This man's philosophy and government structure killed 10's of millions of people and set back a large portion of the world technologically. He was a lazy bitch who never held a real job and mooched off his friend. The only thing more delusional than him is his supporters. Prove me wrong.
>protip: you can't
Can't argue with you there.
excuse me but withhout this SAINT we would not be able to admire this work of art
>>12916
Religions have provoked more deaths than anything, and despite of that, the people still praising their gods
>inb4 dank memes from /pol/
>>13035
Marxism is basically a religion you faggot
>>13035
>blames religion for problems
Typical commie. Just own up to the fact that you're a loser.
>>13035
https://carm.org/religion-cause-war
>>12916
>Lenin: I'm gonna use Marx with my own ideology
>Stalin: I'm gonna use Lenin with my own ideology
>Mao: I'm gonna use Stalin with my own ideology
>Hoe: I'm gonna use Mao, Lenin and Stalin with my own ideology
It's like blaming Adam Smith for Capitalism.
>>12916
>>13183
lenin and hoe were good revolutionaries
also the idea that stalin killed 60 gorrilion is debatable at best
>>13183
Except Capitalistic countries prospered whereas Communist ones completely failed.
>>13081
>>13100
>>13127
ohhh /pol/ i love you so much
Marx was a philosopher, not a political leader. You should be blaming Lenin or Stalin for that shit. Marx and Engels were idealists, and their ideas have been poorly applied by corrupt individuals throughout history.
I'm not a communist BTW, I think it's generally wrong to try to achieve Marx's ideals through the state.
>>13242
Ya, he probably killed more.
>>12916
attack the argument not the man,
Friedman never worked in a sweatshop in his life yet his studies about 3rd world economy and the benefits of sweatshop are excellent.
and if you are going to attack friedman you would attack his theory and his observations and his method not whether or not he worked in a hong kong textileshop or not.
secondly marx talked very very little about the solutions, He analyzed 19th century capitalism, simple as that. The solution / future part is very vague "oh then there will be communism" . etc. Your mistake is that you act like das capital was communism 101 manifesto, it really wasn't. For revolutionary ttheory and how to communism you need to read other people, lenin esspecially, who wrote tremendously.
>inb4 commie
am libertarian, but unliek you I read stuff, I suggest you do the same. I seriosuyl doubt you read the people from your own ideology though let alone someone from the opposite side
>He was a lazy bitch who never held a real job and mooched off his friend
Marx was a journalist, retard.
>>13318
in eastern yurop
>>13277
>anyone who disagrees with communism is from /pol/
Kill yourself.
>>13242
>sources are soviets working for the soviet government
top donkey
>>13328
>journalism
>job
LMAO
M
A
O
Fuck off you delusional idiot.
>>13328
Just like this lazy faggot I know named Death Moth. Journalists are useless NEETs
>>13318
ill give a good example once you realise that socialism and communism arnt the same thing
you probibly think that communist countries are a thing
>>13402
REDISTRIBUTION IS EVIL
>>13337
You mean this?
Go back to Reddit faggot
>>13310
Friedman held many jobs and had a degree in Economics Marx was literally a NEET who never worked a day in his life. Friedman can have an opinion because he understands how economics work while marx was butthurt that some people had more than him.
>>12916
To be fair to Marx, Marxist-Leninists did not really listen to him on the matter of Communism. He said that capitalism needed to go through its full transformation before Socialism could arise from it.
>>13348
>first source is the tsar's own census gathering
>>13391
You saying that just proved the ongoing theory that communists have high functioning autism. Hang yourself if you have the mental capacity to tie a noose.
>>13402
Cuba? Vietnam?
>>13431
this baka desu senpai
obligitory
This board is doomed to become a reverse /pol/, with leftist circlejerking about Marx and how Stalin's 60 Million killed is "arguable".
Pleas don't let this happen, you commies.
>>13427
>hurr you are from reddit
>>13440
never said that
>>13431
friedman's killed many chileans
>>13473
>>13473
The Irish potato famine was due to the government ...
>>13477
>thread shitting on Marx
>leftist circlejerking
Are we browsing the same board?
communists are the main and only reason of Anarchist's defeat in Spain during civil war.
they are famous for being betrayers.
>>13462
i wasnt going to say vietnam because i dont know too much about their political situation but cuba is definitely sucsessful even if you disregard that its been under imbargo for more then half a century
>>13521
> There are people in this thread defending communism and socialism
Are YOU in the same thread as me?
