![IslamicWorld850[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/XERKABM.png "IslamicWorld850[1].png")
What caused the Islamic civilization to stagnate? What went wrong?
>>1367866
after some centuries, the people they conquer end up converting to Islam to avoid paying taxes/to advance socially/ to eliminate debts/or to avoid being persecuted by the fanatic ruler every islamic nation eventually gets.
Islamic golden age is what happens in the first centuries of an islamic conquest when most of the conquered population hasnt converted to Islam yet.
>>1367907
i thought they still pay some jizyah tax or shit?
>>1367917
they stop paying it when they convert to Islam.
I am not a racist. I really think that without Islam, the middle east and north africa would be at least as well off as Southern Europe.
For me it is a South Korea/North Korea situation, it is their culture that fucks them, not their race.
Lebanese christians and Armenians do very well in wester countries and they are middle eastern. The wealthiest man in the work half of the time Carlos Slim (a lebanese christian) of Mexico.
>>1367926
1.) Jizyah is the non-Muslim equivalent of the zakat. Muslim or not, you're paying a tax either way.
2.) Most, if not all "Golden Age" polymaths were born Muslims. To insinuate the Islam is the root cause of everything bad in the region is blatant sophistry at worst and plain old ignorance at best.
If the ottomans had managed to win the battle of Vienna and subsequently conquered Germany + central europe, this is what Hitler said on this topic;
"Hitler said that the conquering Arabs would in the long run have been unable to contend with the harsher climate of the country. They could not have kept down the more vigorous natives, so that ultimately not Arabs but Islamized Germans could have stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire."
The Arabs kept getting conquered and outshone by others( Persians, Turks, Mongols, etc.) which didn't fit with their extreme narcissism so they became paranoid and self-destructive.
>>1367943
This, while probably not the answer to the OP's question, is true.
Arabs have a terribly misguided sense of nationalism. A common accusation of disliked groups in the Middle East is that they're backed by foreign forces (Iran, West, etc)
It's no wonder why Salafism, an ideology that says "literally kill everyone who is even slightly different from you" is so popular among mainstream Sunni Arabs
>>1367958
Nationalism and Salafism are polar opposites brother.
>>1367866
Sardinia and Corsica were never conquered by muslims.
>>1367946
its funny because here in malaysia, they only mention one or twosentence of how the abbasids fell, at least in the history textbooks
Himmler liked islam. It's pretty traditionalist
>>1367965
On paper, sure. In practice, it sets up a Sunni supremacy which makes an enemy of whoever is different.
Perhaps nationalism isn't the right word, but you get the idea.
They ran out of other peoples' money to spend.
Couldn't get any deeper into Europe to loot and tax.
Europeans started sailing around the world for trade goods.
Look at the modern muslim world. You have countries with oil and gas that are doing well. Then you have those with out that are poor shitholes.
Too bound up in the culture of desert-dwelling horse niggers. Arab culture can sustain a society of nomadic tribals. It cannot sustain a world-spanning civilization. You'll note that the vast majority of great and influential Islamic thinkers were Persian.
This isn't a full answer, but a big part of it is that Mongols genocided the fuck out of Persia, where the vast majority of the Islamic Golden Age's advances had taken place.
Also, gulf arab culture has never been known for its work ethic. Even today, a massive problem in Saudi Arabia is worker productivity. It's basically a welfare state, and they're running out.
>>1367934
>Dhimmis didn't have to pay more
>Persian culture had absolutely no influence, nay, it was the Islam that made them smart n science n shit
stop.
cough fundamentalism cough
>>1367866
Mongols.
The Islamic world is a lot like late Roman empire.
Over extension causes fragmentation, strongmen rise up in different regions with strong followings, the majority of its empire becomes one religion, shifting concepts of politics, and foreign invasions. Eventually it just turns into fragmented states that only remain linked due to sharing the religion that once made their empire.
