bad idea and true, they are more analogous.
>>229994
>I think most Muslims are good people.
Anyone who ascribed to a cult where apostates are to be murdered is not a good person.
>>229994
Nonsense. You're not helping the situation by regurgitating your dull and uninformed opinion.
If Islam "lends itself particularly well to extremism" then why is Islamic terrorism a late 20th century phenomenon? Why don't you see terrorist attacks on England and France in the 1800s, when both of these nations were in the business of dominating and subjugating Muslim nations?
If Islam is the cause of suicide bombings, why is the first suicide bombing in 1989 even though Islam has existed since the 6th century?
>>230038
Can you guys please read this post? It's my condensing of several hundred pages of reading on the topic. With all the misinformation out there you'll have a hard time finding such a short and on point summary.
>>230048
All Abrahamic religions say you should kill apostates and then contradict themselves a few paragraphs down the line. Again, it's less the fault of the religion than that of the people who are unable to look at it critically and take only the good philosophy/life advice out of it.
>>230058
>then why is Islamic terrorism a late 20th century phenomenon?
Because before they were strong enough compared to the west to just invade, rape, and pillage nonbelievers. It's also easier for them to both reach the countries to be attacked, as well as bee accepted in those countries thanks to limp=dicked liberals making excuses for their poor behavior.
>>230068
>All Abrahamic religions say you should kill apostates and then contradict themselves a few paragraphs down the line
Only one actually practices at a national level it in 2015.
>>230073
You're on the history board and you think the Muslim world has become weaker in the last century?
They have greater autonomy than in the colonial period and substantially more wealth.
They also have Air Forces with F16s and MiGs.
>>230066
Rational,informative posts are going to be skipped over because people just want an excuse to chimp out after the Paris shootings, this doesn't excuse the jihadists but, really, Islam threads on 4chan aren't really for rational,sane discourse on both sides.
>>230091
Weaker in comparison to Europe. The days of them launching large-scale invasions or raids, or even attacking vessels and enslaving Europeans, are over.
>>230100
You're a fucking idiot, no point talking to you. Have a good day. (You're part of the problem)
>>230091
>They have greater autonomy than in the colonial period and substantially more wealth.
That's like saying African nations are better than European countries in the Middle Ages. Yeah, they probably they are but in comparison the rest of the modern world they are relatively weaker.
>>229994
Islam has no central authority.
That's how radical imams and movements can abound since there is no pope equivalent to say "no BAD. BAD IMAM". Saudi Arabia got oil money to back it's spread dangerous tenets of Wahhabism to all corners of the world and it's not being dealt with it popping up in Africa, Asia and parts of Europe.
they aren't shy about this since SA said it would fund mosques for the refugees if Germany wanted on top it's known funding of terrorists organizations.
this is why we can't have nice things.jpg
>>230112
This point about the imams is very true. Local imams have a great deal of power and they play politics.
However I would not source modern jihadism in Wahhbism or Saudi oil money. There may be roots in these two things, but there are much bigger roots elsewhere (namely, Qutbism, the Israel-Palestine conflict, local sectarian conflicts and international meddling. The US and Israel provided support to Hamas through the 1980s in an attempt to combat Marxist Palestinian groups. You can bet ISIS and Al Nusra are getting guns and dollars from various governments.)
>>230099
This. I try to explain that you can treat people as individuals and address the flaws of an ideology without throwing everyone involved with the ideology out of a bus, but so far all the discussions are so bad. So fucking bad.
The best you get is the lackluster
>"What happened was really bad *french flag profile pic*"
And what you usually get is
>FUCKING MERKEL DON'T LET THESE SAVAGES IN OUR BORDERS.
>Hey guys why aren't you talking about X? Don't you care about X?
>Awww yeah lets ride on these fuckers lets go get em right now. *wanks hard*
Why is this so hard? We don't do it for any subject but terrorism.
>>230091
No, John, you are the idiots. Everything went to shit after the Ottoman empire fell. Dubai might look cool but you have a huge amount of ignorant and poor as fuck people living in those countries, some that still live in desert tribes, for fuck's sake. Those people constitute the majority of Muslims worldwide, add to that the fact most of the regimes in the region are weak shells and you have a recipe for the aloha snackbars we all know.
>They also have Air Forces with F16s and MiGs.
That's retarded, most of their armies are shit, they just cannot compare to a single western military in logistics, training or number of available planes, tanks, etcetera. They're massively inferior, just look at the fucking six day war, that huge ass coalition lost exteremely hard against fucking Israel. A few surplus Russian handouts don't change their very real handicaps.
>>230099
Islam isn't rational.
>>229815
>muslims
>not pieces of shit
anon do you know anything about their past history?
these are the very same guys that had crusades called on them for being filthy heathens and murderous little shits.
literally nothing has changed over there.
fucking tripfags.
>>230152
Scholasticism came out of Islam
>>230152
>no u
Cry me a river, faggot.
>>230138
In my opinion Americans know nearly nothing about Islam except that it is associated with terrorist attacks.
Some courses in religion at the secondary level are a necessity. It would do much to undermine the ignorant fears undergirding all these cries for mad wars. 3000 people die on 9/11 and then almost a quarter of a million die in Iraq/Afghanistan. 129 people die in Paris and they're going to drop 1500 casualties worth of bombs in the next weeks.
Mark my words: when this kind of strike takes place in America (and it will: all you need is a half dozen guys and a Texas pawn shop) the public will clamor for war, and people watching all this now will die in some stupid burnt-out hell hole in Syria, and some kid will join terrorists because an American soldier shot his dad, and thousands and thousands of people who are alive right now will bleed out in fire and hot steel. The Hell of it, the Hell of it all for want of understanding or patience. It keeps me up at night.
>>230152
We can be rational in our discourse discussing Islam though. Treat it as an academic exercise. Look at it from a social point of view. Be unbiased.
Just because the majority of sane people decry war doesn't mean we can't study it without having to 'demonise it' BAD BAD BAD every other sentence or interpretation.
>>230138
>Why is this so hard? We don't do it for any subject but terrorism.
probably because terrorism is an exciting threat in an otherwise boring,comfortable 1st world life which gets people riled up and hot-blooded because it's something that may directly effect them not a country halfway across the world that gubment bombs.
>>230138
>Why is this so hard? We don't do it for any subject but terrorism.
At the risk of stating the obvious, terrorism is aimed at provoking these responses.
>>229815
I'm a Paki immigrant in Britain.
To be honest we're here just to destroy the western world. We want you to die. Islam will conquer Europe. And there's nothing you can do about it. If you raise a finger we'll scream "islamophobia" and the politically correct politicians will come to our rescue, making laws to defend us.
>>230159
Scholasticism came out of Greek philosophy, Muslims just appropriated it.
>>230171
Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that...
>>230171
It would have been lost for centuries after Rome fell if it hadn't been for muslim scholars, though.
>but muh monasteries
They salvaged a lot of knowledge, that's true, but then procceeded to do nothing with it or at least nothing that changed the lives of the majority until the Renassaince while Islamic philosophers did develop a lot from it.
The thing is, most people see this entire conflict in a context of islam attacking the west and our way of life, but that's just the result of skewed anglocentrism and a failure to stay informed about the happenings in other parts of the world.
The majority of people killed by these conflicts are muslims, by other muslims.