>>13521
This board is looking more and more like a cancer center for commies.
>>13525
You mean tankies.
Spanish anarchists were also communists, they just weren't tankies.
>>13500
>gets btfo
>g-g-go back to reddit!
>>13431
>>13581
We're not ants
>>13497
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile
Wow its almost as if capitalism saved this country
>>13548
You don't need to be a leftist to point out the obvious lies in OP's low quality bait. This is a history board, not the "root for your favorite football team" board.
nice thumbnail
>>13579
Keep deluding yourself. If you're dumb enough to support a communist government you clearly can't comprehend simple memes.
No you're correct. Fuck Marx.
>>13431
friedman did not had any blue collar prole job.
even if friedman did not worked a day in his life and marx was a blue collar factor worker would that make his argument more valid and friedmans less so?
you are literally just ad hom and starwman marx, putting words in his mouth.
Again read, read adam smith (protip the invisible hand he wrote about differs from the invisible hand concept we have today) read friedman read hegel read marx
stop with these bullshit childish arguments.
>marx never worked amirite guise
>gommunism is evul :DDD
fucking hell, I give up I don't even care whether you read or not, just shut the fuck up, you are ruining the reputation of libertarians and classical liberals.
pic related, you.
>>13581
Great ant source.
>>13602
chile was like venezuela or worst when pinochet was the president
>>13602
Chilean here, kill yourself. This is pure propaganda. We're fucked everyday in the ass now thanks to these policies.
Imagine if we a XIXth century conservative scholar, let's say Leopold von Ranke, decides to write a series of works about how society is evolving and how, according to this evolution, future society should be organized.
Imagine if conservative parties around the world decide to follow his tenets and meet disaster after disaster, with millions of people dying in the wake of such projects.
What would the modern world, and specially the left-wing intelligentsia, think of Ranke?
>>13627
>i-i was just memeing ha! youre d-delutional
>>13577
>Spanish anarchists were also communists
how can you be a commie if you're fundamentally against the state?
there's collectivist anarchism and individual anarchism.
>>13035
No, communism killed more people than religion. 20 million Stalin. 50 million Mao. That alone trumps all crusades/Israel wars and beyond that there's the Vietnam and Korean War, socialist failures in Africa and South America, famine in the Russian Civil War and Red Terror, etc. etc.
>>13693
>how can you be a commie if youre agaist the state
itt: people with no understanding of BASIC marxist theory
>>13668
You're either not old enough to vote or a NEET who dropped out of high school. A basic knowledge of economics and history leads one away from Marxism, not toward it.
>>12916
>mfw my sociology professor sucks Karl's dick every other class
>mfw I wish I had the stones to raise my hand and red pill her fucking retarded southern ass
Literally every class period includes some type of hate towards white males.
>>13289
Bingo.
>>13660
yeah sure you are from chile
>>13723
you ain't gonna b8 me that easy
>>13757
a basic understanding of historical economics shows a trend towrds communism
>>13811
lmfao what
>>13242
Lenin believed that the NEP was to learn how to not starve to death from capitalists and then when they knew how to emulate capitalist trade go back to socialism. Kek. Not to mention that the Red Terror was horrible and Lenin sanctioned. He was a shit person and just as evil as every other Marxist ever.
>>13723
UNDERRATED POST
Commies on suicide watch.
>>13693
Communism is stateless.
Leninists wanted to achieve communism through a temporary state ruled by the vanguardist party.
Anarchists (anarcho-communists/anarcho-syndicalists) wanted to achieve communism through other means that didn't need an state.
Both groups wanted the same end (communism), they just disagreed on the means (through the state vs without the state).
>>13742
i hate to say this but marx was a hack bro.
and anarchists were always sickened by his very own name alone. and viceversa of course.
>>13289
Their ideas are so shit they can't be properly applied. That's the point. They never, ever, ever will.
>>13811
Really? So capitalist countries prospering while communist countries failed is a coincidence?
>>13783
>However, an economist and University of Wisconsin-Madison sociology PhD student Matías Cociña outlines that this ranking is reached by collecting national averages, which oftentimes can conceal significant economic inequalities within a country. When Chile is analyzed using the Inequality-adjusted Human Development Index (IHDI), “Chile loses almost 20% of the value of its indicator, decreasing by 11 points in the overall ranking (of countries where there is an indicator set), and falls to third place in the region, behind the Bahamas and Uruguay,” Cociña explains.[3] Clearly, behind GDP and other average indicators lies a reality that shows that the majority of Chileans live far from the “almost developed” lives that politicians and the media have been ascribing to them in recent years.
