Which is better?
>Catholic
Pros:
Apostolic sucession, ancient tradition, liturgy, music and art, miracles, philosophy: Thomas Aquinas
Cons:
Has to accept refugees, Pope Francis, Vatican II, papal infalibility, indulgences, crusades, witch-hunting, Galileo debacle, can't fap
>Orthodox:
Pros:
Same as Catholic, minus philosophy, emphasis on church fathers, doesn't change doctrine, mysticism, ethnic and national rather than universalistic
Cons:
I don't know it very well but critics say it's usually tied to the state, Russian church filled with FSB agents, diaspora priests actually spies, got BTFO by the T*rks and lost its capital Constantinople
>Protestant
Pros:
Independence from overarching governing bodies, cannot be excomminucated, no intermediary before God, Protestant nations usually more developed than Catho and Ortho ones
Cons:
Unaesthetic as fuck, retarded pro-Israel/Zionism, universalistic, no miracles
>>1280676
>Catholics
>Apostolic succession
lel
Anyway you seem to be wondering which has the most swag. In which case Catholic.
>>1280680
What's wrong with apostolic succession?
>>1280686
Nothing, I'm saying Catholicism doesn't have it. I'm not convinced anyone does. On the count that Peter massively disagreed with Paul's theology that the Catholic church is basically built on there's no chance he's "the first pope".
Religious leaders claiming lineage to St. Peter is on the same level as maniacs who say the British royal family is descended from King David.
>>1280676
catholic
orthodox
>mfw literally disobeying the first two commandments
Protestantism is so far ahead of the other two this question is stupid
>>1280676
>>Catholic cons
>Has to accept refugees
meme
>crusades
What's wrong with the Holy Crusades?
>Galileo debacle
meme
>>Orthodox
>pros
>ethnic and national rather than universalistic
You seem to be confusing Christianity with Judaism. Maybe you should stick to role-playing as a germanic pagan.
>There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
I won't even read what you wrote for protestantism because that shouldn't even be an option. You either fall for the "orthodox" meme or join the One, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church founded by Christ Himself.
>>1280676
>Apostolic sucession
The real successor to the apostolate is the NT itself, since it continues their ministry within the church of God. The office is incommunicable.
>>1280700
>Religious leaders claiming lineage to St. Peter is on the same level as maniacs who say the British royal family is descended from King David.
'no'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes#Chronological_list
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KV6PXSODgE
>>1280676
>Protestants didn't hunt witches
>>1280676
>minus philosophy
Wrong, f.e. see the Cappadocian Fathers who formulated the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, of one ousia and three hypostaseis.
>ethnic and national rather than universalistic
Also wrong, because the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinopole is indeed ecumenical, it has churches in, for example, Italy and they aren't open just to the Greeks, and an Orthodox clergyman is free to join the liturgy and pray in his non-Greek language.
>>1280784
>they aren't open just to the Greeks
enjoy nasty looks
Crusades , no proof (bible is a load of bullshit) e.g basic knowledge gives me autism when i read it.
>>1280771
What's wrong with the church universal expressing herself in many national and ethnic traditions, as long as there is unity of doctrine? Humanity is naturally divided in extended families, tribes, nations, languages and ethnicities. God himself divided the world according to nations. If God wanted a homogeneous "one world" he would have made it so. It's the anti-Christian globalist elites who constantly push for universalism and the abolition of nations and have consciously revived the symbolism of Babel as an affront to God.
>>1280841
>What's wrong with the church universal expressing herself in many national and ethnic traditions, as long as there is unity of doctrine?
You just described the Catholic Church.
>>1280676
>Galileo debacle
Galileo was a dick who got away with a lot because his patron protected him. When his patrons died he had no protection and he got his just dessert.
>muh pc pope
Pope says gay marriage is from satan
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/pope-francis-same-sex-marriage-move-father-lies-total-rejection-gods-law
Pope Francis speaks against Gay adoption
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/pope-francis-shocked-by-gay-adoption-urges-bishop-to-speak-against-it-boldly/
Compares trans rights to nuclear arms race
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/pope-francis-compares-arguments-for-transgender-rights-to-nuclear-arms-race-10061223.html
Pope Francis says that there's no salvation outside the Church
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/06/03/pope-francis-is-under-attack-for-saying-that-outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation-its-a-poke-in-the-eye-says-one-presbyterian-why-hes-wrong/
He excommunicates an Australian priest supporting gay marriage and women clergy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/24/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-greg-reynolds_n_3983059.html
Pope Francis is against gender theory and for traditional gender roles
http://ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/pope-francis-gender-theory-problem-not-solution
Pope is against abortion
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/09/23/pope-francis-on-abortions-innocent-victims-its-wrong-to-look-the-other-way-or-remain-silent/
He Encourages the use of force against ISIS
http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-francis-endorses-use-of-force-against-isis-in-iraq-2014-8
Pope Francis is against lukewarm "faith"
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-off-the-cuff-to-priests-religious-indifference-makes-god-vomit-69700/
The Pope is misquoted often
http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/7-times-pope-francis-was-misquoted-132679/
The Pope Rebukes Communist Cross
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/bolivia/11729834/Pope-rebukes-Bolivias-President-Evo-Morales-for-gift-of-crucifix-mounted-on-hammer-and-sickle.html
>>1280676
>got BTFO by the T*rks and lost its capital Constantinople
>Unaesthetic as fuck
>russian orthodox is only orthodox
>can't fap
How old are you? Christianity isn't something you believe because it's "cool" or "aesthetic." Why don't you learn some more about each denomination's theology before posting crap like this.
Like >>1280680 said, if you want to know which one has the most "swag" then you're probably not old enough to post here.
>>1280881
>You're too immature to post in an Easter Islander moai sculpting workshop
You realize how pathetic you sound trying to act all "mature" while posting in an anime image board?
>>1280845
Except the church fathers didn't recognize the Roman pontiff as the supreme authority.
>>1280980
except they did. I have loads of church fathers quotes about it. Besides, in the Council of Florence the orthodox Church literally accepted papal supremacy, before being forced to change their mind by people and for reasons that have nothing to do with theology..
>>1280676
you don't need tradition, philosophy and aesthetic.
just make deal with the Jesus, you are all set.
>>1280996
>I have loads of church fathers quotes about it
let's see
>>1280676
Catholic south america tried to annihilate natives, but failed. Protestant north america performed natives genocide perfectly.