The majority of refugees have moved into other muslim nations with only a small amount entering europe
Most people just want to feel persecuted because it feeds into their victim complex while ignoring actual victims or pretending that their hands are squeaky clean.
>>230163
Agreed with this but where does it leave us? What's the solution to all of this?
>>230209
This has been going forever, it's the cycle of war and hatred. I don't have a solution nor am I a fedora but I think development and secularism (or at least fucking public order and and a semblance of tolerance) go hand in hand.
>>230209
I was a kid when Iraq happened. It's been horrific watching it all happen again in slow motion with Syria... the same bellicose press, the same terrified voters. A war in Syria is absolutely impossible to win. Remember how we were afraid of Iraq developing into Civil War? Well in Syria, the Civil War is waiting for us before we even put a boot on the ground. What a mess!
If they start beating war drums in Washington, I'll drop everything I'm doing and spend my days trying as hard as I can to prevent it. I hope I'll see you out there. Nothing is more important. If we go to war it means tens of thousands of deaths at least, probably hundreds. Dead children, dead women, dead boys, dead men, dead soldiers, dead civilians, in a country that's already death-laden, in a conflict led by a nation that's already war-broke.
>>230233
Islam has a functional pluralism built into its framework. If all you can do is say "we need secularism" then you're no better than those who say "we need faith."
Imagine how the Salafi sees your secularism. He hates it and fears it. If you want him to leave you alone you must be prepared to let go of your hatred and fear all the same.
>>230203
This is spot on.
>>230240
The thing is that there is a lot of apathy and disillusionment in most 1st world nations in regards to politics, especially when it comes to the middle east.
The average Joe isn't personally affected by drone strikes in the middle east so he won't really care if a country on the other side of the world is going through hell as long he can have his iPhones and hipster glasses and starbucks coffee and Netflix, which is why politicians can just fuck with the middle east constantly with no real repercussions.
>>230240
But what of the Islamic state? Their attacks are international and I see no reason to believe they will stop any time soon. I'm no warhawk but at the same time I don't think we can ignore the isis threats. I think I would support a genuinely international coalition to take down isis and subsequently rebuild the infrastructure of their territory.
>>230286
This isn't the middle school playground. If someone draws your blood you don't return the gesture when it's going to draw more of both.
>>230280
No amount of shoulder-shrugging or finger-pointing, be it at ISIS or apathetic young adults, is going to help fix this mess of a world.
There's no time for cheap critiques of an apathetic public. Make them care. Make them understand the pain they cause. That's the only goal.
>>230138
Because terrorism is a really distant thing to most people because we usually see it in some country we don't give a fuck about where it's always been a troublesome country thing.
Like even the Troubles were probably a distant thing to non-British Isle Folks.
>>230262
Sorry but I'll be honest here, I believe people's right to express their faith should always be protected, but basing any kind of public policy or legislation on religious law (no matter which religion) is a terrible idea, it's just too easy for things to go overboard.
>>230286
You can't separate ISIS from the Syrian Civil War, and nobody really wants to back any side in that war outside of friendly words.
Backing the rebels means backing the friendliest pro-western sect you can, and hoping against odds that they can hold power against both Assad and all the other power players and militias in the region. Backing Assad would mean backing the people who killed even more Syrians than ISIS and turning the war into a Shah-of-Iran situation that cements the regions hatred of the west for a generation. Either option would require a MASSIVE investment on money and manpower to keep from going south, too.
>>230318
Barring the diaspora who funded terrorist groups in the conflict.
>>230307
So should the world just tolerate isis-backed attacks from now on? I acknowledge this is a problem that we wouldn't be dealing with if not for decades of intervention, but what will suddenly ignoring it accomplish? The problem is already here, it must be dealt with somehow and afterwards we can learn our lesson about meddling in the affairs of others
>>230321
It's not your business what some nation thousands of miles away does for jurisprudence, and the only way you'll get non-religious law in countries with robust Islamic traditions is by force.
Would you advance colonialism in the name of secularism?
You may shout at him for a l
>>230330
When a school shooting happens do we feel the need to invade a country? When a hurricane strikes do we "have to do something"?
We have to set up infrastructure to deal with the threat (which western countries since 911 have already done). If they break through security there is nothing that can be done. Track down the attackers, bust the cells, get what bad guys you can up to war.
But use your head. There are times when find ourselves angry and with a loaded gun in our hands. Not all such times are occasions for shooting.
I think at this point the recolonizing the middle east is the only chance we have at any semblance of modernization within the next century.
Burn down all the governments, beat down the culture and start over, they're obviously too selfish to rule themselves and they suck at it when they try.
>>230286
ISIS is one of those rare instances in history where a force is just pure evil no matter how you spin it, I don't support war, but I think if there has ever been a situation where the United Nations should act to put down a group like a rabid dog it is now. The problem is the UN is extremely divided and two of the countries that pull the most weight inside it aren't willing to do anything due to geopolitics, Russia wouldn't do it if it means deposing Assad, and China just doesn't really care enough to do anything but is wary of working too close with the US or doing something that angers Putin.
>>230355
You have no idea how much human death you're advocating for. It's sick.
>>230038
>Although most people don't know this, Al Qaeda's leaders have forbidden the use of violence on purely civilian targets. Al Qaeda accepts military, government and symbolic structures/personnel as valid targets (hence the WTC and the Pentagon rather than a football stadium filled with people).
What about the planes that had pure civilians on them? Or were the planes just a means to be able to accompolish their attack?
>>230364
I'll pull a phrase from the Press Secretary's handbook: Collateral damage
>>229815
Would you ban this pic? Or initiate violence against the author if you could?
>>230322
>Backing the rebels means backing the friendliest pro-western sect you can
Show me a single pro-western secular sect still operating in Syria
There isnt a single one. I would argue that there never was one in the first place.
I agree with you though.
I'm afraid that the events from yesterday will be ramped up and used as an excuse for a "boots on the ground" situation.
Curious that this happens after Russia went all gung ho, and affirmed their support for Assad
>>230330
Western forces shouldnt have been in any of those places in the first place.
Of course, at the same time, we know this isnt possible.
Its a lose, lose situation.
>>230361
The way things are going, either the middle east will take a big hit, or the rest of the world will take that hit instead. I know which one I prefer.
>>230339
>and the only way you'll get non-religious law in countries with robust Islamic traditions is by force
Sadly this is true, and the few times it's been tried it ended badly. But like I said, development and education tend to weaken religious sternness and then people procceed to try and get along.
>Would you advance colonialism in the name of secularism?
No, I never implied that. I don't really think people were better off under countries that considered them at best second tier citizens.
>>230373
Haram as fuck desu lad.
>>230240
>had a friend who was Syrian (Canada here).
>Told us about his time in Syria and the cool shit he over their.
>Misses it but likes Canada and wants to visit Syria as much as he can.
>Haven't seen him in years but imagining him having to deal with the entire conflict on top of his family being in harms way must fuck him up
>tfw Eritrean and know his pain. If I was their to comfort him I can't say anything because Eritrea is... well Eritrea.
Feras we are all gonna make it brah.
>>230379
Don't look at religion as purely problematic. The imams in Lebanon created the peace that resides there after 15 years of civil war.
Nothing you can do will make Islam go away. Not now, not in a hundred years. It will be the dominant cultural and political force of the middle east for the imaginable future. If there is to be a peace, it will be an Islamic peace, and there will be imams at the table.
