what went wrong, /his/?
>inb4 socialism
It literally was a combination of socialism and the fact that they relied heavily on oil
/thread
>>1377318
>Suffered from extreme capital flight
>Rely on oil to prop up economy
>Tried to solve the capital flight with hairbrained currency swap scheme
>Currency swap scheme creates a bubble
>Bubble bursts when oil prices fall
Contrary to popular belief, it took more than "feeding poor people" to ruin Venezuela's economy. Shit was falling apart at the seams for decades.
>>1377318
Chavez killed manufacturing and made the economy rely exclusively on oil. When oil prices went dowm,Maduro was forced to print money to keep the clienteralist structure,creating tons of inflation. So pretty much socialism
Venezuela and the rest of Latin America have been meme countrys since independence, doomed from the start. Should have stayed united as one huge nation desu.
>>1377318
Building their economy on oil.
Socialism.
I'm brazilian, i know socialist policies better than anyone
Google "Foro de São Paulo". It's a big commie party
>>1377388
>have been meme countrys since independence, doomed from the start.
Cuba and Argentina were doing great until socilist policies were implemented
There's not much to tell? Monoculture economy (oil), they put everything into social programs without investing anything in non-oil industry, then start hitting the points from the Socialist Dictator Playbook like "nationalize things and give them to your cronies" and "seize the assets of international companies/investors."
So while oil prices are high, everything is great. But when they start dropping, the money runs out, there's no backup industries and nobody wants to invest in the country because the government will just steal it. Again taking pages from the Socialist Dictator Playbook, the government has started "violent repression of opposition/people who want food" and "increasingly unstable president-for-life screams 'Everything is fine!' on his personal TV channel."
I've got a few friends (via online gaming) who've gotten out over the past months. One of them tweeted a photo from his flight passing over Puerto Cabello (the largest port in the country), it was entirely empty, no cargo containers or ships at all.
>>1377412
Cuba was embargoed, and Argentina is the worst America.
>>1377412
>socialism was a downgrade from Batista
I don't have a favorable view of communism/socialism, but that's fucking wrong.
>>1377416
Can you please tell us more?
>>1377412
BRAZIL WAS GREAT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB4tN2LnDfI
Why so many different types of mexicans so easily drawn to actual socialism?
>>1377318
>inb4 socialism
That doesn't defeat that fact that it was actually socialism.
NOT REAL SOCIALISM!
Phew. I'm glad I took that out of the way. Now we can proceed to discuss how capitalism has failed once again and how socialism is more relevant than ever.
Check-mate, capitalists.
Capitalists BTFO XD.
How to differentiate between real and fake socialism? If it works, than it's real socialism. If not, than it isn't.
What if we try a thousand times, always resulting in mass casualties, and it it still doesn't work?
Blame capitalism. Rinse. Repeat.
>>1377318
They didn't know how to use the oil money to create a strong economy and instead just used it to fund their populist shit.
>>1378135
Socialists never learn, they just kill off the high IQ borgeous then beg them to help out after the economy collapses. I never understood why it's perfectly acceptable for people to consider themselves socialists and not be considered evil (100,000,000+ murdered) but being a neo-nazi (11,000,000) is literally considered the most evil ideology?
>>1377384
like there was manufacturing, or agricultural in Venezuela before chavez.
>>1378211
People here talk like Venezuela was a paradise before 2000. It was the same third world shithole that is now just with a worse inequality gap.
>>1378211
>Hurr
He didn't invest shit on developing the economy, he literally relied on oil to pay for everything and made no investments on ensuring future economic stability.
>B-but muh bolivarianism
Suck a dick you mongrel dipshit.>>1378220
>>1378233
what is the point of your pic?
>>1378220
>Muh shithole
He drove the country into an economic sinkhole. Before Venezuela had a future, the oil money could've fueled actual growth and development but instead it was wasted on his shit policies, they wasted the opportunity and now they are paying the price.
>Income inequality
Literally has no bearing on anything at this point. All the pretty populistic bullshit in the world won't save you from poor economic planning.
>>1378237
That he wasted the period where oil money was abundant and left the economy to rot.
If your policies don't have the future in min, but rather getting popular support, then they are idiotic.