Orthodox cant even into genocide.
So protestants are clearly the best.
>>1281012
it is not formatted though
http://pastebin.com/niE7SvXS
>>1281012
if that doesn't satiate you, here are quotes from the councils:
http://pastebin.com/B6PHrhdS
>>1281047
btw these are all Eastern Church Fathers
Where the fuck is Constantine when you need him.
>Protestant
>Unaesthetic as fuck
You need to get yourself some Kierkegaard, lad.
>>1280703
Explain this
>>1281474
Kierkegaard's existentialism is in fact incompatible with Evangelical and Reformed Protestantism. It's also incompatible with Luther because of Kierkegaard's affirmation of free will
>>1280790
Have you ever even been in an Orthodox Church? I'm a Morrocan Jew and no one looks at me funny at the Russian Orthodox Church I've been going to.
>>1280976
You have to be 18 to post here, regardless of how mature you are and I hope that no one above the age of 18 is as immature as op
>>1281443
He's not needed to shill orthodoxy.
None is better. There is only only true Christianity without division.
Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, doesn't matter when you have the same love for God.
Who cares how you view church life and religious traditions, it is all irrelevant of you don't put your trust in Christ and His teachings.
>>1281510
"Evangelical Protestantism" is in fact the belief in a Trinitarian God who was incarnate in the person of Jesus of Nazareth and atoned for humanity's sins on the cross then was risen from the dead by the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit as recorded in the scriptures.
Kierkegaard believed this and therefore he is part of the club.
t. Evangelical seminarian
>>1281695
Amen.
I find each to offer a numinous experience that is pretty different and beautiful in its own way.
>>1281702
That's so vague that practically the entirety of Christianity believes and agrees with that statement. Evangelical Sola Fide follows Calvin and does not allow room for doubt. You must know you believe. Luther and Kierkegaard sees the soul as struggling to hold onto God and hope for the future. Both emphasize the theme of despair and doubt. Evangelicals, following in Calvin's view of Salvation cannot claim to be in agreement with Kierkegaard whose soteriology is Luther with the free will
>>1281741
Listen pal, not all Evangelicals are Calvinists and who is within or without our spiritual community is ultimately up to Jesus Himself. The faith statement I posted is broad because it contains the non-negotiable information but there is room for disagreement within our faith on a host of other issues such as those you mentioned.
>>1280676
Which is better at what? Making sure its members go to heaven?
Catholic: 2% to 3% saved.
Orthodox: 4% to 6% saved.
Christians: 100% saved.
Which looks better to you?
>>1281510
Daily Reminder Luther was a filthy papist friar who could no longer stomach the vile Roman church.
>>1281752
No one's saying that but that Evagelical soteriology is really more infleunced by Calvin. The Arminians themselves were after all, Reformed. This is somewhat pointed out by Philip Cary in his essay showing how Luther's soteriology is not really Protestant.
>>1281702
Actually, if you read the bible carefully, you will find that the Father, Son, and Spirit all raised Jesus from the dead.
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”
Father: Galatians 1: Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead):
Spirit:
Romans 8
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Our God is One.
>>1281769
Luther was a catholic. Of course he was wrong.
Calvin and Arminius are both wrong in different ways.
Let all men be wrong ,and God be right. Read the bible, not the books about the bible.
>>1281761
He got it wrong on Sola Scriptura
>>1281781
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is inspired by God.
>muh traditions
Filth.
>>1281780
Where in the Bible can I find the statement of its boundaries?
None of the above.
>>1281787
The non sola scriptura sects all believe in that. The surrounding context of that verse also mentions Tradition in the sense of what the Apostles taught the audience, not all of which are written down
>>1281791
I've told you four times.
2 Timothy 3:16-17.
All scriptures are inspired by God.
Inspired by God? Yes? Scripture.
Not inspired by God? Not scripture.
>>1281769
You seem to have misunderstood what the label "Evangelical Christian" means; It comes from the Greek εὐαγγέλιον which means "bringer of good news" (i.e. preacher of the Gospel) and refers to the Gospel-oriented attitude of our spirituality. Calvin was a brilliant mind but he was a man just like you or I and therefore his teachings are only profitable insofar as they point to the good news achieved by Jesus Christ. All good theologians are merely pointing to what Christ accomplished and one's relationship with Christ is ultimately what makes someone an "Evangelical" and not adherence to a particular theologian.
>>1281798
Any tradition that was written in the inspired bible, sure.
Any tradition that is not, why would you waste your time?
Any tradition in the bible that is foul and evil? Are you wise enough to know the difference?
No?
>>1280676
>minus philosophy
I'm Catholic, and I'm just gonna tell you this is where you fucked up. The Orthodox basically invented transcendental philosophy, and preserved Platonism.
Also, I'd look into the legacy if byzantine government for good cons against Orthodoxy.
>>1281780
if nobody gets it right, what's the point of divine revelation in the first place? Are you saying God is not capable of giving perfect truth, in the limits of the knowable by human intelligence? s m h
>>1281810
Calvin was literally anti-Evangelical.
>>1281815
To know that you are inferior to God, and to trust Him on things you cannot understand, for one.
>>1281807
>Inspired by God? Yes? Scripture.
>Not inspired by God? Not scripture.
That verse does not exclude that there is something not in Scripture which is inspired by God, only that for something to constitute Scripture it must be inspired by God. Can you read?
>>1281807
You are not answering the question at all. For one to play Sola Scriptura, it is important to know Scripture's composition but in none of the 66 books do we get any of that
>>1281820
ok but if there is stuff in the Bible that he gave to us, it means he wanted us to understand it. If you come up with different interpretations, clearly somebody got the right message from God and someone else didn't. God does nothing for no reason, don't you agree? So why would he reveal stuff to us, lots of stuff, that is simply useless? Doesn't sound right to me. Don't you agree?
>>1281821
Inspired by God? In.
Not inspired by God? Not in.
Can you?
>>1281829
Inspired by God? Scripture
Not inspired by God? Not Scripture
It does not say that there is nothing outside Scripture that is inspired by God. You are twisting Scriptures to fit your agenda.
>>1281818
No because he spread the good news that Jesus came to save us from the total depravity of our sinful natures.
