...speak about Revolutionary Catalonia as an example of "libertarian communism"? It was a brutal dictatorship. How were committees with militias murdering people different from a state?
>>1316704
Because people don't like to admit they are wrong and will do anything to defend their beliefs.
>>1316704
labor vouchers
>>1316704
If /his/'s anti-commie crowd is any indication, because it was a brutal dictatorship who's goal was to achieve statelessness, therefor it was a stateless society.
>>1316704
"How were committees with militias murdering people"
Because it relies on the will of the people. If no one wanted to be part of the militias they would dissolve. The government was not the one organizing the militias, and they killed property owners who refused to collectivize. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either, seeing that they were purposefully preventing their workers from reaching a better life.
Revolutions mean some people have to die. In the case of Catalonia, a few people dying for the good of the people they oppressed was seen as worth it. But no, it wasn't a brutal dictatorship, the central government had little control over anything. That's why it did so god damn well.
>>1316704
Also, not expecting violence during a civil war is absurd. Ultimately, Spain would be far better off if the Anarchists had won, or at least, Catalonia would be. You can complain all you want about people dying, but people dying is one of the realities of history. People died during the Napoleonic Wars, ultimately benefiting everyone.
>>1316760
>a brutal dictatorship
[citation needed]
Maybe near the end due to the CNT, but not in 37 or 38.
>>1316766
Oh, I'm sure that the mass killings of thousands didn't coerce people into joining the militias or accepting collectivization. And neither did the fact that people who didn't want collectivization weren't allowed to hire an employee or use transportation among other limitations.
Besides, if collectivization was such an utopia, why ban wage labor? Surely the workers wouldn't want to be exploited by evil bourgeoise, right? And I'm sure that earning not based on what your work is must have been such socialist paradise, right?
>>1316766
And the committees were the new government, not calling it a state doesn't mean it wasn't one. Besides, you say "few people", not surprising from a barbaric communist. They killed thousands of people based on their religion, their political views or the ownership of property.
>>1316760
What the fuck did you mean?
>>1316879
Anarchism isn't anti coercion when putting the revolution in place. You don't win a revolution by showing everyone how good your system is, you have to force it.
>if collectivization was such an utopia, why ban wage labor? Surely the workers wouldn't want to be exploited by evil bourgeoise, right? And I'm sure that earning not based on what your work is must have been such socialist paradise, right?
Because wage labor was unnecessary? Labor vouchers work as a better system?
And it was really a paradise, or else the under-supplied anarchists wouldn't have have fought tooth and nail to keep it around. Authors have written about it, Sam Dolgoff compiled a number of european language sources on Catalonia, translated them into English and painted quite a picture. But there isn't that much information around about it.
We
>>1316903
They could have tried with a strongly worded letter :^)
>>1316801
>Ultimately, Spain would be far better off if the Anarchists had won
t. 13 yo Antifa
>>1316930
Compelling argument m8
>>1316766
>Because it relies on the will of the people. If no one wanted to be part of a gang they would dissolve. The government was not the one organizing the gangs, and they beat up the property owners who refused to pay protection money. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either, seeing that they were purposefully preventing poor people from reaching a better life.
>>1316912
>>1316916
I didn't say their ruthless use of violence contradicts their Anarchism. What contradicts it is that once they gained power, they kept a hierarchy (the new state in the form of the committee) that exercised tyranny.
If wage labor was unnecessary, why ban it? If collectives were so great, the workers wouldn't want to leave them and be employed instead, right?
And no, everybody earning the same is not good, it's mediocre and unfair.
>>1316903
"thousands of people" is fucking nothing, sorry, especially for a revolution. Compare that to over 100,000 killed by Franco afterwards. They didn't kill people based on religion, they killed members of the clergy, who were openly pro-fascist (an extremely deadly ideology.)
Or, does Franco get a pass?
>>1316912
>And it was really a paradise, or else the under-supplied ISIS wouldn't have have fought tooth and nail to keep it around.
>>1316912
>You don't win a revolution by showing everyone how good your system is, you have to force it.
"You don't maintain order by showing everyone how good your system is, you have to enforce it." Why are you so near-sighted? "Anarchist" Catalonia was another totalitarian state, up to interfering with social freedoms like practicing the religion you'd like. It was special among totalitarian states in that it relied less on bureaucracy, but it was still run by bullies.