>>1368980
>Dhimmis were exempt from military service
>Of course Persians had a huge influence, but it was an Islamic empire and they were Muslims. The reason for the Golden age was cultural fusion under a stable empire which united its people under a common faith.
If Byzantines had managed to conquer the Sassanids the same thing would have probably happened.
>>1367866
>ctrl+f dicovery and utilization of the Americas and the Western Route East, making the Middle East and its dangers redundant for trade networks.
>0 Results
/his/ = Religious/Political Shitposting.
>>1369035
That began when the mid east was already in serious decline though. It was Ottoman time by then and Egypt, Iraq etc were just dusty hasbeens.
>>1367866
Any answer that isn't the mongols is objectively wrong.
Mongorians
Also the violent reaction to the Crusades, more hardline Muslims began to gain support over the more liberal and cosmopolitan ones of before, so cultural centres like say Jerusalem which previously had Christians and Jews living with muslim leaders began to stagnate
theres loads of reasons really, its like asking why Rome fell, theres no sole reason
>>1369043
Before it the middle east was loadef because of the spice trade.
>>1369060
>A western invasion of the middle east causes a large amount of muslims to take up extremist stances, creating a civil war in their countries completely weakening and destabilising them so that they become dusty shitholes
History really does repeat over and over.
printing press
>>1367866
The christians became a minority in the islamic in the XIIIth century, then the islamic world became entirely muslims and became a shithole filled with fanaticism.
>>1369118
islamic world*
>>1367941
Not even with Vienna as base could Ottomans stand a chance.
Buda was on par with Vienna before Ottoman conquest and they still couldn't-didn't use it as a base, in fact Ottoman armeis didn't have any base whatsoever in all of Balkans beyond Istanbul, the whole approach of Ottoman military and logistics constrained their operational timeframe.
>>1367866
inbreeding
>>1367941
>Islamized Germans
absolutelyterrifying.png
With Islamic zeal nothing would stop them.
>>1369150
thats basically what Chechens are, the product of giving Europeans Islamic zeal
>>1367941
Was Hitler retarded? He did know Arabs aren't Banana trees right? They won't wither and die in anything under 15C
>>1369150
Only worse thing I could think of are Islamic communist Japanese
>>1369175
Hitler is talking about distance from centre of power, harsher climate is just a metaphor.
>>1367866
Their constant cousin marriages have fucked their gene pool. That and the lack of education throughout the entire region leads them to becoming retarded jihadists en masse and being giant pains in the ass when they migrate to other nations because they have no skills and a retarded inbred culture.
That's why the ME is fucked, they are literally breeding themselves stupid
>>1368980
More? It was really cheap, especially that no matter how rich you are, you would still pay the same amount and you get the advantage of staying at home doing business while every the majority of male Muslims are at war.
While zakat is 2.5% of your welfare, which can be more significant.
>>1368348
This a thousand times
I spent last summer in Saudi, and holy fuck are the people there so fucking lazy. It's a constant competition for government jobs, because they come with so many bonuses and perks, as well as good pay and the ability to leave your place of work just after noon.
A large problem among the younger population there is that they're betting everything they have on getting the government jobs.Which includes going to expensive foreign schools, bribery, and a whole slew of other shady backdoor deals to secure them a lucrative career in doing jack shit for extreme pay and status.
>>1367965
>Nationalism and Salafism are polar opposites brother.
Not really. They just define the nation differently, like, Iraq or Syria vs Ahl as Sunnah or the Ummah.
>>1369443
It's very unique to the peninsula. Other Arab countries like Jordan, Egypt, hell even Iraq when things are stable do not have this lethargic work culture. They're nicely diversified economies that can withstand the tests of time and industries going in and out of style.
Saudi Arabia meanwhile is just a mess. Their only industry is oil. Their population skews young, skews male, and all of them expect a free ride because that's pretty much what their dads got. Oh yeah, they're also Wahhabi'ist as fuck, so they're pretty okay with all the worst that islam has to offer.
>>1367907
It could be that European climate and geography fit better for a post medievel economy and social structure.