>>1281828
That people cannot understand the Word of God should not be some sort of secret; it's rather loudly pronounced throughout the bible that men make up their own meanings, and discard God's.
It's also noted by Paul that we see things as through a glass, darkly.
So it's important not only to keep that in mind, but to have the bible explain itself, back itself up with more than one witness, and remain harmonized with what we do know, for sure.
>>1281834
Did he? Or did he say that if you were going to be saved, it had nothing to do with you? And that if your neighbor was meant to go to hell, there's nothing you could say to him to change his fate?
>>1281810
Look at how dishonest you are. By your definition of it, any Christian sect, even the Arians can claim what you just defined. I don't expect Scripture to be easy to read but I don't expect the Church to be left out in the blind for centuries. This is why we have Tradition to guide the reading of Scripture. Theological truth must remain the same at all times. Anything different is not the Gospel. Too bad in your case, it appears that no one can even know what is true since all sides will end up inadvitably saying "muh sola scriptura"
>>1281831
Answer the question
>>1281839
No, you have tradition.
Christians have the Holy Spirit to sort things out.
>>1281843
I have, several times. 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
All scriptures is inspired.
All.
If a thing is not inspired, like the apocrypha, it is not scripture.
>>1281811
Except, Tradition means the preaching of the Church, the method of reading Scripture and the consistency of doctrine as time goes
>>1281835
>it's rather loudly pronounced throughout the bible that men make up their own meanings, and discard God's.
Are you saying God couldn't make his Word clear to us? Are you saying he is not all-mighty? If he decided to conceal it, what is the point of divine revelation? I thought it's called "revelation" because you are supposed to understand things? I am pretty sure you are not supposed to understand Scripture until the time it talks about has come to pass. OT was about Jesus and came to pass, so we should understand it in light of the NT. You are saying we can't, but that is obviously not what God wanted. The only book that we really cannot understand yet is the Book of Revelation, because it still has not come to pass.
>but to have the bible explain itself, back itself up with more than one witness, and remain harmonized with what we do know, for sure.
This does not make any sense. If everybody is wrong and nobody understand anything, what is the point of reading the Bible anyway? How can you worship God if you don't know Him? (you said we cannot know shit, so I am just following your trail of thoughts)
>>1281844
>Christians have the Holy Spirit to sort things out.
How come the Holy Spirit sorts things out for every protestant differently? Are you implying the Holy Spirit is a liar?
>>1281849
Yes, the teachings of your apostate church, which you rely upon to your destruction.
Christians have the Holy Spirit of God living in them.
>>1281851
I'm saying we're broken.
Are you not in agreement that humanity is broken?
>>1280676
You forgot Mary-worship for the cons to Catholicism
>>1281855
He does not, He is not, and welcome to Hell for blaspheming Him.
>>1281867
To be fair, that's only 99.99999% of Catholicism, the rest being pederasty.
>>1281836
Yes, Calvin taught that if you are saved it is because Jesus chose you and not due to your own efforts; this is obviously good news for those people. However personally, I do not hold this view but still consider Calvin an Evangelical and a wise man even if we don't agree on everything.
>>1281839
Arians deny the divinity of Christ so no, they would not be included and the church is never blind because we have the Counselor to guide us. God ensured that all "tradition" necessary for salvation was included in the original canon.
>>1281773
>Our God is One.
Your God is the Father, the Son is the Father's (God) son and the Spirit is the helper.
>>1281875
Except it is only through Tradition that the Church was able to define and come up with a canon. No one used Scriptures for that. If the Holy Spirit works as you said then I expect consistency in soteriology and important matters of faith as time goes by, indicating this guidance. Unfortunately, consistency is not to be found in Protestantism.
vote
http://www.strawpoll.me/10407759/
vote
Islam>all this
None of these; become atheist, don't allow a god to cuck you
>>1281896
No it was through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the church was able to come up with a canon and there are divisions in doctrine because not everyone who claims to be speaking by the Spirit actually is, as the Roman church knows all too well.
Luckily having ironclad doctrine is not a prerequisite for redemption.
>>1281905
>We found faded images which may or may not be mary
>Therefore we need to pray to Mary as she is clearly the queen of heaven
>>1281922
Soon after that page an Ante Nicene prayer to Mary is discussed
>>1281922
we ask Mary to pray for us, we don't pray to her. Big difference.
>>1281867
I am Lutheran, but to my understanding there's a conflation of terms when one says "worship" in regards to Mary and other saints. Catholics worship God, and a better word for the rest is that they "venerate" or deeply respect, to a point of holiness, the rest. God is God, and Mary and the other saints are not God. You can "pray" to them just as you might mull over what a highly respected grandfather might think and feel after he passes and have silent conversations with him and his ideals. If a given Catholic is, indeed, "worshipping" Mary or other saints as they "worship" God, they are not understanding something important.
>>1281922
From Irenaeus as well
>>1281915
The Tradition of the Church is also Divinely Inspired and comes from God. This Tradition enables the Canon to be recognized. Divisions in doctrine existed then but one set of doctrines managed to push through as others fade away
>>1281938
Again, there is nothing here about her being the queen of heaven, mediator of graces etc. Of course she had a special role in the plan of salvation, but I see absolutely no evidence from the early church that we ought to make her the fourth member of the trinity, as you Catholics seem to do in practice if not in theory.
>>1281944
And the Tradition of the Church was codified in the canon so that ridiculous extravagances such as indulgences or papal infallibility could be exposed for the lies that they are.
>>1281938
Is quoting heretics a hobby of yours?
>>1281884
I'll try again.
God has a pure truth for humanity that broken humanity cannot tap into without His assistance, and even then it's only through the broken prism of our fallen state.
Hence let God be right, and all men wrong.
>>1281884
You say there are many "protestant" denominations.
Name one.
Bonus points if they actually use the word "protestant" in the title of their denomination.
>>1281885
Nope.
>>1281896
Whereas the evil nature of the papacy has been quite constant.
>>1281936
We pray to her to have her pray for us. We don't pray to her.
>unironically stating this as a distinction
>>1281937
They're pure pagans. They pray to this saint for this, that saint for that, and their mommy for access to God, which they don't have.
>>1281987
Since you decided to address me in that statement, I suppose I should reply that one big reason we Protestants are Protestants is because we believe EVERYONE has "access to God", so whatever train you fell from needs a fixed broken wheel.