>>230376
>Curious that this happens after Russia went all gung ho, and affirmed their support for Assad
Putin literally has said he's willing to work with NATO to destroy the IS, and for all the propagada the Russian help isn't moving the frontlines in any significant matter, they've just helped Assad cling to his power when it seemed likely he was about to fall. Not everything is a conspiracy.
>>230377
I'm sorry you're such a dumbass. Must make life hard.
>>230360
But anon, you would've said the exact same thing post 9/11
Nobody was really opposed to the intervention in Afghanistan, as much as my mind can remember. At the very least, it didnt have in any way the same opposition as the Iraq war. It was a complete unmitigated disaster though. Almost 15 years later and you have the Taliban conducting attacks in Kabul
>>230411
I'm not saying it was a conspiracy or anything. If anything, I think this attack shows how ISIS may be starting to feel worried and really pressed in Syria and Iraq. Which is a good thing.
The thing is that, the more ISIS looses terrain and manpower, the more radical means they will take against the west. Which is a bit worrying
>>230420
I hate to admit it but you're right. I want to believe Afghanistan is still a shithole because the military were more interested in flattening everything in front of them rather than adressing the core problems that enable the creation of things like Al-Qaeda because to them it didn't matter what those people did as long as they didn't do it on American soil. I like to believe it could and still can be done better, but no country is willing or able to commit to the the immense spending and sheer effor that'd take to fix the middle east.
>>230487
You know we wouldn't have to fix all these messes if we'd stop making them.
>>230496
The guilt game is pretty useless at this point, I don't know, but I think leaving the middle east to its own devices would do even more damage.
>>230496
This is true, but what's done is done and the problems are here.
>>230516
It's not a "guilt game." It's a series of facts outlining the cause and effect relationship between western imperialism and conflict.
The west does not give a damn about the people of the Middle East. Every "heart and mind" is for security purposes, economic resources or foreign policy goals. Once we start caring about human life we will see things change.
>>230555
The pattern is more than just "we make a mess we have to clean it up." I should add that typically our attempt to clean one mess up creates the very conditions of the next one, and not due to some conspiracy of the universe but due to our consistent behavior towards the region, namely the fact that it's based on our own national and security interests and not on the well-being of the region's people.
>>230159
they certainly haven't learned not to imitate what they read like its absolute
>>230516
if people actually want the attacks perpetrated by ISIS to stop then we need more intervention in iraq and syria. anyone that talks about leaving completely this late in the game, or just as retarded the 'peaceful solutions' spouted by the UN, are delusion and are just accepting that they dont care about major terrorist attacks occuring.
>>230577
no we wont,
latin americans dont so this
South americans
asians dont do this
Africans dont do this
only anti-western wahabi terrorists pull this shit
>>230496
thats a completely useless argument though.
Shit happened.
Reagan supported the mujaheddin in afghanistan against the Soviet Union and then didnt gave a shit about them.
Then, as the wahabi shits they were, they replied in full.
It happened. Its pointless to continue discussing this.
>>230487
>I want to believe Afghanistan is still a shithole because the military were more interested in flattening everything in front of them rather than adressing the core problems
From what I know from the american intervention in Afghanistan is that it had the long term problems into consideration, if not originally, it became obvious immediately after the boots were on the ground.
Training local troops and militias, establishing schools, struggling to establish a minimally working democratic system, convincing all the different civilians all over Afghanistan to join the NATO forces instead of the talibans, convincing farmers to stop producing opium... All of these was implemented by the US, it just happened that it was a bit of a failure, not because of trying, but because the cultural issues behind it are so incredibly ingrained. And religion helps those cultural habits to become even more institutionalized.
>I like to believe it could and still can be done better, but no country is willing or able to commit to the the immense spending and sheer effor that'd take to fix the middle east.
No western country, or Russia/China are open to do that, and I very much doubt any real effective change could come from outside intervention. It depends on the locals. Outside help is just that: help, not a definitive solution.
Of course the first help would be in supporting a solution that offers long term effective peace and stability.
>>230171
Not at all true, Aquinas himself relied on Ibn Sina's authoritative interpretation and commentary of Aristotle for his work. Muslims were highly interested in international philosophy (not just Greek but Iranian, Indian, Armenian, etc.) and adapting/criticizing/developing/praising them towards their own unique ends, as Europeans did with Greek and Islamic philosophy.
>>230656
Pls go ahead and tell us where your screenshot is from and what makes you think it's a trustworthy source
>>230756
You missed the point entirely if you think you have to ascertain the validity of the author of that post.
Fucking idiots on this board. Well, all boards.
>>230631
Oh they do commit terrorism or acts of violence but it ain't as easy to spot.
>>230862
really, what is the latin american IS?
>>229872
I propose the German realities:
Cavalry
Artillery
Infantry
>>230885
dude Latin America has been riddled by revolutionary and counterrevolutionary armies for decades, peaking in the 1980s. Terrorist tactics were the norm. We backed a lot of these terrorists (Rios Montt's soldiers who slaughtered as many as 1500 native villagers, Regan's support of the Contras, the killings of priests and politicians in El Salvador, lots of examples)
You don't know shit if you have to ask that question. Evil people are everywhere.
>>230954
that would lead to more of this, unless you go full genocide and bomb dome of the rock and every mosque, then its just a few generations of repeat attacks/riots
>>230058
This particular warfare is new, but religious war suited the Umayyed, Ottomans, Seljuk's, I could go on and on.
>>230916
can't you say this about every organized religion though
everybody cherrypicks what they want and ignores anything that contradicts it
>>230916
Oh look, another secular shit bird who thinks fundamentalist literalism is the gold standard of religion. Odd that only atheists and ISIS feels that way, don't you think?
>>230965
they show up here and do it? no, they havent
>>230970
a civilizing mission or a religionised border expansion shouldn't be called a "religious war" until an exhaustive analysis is completed. I'm guessing your history here is about as foggy as mine but be my guest to argue.
>>230916
>If you read the Quran, you'll notice ISIS are the only real muslims
Just fuck off.
>>230982
Terrorists aren't magically not terrorists if their actions don't affect you.
That's like saying the IRA didn't count as terrorists because they weren't muslim and you're weren't affected by them.
>>230982
We also weren't bombing Guatemala or El Salvador but that's beside the point.
My point is that:
The usage of terrorist tactics is by no means confined to Islamic groups. In fact, it's found every time there's a militarily unbalanced conflict.
Am I being an apologist for tactics like hiding among civilians, laying mines on public roads or blowing up civilian crowds? No. I'm observing that such tactics, brutal as they are, do not reflect ideology but are in fact found everywhere asymmetric warfare occurs.
>>230988
The muslim book is meant to be read chronologically, correct?
>>230885
Central and South America has been dealing with fringe groups and extremists for hundreds of years.
Let me be the most honest person here and say that a lot of people don't want foreign cultures and religions exhibited anywhere but the Arab world. Many in the west have experienced erosion in their own cultures following intellectualism's attacks on Colonialism, salvery, ect. that they feel too guilty to identify with their own culture.
They don't want many of you because of how different you are. Like it or not, that's the truth. They want you out of site. If they wanted to see your cultures, they'd go the Turkey, UAE, Saudi Arabia, ect.
That being said, the best way to heal tensions is to send millions back and stop destabilizing the region in these god damn proxy wars. Past that, it's your job to overthrow your government, not ours. When we tried, people went apeshit.
