Why has Islam failed to modernize unlike Christianity or Judaism?
No usury. Can't have a capitalist economy without usury.
it's not precisely islam that failed to modernize, it's that every secular muslim leader in the middle east has a funny way of getting bumped off by the US.
Religion is intimately connected with the host society.
Arab society is still shit.
Blame constant ethnic bullshit, the Cold War, and the Ottomans.
>>1283351
'Modernization' is a Zionist plot
In'shallah ISIS will rule
>>1283362
>mfw the US saved Nasser's ass from the Soviets
>mfw the US backed Saddam until he went full retard
>mfw the US has been supporting snackbar repressing military states in Egypt and Turkey since forever
>mfw the US tried to bring in peacekeepers to stop everyone in Lebanon from killing each other, but the Iranians couldn't allow that
You made the classic mistake of assuming that the US is omnipotent, and everything that happens is their will.
>>1283351
But it did modernize. Unfortunately, religious fanatics tend to be more anti-communist than secular liberals, so the U.S. government decided it would be a good idea to create jihadism.
>>1283361
Are you telling me Jews are responsible for western civilization?
>>1283383
literally yes
>>1283362
Don't forget the immense amount of funding our "allies" give to terroist groups which go on to target the West.
But hey, forget about ISIS and Al-Qaeda and other Sunni terrorists, we have to focus our entire efforts on protecting Israel from that evil Iran.
>>1283382
That's not how that went famalamadingdong. The Shah was Western backed, Jimmy Carter was a total retard and decided to neither support or be against the new government of Iran, so later all retards (both USSR and US aligned nations) backed Saddam which devastated Iran, and now wonder why on earth the Iranian government has a chip on its shoulder.
I wonder why.
>>1283383
Is this even debatable?
No culture had more of an influence on the west. Greece and Rome are a close second, but a second to be sure.
The Jews shaped Rome more than Rome shaped the Jews.
The Jewish holy book is the most important book in Western history.
Who could be responsible for this?
These after pictures coincidently resembles how Berlin, Hiroshima and Nagasaki looked after World War II. Who could be behind this?
>>1283430
Strongman leadership and pack mentality?
>>1283430
>it wasn't Russians guise
>I swear
>it was dirty fat Americans
Nice try Ivan
>>1283412
>The Jews shaped Rome
Ah, so that's how the Roman Empire fell. Makes sense.
>>1283430
War is a helluva drug, especially when your enemies are just as indigenous as you are.
>>1283430
An evil tyrant known mysteriously as "The Cherry Picker" and his insidious side kick "Mr. Nothing Stays the Same Forever"
>>1283351
Because Westernization happened in the West.
Shinto was only able to become Westernized because all Shinto believers lived under Japanese sovereignty.
>>1283438
>dirty fat Americans
No mentioned Americans but you.
https://youtu.be/Zo17biJzRtc
Bolsheviks were responsible for it, not Zionism!
Good goyim.
>>1283457
>Russians still try and blame other people for the things they ruin
America may wreck nations, but they are absolute amateurs by Russian standards.
>>1283443
I kekd
Because the US backed radical conservative fundamentalist elements in their religion to serve as an anti-Communist front during the Cold War and we are now witnessing the blowback.
Hell, the US still gives massive amounts of military and political support to Wahhabi Saudi Arabia up to this day.
>>1283351
Because it is correct.
>>1283379
>You made the classic mistake of assuming that the US is omnipotent, and everything that happens is their will.
>mistake
>assuming
>>1283544
This is correct.
Also, Israel/jews.
>>1283351
To keep on topic...
The reason Christianity and Judaism have evolved is that modern Christians and Jews have learned to ignore the parts of the Bible that conflict with not murdering people for sin. And to be fair, the new testament has a good deal about not casting the first stone etc etc.
But Islam is a literal religion. Its not to be translated or discounted.
And to continue to be fair, "liberal" Muslims that have integrated into western society have learned to ignore the "bad" parts of their religion like modern Christians do.
However, they are being very bad Muslims in the process.
>>1283403
But Saudi, not Iran, is the source of most of our problem.
Bin Laden is not a Persian name.
>>1283597
>But Saudi, not Iran, is the source of most of our problem.
US (and formerly Soviet) involvement in the Middle East is the problem.
The retarded pissing contest between Saudi Arabia and Iran is the problem.