>>1316999
They were both brutal. Communists were anti-clerical in principle, any cleric with a self-preservation instinct would oppose any such ideology. And don't act as if the priests and nuns were about to pick up arms - they were killed for dissent in the face of the new order, and for ideological reasons in general.
>waah violence is bad and makes me feel sad
Liberalism was a mistake
>>1316970
Gangs aren't leading to people having better lives? Gangs just kill people who aren't necessarily infringing on other's liberties.
>>1316993
>they kept a hierarchy
In Anarchist controlled areas of the country, they ignored the state. In mixed republican/anarchist areas, they compromised with the republicans leading to them getting their asses kicked.
>If wage labor was unnecessary, why ban it?
Wage labor is unfair exploitation. They do the same amount of work as others but make less? That's exploitation and not fair.
> If collectives were so great, the workers wouldn't want to leave them and be employed instead, right?
They were employed in the collectives? What are you even asking? No one left the communes to work for a wage, everyone left working for a wage to work in the communes.
>And no, everybody earning the same is not good, it's mediocre and unfair.
If everyone is rewarded with everything they need plus luxuries, people don't care about being paid at all. And that's why Catalonia didn't collapse from revolts. Everyone was fed, clothed, had a roof, and if they weren't at war they would also have TVs and Radios. You do the work, you reap the reward. You contribute to society, you reap the reward. That's it.
>>1317006
>like practicing the religion you'd like
They killed the pro-fascist clergy, I honestly don't care about that. Anarchist Catalonia didn't and wouldn't have banned the Spanish Language and culture given the opportunity, but Franco did that to the Catalans.
>>1317022
What the fuck is even your point? People kill others? Wow, I never would've guessed.
>>1316999
There were tens of thousands killed by the reds (by the way, they did kill people based on their religion, they never denied it). And Communism is as totalitarian and has killed many more people than Fascism.
>>1316801
>Spain would be far better off if the Anarchists had won, or at least, Catalonia would be
Source:Muh feels
>>1316951
The same that you brought
>>1317042
>Gangs aren't leading to people having better lives? Gangs just kill people who aren't necessarily infringing on other's liberties.
Gangs transfer wealth from the pockets of the comparatively wealthy to kids which are comparatively poor. The comparatively wealth keep the poor kids from taking what they need from stores by forcing them to pay for that stuff, even though the store owners actually have more cash lying around than the poor kids. Clearly, the store owner is in the wrong and it's only fair that he gets robbed.
>>1317042
>What the fuck is even your point? People kill others? Wow, I never would've guessed.
I'm saying the clergy weren't killing anybody. The militias did. Clergies had every reason they needed to oppose them, since communists had an history of prosecuting the clergy. I don't understand how you try to spin this to make the clergy seem like the oppressors here.
>>1317060
>killing is wrong despite the fact that violence is not only the most effective solution but also the most moral
Pacifism is why God doesn't talk to us anymore. Your lack of awareness is only further proof of how broken your ideology has made you.
>>1317042
A committee dictating how you live is a totalitarian state despite anarchists refusing to call it so.
You don't get it. If workers liked the collectives so much and being privately employed was so bad, why ban wage labor? Surely those workers wouldn't want to leave the utopian collectives and be exploited by the bourgeoise, so what's the need in banning wage labor? And if collectives were so great, why did they not allow the use of public transportation for those who refused the colllective paradise?
Luxuries? They earned based on hours in some parts. Why shouldn't an engineer earn more than a guy who piles boxes?
It was a primitive dystopia.
>>1316766
>they killed property owners who refused to collectivize. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either
The true morality of leftists.
>>1317118
Where did I advocate pacifism? at most I condemned killing noncombatants
> Pacifism is why God doesn't talk to us anymore
What?
>>1316722
why do they adopt stupid beliefs where they are constantly humiliated for being wrong then
>>1317147
>punishments are bad, all actions should be permitted, except when people try to stop me from shifting on their grandmothers
Liberalism is at worst ideology of neets on why they should get to scrounge off others, at best it's proof that violence is the sole moral action one can take.
Lefties logic
>Hur hur hur hur if the anarchist won the war it would be heaven on earth
>Any evidence of this kind of societies lasting long and giving good results?