>>231005
Do you see Muslims killing people everywhere they go? Did the British get slaughtered by the Indian Muslims as soon as they stepped foot there? How about in Iran? How about in Saudi Arabia when soldiers from the US and Europe set up camp during the Gulf War?
Do you think this is some oversight or hypocrisy on the part of Muslims? Have you ever pondered if they have a reason for not going around killing all the non-believers when it seems to say so in their text?
I will gladly explain this verse but I wanted to ask you this first.
>>231019
>They don't want many of you because of how different you are. Like it or not, that's the truth. They want you out of site. If they wanted to see your cultures, they'd go the Turkey, UAE, Saudi Arabia, etc
What if they weren't european but they were born and raised in europe and wore european clothes and spoke an european language?
>>231022
>Wahhabis
It has two h's you illiterate quack. And Wahhabism is hardly responsible for contemporary terrorism.
Jihadis don't read Wahhab. They read Qutb. The takfiri philosophy of ISIS is radical and relatively new-- it certainly didn't begin in 18th century Arabia.
Just because most of the hijackers came from Saudi all of you self-styled Islam "tell-it-like-it-is" experts think Wahhabism is the root of the problem. It's absolutely ridiculous.
>>229815
In any kind of confrontation, the basic model for victory is to outmaneuver and overpower the opponent without exhausting yourself. Every Pyrrhic victory is a defeat and has to be avoided. Americans don't have a problem with "power", but they are outmaneuvered by low-tech urban terrorist guerrillas. At this pace they will achieve a Pyrrhic victory or a total defeat. Salafist Extremism's power is entirely located within its ideological justification. It's ideological justification rests in the idea that the West has attempted to subjugate majority Muslim nations under its rule and has persecuted Muslims. The justification works because it's true, and as long as it's true there will always be someone that summons the bravery to attack "the West" because it ["the West"] is fundamentally in the wrong and no one in the West is actually doing anything to challenge this.
Then the solution is to outmaneuver the ideology. For the US to win, it must retract all military personnel in the middle east and everywhere else and dismantle their system of military bases. Action through no-action.
>>231070
It's arranged chronologically from the time of revelation. So chapter one is Muhammad's first revelation, not the creation of the universe.
>>231039
No, but those muslims clearly are ignoring parts of their bible.
They should just revise it like we did with Christianity so they and the "extremists" don't follow the same damn shit and then they won't be targeted with suspicions every god damn time someone goes ALLAHU AKBAR and explodes.
They probaby won't because they secretly praise their "freedom fighters" and at their core are still jelly that Europe and Asia went places over the centuries while they didn't do shit despite being "Allah's chosen people".
>>231079
>It's arranged chronologically
The muslim book is not arranged chronologically. However, it's supposed to be read chronologically.
>>231068
its still islam going into other countries thousands of miles and commiting terrorism
thats an act of war if you're a government not a religious group
>>231045
Fuck em, that's what. At the very least, I would suggest lowering the number to under 500,000 in Europe, starting with the newest arrivals with the most Eurpean staying.
>>230987
The Umayyad themselves were regarded as a Jihad state, that answers that. The Ottomans would force conversions on the sons of Hungarians (other Balkan countries), enslave them and turn them into Jannisaries. A boast of the siege of Vienna was to plant the mineret there, a sign of victory that has religious connotations, I could on and on with examples.
>>231086
Oh, right, so you know what True Islam is better than all those hypocrites in the Muslim world who pray five times a day and expect to be judged by the One True God? You think they don't take this shit seriously?
The practice, since the classical period, of interpreting Quranic verses has been to evaluate them within the context of their revelation. In Islam you never interpret a verse without reference to the particular setting which prompted it. This isn't liberal BS, this is how it's fucking done.
Since there are different ways of determining context and different techniques for determining the applicability of a verse, different schools of interpretation exist in Islam. A very small minority, beginning perhaps with Ibn Taymiyyah, interprets verses like these as applicable beyond their Quranic context.
Sayyid Qutb had to go and dig up obscure theologians when he was constructing his vision of modern Jihad. Why? Because everywhere he looked he found theologians restricting war against Muslims, or restricting war against People of the Book etc.
The nasty verses you find on, for example, theReligionOfPeace dot com, though translated "nonbeliever" or "unbeliever" do not take on the connotations these words have in English. The Arabic word is usually mushrikun or kafirun-- more akin to "polytheists." This is the collective term Muhammad used to refer to the Meccans, and these verses usually refer to just that-- the Meccans, who posed a military and economic threat to the early Muslim community until they were defeated militarily.
>>231127
>Fuck em, that's what
so your problem isn't with culture, then?
I >>231045 said
>What if they weren't european but they were born and raised in europe and wore european clothes and spoke an european language?
they would have the same culture and traditions as an european so really 'culture' just seems like a veiled way to say 'I hate brown people' which is fine if you just outright said it instead of trying to weasel out by saying it's due to 'differences' or 'culture'.
Given I'm not getting a reply - I think for blatantly obvious reasons - I'll finish the thought. The muslim book is meant to be read chronologically, although it is not ordered chronologically. This means you have a chronological progression of the muslim "prophet" from a random guy talking about his revelations to a bloodthirsty murderous vengeful child-raping warlord after his return to Mecca after exile.
The end of the muslim faith is violent and barbaric.
>>231155
>religion has nothing to do with culture
>the religion doesn't exuded culture
Man, I hate "gotcha" shit heads.
>>231166
>No.
It actually is. You're to take the later examples and commands as being the ultimate authority where they're relevant.
You *can* read it in any order, but abrogation makes the later bits take precedence.
>>231180
I didn't say anything about their religious beliefs, I said 'what if they were non-european but raised in europe', so presumably they would be atheist if you had to specify religious beliefs.
So, like I said, your problem isn't with culture but I don't see why you had to dress it up instead of stating what you actually think.
>>231164
>I think for blatantly obvious reasons
You're not being anywhere close to as clever as you think. You could just have said "Muslims uphold Muhammad as a model human and I disagree with x,y,z Muhammad did." which is really a common argument.
The disagreement will hinge on the exact nature of x,y,z, and I don't particularly feel like discussing Muhammad's relationships or the ethical norms of a 6th century tribal society. But we can go down that road if you really want.
As for warfare, there's some fantastic Hadith that illustrate Muhammad and the Righteous Calphis had a strong sense of jus in bello ethics that restricted the use of arms against certain civilian classes.
I will post these in a moment, I have to transcribe them from a book.
>>231187
But how do you know what order to read it in if the chronology is not marked?
>>231196
The context of the statement was in culture, which certainly includes religion. Naturally, I thought it was implied in your reply. If they were atheists, I couldn't care less.
>>231202
Are you a muslim? If you're a muslim, you can't possibly be serious. If you're not then I'll actually tell you.
>>231197
It's not just what the muslim "prophet" did himself, it's what he commanded his followers to do. The end of his life takes precedence in muslim conduct over his early life - period.
>restricted the use of arms against certain civilian classes
Killing all the men and boys above the age of five and raping their women sure is "a strong sense of justice". Yeah. Totally.
>>231207
>Naturally, I thought it was implied in your reply. If they were atheists, I couldn't care less.
Ah, I see. I should have specified, my bad.
it's just that I see people make the 'culture' argument all the time in threads like these when they really mean ethnicity rather than culture.
>>231210
I'm not.