>>1283616
For fuck's sake. We should have let the Soviets win in Afghanistan.
Seriously, we wouldn't have atheist communists ramming jets into the twin towers if the Soviet Union was still around beating down on the Muslims.
>>1283630
*tips fedora*
>>1283616
>US (and formerly Soviet) involvement in the Middle East is the problem.
Well duh.
>The retarded pissing contest between Saudi Arabia and Iran is the problem.
This one I'm more averse to. I like Iran for having actual culture and history, even if the current Islamic Republic is shit.
String up the Saud family, but give Iran something nice.
>>1283383
pretty much yeah
>>1283593
>But Islam is a literal religion
That's a stupid thing to say.
The Quran is written in a purely poetic style, some verses are thus metaphorical and/or vague. The fact it is poetic makes it hard - even impossible - to translate completely.
>people think that Iran and Saudi Arabia wouldn't continue to chimp out without US help
>people think that countries with large oil deposits and insane clerics wouldn't be causing trouble regardless of what the US does
>>1283616
>US (and formerly Soviet) involvement in the Middle East is the problem.
Yes yes goyim. Blame the US and Soviets. Establishing the state of Israel in Palestine has nothing to do with the mess that is going in the Middle East.
>>1283636
So when the Quran and the Hadiths say to kill someone, they are just being poetic about it?
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... "
Is that translated wrong? Seems pretty clear on the matter.
>>1283642
The Juden are who Arabs blame when things go wrong.
They learned it from the Germans.
>>1283652
If everybody says you're an asshole, maybe you ARE an asshole
>>1283649
That was a verse revealed to Mohammad granting him God's blessing to protect his people and justification in attacking his enemies. Him specifically.
Each of the chapters of the Quran have a historic context that many Salafists (read: Saudis, ISIS) and Westerners don't take into consideration. The Quran is a prescription to mankind in the sense that we need to look at the context in which the chapter was derived--i.e. when you and your family are being driven into exile, attacked and killed en masse you have a right to defend yourself (sounds familiar, doesn't it?)
With that said, the Quran says in many other instances that fighting solely in defense is the way of God, which is why you have countries like Iran which haven't started a war in over 250 years.
>>1283669
Iran may not start wars, but they sure do like to bankroll them
>>1283652
Yes, just like how you're blaming Germany for muh antisemitism
>>1283673
Every fucking country does.
>>1283680
Ah yes, the eternal Nepalese
>>1283686
Damn right you are.
You should be luck Great Nepal doesn't wreck your shit up.
>>1283640
funny, they only started chimping out once the US showed up on the scene and started bankrolling extremist groups to fight Communists
prior to that most terror attacks in the Mideast were carried out by Zionists against the British authorities in Jordan and Palestine (see King David Hotel bombings)
>>1283680
Ah yes, the eternal Tibetans
>>1283669
So if you are to be rewarded in the life here after, why be so concerned with worldly affairs.
Jesus basically let them kill him and told his followers to forgive his enemies.
Where Mohamed when full batshit and exterminated entire tribes instead of trying to forgive them.
Is that the kind of holy man you want to follow?
>>1283673
>Iran may not start wars, but they sure do like to bankroll them
You mean like how the US supports terrorist militias in South and Central America, sold guns to the Mexican cartels, or sends aid to Al Qaeda and other terror groups in Syria and Libya today?
>>1283363
>blame the Ottomans
How? Why?
>>1283745
Yeah, like that.
I don't even get the point of your post.
>>1283740
Not even a Muslim but I'd rather follow an alpha who united his people and built an empire from scratch rather than some whiny delusional SJW cuck virgin who lived with his mom.
The problem is that Islam offers a societal blueprint.
Christianity not as much. Judaism is a little moreso, but since they've been diasporic and now mostly secularized through centuries of being the stranger in a host culture, they haven't really had the chance to build a theocracy ( although the growing Chassidic community in Israel is definitely posing a real challenge in that regard ).
Buddhism doesn't so either.. And so forth.
>>1283763
Lol Tibet was one.
>>1283740
Early Christianity a fucked up martydom culture. Like disturbing as hell if you weren't a Christian back in the day it would creep you out like a cult today.
>>1283351
Colonialism
>>1283763
>The problem is that Islam offers a societal blueprint.
