Has there ever been a more nightmarish religion than the Mesoamerican one? Their pantheon consists of massive reptiles, birds, jaguars, and monsters who crave human flesh and suffering. It just reads like demon worship with all of the perverse symbolic rituals.
>humans are made from gods' blood so be sure to sacrifice lots of people so the gods get their blood back
>set people on fire before ripping out their hearts to please Huehueteotl so he'll keeps your hearth warm
>throw a virgin into the cenote so your seeds receive enough water
>wear a person's skin until it rots off like husk from corn for a good harvest
>beat children until they cry before sacrificing them so Tlaloc sends rain
>wear human skeletons and eat human flesh to worship Mictlantecuhtli
>offer shit and piss to Tlazolteotl so you wont get STDs
>impale human hearts on cacti for Chalchihuitlicue's prickly pears
>sacrifice thousands for Tonatiuh during eclipses so the skeletal star devils don't descend and eat everyone
>dismember young women and throw their remains from pyramids for Huitzilopochtli and Coatlicue
Any other gross ones I'm missing? Is there any reasonable explanation for why people invented and worshiped these horrifying deities for thousands of years? Did they think that these gruesome rituals were beautiful, or were they simply terrified that their monster gods would kill them all if they didn't carry these things out?
can you elaborate on some of these practices op
this is hardcore shit
desu it sounds fucking metal
a few blood rituals every now and then is good catharsis
>>1292935
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG8WqEyXIyc
>>1292701
>humans are made from gods' blood so be sure to sacrifice lots of people so the gods get their blood back
They were not people who would just try not to think about how they acquired the food they ate every day. Perhaps because unlike today, they usually acquired it with their own hands.
The felt in debt to nature and the gods for taking the life from others and in exchange they gave the most valuable thing they had, life.
All these rituals show a different perspective of food ethics: they accept to give their life in the same way nature gives it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VECtHHQjCqg
And just to be clear, I'm not justifying this perspective, I'm just trying to point that they were also humans and didn't practice this religion just because they enjoyed to make others suffer.
>>1292959
But what happens when it's time for YOUR blood to be spilled, Anon? Not so justified then, eh?
>>1293026
Theoretically, if I genuinely believed the thirsting gods needed my blood for the world to continue, I would find it justified.
>>1293022
interesting perspective.
Did they state this in their own recordings, or is this just theorised?
The OP's post states some common elements of Mesoamerican mythology and religion without any nuance or apparent deeper understanding of the subject.
For one, sacrifice was a matter of great honor, as in many traditions, those who died in sacrifice ascended to the highest Heaven-realms (similar to Christcucks and the way they view martyrdom as the highest honor), and there are accounts of captured warriors being given the choice of being liberated but choosing sacrifice so as to not shame their families or factions.
As for the supposed disgust of the OP towards "wearing a person's skin", and "wearing human skeletons", I'd say it's no less distasteful than the Catholicuck tradition of worshiping the supposed "relics" of saintly figures, which was quite exaggerated in the Medieval era (and still is), where there are records of people kissing the supposed 'holy prepuce (foreskin' of Jesus (probably the foreskin taken from some random dead infant, knowing the propensity of clergy and merchants to fabricate relics).
>offer shit and piss to Tlazolteotl so you wont get STDs
Where are you getting this made-up shit? Rituals to Tlazolteotl were actually the opposite, and included purification by way of steam-baths and fasting, and she was held to send STDs to those that indulged excessively (for you see, the Mesoamericans in general - especially the Aztecs - were similar to the Republican Romans in their regard of moderation and virtue).
I recall one Indian chief telling the whites "You people applaud and revere the torture and sacrifice of one man, you called it absolutely necessary! how dare you scorn us!?"
>>1293197
OP means well but he's also retarded
>>1293022
That doesn't make it any less terrifying. In fact the notion that they thought they legitimately believed they needed to pay the gods with blood from living people makes it even scarier. How the fuck did this twisted sense of debt come about?
>>1293197
>those who died in sacrifice ascended to the highest Heaven-realms
So did people who died of natural causes end up in Hell? Is this why Lord Pacal's sarcophagus depicts him falling to the bottom of the world tree and having to fight his way to the top?
>I'd say it's no less distasteful than the Catholicuck tradition of worshiping the supposed "relics" of saintly figures,
Yeah well IMO people wearing a freshly peeled human skin for a month until it rots off is a bit more disgusting than briefly kissing a mummified body part. Have you ever smelled a human corpse?
>Where are you getting this made-up shit?
Ceceilia Klein's "Teocuitlatl, 'Divine Excrement': The Significance of 'Holy Shit' in Ancient Mexico"
>>1293026
There is the tale of a Tlaxcala warrior captured by the Aztecs and put through a gladiator style combat ritual where he was expected to die. He won and gained his freedom but still chose to be sacrificed as it was honored and would place a human soul in a greater afterlife closer to the gods rather than a gloomy Hades style afterlife for those who died of old age.
>>1293201
>one person decides to sacrifice himself to save humanity
>aztecs sacrifice majorly unwilling captives
Are you a bad enough dude to stab your own dick with a stingray spine?
>>1292701
Considering the fucked up practices in the old world (child sacrafice and rape temples were pretty common, Christianity partly gained so much traction because the idea of a human sacrafice having 'magical spiritual' power was easily digestible and accepted).
Meso-america was particularly bad ass evil though.
Many south and central american socioties grew up in very harsh environments and I think it makes sense that they would personafy their gods as harsh and demanding
the jews lived in a desert at the crossroads of big military powers, and their got was not a kind god...he was jealous and demanding
I think our religious expression is a reflection of the lives we live and i think people who live rough inhospitable lives ed up comeing to term with gods who reflect their world
>>1293636
>rape temples were pretty common
tell me more
>>1292701
And? How do YOU worship?
>>1293636
Which parts of the old world, exactly?
>>1293643
Interesting theory
>>1292701
It's a lot less hardcore when you remember that those who were sacrificed on the most important holy days were treated like gods in the year leading up to their death. Other than that it was just cut 'em open, rip it out or a bit of child sacrifice, which you found in primitive mythologies worldwide.