>>231247
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur'an
From Ibn Kathir,
"When he [the Prophet] dispatched the armies, he said, "Go in the name of God! Fight in the way of God against the ones who disbelieve in God! Do not act brutally! Do not exceed the proper bounds! Do not Mutilate! Do not kill children or hermits!" (copied from Islam, Fundamentalism and the Betrayal of Tradition, page 26)
The following is from a treaty signed between the Prophet and a Christian community in Najran in southern Arabia, reported in the Hadith of Baladhuri:
"Najran and their followers are entitled to the protection of Allah and to the security of Muhammad, which security shall involve their persons, lands and possessions... No attempt shall be made to turn a bishop , a monk from his office as monk, nor the sexton of a church from his office..."
The following is a Hadith from Ibn Rushad
"Once when Rabah went forth with the messenger of Allah, he and the companions of the Prophet passed by a woman who had been slain. The Messenger halted and said: "she is not one who would have fought." Thereupon he looked at the men and said to one of them "Run after Khalid al-Walid and tell him that he must not slay children, serfs or women."
The following is a Hadith regarding a dispatch sent by Ummar to his troops:
"He used to command them, "Fight, taking the name of the Lord. You are fighting in the cause of the Lord with people who have disbelieved and rejected the Lord. Do not commit theft; do not break vows; do not cut ears and noses; do not kill women and children. Communicate this to your armies."
I have more if you want them.
>>231277
Treaties surely mean a whole lot to a religion whose "prophet" made a treaty and then unabashedly broke it when he made a surprise attack on Mecca.
>>231223
I won't deny that there is very little ethnic respect, but the conflicts stems more towards how different their cultures are, and the fear that their own culture will go the way of the Roman or Goth. Most of these anti-Islamic images included masses in the street praying, their garb and their often wild offense at the way the western world challenges religions.
>>231277
See, it's incredibly difficult to trust the adherents of a religion who has an *official* policy of lying to non-believers, blatantly and unabashedly seen in the conduct of their "prophet".
>>231222
see
>>231277
[additional note: I am not Muslim. I respect the religion, not because of a forced multicultural ethic, but because I have studied it a bit and listened to lectures by Muslims that have made me see its beauty and brilliance, its applicability to life and its spiritual excellence.
As such I do not believe in Muhammad as a prophet of God. But I do think this man was incredibly charismatic and represented a clean break with his contemporaries. Muhammad initiated a society more just, progressive and humanitarian than the militaristic tribal society he came from and conquered. Slaughter and rape were the norm, and here's a man who broke these norms. Say what you will, if you keep the world he came from in mind it's difficult to see him as anything but just and tolerant by way of comparison.]
>>231315
I responded to that post twice already.
>>231310
>It's incredibly difficult to trust the adherents of a religion who has an *official* policy of lying to non-believers
Not him but are seriously talking about Taqiyya? The buzzword thrown around by people ,who don't actually understand what it means or what it actually is, as if it somehow discredits muslims?
It's funny how it always comes up when the person in question has no arguments left.
>>229872
>implying western powers give you any of those
kek, enjoy brainwhashing while you can
>>231310
If you're hinting at conspiracy you're going to have to try a lot harder than that.
>>231295
All indications are that these treaties were kept. St. Catherine's monastery, as another example, had an original treaty with Muhammad's stamp granting them protection in their Sinai desert, but this document was lost just prior to the modern period.
>>231326
Any religion that holds that it's acceptable to lie under any circumstances is a discredit to that religion.
>t's funny how it always comes up when the person in question has no arguments left
HA. The muslim "prophet" himself practiced it. He had no problem whatsoever lying to non-believers to further his goals.
From the Quran:
“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (2.256)
"“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (5.48)
“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (60.8)
>>231330
>All indications are that these treaties were kept
But they need not have been - the muslim "prophet" exemplarized this himself when he attacked Mecca while he had treaty with it.
Islam is the religion of violence, lies, and deceit.
>>231338
>Any religion that holds that it's acceptable to lie under any circumstances is a discredit to that religion.
You're just being dumb now, go to bed. Did you really come into this thread to advocate honesty as a universal and absolute ethical norm? Do you even really think that?
>>231356
>You're just being dumb now, go to bed
What a rigorous argument.
>Did you really come into this thread to advocate honesty as a universal and absolute ethical norm? Do you even really think that?
Yeah, because we're talking about religion, and I'm a Christian, and Christians *DO* hold that. Christians actually have principles that others like to see in people; crazy huh?
Unfortunately, the "no compulsion in religion" verse hasn't always been interpreted as straightforwardly as we moderners want it to be. Historian Patricia Crone wrote a good article on it: https://www.opendemocracy.net/patricia-crone/no-compulsion-in-religion
>>230038
what about this?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq
http://stormcloudsgathering.com/the-covert-origins-of-isis
reminder that the US helped create ISIS
>>231373
>no compulsion in religion" verse hasn't always been interpreted as straightforwardly as we moderners want it to be
Because it's abrogated by many *many* later passages?
>>231365
what do cotton blends have to do with anything?
>>231350
Here's another hadith:
"When Abu Bakr sent an army to Syria, he went on foot with Yazid ibn Abu Sufyan who was the commander of a quarter of the forces... "I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old or the infrim; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town; do not cut the gums of sheep or camels except for the purpose of eating; do not burn date trees nor submerge them; do not steal from booty and do not be cowardly."
And another hadith
"Nafi reported that the prophet of God found a woman killed in some battles, and he condemned such an act and prohibited the killing of women and children."
>But they need not have been
You don't disobey an order from your general-tribe-master-king-prophet-saint. You just don't. Islam's own record clearly illustrates that the Prophet and his companions emphasized consistent restrictions on warfare, constituting a system of jus in bello that broke with the brutal standards of the times and emphasized the protection of innocents. No doubt our shooters last night would have been frustrated by such hadith, but they, like you, were probably "educated" with an interpretation of Islam that ignored such considerations and only emphasized militarism and victory.
>>231385
>>231387
Jamal I already know you have many passages about not killing women and children (except boys over the age of five). That's irrelevant when it's your unabashed policy to kill all men, rape their women, and conquer everything you possibly can.
>>231365
How funny, I was literally just reading about torture in Guatemala during the 1980s, and how they would take Catholic villagers and starve them, or force them to stand up for days, or leave water dripping on their forheads, or pull nails from their fingertips, all to get information.
What say you about honesty in these circumstances, oh fool?
(Also, it's not an argument, it's an insult. You're dumb.)
>>231406
>What say you about honesty in these circumstances
The same fucking thing? If you want to be a worthless unprincipled cocksucker you go right ahead - nothing's stopping you for now.
>>231388
also getting tattoos
whats with that?
forcing rape victims to marry the perpetrator is pretty sand nigger tier too
>>231402
One should evaluate a man and his creed with reference to his time. Or do you take issue with Catholicism on the grounds that Jesuits took slaves?
>>231414
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>231413
I'm enjoying watching you get butt flustered and adopt a series of perspectives for the purposes of this argument which you don't actually hold.
"Honesty is the best policy" is a child's maxim for which anybody but the biggest idiot (such as yourself) can quickly compile a long list of exceptions, where lying or not speaking at all are the preferred courses of action for a variety of reasons.
>>231374
>America backs secular dictator that terrorizes his people. (Egypt & Iran)
LOOK! See how America robs these people of their future! Of course religious extremists are acting up, look at the horrors America has enabled!