>You know, they killed for this ideas, so they must have worked pretty well you know.
Fucking retards.This a pic of Barcelona hen Franco took the city.Almost half of the city went outside to celebrate it.Your "utopia" is just mental masturbation
>>1317167
>murdering people in order to see my pipedream come to fruition is totally okay, even though every single historical attempt at doing it has led to famine, oppression and unfreedom.
>>1317054
No he's right. You could vote anarchism away. Communism stays.
>>1316766
>and they killed property owners who refused to collectivize. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either
I own cattle and my family own farms, the day you try your CNT shit is the day I will murder your family slowly you communist PIG
we WORK, you dumb idiotic bastard, i guaran-fucking-tee i worked harder than you ever have. i will spend the rest of my life sniping and planting IEDs to kill every single one of your friends, go to hell and stay there with marx and your mother too
/mad
>>1317171
Not saying the Anarchists or Communists are right but you kind of have to come out and celebrate when even the slightest action, like not clapping as the Nationalists arrive, is a good way to get marked as a Red and shot and have your family raped by Moroccans.
>>1317162
Because communism has cool art and logos so its hip to identify with.
>>1317461
this is proof why CNT violence was justified, smallholders such as yourself have a fundamental economic interest in the property system, which is theft and we can't convince you to stop stealing and you will literally be violent if anybody tries to stop your dictatorial rule over that land and anybody who wants to use it
>>1318136
Ah, but can you still steal my property when I turn your corpse turns into maggot food?
Please, START the revolution yourself. I have ammunition waiting to be spent on you, just like the 30,000 dead bastards-turned-manure killed at the Ebro.
CNT is NEVER coming back, it's as dead as you will be if you steal my stuff, thief.
>mfw this cognitive dissonance of blaming one side of the SCW for brutality
Both sides were fucking animals, you retards. And might I add that, comparatively speaking, the CNT were saints.
>>1318368
you sound like the navy seal copypasta
clumsy bourgeois
>>1318412
You know what isn't fake though :^]
>>1318458
considering Franco had just about the whole army and support from Hitler it's pretty laughable that it took the military cowards three years
everybody remembers Durruti and the Iron Column as heroes, Franco and the other fascist nerds are irrelevant and it didn't even take repression for the dictatorial system to fail
>>1318136
>which is theft
How is the private property which he tills himself to eek out a living for himself still theft? It's personal property at that point.
>>1318495
>my family own farms
yeah you need more than one farm to make a living lol
>>1318496
more people were executed so why don't you use that?
400,000 people were killed by the state so why isn't that what you're glorifying?
>>1318495
He's just a lowlife thug mad at someone else having things that he doesn't. He looks at all that land and animals and think I must have it made and I'm filthy rich, when really I'm just a guy spending 90% of his money taking CARE of the land, animals, etc. because it will all turn to forests or die of starvation if you don't. It's hard work pretty much every damn day. This punk would see me dead to steal what my family has worked for with their bare hands, paying other a portion of the money and using the rest to buy pay bills.
Beyond being a soldier there is no tougher job than this, or maybe carpentry, which I can do more or less.
>>1318505
Two middle fingers up to them, leftists did the same to all rightists in Catalonia.
>>1318524
And the reason they did it is the same reason that you won't be convinced by anything I post in this thread, and I won't be convinced by anything you post. Making these threads and I suppose all argument is a waste of time.
>>1318539
Dude, what part don't you get that YOU are literally STEALING with armed FORCE?
How am I "stealing" paying what I can afford to those who would volunteer to work?
Communists did it once, they will do it again if they have a chance. Just know I do have weapons and if my livelihood is gone then I will be joining the gov't/right wing militia. There's only one way you take what is mine, ball is in your court.
>>1318550
>i'm fucking dying here
I'm celebrating with a beer, it seems you are eyeing my up my "cute" animals and I don't want them birthing something that looks like your mother with 4 legs.
>>1318567
It's only stealing if you recognise property rights, which I've never seen a justification for. Since property rights can take away the ability for someone to control their own work, and since that is more concrete freedom than the freedom to own land or factories in your imagination, I don't recognise property rights. Sorry about the hostile tone of discussion as well.
>>1317360
As retarded as it gets
>>1317818
Yeah, because FRanco had control and knowledge of who celebrated what.....