>>1292701
In part at least, trying to terrorrize subjugated peoples into paying tribute may have played a role in this
>>1293785
He's right you know, as a pantheonic example; consider the prominence of Sun-gods (e.g. Apollo/Phoebus, Ra-later-Amun-Ra) in polytheistic societies that grew up in relatively sunbathed areas like the Nile-basin & the mediterranean, versus the Norse pantheon not even bothering to deify the sun at all (I am writing under correction here of course). I imagine the picts also wouldn't have considered the sun to high up in their druidism as it didn't play as prominent a role in their lives as say, the forests.......
I'm just pulling this out my ass tho, so take it with a fistful of salt
>>1293875
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B3l_%28sun%29
Sol was the Norse personification.
>>1293875
On the contrary, the Indo-Europeans considered the sky god the most important.
Dyews p'ter (Father Sky) became Zeus, Jupiter (Diup'ter,) Dyaus Pitar, Tyr (Tiwaz) who is the Tue in Tuesday. There's a certain equivalence between the sky and the sun, since the word dyews often turns into a word for day as opposed to night.
Environment is important, though. There's no sign of an original sea god in Indo-European religion, or even a word for the sea, and river religion is very minor compared to Egypt.
You're operating from the perspective that sacrafice was something to be feared in Mesoamerican societies. This is simply not the case
>>1293921
Didn't they sacrifice prisoners of war? Why would they give them the benefit?
>>1293414
>That doesn't make it any less terrifying.
I see. I can only suggest you to start considering this as something more than spooky stories, otherwise that's the only thing you'll find. Perhaps that's what you want.
>>1293785
He's write
In Mesopotamia life was extremely harsh what with the erratic floods and droughts, so their gods were a bunch of strict cunts who made humans to be disposable slaves
In Egypt life was much more stable and easy so their gods were kinder and the afterlife was Ok
>>1293414
>So did people who died of natural causes end up in Hell? Is this why Lord Pacal's sarcophagus depicts him falling to the bottom of the world tree and having to fight his way to the top?
Oh wow, is the Christcuck indoctrination too much to shake off?
There are no such things as Hell-realms in Mesoamerican mythology. Those people who died unimpressive deaths of old age were held to go to a Hades-like afterlife, which was neither pleasant or unpleasant and where the shades could find the comfort of their friends and families.
Also, you're misinterpreting the symbolism of Pacal's sarcophagus... He's being depicted similarly to the maize God, who has to be swallowed by the primordial Earth in order to emerge triumphant; or, as the sun god, who has to seemingly venture into the jaws of the Earth and underworld at dusk to arise triumphant each morning. It's a symbol of his expected deification.
>Ceceilia Klein's "Teocuitlatl, 'Divine Excrement': The Significance of 'Holy Shit' in Ancient Mexico"
Sounds too sensational, considering everything that we know about the Aztecs pointing to a general and particularly strong abhorrence of feces and their rather 'modern' hygiene preferences.
>>1292701
It was a death cult.
Their societies were basically run by sick twisted priests and of course the emperor; the people were terrified and ignorant so they of course genuinely believed it. It's hard to blame the normal people of that society because if I genuinely believed that the star devils don't come down to eat everyone i'd sacrifice a few thousand of my enemy.
horrifying, isn't it. The Priests were fucking evil, no way they believed their own bullshit.
>>1294712
Or the gods were actually Ayy Lmaos who took pranks a little too far
>>1294724
>Obsidian dagger plunges in to enemy tribesman's solar plexus
>the priest draws it up and down his chest, before ripping out the still beating heart
>suddenly camera crew appears
>You just got pranked
>>1293167
I'd really like to answer but I can't give an answer without including "both sides" of this perspective and seems people here only like to see the "cruel side".
Posts mentioning
>evil
should be immediately discarded.
The notion of "evil", which are doubtlessly hedged in judeo-christian morality, have no bearing on past cultures and societies totally foreign to your own time and place.
>>1294712
>Did priests believe their own bullshit?
It's impossible to know what priests and scribes of what would be considered gruesome religions like the Aztecs, Assyrians (skull impalers whose society runs on conquest) and Carthaginians (bronze idol baby-slaughterers) ACTUALLY thought, but in all reason they must have figured they were doing the right thing for their people - else their empire simply wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. The most major downside is that the expectations for sacrifice grew as the empire expanded and demanded bloody tribute from other states, producing an unrealistic curve of growth that would have certainly lead to collapse without a major socio-religious reformation. Reformed Aztec religion with the manner of a Christ-like infinite-paschal-lamb sacrifice or a Hindu concept of cyclic ages of silver, gold and bronze would have been fascinating to observe if they didn't collapse soon after colonization.
>>1294712
>>1295029
>Were the priests fucking evil?
It would be abundantly clear for the intelligent bronze-age priest that bodily self-sacrifice parallels natural phenomena. Consider these simple, reasonable lines of thought, involving weather
>rain and soil make crop
>crop feed man
>rain look like God tears
>God tears feed crop
>man feed God tears, to feed crop, to feed man
staple Agriculture
>man hungry
>man need corn
>good corn skin torn off for man
>man skin torn off for good corn
and even a pinch of naive psychological essentialism, resembling the Egyptians most closely in their exaltation of the heart and lack of dignity or attention whatsoever for the brain:
>moving parts = living with soul
>man is full of moving parts
>no part but heart move on own outside body
>therefore, heart is seat of man's soul
And this is to say nothing of the Aztec inheritance from lost Olmec social conventions. You can use your imagination.
Reductions like these show how you can derive basic religious principles for agricultural society and provide explanatory power, soothing the otherwise directionless, curious serfs and providing a framework for their society to begin working constructively.
>>1292935
Don't pay attention to >>1292985 , as these are Mayans. In Aztec culture it was considered an honor to be sacrificed. Parents gave up their children, slaves volunteered for sacrifice with the idea they'd immediately be raised to a specific god's highest heaven, and capture prisoners went nobly to their deaths with the idea that their strength would in turn strengthen the gods. It was metal, but it wasn't based off of fear.