>America refuses to back secular dictator that terrorizes his people. (Libya and Syria)
LOOK! See how America's misguided well-doing just makes things worse in the long run!
>America opts not to interfere in some foreign conflict. (Syrian civil war)
WHY ISN'T ANYONE DOING ANYTHING?!?!
>>231416
>Or do you take issue with Catholicism on the grounds that Jesuits took slaves?
I have issues with Catholicism *PERIOD*, but of course I take issue with *at least* those Catholics if not Catholicism itself for those things.
If the muslim's "prophet" practiced "time dependent" things, then why do muslims hold his teachings as universal and timeless? Because they do.
>>231402
also citation for this "boys over the age of five" and mass rapes. Please pull several sources (as I have kindly done for you) regarding these.
>>230038
>>230136
there is one thing I don't understand: why aren't they attacking israel and the US/UK actively?
>The US and Israel provided support to Hamas through the 1980s in an attempt to combat Marxist Palestinian groups.
huh, I had no idea about this... ironically, the US govt is now supporting the PKK
>>230114
this
>>230163
just to add: from what I can see, murricans have the same emotional response to communism/socialism...
>>231431
>which you don't actually hold
Dude, I've been here and on /pol/ since the beginning of both. I've held these views for years.
>"Honesty is the best policy" is a child's maxim for which anybody but the biggest idiot (such as yourself) can quickly compile a long list of exceptions
No. There are no exceptions. Also, not speaking is not dishonest. You're not obligated to say anything if you've done nothing wrong against someone else that needs to be said.
>>231416
im not a moral relativist
>>231441
K. Gimme a minute. I don't have your demonic book memorized - it's not worth the time.
>>231465
like wise
greek myths are a thousand times better
>>231435
Nowhere in this thread have we been debating the truth claims of Islam in general. Let's not do that now either. Are you a Muslim or not? If not, then leave it to Muslim theologians to worry about time dependence. If you believe Muhammad was a man, evaluate him as such. Don't pretend to be Muslim whenever it conveniently makes them seem more ridiculous.
Also stop capitalizing words for *EMPHASIS* it's annoying and it makes you look like you're getting emotional. Are you emotional, Praceteom?
Do you remember Abraham owning slaves Praceteom? Do you remember when he abandoned Hagar in the desert and nearly killed his own son? Do you remember when Lot offered his daughters up to the gay rapists? Do you recall Elisha sending two bears to slaughter 42 children? Do you take issue with Christianity for these reasons, or do you have some sort of theology that rinses the bad parts out? Do you imagine Muslims have similar techniques perhaps?
>>231434
murricans should be taught what "self-determination" means. but they have been doing this for quite a while, I don't think they really care about human life, at all.
btw, I wish someone could tell me the source of this attitude...
>>America refuses to back secular dictator that terrorizes his people. (Libya and Syria)
they did at some point, I guess... (I'm new to this board and don't really know much about history)- but they didn't fail to back them, they overthrew them...
>>231475
>Nowhere in this thread have we been debating the truth claims of Islam in general. Let's not do that now either
Except that's *exactly* what I've been doing? And that's exactly what we *SHOULD* be talking about, because that determines what you *ACTUALLY* believe?
>Are you a Muslim or not?
Hell no. I'd rather die.
>If not, then leave it to Muslim theologians to worry about time dependence
Oh God that is *hilariously* anti-intellectual. A muslim tries to defend his faith by saying he doesn't understand his faith. Unsurprising but ironic.
>>231458
That's not a relativist claim necessarily. I respect Robert E. Lee for treating his slaves kindly, I respect him less for having a slave, but I recognize he existed in a time period where that was widespread and so I don't consider him to be quite as evil as my neighbor Doug, who has slaves and is quite wicked.
Slavery is an absolute wrong, but one's ability to deduce this shifts as you move back in time.
Get it?
>>231441
It is not permissible to kill women and children . . . unless they are fighting against the Muslims. (p. 603, o9.10)
Exception.
When a child or a woman is taken captive, they become slaves by the fact of capture, and the woman’s previous marriage is immediately annulled. (p. 604, o9.13)
Rape.
The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslims. (p. 603, o9.10)
Unending violence.
O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. S. 33:50
Mass rape.
I haven't found the 5 year old bit. I think I remember a rule about what age boys are to be killed at, but who knows. I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the violent absurdity that is the muslim's book.
>>231456
This is /his/, not /pol/
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."
My opinions change often due to a constant influx of reading. You should try it some time.
>No. There are no exceptions.
So if the Romans asked Peter where Christ was he should have pointed at him?
>>231475
My position is easy to summarize: Islam is in fact not really that bad, most Muslims are a bazillion miles away from Jihadism but most of them also sympathize with anti-western attitudes due to decades of imperialism, American support for Israel and recent western meddling.
My concerns surround things like sectarian violence, stoning and the status of women, but I think these are naturally going to be addressed by the internal dialectic in Muslim countries, which for some decades has been attempting to reconcile European ideas with colonialist history and Islamic identity. In order for this process to occur, it must be felt and seen to develop naturally from within the Arab world.
I believe Islam can develop a theory of human rights and even democratic government without having either of these imposed by violence. Moreover, I recognize that Islam actually has a pretty solid history of treating minority populations extremely well, and that it can tap this history to overcome sectarian violence.
Meanwhile, people like you go around convinced Islam is evil and inherently violent, and hence fan the flames for wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. The War on Terror has been a massive failure which at this point is running the very real risk of becoming a War on Islam. As this happens, people will start gathering at the extremes of either side. Arabs will begin to suspect America really is a Great Satan meant to undermine Islam. Americans will start to think Islam really is Giant Columbine. War will result, and thousands of people will suffer and die.
>>231545
>My opinions change often due to a constant influx of reading
Then you had shit opinions to begin with, didn't you?
>So if the Romans asked Peter where Christ was he should have pointed at him?
You're confused about what Peter did. He was asked if he was an acquaintance/apostle of Christ, and it is painfully obvious that, yes, Peter *should not* have denied Christ.
>>231544
Nice, an article on "American Thinker" (what?") by James Arlandson (who?-- oh right, a conservative political commentator with 0 expertise in Islam). Great source mate, looks legit.
Anyhow, point-by-point
>Exception
A boy is running towards you with a grenade. Do you shoot him?
>Rape
Rape during conquests was a common phenomenon at this point in history. You would not be able to show that Islam is the cause of this, precisely because Islam strictly and explicitly forbids rape. But you could show there were rapists among the Muslim armies, and I would argue this is a product of times not Islam. You would also not be able to produce documentary evidence that rapes were ever ordered by Muhammad or the Prophets.
>Unending Violence
Non Muslim populations are explicitely protected in the Koran if they pay the jizzya. Even ISIS respects this law as regards Christian communities under their rule-- they are left alone if they pay the tax which, admittedly, can be high.
>Haven't found the five year old bit
probably because it doesn't exist.
>>231591
>A boy is running towards you with a grenade. Do you shoot him?
No.
>Rape during conquests was a common phenomenon at this point in history.
Encouraged by the muslim "prophet", whom all muslims take as the ultimate example. Muslims support rape.
>Non Muslim populations are explicitely protected in the Koran if they pay the jizzya
Oh boy! Just like the mafia! So benevolent!
>probably because it doesn't exist
I think it probably does.