>>1369359
>islamic communists
???
>>1369929
You know not of the glorious islamo-communist theory? Very haram.
>>1367866
The Turks took over.
>>1367866
Multiple factors. Like every long-lived empire in history.
>decadence
>internal divisions
>economy going to shit
>the rise of other civilizations
But the mongol catastrophe was definitely the biggest one.
>>1369569
>Implying that North Africa and the Middle East don't have practically the same climate as Southern Europe
>>1371429
just the coastline
>>1367941
He said that about the battle of Tours and the Umayyad caliphate
>>1367866
Increasing political instability made worse by degrading diplomatic and economic relationships between each Muslim region. This led to the rise of military governments whose bureaucracies increasingly served the interests of the military over the state or the country. Urbanization collapsed, and militarized tribes dominated the land siphoning resources without promoting economic development.
>Everyone converted so no more jizya
Is a meme answer.
>>1371429
Been to both and they don't. Only the coast at best.
>>1369035
This
The reason that the middle east had historically been so rich was because it was the focal point of trade between Europe and the far east. Once Europeans found sea routes to the indies, they could cut out the middle man.
Even worse for the Muslims, once the new world was discovered, then Europe became the new focal point between the riches of the far east and the raw material of the Americas.
>>1367926
>Armenian
>Middle Eastern
>>1369035
The Only non-meme answer desu
>>1367866
>islamic
>civilization
Pick
One
>Muslim Caliphates
Monghols
>Ottomans
Poortuguese destroying the silk trade by creating a world wide trade through exploration of the oceans
>>1367965
It's ethnic supremacy
>>1367866
they ran out of easy kingdoms/areas to conquer thus they ran out of foreign books to translate, that's what the "golden age" was, greek/byzantine/persian books translated into arabic
>>1375267
fill me up on this one. were well-known islamic scholars mostly persian or is it just iranian propaganda?
>>1373882
Armenia is literally middle eastern mate, just like Azerbaijan and Georgia. The fact that Armenia got cucked out of most of their Eastern Anatolian territory doesn't help them get into Europe.
Even if you go with the definition that Europe ends at the Caucasus, well, Armenia is still south of the Caucasus.
If you ask me though, Russia should mark the end of Europe. Especially considering that by all rights, Russia could be its own continent, both when it comes to culture and when it comes to natural barriers.
>>1373931
>Poortuguese destroying the silk trade by creating a world wide trade through exploration of the oceans
>implying it wasn't the Spanish landing on a whole new fucking continent kickstarting a fever for exploration that eventually led to world wide oceanic trade routes.
The Portuguese were already exploring, true, but they wouldn't have had such a great impact if the Spanish hadn't come back with all the new world riches.
>>1377341
They were mostly persian. Though that's not too surprising considering persia's population at the time vs other places nearby. It's still disproportionate, though.
>>1367866
Cousin marriage, Islam allows it to a far greater extent than Christianity. Over time inbreeding causes tribalism and intelligence decline.
>>1377455
>intelligence decline.
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.
>>1369929
r u dumb?
>Islam
There's your problem
>>1373882
>never heard about Little Armenia and Armenians living in the Levante coast
>>1377773
compare Indian and Pakistani IQs then, they are practically the same people yet...
>>1378316
Arent pakistanis incredibly inbred due to the whole first cousin marriage thing? Though i dont know enough about india to say if they do it too.
>>1377432
The Spanish only left because they wanted all the riches of the Orient.
>>1367866
There were no places left to expand, not without meeting resistance that could defeat your armies, anyway.
I remember Suleiman wrote in his memoirs after the defeat at both Vienna and Malta, that with those stops, the Ottomans really have reached their peak with the major gateways to further expansion now closed.
Between the Sahara Desert and Christian Ethiopia/European colonies being a barrier in Africa, China and Russia being barriers in Asia, and Western Europe now containing the Ottomans to just the Balkans, a middle eastern empire doesn't have much else to expand or grow from unless you want to attack India, which was done several times.