>>13811
The LITERAL opposite is true.
>>13864
they can be applied on a cultural and societal level. sorry if that triggers you, /pol/fag.
I don't know shit about Marx. Would "Das Kapital" really be a good place to start or is there better, more concise material written about his ideas by scholars?
>>13843
>Communism is stateless.
This is what they wanted YOU to believe.
But once they get in touch with presidential power and state structures and hierarchy, they end up getting corrupt.
Take North Corea for example.
They achieved a revolution, but never got rid of the state.
Communism sounds great on paper and Anarchism requires a very high level of conscience and detach of material things.
>>13921
Literally can not
Literally will not
There will never be the revolution of the proletariat
There will never be a stateless utopia where the means of production are owned by the proletariat
Never, ever, ever. It's less believable than the immaculate conception. A century ago you might have had a point but history proved you wrong.
>>13921
>if you don't agree with me you're from /pol/
>>13811
This anon gets it. Countries like Laos and Vietnam are the juggernaut of the global economic scene. I fucking love working in the rice paddies 12 hours a day just to feed my family.
>>13864
>They never, ever, ever will.
qué
>>13902
HDI is worthless, it was invented by Amartya Sen to promote the state of Kerala in India, which was governed by the communist party in the time. That's why communist countries like Cuba score so well in it.
>>14005
BASED GOD
>>13975
Again, you're criticizing Marxism-Leninism, not communism. Anarchists would completely agree with you, that's what they disagreed with Marx on, but they would also tell you they're communists because they want to achieve a communist economy.
North Korea isn't communist. They even removed all references to socialism on communism from their constitution..
>>14005
BASED
COMMIES ON SUICIDE WATCH. AS IF THEY WEREN'T ALREADY.
>>12916
>blaming Marx
You have it backwards. Marx was a reaction to the failures of 19th century capitalism. His and others critiques of it were pretty spot on.
There were revolutions in Russia and elsewhere because the nations couldn't adapt fast enough to the changing demographics and demands of the people.
>Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy
Marxists were jerks, but they wouldn't have gotten anywhere with mass support if the system was able to meet their demands.
>>14005
B A S E D
A
S
E
D
>>14005
Based.
COMMIES ON SUICIDE WATCH
I see this thing every day on my way to work.
>>13783
Yeah. Also check out my shitty Internet connection.
>>13989
>There will never be a stateless utopia where the means of production are owned by the proletariat
it was done before
>history proved you wrong.
history proved only that when a revolution settles, it's always ruined by an external force.
OR the fact that they never got rid of the state.
Since racism is not allowed in this board, why communism is?
Communism killed more people than racism, it's objectively worse. Just compare North Korea (communist) with South Korea (racist). Heck, even Rhodesia, an extremely racist state, was better than modern-day Zimbabwe, a socialist regime under Robert Mugabe.
Considering the mild damage of racism, and the extreme damage of communism, it's ridiculous how one is completely socially unacceptable while the other is given a pass, even on 4chan.
Marxist 'philosophy' is idealistic hogwash that doesn't serve the best needs of the people despite it seeking to do so.
>>14047
>In Chile “está mal repartida la torta”[4] (the pie is poorly distributed), says Gonzalo Durán, an economist and researcher at Fundación Sol, a non-profit organization that focuses on labor issues. Regarding Chile’s 8.4 percent growth in the first half of 2011, Durán explains, “75% of that went to the richest 10%. That growth is much lower for the average Chilean.”[5] When the media and politicians report on Chile’s growth they tend to omit where that growth is taking place and who reaps its benefits; the statistics are without a doubt positive, but the majority of Chileans are not represented by that growth.
>>14005
>>14155
>implying that capitalism and communism are not the same shit
>>14155
Because communism is an economic and social theory, racism isn't.
>>13989
it's already happening. people have lost faith in big corporations and are starting to learn their own means of production. we are becoming a much more self-sufficient society. people are starting to learn the value of building a society built on mutual respect and cooperation. these are all the things Marx was writing about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA2lCBJu2Gg
Watch this and get BTFO, communist fucking scum.
>>14145
out fuck the blown
>>14005
>Laos and Vietnam
What the fuck?
Also, North Korea calls itself a democratic republic, I'm sure they're democratic.