>>231558
Yes, initially I suspected Islam was violent and evil and a particular threat among the Abrahamic faiths. I even recall being vaguely suspicious of girls in my class who wore the headscarf.
I'm asking you a hypothetical: if the Romans asked Peter where Christ was, the right thing for him to do would have been to be silent or to have lied. It's an obvious example where honesty makes no sense, except to fools who accidentally adopt universal ethical norms they don't actually hold during the course of an internet argument, because apparently saying with certainty something which is stupid is preferable to walking back an opinion to your mind.
>>231609
>Yes, initially I suspected Islam was violent and evil and a particular threat among the Abrahamic faiths
It *is*.
>>231605
Are you a pacifist?
>>231613
This post is purposeless. I'm glad I'm eating up several hours of your time at least.
>>231609
>I'm asking you a hypothetical: if the Romans asked Peter where Christ was, the right thing for him to do would have been to be silent
Probably being silent would have been best if Christ had not told Him to say otherwise. There is nothing dishonest about staying silent unless you have sinned against someone else and need to confess.
>or to have lied
No. That would not have been the right thing. That would have been the *WRONG* thing.
>>231616
Yes. I don't see why that's relevant.
>>231623
I enjoy arguing. More like I enjoy that you're wasting *your* time m8.
>>231635
We're both losers tonight, let's not kid ourselves. Despite having a million arguments on 4chan and knowing well that they never go anywhere, and having resolved to not bight bait, here I am again.
>>231629
We're arguing about just war, although you don't seem to recognize the general structure. Pacifism is a particular just war theory.
So you are opposed to any American action in Syria?
>>231653
>We're both losers tonight, let's not kid ourselves
I don't consider myself a loser engaging in those things I truly enjoy senpai.
>Pacifism is a particular just war theory
Pacifism is the stance that no violence is justified under any circumstances. It's not just "war"; it's *all* violence. While it has implications for just war theory, it extends beyond that and it not just a "particular just war theory".
>So you are opposed to any American action in Syria?
I'm opposed to any violent action. Insofar as people want to go there and help people - medical assistance, food drops, etc - I'm not opposed at all.
>>230038
>Like Christianity it also has a just war theory tradition which will develop and postulate ideas about when this proscription is subject to exemption. In most of the Islamic literature on this topic (which references Hadith and Quran) it's clear that Muhammad typically used warfare to defend the early Muslim community from enemies who threatened its existence.
How did they justify the expansion of the Caliphates? I doubt they were defending themselves from Spain to Pakistan.
>We need brakes. Now.
I'd agree, but I'm honestly afraid that we're in too deep.
>>231675
I've read Tolstoy, Yoder and Dorothy Day, you can save the lecture on Pacifism for someone else.
Anyways you're an odd sort of pacifist. Every pacifist I've ever met was committed to loving enemies and overcoming conflict with patience.
You are as deadly with these words and ideas as any weapon can be. Whether you wish for them to or not, your thoughts on Islam fan the flames of war. Watch that wicked tongue boy. Think about what it causes.
>>231678
My suspicion is that Muslim rulers were about as good at upholding Islam as Christian rulers-- not very. And furthermore I'm certain they twisted and stretched religious ideas for worldly purposes.
>>231695
I don't cause anything by my words but my words senpai.
What other people do is what other people do - the responsibility for their actions lies with them and them alone. The kind of mindset that blames some people for the actions of other people is why we have such absurdity in the world.
>>231708
>I don't cause anything by my words but my words
That contradicts the entire idea of Christian witness and the spoken Good News of Christ.
Moreover you cannot be pacifist in action and militant in speech. Your thoughts, the contents of your heart and your actions must all be pacifistic, and even then only as a penultimate goal, for pacifism is nothing but Agape in action.
You're a bad Christian to be saying these awful things about such a huge chunk of your fellow, God-beloved man. I'm not impressed by you. You strike me as petty.
>>231728
>That contradicts the entire idea of Christian witness and the spoken Good News of Christ.
Not at all. To evangelize is to front the message - what other people do or don't do with the message is entirely on them.
>>231728
>militant in speech
What? How can one even *be* "militant in speech"? You mean advocate violence? Because I don't ever and likely will never do that.
>>231736
Do you love Muslims?
>>231742
I love everyone, including anyone who believes they're a muslim. I don't love Islam, nor am I obligated to as a Christian.
>>231736
(The point is that speech is powerful. If one is serious about right and wrong, loving and hating, war and peace, then one is careful to consider the effect their speech has. Even when truth might stir violence, it is best not to speak, for Love and peace are greater truths than anything we can speak.)
>>231752
I think that kind of thinking is entirely incompatible with both free will and the conception of sin. One is not, nor even *CAN BE* responsible for the willful actions of others.
>>231705
>And furthermore I'm certain they twisted and stretched religious ideas for worldly purposes.
I'd probably agree with you. I just want to know which ideas they stretched.
>>231749
How can you say that so boldly? It's like you're pretending to be a Christian. And me, I aspire to love everyone and I fail every day. And I must work harder and harder to love my crooked neighbors with my crooked hearts, to love them as the persons they are rather than the fictitious ghosts in my mind.
Love is demanding and horrifying. It asks you to look deeper into your heart than you want, and to look past small evil to avoid great evil.
You know nothing about loving your Muslim brothers and sisters if you have not been busy searching your mind and heart for ways to love and understand them as they are, and you cannot possibly say it is a gesture of love to go around stepping all over their identity and their religion and accusing them of wickedness.
Let God judge them. Let you find a way to live alongside them. And let you not think that you, mere man, have the final say on Paths to God.
>>230170
I'm an Egyptian pharaoh and I'm black. All of my ancestors were black as well.
>>230091
When France invaded Algeria the locals also resorted to insurgency tactics.
The losing team plays dirty(er)
>>230355
>I think at this point the recolonizing the middle east is the only chance we have at any semblance of modernization within the next century.
>they're obviously too selfish to rule themselves and they suck at it when they try.
the irony is strong with this one
>>230516
>>230555
>>230661
except that the US could let solve the problem to those who are in power there, and just leave.
>>231757
If you give matches to a pyromaniac and he burns a house with it, it was still their choice but you enabled him because you were a retard. Same concept with inflammatory speech
>>229815
I dont have a problem so much with muslims as i do with arab muslims. Those fuckers are incompatible with the west and there can be no compromise. They have already proved that they cant exist here peacefully in large numbers
>>231771
>How can you say that so boldly?
Easily? What is your problem? Do you not think people can do such a thing? I'm not saying it's *EASY* to love everyone, but I certainly do, because I certainly *MUST*.
>You know nothing about loving your Muslim brothers and sisters if you have not been busy searching your mind and heart for ways to love and understand them as they are
They're horrible irredeemable sinners just like myself, who can only know salvation by the infinite mercy and grace of God. Their beliefs are warped and twisted in perversion and violence. They *are*. That's not an assault on *people* to say that. People are NOT the ideas they hold - attacking the ideas is not attacking the people. If you think it is then you conform to a completely untenable view in regard to intentionality, free will, and sin.
I hate you /his/ Islam is cancer why do you tolerate these threads.
>>231794
If you give matches to a pyromaniac with the intention that you want him to burn something you've sinned, because sin is just as much in intention and desire as it is in action. But the actual burning of the house is the pyromaniac's fault - *not* yours.