Follow Christ, labels like Catholic and Protestant and Orthodox are tricks to seperate all of God's people.
The discussion ITT is opinion based and it's very likely there is no final answer in this thread, but only arguments.
Again, how can Christ's followers fall so divided? Why exalt your own identification of Christianity over another's?
The church is not the answer, the denomination is not the answer GOD IS THE ANSWER FOLLOW HIM.
>>1282000
You're still broken even after you're saved; the glorification does not happen until heaven.
Did you think you would be this asshole that you are forever?
>>1282005
I believe the first statement. I'm not sure what to make of the second. I think , yes, I will probably be what you might consider an "asshole" forever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIlmZKOirwU
>>1282013
Oh, no. That would be awful. He Who began a work in you promised He would finish it.
Philippians 1
For I am confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Any (hyper)calvinist here?
According to Calvinism, what is the deal if someone is Catholic or Protestant, as long as he believes in Jesus (and salvation is not dependant on you)? Sure, you may say that Mary worship is a sin, but Calvinists often emphasize that you cannot earn your way to heaven by not sinning, so how is not worshipping Mary going to make you worthy of salvation or not? What I'm trying to say is, if since God saves whom he wills as long as you believe in his son, irrespective of works and minutiae of doctrine (which we will never get exactly right anyway), what difference does it make what denomination you belong to?
>>1282025
A hard Calvinist would say that you have no choice in your own salvation; that God either chose to save you or damn you before He made the world.
It stems from a profound misunderstanding of sovereignty and God's timeless and boundless nature, and directly contradicts God's will that none perish, but that all be saved.
>>1281959
Protestants do not consider Mary a cause of Salvation. Or exhalt her to bring the new eve. Such demonstrates the Early Church having reverence for Mary beyond what Protestants can accept. Irenaeus simply developed from what he got from Justin Martyr and earlier documents such as the Odes of Solomon or slightly later, the Protoevengelium furthering evidence of Marian veneration or reverence in Christianity's infancy. Beyond that which Protestants can accept
>>1281983
if I ask you to pray for me, do you interpret that as me worshipping you?
>>1281962
It wasn't since that canon which was derived from Tradition still requires the use of Tradition itself such as the Regula Fidei to understand the contents of the Scripture that had been defined. But even then, no such thing to a closed canon ever came about until the Reformation. So too bad, sola Scriptura like Papal Infallibility are simply innovations.
>>1281981
And so is the absurd nature of Protestantism
>>1280776
Mate, I already know the Catholic propaganda. It's just probably not true.
>>1282050
Am I dead?
Am I in heaven?
How are you communicating with me if I am?
>>1282046
I'm fine with accepting this. But how do you go from exceptional reverence to making her a goddess? inb4 'shes' not a goddess' - Catholics pray to her more than Jesus in the Rosary prayer, so something is clearly wrong.
>>1281959
And yet there is a Queen of Heaven in the bible, and a cursory study of Jeremiah would reveal that she is an abomination.
And she remains an abomination, even if you re-name her "Mary".
>>1282073
Yes, it's quite absurd to think that our leader rose from the dead three days after He was executed.
And yet, here we are, so believing.
>>1282046
>the Protoevengelium furthering evidence of Marian veneration
This has been bastardized in the Roman bible.
Note that only the Roman bible, the Douay-Rheims Bible, uses "she" as the actor who crushes the head of the serpent. Their bible is FALSE.
New Living Translation
And I will cause hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel."
English Standard Version
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
New American Standard Bible
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
King James Bible
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.
International Standard Version
"I'll place hostility between you and the woman, between your offspring and her offspring. He'll strike you on the head, and you'll strike him on the heel."
New American Standard 1977
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
American Standard Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed:
she
shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for
her
heel.
>>1282084
>Am I dead?
No, and neither is Mary
>Am I in heaven?
No, but Mary is
>How are you communicating with me if I am?
By calling out for you, just like I do with Mary
>>1282017
It's very possible, if I pray God's will be done, if I pray and wish very much to be part of God's plan, you will observe what I do and think I'm "some kind of asshole". Your determination is not the end judge of what is "perfect" or even "right".
>>1282167
>Mary is omniscient
>>1281867
Catholics venerate, not worship. Learn the difference. Jesus was the perfect human, and honored his mother like the commandment says. The bible says to emulate Christ in all things, so if you were a true Christian, you would be Catholic, and you would venerate Mary
>>1282220
Why do you not worship Joseph then? Jesus honored him, according to the commandments. Why don't you venerate Joseph as much as Mary?
>>1281987
We ask saints to pray on our behalf. Do you not ask for your friends and loved ones to pray for you?
>>1282234
Joseph was his foster father, not the the vessel of his birth. Neither is worshipped. Joseph is venerated as a Saint, Mary is venerated as the Mother of God
>>1282167
Mary is dead, and in heaven.
I am alive here on earth.
You can ask me to pray for you, and I will get the message.
Mary has no clue who you are, cannot hear you, and cannot help you.
>>1282200
Correct.
And you will be neither perfect nor right until your transformation is completed in heaven.
>>1282220
Did Jesus call Mary His mother in the bible? No?
Is Mary called the "mother of God" in the bible? No?
Is Mary called the "ark of the new covenant" in the bible? No?
Then where are you getting all of these abominations?
>>1282241
Yes, you try to speak to the dead, a thing forbidden by God.
And your catholic saints are for the most part in hellfire.
No proddie here is going to answer me on how is believing you can talk telepathically with Mary going to get you to hell if you cannot earn your salvation by good works or certainty of doctrine? Sure, he might be sinning but as long as he believes in Jesus he is saved right?
>>1282255
ven·er·ate
ˈvenəˌrāt/Submit
verb
regard with great respect; revere.
"Mother Teresa is venerated as a saint"
synonyms: revere, regard highly, reverence, worship, hallow, hold sacred, exalt, vaunt, adore
See where the blasphemous words are? That's you.
>>1282285
If you telepathically try to communicate to Mary to ask God to save you, you will end up in hell.
Because you have not done what is necessary to not end up in hell.
In fact, you have not done anything at all, as nobody heard your telepathic nonsense to the queen of babylon.
There is one name under heaven by which a man must be saved.
That name is not Mary.
>>1282285
>but as long as he believes in Jesus he is saved right?
Does the devil believe Jesus exists?
>>1282286
Have fun in hell, heretic!!!