And also because you made the claim Chavez gave them industry. Which is fucking retarded.
It's time to stop.
>>1377318
>that face
>>1377318
Socialists.
>>1378156
Socialism doesn't mean totalitarian dictatorship by default. But since most countries that are prone to revolutions are instable in general and don't have any effective counterchecks for violent takeovers, that's just what most socialist regimes end up looking like. Plus socialist policies further a dictator's popular support (or silent approval) by a ton compared to just admitting that yes, the new regime is a fuckton worse than the last.
Also, the Soviet Union heavily urged other socialist nations to follow their strand of socialism and forget all the alternatives, under threat of violence. This was proved in Prague in 1956, and shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that it helped mold how the future would look like for socialism worldwide.
Also, regarding USSR: if the state apparatus lies to its people on a number of things and runs a totalitarian form of government, chances are very high that they're lying about them being socialist, too.
>>1377318
over reliance on oil alongside retarded money games created a tenuous situation that exploded into this shit. Although socialism would have created pretty shit conditions anyway after time, the reason it got this bad was not socialism but rather government incompetence.
The main thing right now is the drop in the price of oil.
The secondary issue as much as I can gather is foreign currency reserves global capital hostility to Venezuela. With the collapse of their main trading gate key in oil they have diffuculty importing things. This is a HUGE problem because like most modern countries Venezuela depends on certain foreign imports to keep the whole of their economy going. If you want a tractor for example certain machine parts if not the whole machine itself are not made locally. The problem is that they don't have a lot to trade to back up the value their currency for exchange with Germany or Brazil for those tractor parts. Normally the solution to this sort of situation is to make loans but global capital/investors really do not like or trust Venezuela.
The currency has also gone crazy due to the government's attempts to fight hoarders by instituting price controls. The exact nature and origin of this is still confusing to me but I do believe it's a really issue despite what the MSM would want to report. There was some sort of initial spark that caused local economy difficulties such as local farmers not being able to compete with global firms. Richer hoarders would buy up controlled imports (the government's response to not being able to compete with foreign products) and start selling them at marked up prices on a growing black market. The end result of this war between regulation on money and imports and rich, corrupt, or connected opportunist was a broken exchange rate and inflation. This makes Venezuela even more distrusted and isolated by the global market.
They need imports and foreign capital to keep things running smoothly on the quality of life they expect but it wont come. Oil used to be the golden ticket that would never be turned down but it's fallen through recently and at the same time they've fallen on hard times with a drought.
*might all be wrong. Not an expert AT ALL.
>>1378441
Should've stopped spouting retarded demagoguery about how the world is against you and you are bulwark against evil capitalists theb.
Maybe instead fucking invest in internal infrastructure and set up a stronger industry.
Maybe even tried to get good relations and deals with other nations instead of antagonizing everyone except the other demagogues of latin america.
But no, he had the golden ticket as you said, and thus all that could've been done wasn't because of pure unadulterated ideology.
>>1378421
As Marx himself has stated, socialism will always require a violent revolution and dictatorship of the proletariat, because other than the useful idiots intellectuals and poor people nobody would be willing to hand over their rightful earnings and property to the government or "the people"
equalism and money
People know we can't be equal yet goverments keep on shoving it down our throats
>>1377412
>Cuba and Argentina were doing great until socilist policies were implemented
Let's forget the fact that Cuba is embargoed by the motherfucking USA
>>1377318
This was a corrupt country even before Chavez
Everything went downhill after Rómul Betancur and the oil money squandering began.
>>1378027
When will this meme die?
>>1378846
>embargoed is the same thing as not being allowed to trade with the rest of the world, say EU, latin america or ASEAN
you know nothing
Decades of shitty economic policy. Socialism had nothing to do with it. The economy was always shit and only got worse over time. A collapse was inevitable.
>>1378886
>Embargoed by one of the biggest and nearest superpower will totally not put huge dent in your economy
>>1377318
>completely oil based economy
>NATO fucks with oil prices to destabilize Russia
>Venezuela falls as collateral damage
>>1378892
>Socialism had nothing to do with it
>>1378904
>we have billions upon billions of dollars in free money
>still manage to turn into Venezuela
Nigga when Saudi Arabia is doing a better job than you, you know you got problems.