>>1294712
>Why do people die when they bleed to death from too many cactus wounds? Why is the heart the seat of the soul, Aztec Aristotle?
Clearly blood is the vital substance of the soul and life as you know it, that powers all things.
>Where does food come from?
Corn god.
>Where does water come from?
Rain god in the sky.
>Why is life so hard and this desert/swamp so shitty to live in?
Heinous destiny god. He's a real motherfucker.
>What's the deal with death?
Subterranean skeleton gods, sun gods, earth gods. All of them are spooky and you don't really understand them as much as you'd like, but it makes sense because there are so many forces outside of your control as it is.
As a final word, violence and threat of violence is an excellent tool for social control and growth, as the English and Americans ought to know from the absolutely vast number of people they imprisoned and killed with horrible life-long circumstances even after the 1800s. And still do today, really. The Aztecs owing their success battling the unknown with fearsome, violent, and warlike nature isn't "evil" or a "horror story", it's the human condition in the rawest and realest form there is.
>>1295104
Plus what
>>1295098
and other posters in this thread have said. Would you prefer facing a medium to long, miserable life as an early Eurasian serf eating potato mush and dying peacefully in old age, or getting treated like a rockstar for a year and maybe fucking the chief's hot daughter before getting violently torn to pieces on a pyramid in your prime? It's really a matter of perspective.
![MTE5NDg0MDU0OTMzMDQ2Nzk5[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/5pHK4Dd.jpg "MTE5NDg0MDU0OTMzMDQ2Nzk5[1].jpg")
They deserved what they got.
>>1295132
>potato mush
You wish it were something as tasty as potatoes: considering how the potato didn't become a well-established staple until the 19th century, it would more likely be tasteless barley mush.
calling mesoamericans barbaric or evil is a bit hypocritical if we dont also call the Spanish and European settlers evil, considering they spent 200 years enslaving/wiping out a continents worth of people in the name of their god...in fact as far as blood sacrificed to gods go the christian god might take the cake in south and central america
>>1293658
He's probably misinterpreting the existence of sacred prostitutes in polytheist religions as being rape victims rather then highly respected individuals in their societies.
>>1294676
>There are no such things as Hell-realms in Mesoamerican mythology
Metnal/Xibalba, the underworld which the world tree connects to the heavens, is described as a place where you must cross rivers of scorpions, blood, and pus to enter. It's a place where disease-demons play jokes on you like throwing you into rooms full of darkness, hail, jaguars, giant killer bats, razor blades, and fire. The lid depicts Pacal falling into the jaguar-like mouth of Metnal/Xibalba where he'll have to pass the death gods' trials or defeat them before he can escape and climb the tree. Pacal's body is interred at the bottom level of the 9-step pyramid of inscriptions, signifying his descent to the 9th level of Metnal/Xibalba where Ah Puch resides.
You can drop the condescending attitude any time.
>>1295492
Good Lord, this sounds like a Mesoamerican "Dante's Inferno."
>>1295568
>>1295568
>>1295570
Damn, reminds me of Warhammer
>>1295492
>Ah Puch
Is this the being you speak of?
>>1295492
BTFO
>>1295720
This makes me want another Apocalypto in whatever media narrative they choose to go with whether that be a game, movie, or mini series.
Mesoamerican mythology and history is criminally unexplored.
>>1295800
People are probably too afraid to touch it. Considering how critics felt about Apocalypto, it may be a while.
>>1295837
Though there is this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3gsqtcuHt4o
It's long as hell, but quite interesting.
>>1295568
>>1295570
>>1295679
>these gods
>>1295748
>>1295800
>>1295837
mesoamerican culture is criminally unknown
chance wanted it to be abruptly terminated and forgotten
i believe it is the saddest event in human history
>>1295837
Didn't Apocalypto get good reviews and turn a profit, though?
>>1295884
Yeah, but historians and several native descendants got butthurt that the culture was being depicted as "savage" by mainly focusing on the brutality (a Mel Gibson staple)
>>1292701
Bumping. I'm Mexican myself but from what I've read in 24 years most of their gods were fucking H.P. Lovecraft creations.
>>1295898
>be half spaniard half negro rape baby
>we wuz aztecs n shiet
>>1295899
It's true! Not only as the typical pantheon of strange, capricious, elder beings, but the fact that they were portrayed to be as *inhuman and alienating as possible* without losing symbolic meaning. Imagine that, worshiping a deity whose godliness was demonstrated in the inscrutable convolutions of their form.
No wonder the Spaniards buried this thing for 200 years.
>>1293643
I think this not only applies to the religions hut also the aay societies are. Arab societies tend to be harsh and they fught a lot historicly. However, in one of the most easily hospitable places on earth, india, was the only civilisation ever to never have a war, indus valley.
Had this theory for a while now too, glad somone shares it.
>>1295877
To think of all the history, myth, art, and culture that was destroyed for questionable reasons at best, it's legitimately upsetting. That's not even counting the almost totally unknown Mississippi culture to the north. Fuck everything.
>>1295943
Minoans were mostly peaceful too IIRC, their culture shows very little if any signs of warfare.
>>1296017
Do not despair for what we do not have. Instead rejoice for what was saved.
>>1293026
You think that.
![Caves-Xibalba-City14[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Ih9NaB3.jpg "Caves-Xibalba-City14[1].jpg")
>>1295800
Imagine a Doom-like first person slasher with Chivalry's combat controls. Have the game start off with a tutorial featuring you as a local Mayan lord exploring your town and practice fighting, sacrificing, stargazing, etc. Then you get poisoned after a jaguar hunt and die. As you are interred in your pyramid you helplessly watch the coffin-lid close above you, the screen goes white, and you begin climbing the world tree in a platforming section. Near the top with a quetzal in sight you have a scripted fall and you dive headfirst into the hellmouth of Xibalba with cackling and death-screams all around you. You have to fight your way up the nine levels using various enchanted weapons you were buried with and acquiring different animal skins for special powers. You perform blood rituals to speak with your ancestors for advice. The various death gods are the bosses. The entire thing would be in Mayan with subtitles.
This will never be made and even if it was it would sell poorly.