>>1282294
>Because you have not done what is necessary to not end up in hell.
So you believe you can earn your salvation? Do you believe you are righteouss before God by not talking telepathically with Mary in heaven?
>>1282299
>Does the devil believe Jesus exists?
Don't play dumb. Believing in Jesus is obviously meant believing in his teachings and following his commandments, not simply believing that he exists.
>>1282299
Can the devil be saved
>>1282273
Lol bro, you're so ridiculously blasphemous. The Church is Christ's body on Earth. You and every one of the 200000 branches of proddies are heretics against the one true church
>>1282315
I'm not an unsaved papist depending on the "Queen of Heaven" to save me.
You'll never bump into me in hell, in the dark, and on fire.
I'm pretty okay with the whore of babylon calling me a heretic.
>>1282316
You are born. You reach your age of accountability.
If you do not do what is necessary to be saved, you will not be saved.
I'm not the idiot who thinks people can follow Jesus' commandments.
>>1282320
No, there's apparently no plan of salvation for the angels. The ones who stayed, win; the ones under satan's authority lose.
>>1280700
I wouldn't be surprised if the British Royal family were truly Jews
>>1282323
All Christians are united by being filled with the Holy Spirit.
You can pray to dead women in the Church of Peter all your life, and end up in hell.
>>1282333
They pride themselves on having Merovingian lineages back to famous people, like King David, Mohammad, Vlad the Impaler, etc.
>here you go guys, take your pick
>>1282067
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon#Apostolic_Canon_.2385
>>1282330
>If you do not do what is necessary to be saved, you will not be saved.
So you believe salvation is up to you. But
>I'm not the idiot who thinks people can follow Jesus' commandments.
Okay you're not an idiot at all.
>>1282360
The only person who can follow God's commandments is God.
Knock yourself out with all of your "effort" bullshit.
You'll never be as God.
>Catholic
>ancient tradition, liturgy, music, art
Thomas Aquinas literally advocates latria toward the cross and icons. The definition of "idolatry" (idol + latria)
>Orthodox
>minus philosophy
Explain. Dostoevsky is Orthodox
>>1282374
In case I wasn't clear, by the way, there is nothing ancient about Catholic music, tradition, liturgy or art. It's Renaissance at the earliest, and most of that has been phased out
>>1282369
>You'll never be as God.
Nice strawman.
You believe that you have to "do what is necessary" to be saved. What is necessary to be saved? Following Jesus' commandments, I suppose? But you also believe no can do that. It follows that you believe no one is saved.
>>1280676
>Galileo debacle
You never really looked into it, did you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlE7xvc4LoY
>Catholic
> witch-hunting
You never really looked into it, did you?
The church mainly hunted heretics. The witch burning mostly weren't a church thing but something done by the early secular states.
>ethnic and national rather than universalistic
>"Pro"
-_-
>Protestant
>Unaesthetic as fuck
>universalistic
You never visited a confessional high church mass, did you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAox0qCB1tA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1BJ5LSjFpY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGIbZxBL8HY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gekns0HLYlw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiTHGXtmE9U
>>1280676
>Catholic
>witch-hunting
actually that was a protestant thing to do
>>1280676
>crusades
>bad
get a load of this heretic
>>1281495
>"Oh she isn't a false deity. She is only praised not prayed to".
Unless you wear that green and brown scapulars. Then she is a Co-Redemptrix and pulls you out of hell a week after you die even if you do not have faith in the former case...
(Nice meme though, /b/rother.)
>>1281708
>>1281695
Nah.
>>1280676
>Has to accept refugees, Pope Francis, Vatican II,
All fixed with Sedevacantism
> papal infalibility, indulgences, crusades,
>bad
>witch-hunting, Galileo debacle,
>memes
> can't fap
>being an unrepentant sinner
>>1280771
Fix that image, Catholicism is the largest denom in burger
>>1282418
>muh Nazi Pope responsible for the Holocaust is the last real pope.
>>1282415
Can't even read yours.
>>1282385
What's wrong with executing witches?
>>1282415
>Judaism
>Ok tier
Dropped into the trash inside a volcano.
>>1282379
It's not a straw man.
It's the gospel of the devil, your father.
And, no, again, following Jesus' commandments is not only not salvation, it's not possible.
See, Jesus is God.
And Jesus gave Man 613 commandments.
And nobody has ever followed them, but for Jesus.
>>1280876
Here's another link friendo.
https://thecatholicgeeks.wordpress.com/2015/09/23/dear-media-stop-lying-about-the-pope/
>>1281708
>>1282415
>lutheran heretic likes heathens and kike christkillers
Why am i not surprised
>>1281807
What is "scripture" in a time before the NT canon was formed (which it was by the church)?
As well: What is inspiration. If my GFs beauty INSPIRES me to write poetry about her, that doesn't make it her word.
As well that verse as well can be translated that all scripture WHICH is inspired is good to be taught, not that all scripture is inspired.
>>1282436
Heretic
>>1282438
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjmveYw0tE
>>1282439
>Placing protestantism alongside agnosticism and gnosticism
Tell us how you really feel.
>>1282427
>>1281871
N.O.P.E.
>>1280676
>Protestant
>Pro-Israel/Universalist
Lol. You literally don't have a clue what you're talking about do you?
>>1282453
>Traditional Catholic thought did not consider Zionism in any form[3] and Christian advocacy of the restoration of the Jews arose following the Protestant Reformation
Do you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
>>1282442
The entire OT.
>>1282436
>get called out on the his inconsistent and contradictory beliefs
>throws a tantrum calling people who disagree with him sons of the devil
Holier than thou: the post.
>>1282450
As soon as I learn German, I'll get back to you on that chart.
>>1282439
>kike christkillers
Lumen gentium, which is a DOGMATIC FOUNDATION of YOUR church likes the "kike christkillers" and muslims a lot as well.
Nostra Aetate and the current catechism as well ...
Just saying.
>>1282475
Vatican 2 is heresy
The catholic church does not like christkillers and never has.
>>1282470
Salvation is not following God's commandments.
If it were, Jesus would not have come to earth to die.
People following commandments: heaven.
Others: hell.
There are only two spiritual fathers; you are either For Jesus, or Against Jesus.
And the spiritual father of Against Jesus is the devil, and his gospel he gave to Eve in the Garden of Eden: Know good and evil, and be like God.