>>1378899
so? why did those caribbean retards would not trade with the resto of the world? the only recipients of the embargo is the AMERICAN companies.
>>1378904
>NATO fucks with oil prices
did not know that saudi arabia and iran were also in the NATO
>>1378914
*are
>>1378911
Saudi Arabia is the one fucking with oil prices. They stock a huge surplus in reserve, then USA and UK tell them when to unload it all on the market, tanking the prices while collecting a huge injection of cash.
>>1378919
Saudi Arabia might as well be, they are in bed with England and America.
Although its hard to say who's on top.
>>1377318
an old latin american thing called caudillismo mixed with socialism as perceived by literal imbeciles
>>1378939
>as perceived by literal imbeciles
how's that?
With all the bombastic news articles stating Venezuela proves socialism is retarded, can someone tell me what are the differences between UK and Venezuela?
Both seem about the same in terms of socialism.
>>1378914
No money or connections. It is hard to make those when US motherfucking A won't trade with you
>>1378946
Chavez, to begin with. An army captain with infantile political notions. Or Maduro, a former bus driver.
>>1378220
>>1378211
>Former minister Gerver Torres points out that in 1998 oil represented 77 percent of Venezuela's exports but by 2011 oil represented 96 percent of exports. That means today only around 4 percent of the goods that Venezuela exports are non-oil products! The Venezuelan economy relies almost exclusively on the price of oil and the ability of the government to spend oil revenues. This will take years to reverse because of item two below.
You should shut the fuck up if you have no clue about what you are talking about. Venezuela was slowly moving away from oil,and when Chavez came oil became everything.
>>1378972
So the only difference between Venezuela and UK that you can name is that UK allows for foreign investors to setup companies in it?
>>1378899
>Embargoed by one of the biggest and nearest superpower will totally not put huge dent in your economy
Franco was embargoed by more countries,and Spain grew way faster than Cuba in the same period. Castro just turned Cuba into an unproductive shithole that relied on Soviet aid
>>1378972
You are trying very hard to rationalize here, instead of admitting that the USA starved Venezuela, while Saudi Arabia tanked oil prices (on behalf of the USA).
>>1378960
>Both seem about the same in terms of socialism.
>>1378976
Venezuela fixes prices,the UK doesnt.
Venezuela siezes private property,the UK doesnt
Venezuela controls imports and production,the UK doesnt
Venezuela bans and expropiates companies that show disagreement with the system,while the UK doesnt.
And the list goes on.
>>1378972
Many countries have nationalized industries.
The thing with Venezuela is that Chavez expropriated citizens private properties and made a show of it
>>1378991
No.
You're the one trying very hard to circumvent the facts. Both are corrupt countries sporting themselves as welfare societies.
>>1379011
In which proportion? More than 50% are state companies? less than 50%?
>>1378904
>Saudi Arabia is part of NATO
fug
>>1378991
>the USA starved Venezuela, while Saudi Arabia tanked oil prices (on behalf of the USA).
Iran incorporating into the market without sanctions had quite an impact on oil prices. Things like engine efficientcy,makes oil less valueable too. Besides,the "target" was Russia,not a poor shithole without toilet paper
>>1379015
The facts are these:
1. Venezuela is an oil based economy.
2. The USA doesn't trade with Venezuela and wants to see it break down.
3. The oil prices dropped rapidly about the same time Russia decided to be active, caused by Saudi Arabia, a USA ally, selling its oil reserves.
Thats where facts end, and I feel you are moving further away from them when talking about spanish hotels and toilet paper prices, than you need to. They paint a pretty picture by themselves.
>>1379021
Venezuela was collateral damage, a pleasant surprise, a small fish that also got caught in the net with the big one.
>>1379019
>In which proportion?
90% of the productive economy is owned by the state in Venezuela,mining,oil and energy production,mostly.
>>1379028
> The USA doesn't trade with Venezuela
but it does
https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/venezuela
>>1379031
>a pleasant surprise, a small fish that also got caught in the net with the big one.
The US doesnt give a shit about Venezuela. Their oil quality is pretty low,and they produce nothing of their own.
>>1378983
Was Spain more tied to USA in terms of trade than Cuba?