>>1296044
I could imagine it looking realistic in the world of the living, but once you die the style could change to resemble Mesoamerican art from the time.
It'd probably bomb at first, but might become a cult classic later on.
>>1295941
fun myth: Coatlicue used to have a human head. After she was decapitated by her daughter her carotid arteries transformed into viper heads and kissed to form her new head which you see there.
>Mormons think this was Jesus Christ's incarnation in the Americas
Let me clarify some points:
>Not all ethnic groups in Mesoamerica are related to each other
There's probably an underlying cultural substrate but genetically and linguistically most mesoamerican nations were not related -- for example, the Aztecs (Mexica) and the Maya. The word for "feathered serpent" in Nahuatl is "quetzalcoatl", while in Maya it is "kukulkan". Nahuatl is a Uto-Aztecan language.
>Priest vs Civilian castes in Aztec society
Most scholars accept that the priests had a deeper understanding of the religion than the civilians did. Don't get me wrong -- the civilians totally believed all the bullshit, that all the Gods were real, physical beings that actually existed. But the higher-ups were much more refined than that, and followed a religion somewhat akin to Taoism. They believed in a single divinity, named teotl, that was a manifestation of the ever-changing state-of-action of the universe. Teotl manifested in nature and was personified as the different gods, but they were never taken to be real, physical beings. Teotl underlied nearly every humanity in Mexica society. In philosophy, for example, Aztec epistemology defined truth as that which was well-rooted in Teotl. In aesthetics, poetry (a very well defined art in Aztec society) was considered "beautiful" if it explained or "shown light" on some aspect of teotl.
A good introduction to this topic is the book Aztec Philosophy: Understanding a World in Motion by James Maffie. You can also just Google "Aztec philosophy" and get loads of resources, because it was strangely developed for an American ethnic group.
>>1296094
>also think that the Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israelites.
>believed that black people were angels who were neutral in the great rebellion.
>>1296074
You can't make this shit up
>>1296111
Thanks for the resources anon!
>>1296070
Could make a neat side-scroller with the sprites based off codex illustrations. Also would have some great death animations.
>>1296113
>man-sized bat monsters
>South American bats
How do you make this up? I need to know.
>>1296138
Can we start a kickstarter
>>1296147
Okay, this might be my ignorance of biology speaking, but why exactly does that bat have colossal balls?
>>1296155
To hit you over the head with when he flies by
>>1296024
Indus valley doesnt have any record of creating weapons of any sort, also buddhism, jinnisz etc stem from that region, and interestingly when biddhism branched out to tibet it became much more death oriented, as is expected within a difficult enviroment such as tibet.
>>1296155
>>1296164
>>1296169
...oh. well that answers that.
>>1296017
>questionable reasons at best
Nah dude, I'd have been right there with the conquistadors if I saw this shit going down.
>Huehueteotl
Was he a Brazilian god too?
>>1296190
Thought you were joking at first (mainly the name), but I don't know about the location.
>>1296190
Yeah i guess so, heres an ancient depiction
>>1296182
Especially with this guy.
>>1296182
>Be a conquistador
>In awe of Aztec capital which is clean, exotic and had a bigger population than the largest Spanish city
>suddenly they show you their pyramid and the inner shrine that is caked in blood and has charred human hearts on stone teeth
>>1295492
>>1295729
Xibalba isn't an afterlife destination, moron. The Hero Twins defeated and shamed the Xibalbans in primordial times and declared that "never again" would the Xibalban lords hold sway as they had previously done so. Xibalba is merely a court of various gods whose domains and aspects are death or darkness-related.
>>1296182
>>1296214
>appalled by the bloodiness of Aztec religion
>"Join our religion! You have to drink the blood and eat the flesh of this dead kike (it doesn't look like it, but it actually is human flesh and blood, that's the miracle!) and eternally contemplate the bloody torture and execution of this kike! And if you need help worshiping, here are some body parts of supposed saints."
>>1296295
I guess they'd feel right at home then. What if Eastern nations like China or Japan had "discovered" the Americas first?
>>1295720
Blood for the blood god
>>1296310
They do feel right at home, it's no wonder the Catholic church has had such a strong grip on Latin America.
The resulting syncretism hasn't been well received by the Vatican though.
>>1296276
Pic is from David Carrasco's "Religions of Mesoamerica" Second Edition, page 125.
>DavÃd Carrasco (Neil L. Rudenstine Professor of the Study of Latin America at Harvard Divinity School) is a Mexican American historian of religions with particular interest in Mesoamerican cities as symbols, and the Mexican-American borderlands.
You got any reputable source that contradicts this or are we done here?
>>1295492
>Xibalba
>and Xic ("Wing") and Patan ("Packstrap"), who cause people to die coughing up blood while out walking on a road.
Wow, now THAT is a specific Death God.
>>1295871
You ever tried Peyote? What about Ayahuasca? Give them a go and you'll soon understand where these gods came from.
>>1296352
Yeah I was going to say something similar. The sort of random, cruel, wild, and somehow beautiful view of the divine world makes more sense if you've taken too many shrooms at one point.
>>1296044
If it works like Catherine but with okami-level cultural aesthetics I think it could work.
>>1296182
Is that worse than an auto de fé? I would rather be sacrificed by Nahua than burned alive.
>>1296239
>Huh this reminds me a lot of our piles of Muslims we killed in the name of Santiago
>>1296295
Actually the Aztecs drew many parallels between the two religions. They often represented their own gods (since they were just facets of the Prime Mover Teotl) as the saints, leading to death cults and Santeria.
>>1296321
I think Mexican Catholicism is it's own entity by now. And it is glorious.
>>1296352
As far as I'm aware Nahua religion never relied on shamans, not entheogens. Not to say that when they were living in the Mojave (Tula), they didn't use that stuff and invade like the aryans did to india, but they didn't use drugs to commune with their gods. They used pain.
>>1296321
Vatican needs to send some inquisitors to burn down Santa Muerte shrines.
Too bad the fucking cartel would start killing priests in retaliation for destroying their pagan idol.
Fucking hate Mexico sometimes.