>>1282478
All papacy is heresy.
>>1282478
>The catholic church does not like christkillers and never has.
Hence the Holocaust.
>>1282485
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KV6PXSODgE
Enjoy hell.
>>1282471
It is a chart of the German state police. (BKA) It shows that of all society groups priests rape the least. Less then teachers of public schools, sport instructors, neigbors, relatives, and even the own parents which btw. of all groups are the most often offender together with uncles and aunts.
Numbers in US are comparable from what I remembr.
>>1282490
>m-muh six trillion
>>1282478
>Vatican 2 is heresy
-_-
>"Protestants are heretics cause they disregard dogmatics they dislike".
>"Lumen Gentium, a dogmatic foundation of the church, is heresy cause I do not like it".
How does it feel to be a closet confessional lutheran in denial bro?
>>1282002
>Follow Christ, labels like Catholic and Protestant and Orthodox are tricks to seperate all of God's people.
Non-denominationalism, if anything, is the trick you're talking about. Without doctrine, Christianity would have died out a long time ago. Churches and denominations die off because they have no central dogma or belief. Please stop saying shit like you're on christianforums.com and think for a bit.
>>1282509
IT IS HERESY BECAUSE IT CONTRADICTS THE INFALLIBLE TRUTH OF THE CHURCH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWsgxCVYtAI&index=13&list=PLGVSKByrYzstnb7NVcocWBI6qrV2me254
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHVXurgxtR8&index=9&list=PLGVSKByrYzstnb7NVcocWBI6qrV2me254
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWo-7uVR8yI&index=6&list=PLGVSKByrYzstnb7NVcocWBI6qrV2me254
>>1282475
confirmed for never having read neither Lumen Gentium nor Nostra Aetate
>>1282534
Enjoy hell, heretic.
>>1282540
lmao, pot calling the kettle black. You are only slightly better than protestants.
>>1282495
Keep hoping Peter is waiting at "the" pearly gates for you.
kek
>>1282498
Sweet. I don't have to learn German. It's bullshit.
>>1282499
68,000,000+ murdered Christians and Jews by popery.
Do you think God forgets?
>>1282522
The Whore of Babylon being infallible.
kek
>>1282431
>>1282434
>Can't even read yours.
Everything has to be explained to you?
>>1282522
>The pope is infalliable.
>Unless he dogmatically says something I dislike. Then he is a heretic who goes against tradition.
Ok, closet Potesti-bro ...
:3
>>1282085
Too bad these acts of devotion already shows interest in Mary and the high reverence for her. The oldest known Marian prayer is dated to 250AD. This is hardly any novelty when one considers the prevalence of similar devotion to the departed which Johnson, a Lutheran points out >>1281495
>>1282528
>confirmed for never having read neither Lumen Gentium nor Nostra Aetate
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved"
- Lumen Gentium 3, 16.
"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting."
- Nosta Aetate 3.
(And 4 goes on about how the Jews are cool as well).
>>1282589
Fonts have to be legible? Symbols have to be discernible?
Yes.
>>1282621
confirmed for not knowing how to read
>>1282514
You still have doctrine without denomination.
>>1282603
Hmmmm, the people in Egypt who prayed to their dead prayed to their dead when they "converted".
Hmmmm, such a mystery.
Daily Reminder that all Marian apparitions are demonic.
>>1282633
>daily Reminder that all Marian apparitions are demonic.
Daily reminder that posts on 4chan are not completely credible sources
>>1280676
Catholic
>witch-hunting
It was the protestant
>Galileo debacle
Galileo was a catholic, and it was a battle between ptolemean cosmology versus pythagorean cosmology, also the sun isn't the center of the universe so galileo was wrong.
Orthodox
>minus philosophy
Never heard of John Damascene or Gregory Palamas ?
Protestant
>no intermediary before God
Bible + Christ
>retarded pro-Israel/Zionism,
Only in america
>Protestant nations usually more developed than Catho and Ortho ones
Protestantism especially (Pentecostalism and Evangelism) is THE third world religion.
>>1282633
Not just Egypt. It's the norm of the Early Christians
>>1282648
"In an unexpected twist of globalization, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and other pilgrims regularly
worship at famous Roman Catholic shrines to the Virgin Mary such as Lourdes in France and Fatima in Portugal. They drink the holy water, light votive candles and pray fervently to the Madonna for help with life's hardships. Many venerate her like one of their own goddesses, a view that would be a heresy if a Catholic theologian tried to defend it.
"Rather than turned away, the newcomers are
free to join the crowds from Ireland, Italy, Spain, and other traditionally Catholic countries who flock to Europe's most popular shrines."
>>1282681
Yes, people are a mess. Eschew their traditions.
Stick with God's word.
>>1282682
Everyone else is reaching out to the heavens. The church isn't the only place to find saints, Mary is a saint and a devotee contemplates and prays on a ain't so life for understanding and insight.
Even a Christian doesn't worship Marymount they might worship their brand of cigarettes or a person in their life, non religious people and all religious people do this. We idolize people, saints, objects. No one else is without stain.
So if people look for God in Mary, why call it demonic? Because someone labels it heresy? Those are only words. They called Jesus a heretic. Only words.
>>1282684
You mean the word which ironically arises from Tradition?
>>1281781
Look at the part where Tradition is the context to interpret Scripture
>>1282346
See pic
>>1282346
Are the two epistles of Clement part of your Scripture?
>>1282707
There's a demon who appears as Mary who thinks you're an idiot.
I agree with it.
>>1282712
No, God's word.
No, God's word speaks for itself.
No.
>>1282728
Is Paul wrong?
>>1282731
Apparently, part of that word is Tradition which one needs to understand the written part of it.
How ironic that history and ALL the Church Fathers prove you wrong again, again and again.
The best part is that I simply just defer to scholarly sources and not apologetical sources to prove my point.
I'm the only one ITT who used academic sources to prove my point.
>>1282728
Just ask for understanding
>>1282733
More about Paul from James DG Dunn
>>1282772
whoops
>>1280676
>Cons:
>Has to accept refugees, Vatican II
>crusades, witch-hunting, Galileo debacle
Stop these meme
>>1282839
>Vatican II
Isn't a meme unless you are a sedefag, which means basically that you are a protestant heretic who should be burned at the stake.