>>1379028
>the usa doesn't trade with venezuela
Source: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113462.pdf
Stop blaming others for those caribbean subhuman's faults
>>1379032
And what's your conclusion about state ownership of companies?
>>1379028
>1. Venezuela is an oil based economy.
True,Chavez only made it worse,killing other productive sectors.
>2. The USA doesn't trade with Venezuela and wants to see it break down.
False. The US is one of the main trade partners of Venezuela.
>3. The oil prices dropped rapidly about the same time Russia decided to be active, caused by Saudi Arabia, a USA ally, selling its oil reserves.
You are forgetting about Iran,which now trades without sanctions,and I doubt that Iran planned on sabotaging Venezuela. The Saudis are just desperate to kill the oil competition,as they managed very poorly their economy.
>>1379043
The US was 50% ofbthe world's economy at that time. Everyone relied upon themm
>>1379039
>what is Roosevelt's imperialism
>what is the naval blockade of 1902
The USA very much cares about Venezuela.
And a bankrupt Venezuela being added as another state in the USA is very much in the power politics plans of the people in charge there.
Very hard to do, but very worthwhile if possible.
>>1379059
>And what's your conclusion about state ownership of companies?
In terms of production it was awful. Mining completly die,and most of the oil money was spent very poorly. They also killed the little industry that the country had,and made Venezula rely just on oil
>>1379069
>2016
>still bringing examples about 114 years before
you well just can bring a knife to a gun fight and die only to make a point
>>1379069
pfffff
in the cold war Venezuela was a more or less valuable ally to contain Cuba (that´s why Venezuela has F-16 jets), but now? another state? wtf?
>>1379069
>The USA very much cares about Venezuela.
Not really. Venezuela is a very small player even at a regional scale. The oil of Venezuela is trash tier,and is the only thing that Venezuela produces
>>1379074
>list Venezuela as embargoed.
No, they list some venezuelan officials and some of their relatives as accomplices of drug trafficking, that's very different. those people alone are not the whole country
>>1379074
>What are these money going there?
Venezuela exports raw oil to America and the US treats the oil
>>1379069
>implying America would even accept Venezuela as a state if they asked to join
We're not that fucking stupid, anon.
>>1379093
Has the USA ever rejected anyone wanting to join?
>>1379095
Canada. Multiple times
>>1379095
>Has the USA ever rejected anyone wanting to join?
Puerto Rico
>>1379100
>Canada. Multiple times
Source?
>>1379095
We're in the process of telling Puerto Rico to fuck off, and we made Utah give up polygamy before we'd let them in.
In general, no poorfags, and nobody who we think will upset the current political balance.
>>1379102
That wasn't rejected, its just being delayed because lol bureaucracy.
>>1379107
>Utah give up polygamy before we'd let them in.
Wasn't Utah alredy a state,that was just hijacked by mormons?
>>1379110
The GOP doesn't want them, because it would mean a new, deep blue state.
>>1379118
Yeah.
Conveniently, LDS decided that polygamy wasn't in their religion any more after the US told them they wouldn't be allowed into the union until they banned it.
>>1379100
Canada burnt down the white house last time the Americans tried.
If there is anything the Québécois hate more than the English it is the Yankees.
>>1379193
British Marines from Bermuda burnt down the White House. Not Canadians. Though on the upside that means the Canadians don't have to take responsibility for the numerous rapes and murders committed by the British raiding parties along the Atlantic coast, or that they also burned down the Library of Congress.
>>1378971
hahaha for decades Venezuela depended on oil, but just before the oligarchy is thrown away it was becoming the tech superpower of the future.
This book which was included in /pol/'s recommended reading list might remind people of why things are the way they are today and why the US can't be trusted.
https://youtu.be/fSBMXsx1O6I
>>1379719
why cant be trusted the good old Us?
Socialism, socialism, and also socialism
>>1379719
Libcuck propaganda.
>>1379738
Because one of these will get shafted right up your economy's anus.
>>1379759
nothing new under the sun
>>1379756
Guess that makes you a libcuck as well.
>inb4 not a /pol/tard
>How you want your economy pham?
>>1379787
>Ayn Rand
smugtrashmanpenn.jpg
>>1379719
kek anyone who actually believed the timeline of events of that book is not too smart
>>1379851
I don't know the specific case for Venezuela, but I'm gonna pop in here and say that chart can be positive as well as negative.