>>1296167
You're way off base there, there are many Indus weapons and extensive evidence for massive fortifications at Indus city sites.
Also Buddhism and Jainism clearly derive from Hinduism which in turn is for the most part Indo-European, albeit with several Indus deities "naturalised", usually as black-skinned goddesses married to white-skinned IE Gods.
>>1296373
>As far as I'm aware Nahua religion never relied on shamans, not entheogens.
Shamanism gave way to theocracy long before the Nahua arrived from Texas, but the use of ethnogens is absolutely attested by the priesthoods.
>The plants used include ololiuqui (Rivea corymbosa), teonanácatl (Psilocybe spp.), sinicuichi (Heimia salicifolia), toloatzin (Datura spp.), peyotl (Lophophora williamsii) and many others.
Ie, some heavy duty psychedelic pharma.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_use_of_entheogens
>>1296340
Missing the symbolism again?
>>1296382
Why is Sante Muerte not kosher when Saint Brigid is?
>>1296373
>Asking protection in battle from a Saint
>the same as ritual killing for a god
Also the conquistador primary sources reveal they were in absolute shock upon seeing the gory pagan shrines and human sacrifice.
>>1296382
Are you a Catholic? Please restrain yourself and stop destroying what remains of native culture.
>>1296404
If natives produce heresy like this then it deserves destruction. They want neo paganism then they can leave Christianity out of it.
>>1296420
And who is we in this case? Heathen, Heretic or atheist because the Church has bested all three time and time again.
>>1296382
>"Vatican needs to send some inquisitors to burn down Santa Muerte shrines."
As if - disregarding the cartels for a moment - the Church had enough clout to do that shit. The moment they tried, the Mexican government would go Cristero War all over again and finish the job.
Deal with it, faggot.
>>1296420
>bested pagans
Then why are you complaining about the remnants of Amerindian paganism tainting the Church? Apparently, it's such a problem according to you that it warrants reviving the Inquisition? Doesn't sound like it was "bested" to me :^)
>>1295272
No ones calling Mesoamericans evil. We are saying their religion and their priests were evil. Honestly, if I had a rapier and I encountered an Aztec priest I would have no hesitation running him through. (This is coming from a guy who spends tons of money on non-lethal mouse traps to spare those little guys from torture)
>>1296439
>strive for orthodoxy
>hur that means pagans won
This pagan idol of criminals and native Indians is not a threat to the Church, but it should be destroyed for the sake of not tempting the flock.
>>1296400
What am I missing? My source plainly supports my interpretation of the sarcophagus lid's symbols.
>>1296397
Huh, you learn something new every day. That's good to know.
No wonder they had so much fantastic and geometric art, then. Indian aesthetics seem much more in line with cannabis to me, but from the mushrooms and salvia I have done (as well as acid and 25-i), Aztec aesthetics for much more within that realm of experience, what with their love of right angles and spirals. In glad I learned this. Got any cool theories you want to throw at me?
>>1296440
>these people are evil for believing this way
>I would kill them on sight for believing this way, regardless of who they are personally
I hope you enjoy being raped by Mexicans in prison
>>1296480
Not that guy, but for one it's a known fact of ethnography that Amerindians (aztecs included) are genetically descendant from Siberian migrants that crossed the sea to America through the Bering strait. To imagine that the long lost Olmec and Aztec religions holds fragments of the modern-day shamanistic mushroom rituals of Siberia or Indo-iranian tribes preceding them is totally reasonable. It would also explain these pure coincidences:
>major, inscrutable god of destiny and conflict has one leg occasionally replaced with a "serpent" in relief and codex iconography
>serpents are frequently used metaphorically to indicate flowing liquid and lightning bolts
See: Coatlicue, Tlaloc
>Sanskrit epithet for Soma includes "not-born single-foot" and "grand lightning"
>Nahuatl epithets for muscaria, psilocybe, peyote are "grand lightning", "dwarf lightning", "green lightning"
hmm...really makes u think
>>1296484
Dont give attention to roleplayers desu.
>>1296382
Yeah sure the modern Catholic church, the one where the pope washes muslim refugee feet and names city blocks after Martin Luther, is going to send inquisitors to commit iconoclasm.
The Church lost its balls a long time ago, get over it. It is now the weak and passive institution Jesus would have wanted.
Just remembered that this is a thing.
>>1296496
>grand lightning
Sounds exactly like phosphenes
>>1296514
Aztec power armor?
>>1296570
Probably just a commander. Then there's this.
![sacrificio_humanos[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/wcM6fJL.jpg "sacrificio_humanos[1].jpg")
>>1296404
>stop destroying what remains of native culture
No
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/46919631/ns/world_news-americas/t/mexican-border-family-suspected-human-sacrifice/
>>1296604
Bad
Fucking
Ass
>>1296604
Nice slave morality dude
>>1296604
That's fantastic news. I wish sacrifice became the preferred method of execution.
>>1295877
there's a ton of mayan writing still to go through, lots of stuff could get cleared up
![11251187766_5646ae5656_b[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/oMsMqSg.jpg "11251187766_5646ae5656_b[1].jpg")
So what happened to the remains of everyone sacrificed and killed in Tenochtitlan? The accounts written by conquistadors mention tens of thousands of skulls on Tzompantlis in the middle of the city. Combine that with the millions killed after the Spanish conquest from war and disease and you'd think you wouldn't be able to dig 10 feet without striking a mass grave, but the largest one I can find reference to is that of 550 Spaniards and their allies in Zulpetec.
Did the Spanish cremate everything on a massive pyre, or did the corpses sink really deep beneath the mud of lake Texcoco and get built over in later centuries? Are there just millions of skeletons lying underneath Mexico City?
>>1296496
if native americans are actually related to siberians, the relation would be so distant you wouldn't expect to find similarities like that. it's more likely they're coincidences than that they came from a common source, even if the groups are related.
>>1296310
>I guess they'd feel right at home then.
This.
Catholicism is a big death cult.
>>1296310
They'd probably compare philosophies, and look at the Nahua as complete savages for sacrifice in the name of a deity. Mongols might understand but Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans certainly would not.