>>1282733
No, not at all. The Corinthians were having huge meals for communion but they were not allowing enough time for the people outside the area to get there. By the time those poor folks got there, the ones early to the feast were stuffed and drunk, leaving nothing for the latecomers.
Paul is not an Eat God Be God person.
Jesus changed the Passover.
If you keep the Old Passover after Jesus changed it, you eat and drink damnation to yourself (you remain under the Old Covenant, and are not a part of the New).
>>1282737
Any traditions that matter were written down in the scriptures.
That's how that works.
>>1280996
>Besides, in the Council of Florence the orthodox Church literally accepted papal supremacy, before being forced to change their mind by people
Except it didn't happen that way.
Yes, the bishops signed, but it was in their own personal as legates. It still needed to be ratified by the Orthodox Synods to be effective and legally binding.
But the bishops and other clergy(and their flocks) that stayed back home were a wee bit in disagreement with that decision, so said council decisions were not ratified, union didn't actually happen from a canonical POV, and we are still separated 6 centuries later.
So next time someone wants to mend the schism, please make sure the bishop are granted authority from back home BEFORE going to the council.
Source:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06111a.htm
>>1282839
Ah yes, FSSPX. All the nice parts about old school latin rite, without the canonical bullshit SSPX has.
>>1283074
>muh paganism, best paganism
>>1283065
Except when his view of the Eucharist involves the very re-presentation of the Death of Christ himself.
Dunn also notes how the Eucharistic elements are in fact to Paul, means of grace of the effects of them.
Wait a minute, that kinda contradicts Protestant Eucharistic theology where the bread and wine remain as that!
Dunn covers the issue with the Corinths so what you said isn't a statement of Paul's Eucharistic theology nor have any bearing on whatever point you are trying to bring across.
The point I make is that Paul sees the Eucharist as Realist where it re-presents the death of Christ, gives a foretaste of the new creation and that the elements used are the effects/means of grace.
>>1280676
Why not be Muslim, it has all of the pros of all three minus the church fathers, Aquinas and a liturgy without any of the cons except for refugees and no masturbation.
By the way I would think the Orthodox are against masturbation as well as many Protestants. Although if you're Prostestant you can basically do whatever you want and call yourself a Christian.
>>1283066
Except when the very context of how the first Christians read Scriptures, entails authoritative interpretation since Scriptures are read collectively as a group, not in the way of Sola Scriptura as Mcgowan points out in Ancient Christian Worship. The reading of Scriptures is akin to that of a philosophical discussion between student and teacher. Such a situation of course entails authoritative interpretation which Mcgowan also concludes regarding this issue.
And that authoritative interpretation takes the form as the regula fidei and the method of reading the written word and as time goes by, the councils and consensus of the Church Fathers.
That isn't Sola Scriptura since Sola Scriptura does not rest or allow any utilization of any mechanism to read Scripture since it's as clear as day to those enlightened with the Holy Spirit.
>>1283082
Paul is not Eat God, Be God.
Many people in one body eating the same bread.
Many people in one body drinking the same wine.
In remembrance of what Jesus did; how His body was literally broken for us; how His blood was literally shed for us.
And our symbolic remembrance of that event, as the body of Christ.
Not Eat God, Be God, no. Never.
Doing something symbolically to represent something real is not acting in a literal manner in any sense of the word literal.
Jesus offered His disciples bread, not flesh.
Jesus offered His disciples wine, not blood.
Jesus said partake in these, in remembrance of Him.
Note that AFTER Jesus said "this is my body, broken for you" He gave them BREAD.
And AFTER Jesus said "this is my blood, spilled for you" He gave them WINE.
The Whore of Babylon is indeed drunken on the blood of prophets and saints, but it is not through her Eucharist abominations; it is through the sword.
>>1283120
Anyone enlightened with the Holy Spirit leaves such papist nonsense for the trash bin of history, to be purged with fire.
>>1283125
John 13
Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him.
Judas partook of the real Last Supper, was possessed by satan, committed suicide and ended up in hell.
>>1283128
Can you tell me why the second century apologist, Justin Martyr who defended Christianity says this,
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. (1st apology, chapter 66)
>>1283125
But Paul does take a realist view like it or not. Dunn, a Protestant himself agrees. But let's hear from the Anchor Bible Dictionary on the subject
>>1283125
a. 1 Cor 11:17–34.
From a literary standpoint the oldest account of the institution of the Lord‘s
Supper is found in 1 Cor 11:23–26. Paul reports the account essentially in the form in which he had
learned to know it in Antioch in the 40‘s and as he had passed it on to the Corinthians when he established
the church there. The traditional words ―receive‖ and ―deliver‖ (paralambanein and paradidonai) in v 23a
are well known in the scholarly language of Rabbinism (cf. Midr. Qoh. 12:11) and of Hellenism (Diod.
5.2,3). They clearly indicate that the vv 23b–25 are a fragment of tradition (possibly with some Pauline
touches). ―From the kyrios‖ points to the earthly Jesus as the source of this catena of traditional elements.
At the same time he is seen as the present exalted Lord who gives the sacrament its permanent validity.
The rather scanty reference to the historic event of the passion in v 23b (―on the night when he was
betrayed‖) sets the words of Institution off from the timeless, cyclic myths and formulae of the Mysteries.
The traditional text lays out another aspect of the meal in which the breaking of the bread at the
beginning of the meal and the blessing of the cup at the end (cf. 11:25a ―in the same way also the cup,
after supper‖) surround the main meal. The words ―for you,‖ spoken at the breaking of the bread, are
addressed to the participants of the Lord‘s Supper; they draw them into participation of the salvatory self sacrifice
of Jesus. The contents of the cup in v 25b are not directly identified as the blood. Rather, in the
foreground stands the sealing of the eschatological new covenant in the death on the cross. Besides its
vertical dimension (the God of the covenant creating a new people), this covenant has a horizontal aspect:
the celebrants are brought together into covenant community.
Anchor Bible Dictionary-Lord's Supper, pg 5363
>>1283125
Cont>>1283158
“Appropriately there may have been initially the dominant conviction that the exalted Lord was present as participant and host at the celebration of the meal in his church. This personal presence must be viewed as the sustaining basis for every form of the presence of the Lord in the sacrament. Besides that, the Lord‘s Supper was interpreted eschatologically above all in times of acute anticipation, as proleptic presence of the imminent end of the age which, in keeping with apocalyptic expectation, was to culminate in a festal meal. Through the deliberate step back to Jesus‘ Last Supper, and then, via the Easter event, an event that made the Supper possible, there is added another essential element: the commemoration of the death of Jesus on the cross in its saving power. This aspect of the presence of the death of Jesus was utilized above all by Paul within the framework of his theologia crucis.