>>1318626
Cute is not for sexual
>>1318136
>we have to kill you because otherwise you won't let us use farmland you worked hard to build
Honestly, I should be shocked, but at the end of the day this is what leftists believe.
>>1317006
>And it was really a paradise, or else the under-supplied ISIS wouldn't have have fought tooth and nail to keep it around.
ISIS is well supplied by Obama and Saudis.
>>1317147
>they killed property owners who refused to collectivize. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either
They actually cut down on that.
"The collectivisation[12] of the countryside started right after leaving Barcelona. Even though the column did not stop to liberate as much countries as other columns, due to its size, it created the majority of the libertarian communes. At the beginning there were some acts of violence and some people were forced to join the collectives. But it is said that Durruti himself defended the individualists who did not want to work share their land.[13] Such people were left having as much land as they could cultivate with their families without any hired labour and could always join the collective. Depending on the place, the individualists could have been put under more or less stronger economical pressure to make them join the commune."
There wasnt the need for that much violence because a lot of the land was run or left farrow by absentee landlords.
>>1318505
Leftists aren't people.
/his/ Why doesn't USA nuke just create military dictatorship all over the world, round up all leftards in a single town and nuke them?
It's be better for all of us.
>>1316704
It wasn't a dictatorship because there was no dictator.
Anarchist Catalunia was pretty amazing, but you're correct that it was no utopia. The murder of pro-fascist clergy is wrong.
![Murciana-goat[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/u2H135p.jpg "Murciana-goat[1].jpg")
>>1318519
Got any goats or grapevines?
>>1317118
edgy
>>1319192
>Anarchist Catalunia was pretty amazing, but you're correct that it was no utopia. The murder of pro-fascist clergy is wrong.
It wasnt anarchist, and it wasnt amazing. Companys alone order the execution of 9000 people. Only uneducated antifas believe so.
>>1319206
Isnt that the figure for all people who died violently during the civil war in Catalonia?
>>1319231
No. That is just the death sentences singed by Companys
>>1316766
>Revolutions mean some people have to die. In the case of Catalonia, a few people dying for the good of the people they oppressed was seen as worth it.
Spoken like a true Communist
>>1319517
>Communism
>Workers movement
>>1319371
Where do you get the idea anyone cares about those deaths? Anyone who confronts the revolution is an enemy and deserves a bullet in the head. That simple.
>>1318136
>Property is theft
>Every person apparently has a claim to the whole bounty of the earth
Each person thrown into the world is owed nothing has no claims over anything aside from things that others give them.
>>1319517
>Inocent lefties
>>1319517
MUH WORKERS
Workers are nothing special.
>>1319517
>Leftists
>Innocent
>>1319192
>The murder of pro-fascist clergy is wrong.
>>1319589
>pro-fascist clergy is wrong.
You fuckers should be physically removed.You are dumb and sick
>>1319596
>Don't complain the next time you guys will be lined up against the walls in front of a milita firing squad
>Lefties
>Winning
You will be physically removed soon.
>>1319602
>>Lefties
>>Winning
Shill while you can.
capitalism isn't going to last long
>>1319612
>capitalism isn't going to last long
>Goods and services in exchange for currency is going to die out
>>1319624
we will soon hit post-scarsity and most jobs will be replaced by machines.
The capitalists will use this at first to gain more money because machines don't need wages but when they realice that all the consumers are gone they are fucked.
The workers will finally realiced that they have been fucked the whole time by the capitalist elites and rise up. pro-capitalist reactionaries will be shoot alongside their masters
>>1319628
>Post-scarcity
A dream.
>Lack of consumers
Another dream?
>Rise up
Did you masturbate while writing this post
>>1319634
>A dream
Prove it.
Communism is science
>>1319612
>capitalism isn't going to last long
>Says the fat NEET neckbeard for the 50th time
>>1319636
>Communism is science
>>1319636
The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim.
What makes post scarcity work without a few workhorses? Why would consumers stop consuming just because they get gibsmedat? Why'd leftists rise up against the workers providing for them?
>>1319650
>would consumers stop consuming just because they get gibsmedat
how does consumers get money when all the jobs are replaced by machines?
Why do commies think the world owes them anything. Work hard for the things you want like a man, fag.