After the Peak of the Ottomans before the siege of Malta, it was just a long way down as stronger powers bordering them took bite after bite of their empire until the deathblow was dealt with WWI.
with the division of the Ottoman Empire and the redrawing of the region along colonial lines, and the existence of Israel on top of it, it's exceedingly hard for an Islamic nation to gain a monopoly of power in the region, as you see 5-8 factions fighting to the death over a fraction of the region, with no one able to win it all.
>>1378316
1. India is composed of many ethnic backgrounds, not just one.
2. Pakistani may have some "former" Indians, but they are also filled with Pashtuns, who are not native to India.
>>1367866
It was about the establishment of what can be called 'Muslim orthodoxy". Islam prior to 11th or so century was still in its formative years. It was shockingly different from what we know today and very heterodox - there were vastly different traditions, influencing each other. There was much room for freethinking and innovation. Also, there was a political class willing to support philosophers and scientists.From 10th century onward for various political (rivalry between Caliphates), cultural (al-Ghazali), political (decline of old political class replaced by upstart strongmen), an orthodox mainstream (both Sunni and Shia) emerged that over time squashed all dissenters. Innovation and freethinking became a grave sin. There was also no one left to support philosophers.
>>1367934
>1.) Jizyah is the non-Muslim equivalent of the zakat. Muslim or not, you're paying a tax either way.
Zakat was much lower than Jizya. Also, Jizya was a fixed poll tax, meaning you couldn't have it commuted if your income fell.
>>1369027
>>Dhimmis were exempt from military service
No, they weren't. They were forbidden from carrying weapons, but were conscripted en masse as rowers, servants, camp followers and all other positions that involved doing chores, often in harm's way.
>>1369003
>Mongols.
Bullshit. Mongols never reached Egypt or Arabia, yet they declined also. Besides, Muslim world was already undergoing decline when the Mongols appeared on the scene.
>>1378382
They wanted to find new routes towards the East Indies, just like the Portuguese. I fail to see your point.
>>1377341
Add some andalusians (Moors or Jews) and Indian maths. Arabs were pretty shitty in general but the Euro-Afro-Asian trade routes were god tier and very good for the ideas to travell. Shame for them because fundamentalism, the establishment of other trade routes be europeans and steppe nomads ended all of that, but Europea played they cards pretty well and that's why today we can talk from one point to another of the world in mere seconds.
>>1367866
Reformation never came
>>1369569
Jared? Is that you?
>daily reminder that greece belongs to islam
>>1381378
mehmet pls go
>>1369443
Too fucking hot to bust your ass bruh
>>1381378
xxaxaxa
>>1367866
Turks took over and formed an unbreakable oligarchy that would rather have the empire stagnate than progress with their precious privileges lessened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb0Yfj7VjjU
>>1381378
>pictured: rightful Roman clay
Islam was/is thwhat problem... google jewish nobel peace prizes vs muslim nobel peace prizes. Islam stagnate everything
>>1381787
Turks weren't everywhere. Other places in Muslim world stagnated also.
>>1367866
the oic has the same amount of gold as china does. i wouldnt really say islam was stagnating
>>1378316
pakistanis are more inbred
and
dravidians from south india are very different from the rest of india and pakistanis. That part is also the wealthiest part of india.
Portuguese here.
One of the reasons the islamic civilization stagnated was because they were primarly a nomadic and tribalist people.
Nomads and tribals don't have a sense of unity so the rulers started to fight each other and the muslim world suffered a lot from it.
Then the invasions from other asiatic peoples weakened the empire even more as well as reconquista and religious fanatism.
In the end, the final coup was given to them with the renassance when the western world started to develop at a greater and astonishing pace while the muslims world remained tribal and backwards.
That's why i think that pan arabism is a lie and incredibly flawed. Tribalistic societies can't adapt to a unified government except for rare exceptions.
I think that the muslim\arab world should find a governemt system of their own that suits them better.
>>1367866
Ran outta Greek stuff to copy