It doesn't, not naturally anyway. What has happened is that over the past century and arguably in limited ways before that Islam has had to buttress the social order of a Middle East that almost overnight lost all of its traditional civic culture and institutions. In order to prevent complete anarchy the Arabs began looking to religion to prop up their culture as political and economic stability crumbled.
The reason Christianity and Judaism modernized is that the very opposite happened for European Christian and Jewish communities - their civil culture formed solid institutions around which their societies could flourish without need for religion to become their foundations.
Fix the society and the religion tends to follow along as a way for people to reflect their views of that society. A lot of modern Islamic beliefs are a reflection of their current political and social chaos for that reason.
>>1283800
Thanks to the Mongols who helped monastic orders get in charge.
>>1283636
>The fact it is poetic makes it hard - even impossible - to translate completely.
rank bullshit
>>1283383
so /pol/ btfo?
Desert ragheads overreacting to colonialism that didn't even affect them that much.
Because "muh bid'ah! Moduhnism and Sufism so heretical guise"
Fucking chimps.
>>1283888
Literalism is convenient to you and murderers like Omar here.
But it's, fundamentally (heheheh) incorrect.
>>1283824
On the contrary. The fall of those monastic orders is what led to the destruction of Islamic heritage.
Even at their very worst, The Ottomans and Safavids were glorious patrons of enlightenment compared to Puritan checkerhead trash that has fully cucked like half of Islam today.
>>1283763
>The problem is it's integrated into a social system
Lol. So is all religion you fucking retard.
>>1283383
Uhh, are you denying their role in it? It was just as important and influential as the Greek and roman contributions. If not slightly more.
>>1284233
Colonialism did affect them though.
>>1283649
>Heh! c-checkmate faggot! I-if you point out I took this out of it's traditional context then you're just an SJW cuck.
>>1284266
Oh no. not redrawn borders.
>>1283351
Because unlike Christianity's Bible which was written by the Apostles, The Qu'an was written by "God" through Mohammed. With Christianity you can interpret things different ways because the text isn't "straight from God" and could be lost in translation. Also the West (Where Christianity was rooted into) has grown more secular and has to modernize to survive.
Islam though, cannot be altered and the text cannot be wrongly interpreted because "It's clearly and exactly as God said". Also all the stuff above about secular rule in the Middle East usually being targets by the West for being dictators. Without any secular ruler to keep them in check, Islam will remain as it was since it's beginnings.
This is why the Catholic Church now accepts evolution as being correct and many Sunni Islamic Scholars say things like "Earthquakes are caused by gay men and women who drive."
One was able to reform itself and accept the future while the other was created in such a way that it can never progress or change.
Islam is fundamentally incompatible with the West because Islam is expansionist and has no conception of separation of church and state.
>>1284273
That's pretty massive.
Also Israel.
>>1284276
and the Catholic Church is dying.
Also Islam has no central body so clerics can really say anything they want or say stuff that supports a certain power or whoever pays them.
>>1283593
>they are being very bad Muslims in the process
Not really though (if you actually understand the Quran) most 'sins' you can commit aren't going to stop you from getting into Heaven and shit. Like you can drink and fuck all the time like the Turks and other older Muslims used to do, but there are a few super serious sins you can't get away from. Mostly though you get good deed points far more easily than you can get bad deed points. You're even allowed to convert to some other religion if you're forced and you life is under threat. You can eat pig if you would otherwise have nothing else to eat. People got this silly idea of trying to live like the prophets and saints and shit from Hadith idiots. Normal people aren't supposed to be like them, they were special people and even then it was hard for them to be that 'pure.'
>>1284402
Isreal is annoying and kills Palestinian kids. But they don't effect nearly as much as the Arab media likes to theorize. Arabs have literally no sense of self criticism at. all.
It's mind boggling.
>>1283649
>So when the Quran and the Hadiths say to kill someone, they are just being poetic about it?
There also a very strong contextual link to each hadith and sunnah in the circumstances upon which they were made. This is forgotten by a lot of muslims and non-muslims 'analysing' it.
>>1283351
To be fair they still have few hundred years to make it in the same time as Christians.
>>1284688
It doesn't work that way.
Baha'is were there over a thousand years after Islam started. And they're all "caught up" to Modern Liberal values. What's your point?
>>1284688
You mean basically dead everywhere but shitty places?
>>1284688
The reformation that occurred in Catholic Europe is not possible in Islam, because it doesn't have the single structure required for it.