>>14058
then i guess we can agree.
i'm so glad of having meaningful, calmed discussions on 4chan. my heart is in a rush!
>>14155
Communism doesn't offend you personally in the same way that racism does. If we were to look at ideologies which have caused death and suffering in the same way as racism, than we wouldn't be able to discuss anything. Capatilism, socialism, communism, feudalism and fascism have all caused immense loss of life, yet we still discuss them.
>>14105
We are actually 4 people paid by Bernie Sanders
>>14220
>racism isnt
>what is racialism
>what is National Socialism
>marx never worked
never quite comprehended where this meme came from. A cursory glance a t wikipedia disproves it
>>14291
Could you tell me what are the economic policies of Nazism?
>>14307
mixed economy
>>14307
corporations are in bed with the state
>>14146
>it was done before
Has it been done on a scale that matters? Or are we talking about villages?
>history proved only that when a revolution settles, it's always ruined by an external force.
You absolutely sure lad? It can't be that liberation parties are always a guise for power hungry despots to climb the ladder?
>>14275
we need to start from scratch bro
in the woods, stateless tribes growing their own food and starting a working system all over again.
it can be done, with all the knowledge and learnings from this era, in the future.
>>14155
Because our political elites still favor communism today
They see it still as an ideal endgoal
Ever heard the phrase "communism is good in theory, but.."
The person saying that is clearly implying that it's merely the application of it, thats the problem.
>>13289
>>14337
no that is a Corporatocracy
>>12916
I agree OP.
>>14347
is 8 million people "on a scale that matters"?
>>14346
>racism is a scientific theory that study the difference between races
Holy shit is this what /pol/ actually believes?
>>14418
Maybe in the 1700's.
>>14382
>Engles
Also, ad hommelpom.
>>14443
that's a greater population than most countries in the 1700s
>>14443
I guess the holocaust was nothing then...
>>14500
correct
>>14347
>Has it been done on a scale that matters?
yes, take a look at china.
it can be as tyranical as you want, but they got properly industrialization, a bit late, but relatively successful.
And of course, the free city of Barcelona, didn't last much because of external factors. many others i'm lazy to name.
>Or are we talking about villages?
Villages are the basis of every society, not cities as we know it today. (food doesn't grow on super markets)
> It can't be that liberation parties are always a guise for power hungry despots to climb the ladder?
Welp, i aint no marxist so i cannot defend em this time..
>>14382
Terrible bait, not even worth responding to.
>>14532
>the free city of Barcelona
it was more than barcelona, it was all of catalonia and most of aragón
>>14533
Really? Name one Communistic state that has been successful.
>>14533
It's all true though
>>14532
>yes, take a look at china.
LMAO
The ONLY reason China hasn't burned to the ground is because of Hong Kong, which is a free-market capitalist's wonderland. The mainland is being held together by duct tape and rusted nails
>>14556
Communism includes using all means necessary to incorporate the transitional state. It was all legitimate Communism.
>>14601
>ad hominem is true
wew
>>14556
>>14601
But it's all irrelevant except for the last line.
>>14660
>all applications of his policies have failed
>ad hominem
>>14670
But that's the only line that matters and it's still true lmao kek senpai
>>14713
>I haven't read the communist manifesto
>>14713
A "stateless society" can't exist
>>14664
The only one I accept here is Leopold II.
Pinochet and the Shah did nothing wrong, they killed subversives and communist guerrillas.
I don't know about Frick, is he some American guy?
Daily reminder that Marxists are the creationists of History and Economics
>>14775
>Pinochet and the Shah did nothing wrong, they killed subversives and communist guerrillas.
you are either a dumb american or a shitposter
>>14745
The communist manifesto was the German Communist Party's demands at the time, it shouldn't be used to define communism.
>>14775
>Shah killed subversives
You are so wrong.
>>14593
i know bro.
but Barcelona was the true Uthopy of humanity.
>The ONLY reason China hasn't burned to the ground is because of Hong Kong
this is completely nuts. and by the time the chinese revolution begun, it saved more lifes than killed.
China can sustain itself without even having to import shit if they wanted. they even supply the rest of the world with cheap products that might not be the best but they're all about quantity.
And chinese products are getting better with time desu.
>>14556
>"Holy shit they're having a peasant revolution, we have to stop this!"
>sabotage and/or kill them all
>"Did you see that? Communism doesn't work!"