>>1298045
I wonder how the natives would react. The Inca would most likely encounter them first and then word would spread to the others. Which of the Mesoamerican gods ruled the east? That would probably determine how they would react.
decapitations sure are popular down there
>>1298035
Look up the story and some videos to Bloodborne, it's a Japanese Buddhist's game which uses Lovecraftian imagery to communicate how fucking scary Catholic thought and dogma looks from the outside.
>>1297806
>Corpses
>Jungle
Pick one. Between the predators, the insects and the bacteria and fungi corpses have a tendency to vanish.
>>1292701
Metal as fuck.
>>1292701
>skeletal star devils
Badass.
Popol Vuh is also a great read
>>1296418
Why would you even want that? Scuckholm syndrome?
>>1298288
>jungle
>Mexico City
bruh, their climate's about as mild as it gets. The average annual temperature is 60F, it rarely goes below 40 or above 90
>>1293197
Dont forget the Christian symbol, the execution device.
![Tzitzimitl[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/EmweP1z.jpg "Tzitzimitl[1].jpg")
>>1298314
They were pretty freaky, they called them the Tzitzimime. Massive spooky astral skeletons with glazed-over eyes, stars for joints, and eagle talons for hands and feet. They wore human hands and organs as jewelry. Women prayed to them for help during childbirth, and the souls of women who died in childbirth could become them. They also occasionally swooped down at night to tear apart wayward children and pregnant women, and they could be heard in advance by the rattling sound of their shell skirts. Usually they just waited menacingly in the night sky for their chance to invade earth, either during eclipses or once every 52 years when the world threatened to come apart. To prevent this from happening and connect the ages together the Aztecs performed the New Fire ceremony. The night before the 52 years were up everyone in the valley of Mexico put out their fires so everything was bathed in darkness. Everyone was anxious that the sun wouldn't reappear and they'd all be eaten by the figures in the stars above, but they looked to the top Mount Huizachtlan for hope. There the priests of Huehueteotl cut out a man's heart and placed some sticks in the cavity. They rubbed the sticks together vigorously until they produced a flame, which they used to create a bonfire that would be used to relight the whole valley and renew the world and keep the Tzitzimime at bay for at least another 52 years.
>>1298591
Abso-fucking-lutely metal.
>>1295898
>Native descendants
Absolutely ridiculous.
I would be interested to hear more from the historians though. The savage perception makes sense if the movie was about random Europeans showing up, and showed from their eyes, but I can understand showing the locals being so terrified is a bit misleading.
>>1298185
Thanks for the suggestion.
>>1298824
I really disagree with the portrait of the ceremony, the movie makes it look as if sacrificing was a roman circus. Pic related.
And yeah, the Mayans navigated through the Caribbean and Central America, they even met with Columbus' ships, so it wasn't a surprise for them.
They also show primitive villagers exclusively hunting for a living and eating raw meat, when every Mayan cultivated corn. The soldiers kidnapping these random hunters to offer them to their gods is just as lousy since they expressly went to war to bring the bravest men.
The whole movie is a cluster of historical inaccuracies, just to mention a few:
The pyramids are like those in Tikal (6th century), the people at the top of the pyramid are dressed like Mayans of Copan, also, kids and women weren't allowed to be in there, and there are tzompantlis in the city when these structures were introduced by the Aztecs in the 15th century.
>>1293617
>"mondays"
>>1298604
have a relief of one
>>1297806
I would image they're somewhere in Texococo, perhaps rotted away after half a millennium underwater. The only thing they really valued in the sacrifices (e.g. what they kept in the temples) were the hearts, and they probably threw the bodies out somewhere.
Did Montezuma actually believe that Cortez was Quetzalcoatl, or is that just something that someone heard from the grapevine?
>>1300297
From the top of my head: Wasn't that idea connected to a mistaken understanding of Aztec diplomatic poetry? From what I remember, Montezuma was just being extremely polite by likening the invader to Quezalcoatl.
What did the Aztecs think was happening when everyone was dying of AIDS and Cortez was fucking their shit up? Did they think it was the end of the world? Did they think they were being punished? Did they think they failed to please their gods?
>>1300552
They probably knew it was the foreigners fault. Just because they didn't have gun powder doesn't mean they were dumb.
>>1300297
I've seen texts being cited in this board where Montezuma tells Cortés something like "Yeah, those plebs believe me to be god-like, but I consider myself just a man like I consider you just a man". Montezuma from all people was the less likely to believe Cortés was Quetzalcoatl.
>>1300552
They thought it was the end of the world and that their gods had abandoned them, lots of them committed suicide and the Spanish described them after the conquest as being broken in spirit. The Spanish of course interpreted it all as God's will.
>>1301006
The feathered serpent's head was struck by the foot of God himself.
>>1301084
bit of a shame, some of the city centers that worshiped him claim that he told them to stop performing human sacrifices
>>1301166
Interesting.
>>1292701
pic related
>hey great grandson, you wanted my advice?
up
Our lord the flayed one
his statues were dressed in the skins of sacrificial victims
>>1298591
Damn, that is fucking brutal.
There seriously needs to be more RPG's based on meso-american mythology
ITT: unironically propagating conquistador propaganda
>>1304506
Go ahead and point out the specifics if you'd like. Plenty of this is backed by archaeology and codices.
>>1298185
any specific video suggestions?
>>1304454
Second
>>1296074
Here's what she looked like before her beheading
>>1304929
and a full-sized after pic
statue's about 10 feet tall
on the plus side, your pupper get to guide your journey to the afterlife
>>1294712
>Their societies were basically run by sick twisted priests and of course the emperor; the people were terrified and ignorant so they of course genuinely believed it. It's hard to blame the normal people of that society because if I genuinely believed that the star devils don't come down to eat everyone i'd sacrifice a few thousand of my enemy.
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
- Denis Dide
The above quote is kinda fedora but I still think its badass.
>>1294755
>I'd really like to answer but I can't give an answer without including "both sides" of this perspective and seems people here only like to see the "cruel side".