Clearly because they were a banana republic.
You can't expect to have a functioning society when the only profitable thing you do is oil exports, because even if the OECD has failsafes for oil not fluctuating like gold or silver, even a percentile decrease might destroy your economy.
>>1380163
OPEC, I meant to say of course.*
>>1378241
>Venezuela had a future, the oil money could've fueled actual growth and development
Like it had the 60+ years before Chavez?
Oil became a lerger part of GDP much due to the fact that oil prices rose sharply in the early 2000s.
Populist dicatorship.
t. Venezuelan.
>>1377318
lol
>>1379044
No one was apologizing, you communist fuck.
>>1379084
The US cares very much about their backyard-countries showing signs of independence. Why else would they stomp onCuba so hard, even before Castro alligned them with the USSR? Or Guatemala before that, not to mention all the other "interventions in Latin America the last two centuries.
Doesn't matter now, because things are about to start going right
>>1380269
Lol, when? It only gets worse every single day.
>>1380294
we have to wait for full collapse before we can 'liberate' another country
>>1380328
Are you gonna invade Venezuela? That's pretty fucked up.
>>1380347
It's their only hope at this point
They need to be invaded, occupied and forced to accept austerity. Brutal capitalist dictatorship, a la Pinochet.
20 years of that an Venezuela will be a prosperous first world country
>>1378211
It's not like the governments previous to Chávez were free market capitalists. The whole idea that before him the country was governed by rightists is a meme. Venezuela has always been a playground for the Latin American left.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Presidency_of_Carlos_Andr%C3%A9s_P%C3%A9rez
>His policies, including the nationalization of the iron and petroleum industries, investment in large state-owned industrial projects for the production of aluminium and hydroelectric energy, infrastructure improvements, and the funding of social welfare and scholarship programs, were extremely ambitious and involved massive government spending, to the tune of almost $53 billion.
>in 1975 he nationalized the iron industry, and in 1976 he jumped further and nationalized the oil industry. Since by that time Venezuela was equipped to manage it, not much harm was done by that in itself, but with all the new collaterals that the government could offer, Pérez, after having gone through the "surplus" for investments, started taking out international loans and not small ones but sizable ones. Pérez "statized" the Venezuelan economy to such a degree that the load of paperwork to open a business was so heavy that a service branch was created called "permisologia" (approximately, the "science" of permits), to which businessmen had to recur as a matter of course if they wanted to get the necessary bureaucratic approval. Permisologia was not meant to deter foreigners, and it was more burdensome on Venezuelan small entrepreneurs than on any other economic sector. Leftists were in a dazzled quandary because, on one hand, they disliked Pérez, but, on the other, they couldn’t complain about the state's interference because that was part of their own social and economic agenda. Labor unions, which in Venezuela were corrupt and pervasive and AD-managed, stood solidly behind Pérez.
>>1380362
>Venezuela refusing food aid from other socialist countries because "EVERYTHING IS FINE! THERE ARE NO FOOD SHORTAGES!"
>"this is a capitalist jewmerican conspiracy!" says the "anti-imperialist" with a suspiciously shaved head
>>1377318
Latin American here
Venezuela is a fertile country with a good geography, it isnt doomed to only produce oil like Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia.
Chavez, everything that Colombia produced, Venezuela can do it too.
Chavez wanted to have absolute power over Venezuelans, the way he did it was destroying the private sector with nationalizations and confiscations, and making Oil (which is owned by the State) the only source of income in the country.
That way everyone would be directly or indirectly dependent on the State.
That worked when oil price was extremely high, but once the pice of oil fell a lot because of the conflict of Saudi Arabia (who begun pumping a lot) with Iran and Russia about Syria, the whole economy collapsed.
Right now Venezuela is the biggest problem of Latin America.
The Kitchners of Argentina tried to do the same Chavez did, but failed because Argentina's main source of income is its agricultural exports, comparable to those of Australia or New Zeland, and that agricultural production is not in the hand of the State but in the hands of over a hundred thousand people.
Chavism can only be done if the State controls the main source of income of the country.