>>1319655
>how does consumers get money when all the jobs are replaced by machines?
>Commies are this dumb
>>1319655
They get gibsmedat because they vote for increased welfare.
>>1319658
people who don't work hard and only whant gibsmedats will not have a good time in a communist society.
>>1319663
>people who don't work hard and only whant gibsmedats will not have a good time in a communist society.
>People working hard
>Communism
>>1319661
then the consumer money is just money coming from the capitalist elites. the economy won't grow.
>>1319665
i think you'r confucing the socialdemocratic welfare state with communism
>>1319670
No.Communism is anarchist stupidity that ends up like New Harmony did.Only people with 2 brain cells believe that communism can work
>>1319667
And how will this hypothetical, unrealistic scenario lead to content, well-fed, lazy NEETs killing the ones that actually kept them fed and alive?
>Those dirty workers! They provide for us!
>>1319670
No, socialdemocratic welfare states rely on people working very hard. The reason Sweden was one of the best places to live in (And still is) is because they work very hard. The reason it's failing is because they think immigrants will work very hard, too.
I think we can all agree at least that it would have been far better had the republic won rather than the literal fascists seizing power
Also go POUM
>>1319676
>sweden
>good
maybe if your name is Mehmet
>shilling for Palme
Stefan please go and suck some BBC
>>1319702
>Sweden
>Bad
Memes
>Shilling for Palme
I don't I just thought he looked smug.
Palme är en hanrej
>>1319724
Cuck
>>1319665
>people didn't work hard in the soviet union
>>1318627
Yes he did? You believe everyone in N. Korea sincerely cried for Kim Jong Il?
>>1319206
>Companys was an anarchist
>>1319692
>all
Where do you think we are? Did you fall for the /his/ is /leftypol/ meme?
>>1319733
So now the soviet union is communist?
>>1319744
>Catalonia was anarchist at any point
>>1319692
>I think we can all agree at least that it would have been far better had the republic won rather than the literal fascists seizing power
No. Only low level monkeys think this
>>1319799
Fair enough.
>>1316704
Did nothing wrong.
>>1318136
>>1319564
I'm sorry, but if the anon with the farm lives in the EU, he is committing theft. The EU collects money from taxes and redistributes half of it to land owners to keep food prices low. And since most European countries have never had land redistribution programs, this means the money is given to aristocrats and royals. For example there was a story on the news the other day about a duke in England getting 300k euros a year. So when a poor or homeless person buys food at a supermarket he pays vat which ends up being gifted to wealthy landowners. In my opinion this is theft.
This is particularly bad in Spain because of the high unemployment rate and the fact that the goverment decided to give away it's African territories instead of redistributing them to young people with no property.
>>1319692
>literal fascists seizing power
I fucking wish it had happened, Jose Antonio was actually a quite cool guy
>>1319596
>>1320165
>It's also stolen somehow.
Ok, I know this is a strawman image, but I'll explain the reasoning. The basic idea is that prior to it being claimed as "private property" it was available to all to use, by claiming something as privately owned, you necessarily exclude others from its use, hence stealing it.
>>1321888
Cancerous trips of gay niggery.
So the natural state of property is that it is shared? How is it regulated? By the state? I thought this was supposed to be anarchy...
>>1322180
Look man, I'm just explaining the reasoning. Presumably any attempt to make it "not shared" would constitute an act of theft one could legitimately rail against. It's not a concept I was ever able to swallow.
I just object to the "somehow" part of that. Understand your opponents arguments before you start attacking them.
I never understand this. Anrifaggots, commies, and lolbergtarian socialist always point to Cantalonia, and claim civil war justifies the attrocities. Why do this when the Black state existed in the Ukraine. Now call me crazy for not wanting to slaughter people for idealism, but why play mental gymnastics like a child to justify Cantalonia, when such a better and more just example exist, at roughly the same time period?
>>1323835
leftiest are to dumb to know about the black state
>>1320594
I agree, common agricultural policy was a disaster
>>1319636
>Scientific
>Socialism
More utopian than the owenites m8y
>all these commies
into the oven it goes
>>1316704
CUNT FAIL
Glad the Falangists won.
>>1316704
> libertarian communism
What does this even mean?
>>1326317
I think you mean FAT CUNT
They did nothing wrong