There was an enormous library of philosophical and religious works in the Aztec capital (I'm talking Library of Alexandra style) that was just burned by the conquistadors so we will never really know 99% of what the believed.
Vid related is a little twisted but might be of some interest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3arwHaziWI
>>1306624
> muh freedom
Thankfully benis dide us probably dead by now
Nothing to add. Juste here to tell this thread is fucking fantastic. Kudos to all of you.
>>1296044
One more thing. Like Shenmue & GTA have spots where you can play arcade games, maybe in the tutorial mode you can have a spot where you can play Bul
Did ancient central americans have access to drugs like the western native americans had access to? I know the Navajo ate some funky cactus that sent them on trips.
>>1306433
you have been visited by the pudgy pupper of Colima, a easy journey to the afterlife will come to you but only if you respond with "eat well, pupper"
so these are what cultured savages are, not like those northern hicks
>>1307721
The Aztecs lived in cities and had writing, by any definition there were a civilised race, not savages. For that matter, most northern Indians practised agriculture, making them barbarians and not savages either. To find savages who still relied on hunting and gathering, you have to go to the far north or the Amazon.
I always thought a cool movie plot would be some archaeologists or scientists accidentally discovering a way into hell through Aztec ruins, revealing that their religion was actually devil worship.
>>1307763
>by any definition there were a civilised race
except, you know, but the human sacrifice metric
>>1307778
Not relevant to whether a society is civilised or not. The Romans practised human sacrifice until surprisingly late, as did the Myceneans (Agamemnon's sacrifice of Ipheginea springs to mind).
>>1293433
>majorily unwilling captives
Not really. I wouldn't exactly call it voluntary, but it wasn't against their will with them kicking and screaming either.
THey were well treated and cared for both up till and after the sacrifice in terms of their remains, and it was something that was seen as highly honorable. Most of the cultures the aztecs were sourcing captives from were going into the battles to get captives of their own, so it was sort of a mutial thing.
>>1295085
>>1295029
IIRC some of the noble classes and priests in the aztec empire did clearly use it as an excuse for personal power and gain but I don't think it was a majority thing.
It was probably comparable to christanity now in the US. Lot's of people in high status particpate in the religion and clearly use it for their own gain, but do honestly belive in it to some extent if not devoutly at the same time.
It's not mutually exclusive to use a religion as a prexext for personal benefit and to actually believe in it.
>>1300297
>>1307339
My understanding is that some of the people they came across reffered to the spainiards as "teotl", which can be translated as "dieties", but it's a a lot more naunced in meaning then that so they could have just been calling them strange or omnious. In any case, cortes certainly thought that they thought he was a god.
Montezuma at least didn't buy that because what >>1300593 says happened
>>1307778
>>1307721
>built a city on a lake larger in anything in europe at the time (1400's) without the aid of work animals such as horses or mules, AND without anything beyond limited bronzeworking
>had better access to clean water, better hygiene, and compulsory public education too
>lol savages
and it's not like europe wasn't mass executing people in larger public events with heads on pikes being paraded around towns and burning heretics at the stakr or anything.
>>1292701
always knew pokemon was satanic
>>1296310
Desecrating the temples with blood and human sacrifice is basically the worst thing you can do in Shinto or Buddhism.
>>1308125
howd they do it tho
>>1307790
>Not relevant to whether a society is civilised or not
And how is it not?
>>1308184
How'd they do what? Build the city?
That's actually not something i'm very well informed of. I know that it was a gradual process and they literally built their temples over older ones over and over in layers, though
>>1308202
Because "civilised" means "lives in cities".
>>1307790
So did the Chinese. The subject of human sacrifice is a bit touchy, but if nothing else, all sources agree that they still occasionally sacrificed war captives for luck in battle during the Han dynasty.
>>1308378
The Romans over-compensated for their own history of human sacrifice under the Monarchy by their very public abhorrence for the reputed human sacrifices of the Druids, even tho there is not any evidence that the Celts ever practised human sacrifice, just head-hunting.
I'm sure if the Aztecs had survived contact they would have "whitewashed" their history just like the Romans and Chinks did and we'd be arguing about whether it happened at all in ancient Mexico, let alone how common it was.
Posting some Tonatiuh in this thread.
>>1306635
Imagine a future civilization discovering that Holy Mountain film and trying to make sense of our civilization by analyzing it.
>>1307376
eat well, pupper
>>1298158
>Which of the Mesoamerican gods ruled the east?
The flayed one. >>1304423
>>1296044
This sounds bad fucking ass
>>1309415
Oh. Well that would probably a good indicator that they're invading demons, huh?
>>1309465
Quite odd how he's yellow-skinned and his eyes are sometimes depicted as squinting/closed.
>yellowgodconfirmed
>>1309477
Quite odd that the god of Maize should be the color of maize?
>>1309477
Have you ever tried wearing someone else's eyelids over your own?
>>1309477
The skin he's wearing is not his own, I think. His (lack of) skin is the red part.
>>1309481
No, nor do I plan to.
>>1309486
>skinwalkerconfirmed
But in all seriousness, I posted >>1309454
>>1309477
Also his color was red. He was the red Tezcatlipoca.
>>1309491
I wondered how you spelled that. I've only heard it in spoken tongue.
>>1309465
>Pretty sure xipe totec was one of their most venerated gods and most respected
Well, so was Quetzalcoatl. All Aztec gods looked "weird" for us.
>>1309491
Can you explain the whole multiple tezcatlipoca thing? I've never understood it
>>1309477
isn't the west part of the old world located east of the new world?
>>1309497
It's way easier, especially this specific name, if your native language doesn't have retarded rules (or lack of) like english.
Anyway for the more complicated ones I just copy-paste them.
>>1309500
I don't do either sorry, I used to but I just did a subject that covered the whole pre-hispanic america when I was doing my degree. And my paper for the subject where we got to go deep was about the Aymara so not related to Aztecs at all.
>>1309501
u wot
>>1309524
the western part of the old world is located to the east of the new world
>>1309567
Makes sense.
>>1309567
Is Austrailia considered part of the Old World?
>>1309657
first pic I found
>>1308202
Romans forced slaves to fight to the death purely for their entertainment and yet they're held as the epitome of civilization.