All these forms of presence are naturally quite real. However, people have gotten into the habit of tying the real presence of the body and blood of Christ to the elements of the supper, i.e., the bread and wine. The words of interpretation in the account of the Institution are intended for this purpose. Within the NT such an understanding of the words of interpretation are to be found in John 6:52–58, possibly also in 1 Cor 10:16–22, certainly in Corinthians, and finally in the account of the Institution itself, if one reads it as cult-aetiology in the form in which Mark and Matthew give it. The significance of this model of interpretation for the ancient and medieval church‘s teaching on the eucharist is obvious. There is reason to suspect unmistakably the presence of a strong influence of Hellenistic thinking and Hellenistic cultpiety, both in the NT and in early Christian tradition.”-ibid, pg 5374
>>1283152
Sure.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
2 Peter
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
>>1283162
I agree, we see those things the Scriptures talk about manifest themselves in the form of all the heresies that pop out and Protestantism.
>>1283155
Your point: A realist would therefore argue that when they receive the bread and wine of the Eucharist they are also receiving the nature of Christ in or with the signs of bread and wine
Paul:
Romans 10
...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Yeah, what you say Paul believes does not line up with what Paul believes.
>>1283171
>>1283158
Okay, so this is rather incoherent babbling, but at least it does not say the participant is a cannibal and a vampire.
You know the Jews believed that if you and I ate half of the same loaf of bread that it would bond us together, yes? That the bread would make part of your body be like part of my body?
>>1283171
By contrast, many recent studies of the Greek word pistis have concluded that its primary and most common meaning was faithfulness, meaning firm commitment in an interpersonal relationship.[14][15][16][17] As such, the word could be almost synonymous with "obedience" when the people in the relationship held different status levels (e.g. a slave being faithful to his master). Far from being equivalent to "lack of human effort", the word seems to imply and require human effort. The interpretation of Paul's writings that we need to "faithfully" obey God's commands is quite different from one which sees him saying that we need to have "faith" that he will do everything for us. This is also argued to explain why James was adamant that "faith without works is dead" and that "a man is saved by works, and not by faith alone", while also saying that to merely believe places one on the same level as the demons (see James 2). The "new" perspective argues that James was concerned with those who were trying to reduce faith to an intellectual subscription without any intent to follow God or Jesus, and that Paul always intended "faith" to mean a full submission to God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
>>1283167
Nope. Pure anti-tradition warnings from the gospel. Warnings about men twisting the things of God for their own enrichment. Warnings about men preaching a different gospel (Eat God, Be God).
Warnings against people like you.
>>1283176
Ephesians 2
Right after how we were saved.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
>>1283179
You aren't even at a place where you realized Paul and James were in conflict.
pistis
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
>>1283178
It also contradicts your view of the Eucharist. The same thing Dunn points out is echoed here from the Anchor Bible Dictionary where,
a)The meal is a foretaste of the new Creation
b)The meal serves as means to participate in Jesus' self sacrifice
These two are not included in the memorialist view of the Eucharist. But there's more which the Anchor Bible dictionary notes as pointed out here>>1283160 which shows us that the words of institution by Christ at the Last Supper is intended to be taken realistically, meaning to say that the Biblical view, including Paul's entails a Realist view.
>>1283183
Like the Protestants do to the point they can't even agree with each other.
What a fucking retard
>>1283185
That doesn't even say Sola Fide. It entails one walking with God in the act of doing works in Grace which would be prepared beforehand.
>>1283191
Paul and James aren't in conflict when they both agree on the necessity of works.
Paul follows the view where one must perform works or submit to be covered by the work of Christ. The obedience of Abraham used as an example of faith by Paul exemplifies this.
>>1283216
New creations are the people taking the communion.
The meal is taken to remember Jesus' self-sacrifice.
Look, I know you think you are smart, but the things of God are just not for you.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
>>1283236
False. The new creation is to Paul the end of age which accumulates with a festive meal. So if any, the Eucharist to Paul is somehow transcendent of time to give its participants the foretaste of it, alongside re-presenting the death of Christ.
Too bad if you can't face the truth loser.
>>1283160
More from the Anchor Bible Dictionary on the subject,
>Without yet entering into the question of literary genre, two reflections should be made about the Last Supper. It is questionable whether ―parabolic‖ adequately explains Jesus‘ words and actions. Rather, Jesus performs an efficacious sign, a prophetic symbolic act. As Ezekiel (5:1–5) had identified his hair with Jerusalem, so Jesus has identified himself with the bread and wine (Beck 1970: 192–97). However, ―symbolic‖ is not to be opposed to ―real‖; on the contrary, the symbolic is the depth dimension of the real (Léon-Dufour 1987: 10, 162–65).-pg 5183
>During the course of the meal, Jesus, in prophetic manner, identified himself with both the bread and the wine in the cup. At a meal people are fed, and Jesus did identify himself in some way with this nourishment.-pg 5189
>>1283053
>says the protestant heretic
>>1282581
>>1282583
>>1282583
The whole of Babylon is Jerusalem
>>1282589
Again, >satanic talmudism >ok.
The Talmud says that the virgin Mary is an adulterous whore and Jesus a bastard child of Mary with a Roman soldier. It says furthermore that Jesus is currently in hell burning in a pool of boiling excrement and semen.
Protestants are ok with this.
>>1280676
Pro-Israel is an American thing, not a protestant thing, and there's nothing wrong with the crusades as a concept, execution might have needed some work though.
Way I see it is, Catholic is better in all regards *except* pelvic issues. But about 200 years of softening on sexual norms in the West should be evidene that, while things can be taken too far, masturbation and pre-marital sex are not the end of your soul.
Unfortunately, if you believe that, literally every theological plank of Catholicism that you hold is irrelevant. You're done. Good bye.
That sort of micromanaging totalitarianism is too much for me to handle, so I'm in the Anglican Church. It may ordain women and marry gays, but at least they don't kick me out for relaxing and enjoying my body now and again.