>>229815
>fiesta
>the murder of 153 people
You are not a good person, OP.
>>230138
Maybe just don't allow these people in, then, if that's what your CITIZENS are asking for.
>inb4 muh ebil euro/america, I'm neither
There's no fucking need to handle a national exodus, nor is there reason to take on hundreds of thousands of people per year when that does nothing to fiz their home countries.
>>229815
>massacring innocent civilians in crowded public places
>fiesta
What the fuck is wrong with you? Oh right, you're probably muslim. Fuck off
>>231771
>And let you not think that you, mere man, have the final say on Paths to God
You've never heard me argue with Catholics. That much is obvious.
>>231832
He's Eastern Orthodox.
>>231805
Islam is indeed cancer. The world would be much better off if it didn't exist.
>>231801
Your arrogant disposition and your hateful comments about Islam indicate that you know nothing of Muslims and hence cannot love them as anything but imaginary beings seized by false religion.
You know nothing of the meaning of love to proclaim you love everyone like some saint when you're a gutter dweller with a spiteful tongue that lashes out without care or concern for the effects of his words.
You have neither humility nor love in your heart. You are the worst kind of fool.
It wasn't actually muslims.
It was an inside job perpetrated by the French government.
>>231849
The fact that you conflate an attack on ideas with an attack on the people who hold them indicates you have the mental disposition of an obstinate child.
>>231854
>When something is too overwhelming to be described by words, sarcasm is sometimes employed in rather than weak-sounding words.
Maybe if you have autism
>>231861
many people have reasons to shoot up westerm cities, yet its only muslims as a group doing this
I've no problem with muslims. Its always been the extremist minority to paint Islam and the Arabs in a negative light. I believe most people have good hearts and souls. Unfortunately, the world today doesn't foster positive interaction with people, and I fear that my son one day will grow to be ignorant and hateful. I think every religion has its flaws, but to consider one worse than the others is childish. Faith is faith. The only rules I follow are simple: Be kind to others, and always be thankful for everything you have.
>>231891
>>231891
>muh relativism
>muh false equivalencies
>>231868
I'm not very interested in historical arguments though. Is there some philosophy going on in that thread?
My reasoning for not holding historical arguments in very high regard is because general church structure emerged after Christ - it was a function of men trying to organize things as best they thought they could in order to spread the Word. Whether or not churches were structured in x way or y way to begin with doesn't really have anything to do with the theological claims about truth stemming from any party.
Anyone else notice how every defence of Islam is centered around a 'no true scotsman' fallacy
>ISIS IS NOT TRUE ISLAM
>THEY ONLY CALL THEMSELVES THE ISLAMIC STATE AND QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE QURAN
Also notice how no muslim spiritual leaders are apologizing or showing solidarity with victims in any of these attacks, but rather distancing themselves from the attackers? Meanwhile, people are still telling the catholic church to apologize for shit like the spanish inquisition. Pretty fucking unbelievable, im sick of this hypocritical muslim shit.
>>231867
There's a study which shows that liberal people don't emotionally react to horrifying images, while conservative people do.
This, incidentally, is also a test they use to determine if you're a psychopath.
So it's not necessarily autism.
>>231895
That's nice, you have a picture depicting negative outcomes.
Perhaps you'll post a fish with a banana sticking out of its mouth? It would make the same impact on my opinion on faith and life.
>>231859
I love her, and she loves Islam, she loves God through Islam. I do not chastise her with harsh words, for it burns her heart like a hot brand.
I am silent when I watch her pray now, and slowly her strange, heathen bows become beautiful, graceful prayer. And I am struck by the sense that God is the God of us all, that her Allah is my God.
Knowing that man is saved through Christ, I wish for her to become a sheep in His fold. If she is to come to know Christ it will not be through my words. Christ does not occur to man as painful, harsh critique and scathing tongue. She must see Christ in my life, she will see Christ in my patience and my silence. I will pray and hope, and I will love, and that is all.
When people ask me about her I will testify to her goodness. When they ask me about her faith I will shrug my shoulders. Why speak to things man cannot yet know?
>>231849
But I have found that Islam teaches that you *are* to conflate attacks on ideas with attacks on people, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at all that you hold that position as well - according to the muslim book, you're supposed to.
>>231899
There's some theology. I mean, fuck just come to the thread and post those things. I just don't see why Islam shitposting won't stop while my thread with 7 sources gets like 8 responses.
>>231918
>I do not chastise her with harsh words
Chastising something someone happens to believe =/= chastising that someone. This is *REALLY* not hard to understand.
>>231914
WANT TO PROVIDE A RESPONSE TO THE DATA RETARD
THINK HARD IF MOST MUSLIMS SUPPORT EXTREMISM
ITS NOT A SMALL MINORITY THATS A PROBLEM IS IT
>>231908
well this takes the cake for dumbest shit I've read all day
>>231918
This, my friend. This is the exact definition of Loving your fellow man.
>>231926
You type in caps. Are you Autistic or Deaf? You don't have to show it with capslock.
>>231891
Its shitbags like you that allowed society to become like this and that will allow it to get worse. Fucking c.uck
>>231942
It only gets worse when you realize that not everyone has to resort to hating something. I've been poisoned by hate and anger for too long in my life. My time in the army changed me for the worse. I had to rediscover who I was. There's no point in being so angry over a generalization. Be angry at the specifics itself. If you learned how to do that, you wouldn't come off as an ignorant racist.
>>231891
>I think every religion has its flaws
You've just insulted Islam.
>>231964
>You've just insulted Islam.
Good. It deserves nothing but to be insulted.
>>231964
I meant every religion except Islam ofendee.
>>231783
I'm every Roman emperor and I'm Anglo Saxon. Everyone who ever lived in the Empire was.
>>230058
>If Islam "lends itself particularly well to extremism" then why is Islamic terrorism a late 20th century phenomenon?
it;s not
look up Skull tower on wikipedia
theyve been savages from the beginning
>>231964
And? By proxy I've insulted every religion. You're missing the point; Faiths are flawed because people are flawed. Doesn't that put everyone on an even keel? And if that's the case, shouldn't we bring each other up by being the best that we can offer not only ourselves, but others?
>>231968
>says the retarded tripfag
>>230100
>The days of them launching large-scale invasions or raids,
what do you think the "migrant refugee crisis" is?
why are there 99% males coming to Europe? you can be damn sure that there population is not 99% male 1% female
>>231986
>By proxy I've insulted every religion
Other religions can be insulted in this way because they have been corrupted, but Islam cannot.
To say that Islam has flaws is to place yourself above Allah by judging as bad what he has decreed good.
>>231986
>And if that's the case, shouldn't we bring each other up by being the best that we can offer not only ourselves, but others?
An "ought" doesn't follow from an "is".
>>231956
>muh near death experience changed me
>now im a hippie c.uck and anyone who has different views is an ignorant racist
I get it, idealism is great. It's all flowery and makes you feel like a special snowflake. But pragmatism is the only system that really matters. When you have a group of people invading you, sucking at your social benefits, demanding more money and mounting terrorist attacks weekly, its time to remove that problem. A hundred years ago, if there was this much shit coming from a group of people, they wouldve just been deported or killed depending where you lived. But 'ITS 2015:DD' as john oliver likes to remind us, and for some reason we all have to be limp wristed faggots and take all this shit up the ass? Fuck that. Ive had it with this faggot nonsense