>>1309923
>men gloriusly fighting against each other for fame and glory
>being skinned alive so another dood can put it on him because, yeah
>>1309937
They were skinned after they were killed, there's no way you could pull it off in one piece while they were alive.
And yeah I would say forcing slaves to kill each other is worse, because the only purpose of it is entertainment whereas the Mexica sincerely believed the flaying would result in better crops. Romans also did shit like crucifixion and tying people to poles and letting animals eat them. Both practices are revolting to modern sensibilities but we can empathize more easily with killing for entertainment than killing for religious rituals.
>>1309962
I see the gladiators as a more extreme form of sport, I guess the roman gladiators were famous and seen upon like our sport elites.
Beside, all empires has done "awful" things, practices, thats what keeps a empire alive, fear... And enough food to keep people alive ofcourse
>>1309478
Maize wasn't yellow back then
If a being of some kind came from heaven RIGHT NOW and told the world that a human needed to be sacrificed in some manner so the entire planet didnt explode tomorrow because quantum magic, Would you find it unjustified if the government sacrificed some guantanamo prisoner so the other 7 billion could keep living?
>>1309991
Corn is and always has been fucking yellow (among other colors), what are you smoking?
![index[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/tQ8rQwX.jpg "index[1].jpg")
>>1307188
great idea, also have to throw the ball game in there too. Possibly as part of a boss fight like the hero twins did to beat the death gods in popol vuh.
>>1293636
Read up on Celtic practices. Apparently druid paganism and christianity were the only banned religions in the Roman Empire.
Christianity because they did not want to declare the emperor a divine being, and the Gauls because of "excessively cruel practices". Remember this was Rome around 80 AD.
Druids used for example to cut open a guy and from his agonizing screaming and the way the guts fell out of the body, they'd "read" the future.
I've read about altars on the Isle of Man coloured red from all the human sacrifices.
>>1295315
Don't make it sound so attractive, it really wasn't.
On the Seine not far from Paris there used to be an island where in Gallic days these sacred prostitutes used to live. Once a year they came off their island naked and fucked whomever they met.
They had this strange ritual, something with their roof and an opening in it dedicated to the god, they had to assemble and disassemble it, but when someone dropped a part of it (whhich was said to happen every year) the other girls literally tore her limb from limb, a very cruel and painful way to die.
>>1295492
BTFO
>>1309478
That's not the maize god. Maize God had his hair styled like the tassel of an ear of maize.
>>1296295
I finally understand why the natives didn't convert initially - they knew what human flesh and blood tasted like and realized that the wine and crackers were a scam!
>>1296373
>Huh this reminds me a lot of our piles of Muslims we killed in the name of Santiago
It reminded the Spanish a lot of the hundreds of years of Umayyad butchery, forced conversions, genocide occupation and enslavement.
>>1310516
Druids were also a powerful and respected class of men outside of the political hierarchy who really, really hated the Romans and weren't willing to play ball.
Roman accounts should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>1310598
This is more or less how the whole world worked up until 1945. All 3 entities (Ummayads, Castilians, Nahua) all oppressed people under their heels. It was about survival back then.
>>1295157
The priests, yes. The civilians just born into that world, no.
>>1310860
Maybe, yet I pretty much trust those Romans when it comes to Celtic heritage.
The strangest accounts of Celtic paganism surviving even into the late middle ages as local costums in remote areas refer awfully much to human sacrifice (and orgies too btw).
Today it is bon ton to distrust Greco-Roman sources as biased and then instead hold some romantic account of your own ancestors.
>>1292701
weren't their gods all all fucked up too, like one had his feet twisted backwards and only screamed or something?
>>1298604
Im having a blast reading this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQBWkd502So&list=PL3748389A214C9328&index=26
>walkin through the rain forest at night, heading home to your village after a bit of fishing
>get a tingly feeling down your spine, hear some things rustling in the trees
>all of a sudden hundreds of eldritch shrieks come from all directions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QuO09z-SI&t=0m48s
After experiencing that I would welcome death because I would never be able to sleep again
>>1310520
>Once a year they came off their island naked and fucked whomever they met.
It was a better time...
>>1310520
>>Don't make it sound so attractive, it really wasn't.
I'm not talking about gauls here dumb fuck, and what you described while quite disturbing to modern sensibilities does not change the fact that those women were probably significantly better off in terms of independence then the average housewife was.
>>1311713
Good god, these people were on another level.
>>1311713
it really gives you the impression you are not up against vulnerable humans like yourself but some kind of unstoppable force
>>1311713
That video is amazing. Apparently they had carved out tunnels in temples or forts or whatever that had the same effect when the wind blew through them.
>>1293197
>le relics were forgeries maymay
>>1311713
Absolutely terrifying
>>1311802
not doubting you but source / examples?
I know El Castillo in Chichen Itza has a weird echo ability.
>>1312674
Sorry, just vague recollection or misremembering. I could be completely wrong.
>>1293414
>That doesn't make it any less terrifying. In fact the notion that they thought they legitimately believed they needed to pay the gods with blood from living people makes it even scarier. How the fuck did this twisted sense of debt come about?
Possibly local psychedelics.
Think about it, once you abstract life to a certain extent and remove your ego from the equation, you are in debt to nature. Why do animals and plants deserve to die just so you can go on living? What about egotistic pursuits like civilization, technology, science and culture can escape or transcend the physical reality (nature, for the aztecs, the entire universe for us) it depends upon and exists within? Nothing.
We are subject to nature, we steal energy from the environment to perpetuate our existence, if we were honest with ourselves we'd put back as much as we can.
In modern times we do this w/ environmentalism.
In Aztec times they developed rituals and superstitions to figure out how they could give back, and then authoritarians enforced it. Local entheogens may have culturally led to an abstract state of mind where human life didn't seem to matter as much as modern people make it out to.
Aztec beliefs in modern terms;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bUUmelbyw
>>1311772
Archeo-acoustics is cool as fuck
>>1309937
>gloriously for glory
Vanity of vanities.
An Aztec always pays his debt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KHR6SgjO6c