>>14841
as a mexican i could tell you that marcos was a dumbass who got BTFO by the army
>>14749
So now that you made an ass out of yourself by letting everyone know you're criticizing communism without even knowing its most basic definition, you resort to "W-Well it's impossible because I say so!"?
>>13473
How the fuck is the Extermination of the Native Americans due to capitalism, it was 90% accidental from the get go with disease and shit.
>>14664
The difference is that capitalism doesn't demand a ruthless transitional state that ethically sanctions genocide to result in the desired economic system
It also helps that capitalism actually works when tested, baka kek
It's like when Muslims cry "muh extremists! Most Muslims don't support that!" and pretend that Muhammad wasn't a warrior and that the religion has ever only spread through conquering, kek again
>>14811
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Left_Movement_%28Chile%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Iranian_People's_Fedai_Guerrillas
Hardly innocents.
>>14812
Nice deflection. What should be?
>>14841
>Communism works but it only works when humans as a collective stop being violent and greedy
the post
>>14908
If being a revolutionary is a thought crime, then I guess yeah they weren't "innocents".
>>14841
All off those regimes were dogshit in terms of living standards. They collapsed withing years or a few decades.
kek. communism has still yet to be successful. kike pls go
>>14908
i am a latinoamerican, i know that many victims of pinochet were innocents
>>14830
>saved more lives than killed
>killed 50 million
Source on how many it saved?
>>14933
Nice strawman.
>>14830
Barcelona was a city under military dictatorship where the warlord called itself anarchist. Callim that functioning anarchism is like calling the territory controlled by that crazy baron during the Russian Civil War the "Mongol Empire" because the baron called himself the heir to Genghis Khan.
>>12916
>He was a lazy bitch who never held a real job and mooched off his friend.
sounds like OP
>>14962
That's not a strawman. That's the basis of Marxist theory
>one day human nature collectively will change and then it will work like this!
It's literally believing in magic
>>14977
By the way, these "peaceful" anarchists regularly killed Catholics in Spain, so yes, I'm glad Franco crushed them.
>>14664
Yet capitalism is still going string to this day.
Hell I can even give you an example of a Libertarian economy that is still functionaling beautifully. Hong Kong.
>>14656
It depends on what you mean by legitimate communism. They were the stage prior to real communism, so actual communism still didn't exist in practice (with the possible exception of the short-lived anarchist Catalonia).
Communism requires the country to be totally self-sufficient or for the rest of the world to be communist too.
>>14955
I'm Latin American too and I can tell you they weren't.
>>14893
>So now that you made an ass out of yourself by letting everyone know you're criticizing communism without even knowing its most basic definition
Wrong person
>you resort to "W-Well it's impossible because I say so!"?
It's not possible because people are generally shit at ruling themselves, pic related
>>15042
dame pruebas
>>14830
arguably the revolution reached its full extent in the agricultural areas of aragón. there money was abolished completely and the farms were managed democratically by its workers. here's a quote from an anarchist peasant at the time:
>Here in Fraga [a small town in Aragon], you can throw banknotes into the street,' ran an article in a Libertarian paper, 'and no one will take any notice. Rockefeller, if you were to come to Fraga with your entire bank account you would not be able buy a cup of coffee. Money, your God and your servant, has been abolished here, and the people are happy.
>>15033
So that image is bullshit then. It's total circular logic.
>communism can never reach its final, sustainable state
>communists try as hard as they can to reach it
>they failed, see! It's never been really tried
Horrible. Try again.
>>15007
actually it's believing in progress
i'm guessing you're not a progressive.
>>15016
oh yes the fascists were so much better
>>14935
Picking arms against the government with the intention of overthrowing it and install a communist dictatorship is no mere "thought crime". It's subversion, and subversion is punished.
Notice how no one who complains about the crimes of communism mentions the anti-communist guerrillas who were killed in the aftermath of World War II, like the cursed soldiers of Poland, the forest brothers of the Baltic or the OUN in Ukraine? Because they were fair game, they were fighting and they lost, just like we do not count the members of the White Army who died in the civil war as victims of communism, most times (Rummel probably does, but he is a idiot).
>>15116
No, because the idea that there is an objective linear movement of human progression is insanely facile and retarded
>>14977
>Barcelona was a city under military dictatorship where the warlord called itself anarchist
crazy stuff desu. doesn't deserve an answer.
>>15016
how many have been killed by the holy catholic church?
and tell me why didn't the orthodox of the east kill as many people as catholics?
Do you not see the true evil that is the catholic church?.