>>1377426
over a million spaniards emmigrated to Cuba before communism.
After communism millions of Cubans emmigrated, the country is a totalitarian dictatorship, the infrastructure is from the 1950s, and the cities are in ruins.
for decades the soviet union gave billions every year to Cuba, Fidel spent it in havint the 10th army in the world, and wars in Angola and latin american.
Oil money makes folks stupid
stupid folks get even stupider
the Saudi's aren't too keen in reinvesting their oil money into social welfare, apart from that welfare cheque known as "the army" (not to insult anyone currently in any other army, just the saudi one), so they've got a cash reserve to fall back on during oil downturns like these.
>>1381304
>seize the means of production and hand them off to people with political connections
>every industry in the country is now severely mismanaged
This isn't rocket surgery.
>>1381311
Do the workers have the control of their workplaces ? Do the workers own the means of production ?
I don't think it's appriopriate to call this ''Socialism'' or ''Communism''
Casta. Only correct answer.
>>1381311
>seize the means of production
This didn't happen. Stop getting your political knowledge from memes you saw on the internet.
>>1380835
And? Batista basically ran the country as his personal plantation and sold out his country to American corporations and the literal mafia while turning it into a police state and killing thousands of people.
>>1377388
As someone from the US I would like to say that you are clueless. At the time of its independence Mexico had a after larger Economy and population then that of US. They had a much better army as well. In the late 19th century Mexico and all of the major south american counties were doing well. Before the Mexican revolution 1910 Mexico city was viewed by Europeans as the Nicest city in the New world.
>>1381645
>This didn't happen.
Yes it did. Oil,mining and energy production was nationalized,and manufacturing was nationalized or killed through regulations. Venezuela's economy is run by the state.
>>1381947
>the US I would like to say that you are clueless. At the time of its independence Mexico had a after larger Economy and population then that of US.
The army was a joke in reality,as it was shown in the Mexican-American wat.
>>1381697
how is that worse than what happened to Cuba since the 50s.
There are degrees in "bad", Pinochet bad kills 10.000, Pol Pot bad kills half of the country.
What the Cubans chose was far worse than Batista.
By the way, Cuba is still a country that depends on tourism, whose inhabitants are very willing to prostitute themselves, although now they do it for stuff like tooth paste. Even in that way the situation is worse than during the times of Batista.
>>1382663
>Pol Pot bad kills half of the country.
Ehh, more like a quarter of the country if we're being exact here.
>>1382758
estimates are 1 and a half to 3 million people
>>1378569
>it's a "liberal yet again fails to understand the difference between private property and personal property" episode
ITT: People who don't understand what socialism means. Socialism is 1) seizing the means of production and giving them to the workers and 2) the abolition of private property. What you idiots are thinking of is social democracy or welfare statism, which just prolongs the suffering of those under capitalism.
Colombia = extreme right wing neo liberal shithole
Venezuela = extreme left wing socialist shithole
I wonder what's the diference, but can't see it.
>>1385300
>it's an "idiot commie is going to split hairs and engage in pedantry to defend his failed ideology" episode
>>1385417
Colombia has been improving for the last 15 years, Venezuela has been getting worse.
>>1385366
>Prolongs suffering
I guess that's why people that live in social democracies are some of the happiest people on earth?
>>1385417
Nothing wrong with neoliberalism
Colombia > Venezula
>>1385300
>There is a distinction between private and personal property
>>1382663
Pinochet only killed 3000 people
I think you'll find that just like every other """socialist""" country, it is really just a puppet of American Capitalism. Even if it looks like Socialism it's actually just Capitalism. The answer to failing "socialism" is more socialism. Since communism is inevitable it doesn't matter how many people we kill because we're on the "right side of History".
>>1380269
God bless Friedman
>>1386868
Francis Fukuyama would like to have a word with you m8y
>>1386858
>Nothing wrong with neoliberalism
It is literally the modern slavery
>>1388016
>It is literally the modern slavery
>>1377388
Ever heard of Uruguay?
>>1377318
corruption, reliance on oil, centralized economic planning
>>1388031
That guy looks like a typical libertarian though.
>>1377318
They didn't listen to me
>>1377318
An inability to diversify their economy. Venezuela has always had this problem since their independence.
>>1389211