>>14977
Who was the warlord
>>15116
Oh god my sides
>>15138
I'm glad they were efficient, otherwise Spain would just become another Soviet Union.
Imagine if Kolchak was efficient like Franco, he would have crushed the Bolsheviks at the cradle, and what would we be hearing now? How Soviet democracy was amazing, how Lenin was that super democratic leader and how the destruction of Bolshevism before it could bloom witheld from the world the chance of seeing true, peaceful and unadultered communism.
>>15182
Roman Ungern-Sternberg, who was considered crazy by every one of his contemporaries. Fascinating guy, but godamn insane.
>>15209
>keeps lumping anarchists and communists together
nicely wew'd my lad
>>15163
>how many have been killed by the holy catholic church?
Less people in 300 years that the Jacobins killed in a few months in France.
>>15242
No, I mean the warlord of Barcelona
>>15253
Everything in the kill count post was communists, senpai
And the end state of communism is a stateless society aka anarchism you dumbass. Communism is literally socialist anarchy.
>>15293
>MUH POL BOOGEYMAN
fucking kekking
>>15293
>no true revolutionary
>>15253
So which is it commies?
>Stateless society
>Totalitarian regime
Pick one and stick with it
>posted from my iPhone: the thread
>>15329
implying that i use degenerate iphones
>>15312
>And the end state of communism is a stateless society aka anarchism you dumbass
>lists "communist" states and holds communism accountable for all the people who died
i think the retard is you
>>15168
Leninism is a valid interpretation of Marxism. As I said, if conservative parties killed millions in the XXth century trying to apply the theories of some XIXth century conservative scholar like Ranke or Burckhardt, we wouldn't hear the end of the left scratching it's ass telling how evil these ideas were.
>>14841
Rather than go through the list, why don't you just tell me Chavez or his successor, Nicholas 'the mustache' Maduro, have been hampered by anti-government protesters in accomplishing what they wanted to do with government. Because Both have been able to do completely whatever they have wanted no Venezuela faces shortages of basic staples and inflation rates as high as 600%.
>>15156
no one said progress has to be an objective linear movement. society is constantly changing, and so are it's goals. Marxism isn't the only possible ideal for society, but it's a direction you can move in. it doesn't require violent revolution.
>>12916
>stalin killed millions of children with his moustache meme
alright capitalist shill
>>15103
This is really difficult to discuss, so I'm just going to summarize communism to the best of my knowledge as a layman.
- the bourgeois (ruling class, guys who are best off in current society) must be removed from power
- this usually means stripping them of their money, titles, political positions, etc.
- a new regime is established which then either spreads to enough countries that they can trade resources or works toward self-sufficiency
- when either of those are actionable they transition into legitimate communism
All the "communism is bad" shit is really just "(ideological) communist societies were bad" not "(the practice of) communism is bad. All the established (ideological) communist societies were created around the same time, so they all used a very similar strategy.
A good strategy that expects the actual communist state to be years or centuries away would have to create a good, functioning society in the meantime.
In short, yeah communism has never REALLY had a shot, just a lot of bad attempts at creating sustainable pre-communist societies.
>>12916
I am gonna help support you
here's a "Swedish" commie and open supporter of Antifa and YPG
I added a bonus to the convo at the end
>>15370
>transitional states of communism cannot be associated with communism
This is the largest mental gymnastics of all time comparable with denying evolution
>>15456
It shouldn't require violent revolution but since it's an in accurate diagnosis of human nature it does and it will always result in travesty and will always fail
>>15047
>>15293
> i'm against state, so i won't defend communism.
Communism doesn't require a state. There's an anarchist variant that argues against establishing a government during the pre-communist period
if it comes down to whether I want want this board to be a /pol/ circlejerk or a /leftypol/ circlejerk I would pick /pol/ to be honest
devil you know right family?
>>15631
yeah you're right.
i meant Marxism instead.
>>14899
>Extermination of the Native Americans due to capitalism
Wasn't the whole idea of colonizing America just to expand the United Kingdoms power and industrialization?
>>13402
Gb2 lefty/pol/
>>15599
if you say so buddy
>>15328
It's both, there's state communism (which requires acquiring political control over the state) and anarcho-communism which argues that maintaining the state is a terrible idea and it should be abolished/phased out as quickly as possible
>>15715
I've got a hundred years of history on my side. When I'm proven wrong you can rub it in my face.
>>15747
You can't make broad arguments about what's possible and say "history says X" as if there weren't a myriad of variables that affected a particular outcome
the thing with these guys is that they are not really informed on the left. i bet they just skipped all the leftist literature because "it waz sum commie shit i tell ya"
there are so many variants of it that discussing about stalin over and over gets tiresome.
these right wing retards should just read more. and not the fucking communist manifesto only.
>>15630
>He hasn't read Lord of the Flies
All civilizations throughout human history form their governments out of the most capable people they can find because they realize how incapable most people are at taking care of themselves. Your shitty attempt at making human nature to seem like a circular argument makes you look like a teenager from /b/
OP is a troll or seriously mentally challenged.
If he ACTUALLY read some of Marx's work, I'm sure he wouldn't blame the Cold War communism on him.
>Go to /hist/ expecting discussion
>See the same shitty memes as on /pol/
Well, I guess there's a tad bit more discussion going on here than on /pol/ usually, but nothing really changed, I see.
>>15984
the worst part is that this board is only a day old.
>>15883
yeah seeing all the people here arguing about weirdly specific stuff like "stalin was evil" and "communism doesn't work" and shit is so bizarre because things just really aren't that simple
>>15888
Oh but *you* can take care of yourself and so can all of your close friends, but the idiot masses are incapable of functioning without a government to protect them. They all go into starbucks and don't get into fist fights and loud arguments because they fear retribution rather than because they're generally sane people who can fight the impulse to get physical when they have a disagreement
>>13081
You mean stalinism, you faggot. There is nothing religious in the Paris commune.
>>15835
Marxism is false until proven true. Seeing a century of failed attempts to make it so would make a logical person realize it probably never will.
>>16098
>people here don't like communism
LOL GUIZ IT'S /POL/
>>16058
But communism cannot work and will never work. It is that simple. Stay mad.
What was Marx's government structure, OP? Vanguard parties establishing murderous dictatorships wasn't his idea, it was Lenin's.
The social democrats stuck as close to Marxist thought as the Bolsheviks did if not closer.
>>16058
honestly i think discussing politics on 4chan is retarded.
i bit today because was bored but this is just time lost my brother.
>>16172
if i say that i live communism you start acting like kikes and feminists here
>MUH HOLODOMOR
>MUH OPRESHUN
>>12916
>Implying transitioning from an agrarian feudal economy to a communist one via bloody revolution was what marx intended.
The guy saw the value in capitalism, and saw communism as the next logical step. It's less a battle between two opposing forces, and more the natural course of history.
>>16256
*like
>>16172
Not that anon, but half of the thread is just shitposting. You can dislike communism for all I care, but a good chunk of the thread is just
>LOL COMMIES
and stupid meme pictures that I've seen years back on /pol/.
If you don't want to be associated with /pol/ then don't fucking act like /pol/.
There's a lot of reasons for why the USSR ended up failing. Socialism is only one of them, and I wouldn't call it the dominant one. While it's probably not going to outperform capitalism, and I'm not a huge friend of the ideology - I consider it too utopian, not suitable for humanity as it stands - it could have somewhat worked out and provided reasonable results for the people, in another scenario.
But Russia tried to use it
a) Without going through capitalism first. This means, it didn't have the production base to catch the instabilities of the shift, and the loss of production meant people ended up starving.
b) As a matter of ideology to be pushed on everyone else, resulting in the cold war. It's not a smart idea to fight an economic and scientific competition against an opponent that not only has a better starting poing (the west was far less destroyed after ww2), but also a larger production base due to population.
c) During an oppressive dictatorship, which always means inefficiencies and corruption costing you a lot of potential.
d) While wasting huge amounts of resources on prestige project, a general problem of dictatorships.
And yes, I'm saying socialism, because what Russia tried to implement was the economic part of communism, while staying far away from its social implications, regarding equality (it definitly had a ruling class in its party) or the removal of the state (definitly not). Consequently, it wasn't called the USCR, but the USSR.
>>16058
Your whole argument is based on the idea that societies don't need government to function. Since every government in the world is created by the people they rule, there should be at least 1 society without government that actually functions. I sure don't see any, and it probably won't exist for a very long time
>>12916
I can't prove you wrong, because you are right. I like his beard tho.
>>14434
wahhhhh muh /pol/ nodsee bogeyman
>>16337
this is their best respond
>>12916
communists are retarded children, sniveling and illogical excrement of society. i, personally, wouldnt consider them human.
>>16324
a new society has to be born far away from cities.
starting from scratch with high human value and rethinking another system with the knowledge we already have and our learnings..
this wont happen though, because everyone is just too comfy being wage slaves to start a project like that.
and this is why, ladies and gentlemen. i dont fit anywhere i go.
except with my rum of course. my rum never betrays me..
>>16247
Just check this out then https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-are-you-an-anarchist-the-answer-may-surprise-you.pdf
>>16324
The typical argument is that the state was once necessary and isn't anymore, but I'm not like hard and fast convinced anarchy is a plausible outcome. I think anarchist ideals (ethical basis for creating a society, govt/power is pretty dangerous and you can't trust anyone with it long-term, the lowest class in a society should still be pretty well off) are good whether abolishing government ever becomes a practical choice or not
You should read the above link too.
>>16439
Yooo what the fuck, they're called wage slaves because they don't have an alternative if they want to survive/thrive. Of course they don't go off and start a new society, where the fuck would they even get the resources?
A project like that necessarily must be started by someone of the bourgeois. Your misanthropy is depressing but luckily it's also misguided. You should study more about why people make the decisions they do, they are usually very human reasons
>>16316
>While it's probably not going to outperform capitalism
compare Russia's performance under communism and capitalism
expecting some agrarian shithole to outperform bigger industrial country is the same as expecting little shop kill the nearby walmart
>>16528
>they're called wage slaves because they don't have an alternative if they want to survive/thrive.
they do have an alternative and this is what is sad about 1st world countries, their comfyness (even leftists comfyness inside the capitalistic system)
the alternative is to leave everything behind. start over as several agricultural communes. united under federations.
i can go on about this subject but it's really long. basically just starting over.
i did it for a while, but had to go back to the city sadly. it is of course not easy. and requires lots of physical work too.
>>16703
>compare Russia's performance under communism and capitalism
Under its current rather capitalistic system, it's doing comparably well. The bread lines are gone, as far as I know. It had, again, changing pains after 1990, but those went away by now. It's not exactly the pinnacle of the world, but it's a developed country where people can reasonably live a good life.
Comparing it to how it was before socialism makes no sense because it wasn't capitalist, it was feudalist.
>>12916
>This man's philosophy and government structure killed 10's of millions of people and set back a large portion of the world technologically.
Identifying Marx as the efficient cause of 20th political movements is ridiculous. You might just as well hold early physicists responsible for the shelling of Sarajevo.
>He was a lazy bitch...
Based on the amount of work he accomplished in his lifetime, laziness is the last thing he could be accused of. He devoted himself completely to his passion and contributed a new system of historical and sociological analysis.
>...who never held a real job...
I can't imagine what constitutes a 'real' job, but your definition must not include research, writing, publishing, or secretarial work if Marx never had one. You condemnation includes nearly the whole intelligentsia.
>...and mooched off his friend.
Poor Socrates suffers equally under the weight of such an accusation.
>The only thing more delusional than him is his supporters. Prove me wrong.
You inveighed, but you did not criticize. Unproven personal attacks don't require counter-proof.
>this is what capitalists actually believe
That's why they started drinking themselves to death en masse, stopped having the money for kids, and billionaire oligarchs captured the economy, right?
>>16714
Creating small pockets where it's safe and comfortable to live in the cracks of the existing systems is plausible, but scaling those into actually viable countries just isn't doable. Wage slaves would have to join existing pockets that were already started by the bourgeois, and I don't personally know of any so that's likely an issue too.
If you're talking about doing this on a small scale, chances are it is happening already and you just don't know about it
>this thread
>>16841
>but scaling those into actually viable countries just isn't doable.
i'd call those communes, not countries.
this system i'm talking about doesn't have physical borders, just administrative ones, meaning you can travel and move freely between communes without passport of any kind.
>Wage slaves would have to join existing pockets that were already started by the bourgeois
nah bro, the communes are started by wage slaves themselves!, the bourgueois will never do this i'm proposing.
>chances are it is happening already and you just don't know about it
it is happening, i was in one, i had to go back.
it is just hard to achieve. almost impossible.
only with the right committed people
>>17013
>only with the right committed people
So... what's everyone else going to do?
I mean, aside from using industrial capitalism to outperform you by a factor of a thousand, isolate you and underbid you at every turn, making sure that you never gain any sort of power or significant prosperity, of course.
There're no such thing as communist state exist in history. It's just dictatorship hide under communist mask
