Why do protestants believe that masturbation is not a sin?
The reason Americans are circumcized is because some protestant nutjob thought it would prevent masturbation
>>1271269
>implying onan's sin was spilling his seed in and of itself and not disobedience to god and not providing offspring(thus guaranteeing his inheritance)
>>1271379
isn't jerking off a selfish non-reproductive act? How can God approve of us doing something just for the sake of earthly, flesh pleasure?
>>1271299
Isn't it because it was considered more hygenic in the past? And also a result of jewish influence on american culture?
>Define sin
>>1271403
sin = disobedience to God
>>1271399
You mean earthly pleasure like shitposting on an Annamese DOS help netpage? I dunno.
>>1271413
did you just try to answer my question by asking me another question?
I would assume that 4chan leads very easily to sin, but if done in moderation and with precaution, is not a sin in and out of itself. It is just a way to communicate anonimously after all
>>1271403
holding an ultra-leftist position on trade-unions or the national-question according to Lenin
>>1271403
In Hebrew, Greek and Latin: literally "missing the mark"
In English, the word "sin" comes from "to be guilty of crime"
>>1271269
I don't know how anyone can believe it's a sin with fucking sexy ass paintings like that circulating.
>>1271401
No. It was popularized in America because Kellogg thought it'd stop kids from jerking off. He also tried to push for girls to have their clits removed, but that never caught on.
>>1271417
Yes. Is there a problem officer?
I asked why you think Dog the Sodom hunter will send me to hell for spanking the monkey when you're in Grand Central Degeneracy Station still shitposting.
You claim that you are here and take this shit in through moderation. Stop lying to yourself.
>>1271516
>Grand Central Degeneracy Station
this is a blue board. There is no degeneracy here
>You claim that you are here and take this shit in through moderation. Stop lying to yourself.
I don't take any shit. I was simply speaking on general terms. Personally, I take no shit whatsoever.
You seem to assume that because you are a degenerate, everybody is. That is not the case.
>>1271269
[citation needed]
So
IF someone thinks masturbation is a sin
THEN they are not Protestant.
That is just so wonderful.
AND as always, thank you for shitposting here on 4chan.
>>1271535
>This is a blue board so there's nothing degenerate
O I am laffin.
You don't have to be a degenerate to witness degeneracy
>>1271484
Male suffering and female benefits in action.
Everyone knows that using the mouths of altar boys does not count as masturbation and therefore not sinful.
>>1271401
Actually protestants are extremely against following the Jewish law as they consider it an affront to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice. Also, the whole hygienic bit is only if you don't ever wash your dick. The American practice of circumcision is pretty ironic.
>>1271399
like smelling a rose? eating chocolate?
99% of the things we strive do are of no actual practical value outside of the "selfish pleasure" it gives us.
This is why Christianity needs to die already, it equates pleasure with sin. It hurts no one to masturbate, but hurts billions to say it's sinful. Go fuck yourself.
>>1271410
billions of people have claimed to know the will of god, and billions of contrary accounts have been given.
Given basic common sense and look at these accounts, you're a complete imbecile to think its will, if it even exists, is knowable.
>>1274239
>like smelling a rose? eating chocolate?
No, like smelling thinner and eating shrooms
Pleasure isn't wrong , what's wrong is disordered pleasure
>>1274239
>like smelling a rose?
How many people do that everyday, several times a day while going on websites where they spend at least 30 minutes a day watching videos of other people smelling roses?
>eating chocolate
if you eat 10 bars of chocolate a day, then yes, it is a sin, otherwise it isn't.
>99% of the things we strive do are of no actual practical value outside of the "selfish pleasure" it gives us.
Selfishness in itself is already a sin. The point is that masturbation in and out of itself is something wicked. A sterile act that goes against the purpose of sexual lust, which is procreation and bonding, not endorphine addiction and temorary remedy to loneliness.
>, it equates pleasure with sin
It equates twisted pleasure to sin. There is no sin in having sex with your wife.
Ask yourself this: can you stop masturbating? Can you now decide to never do it again? If the answer is no, you have an addiction.
>>1274245
>there is more than one religion so all religions are wrong
fallacy
>>1274282
I don't remember jesus saying anything against shrooms
>>1271440
>>1271440
I know what you mean, senpai.
>>1271403
The most Simplistic one I heard while studying theology was a selfish act.
>>1271269
>Jesus and the priest checking dat ass
Damn.
If masturbation is a sin AND Jesus didn't sin THEN did Jesus have wet dreams?
>>1274336
>at least 30 minutes a day
a couple hours tbqh
>>1271484
FUCK YOU KELLOGG
GODDDAMMIT HE IS THE REASON BEHIND THIS
FUCK FUCK FUCK
NOW I HAVE SOMEONE TO DIRECT MY RAGE TOWARDS EVEN IF IT ISN'T THE FULL STORY
>>1271269 >>1278978 Let me rephrase this: IF Protestants think that masturbation is not a sin THEN do Protestants believe that Jesus masturbated?
>>1278978
Catholic here.
You don't need to have wet dreams to ejaculate in your sleep once in a while. It is a biological need due to sperm dying and needing replacement, it is not triggered by psychology. You get wet dreams because you have concupiscence and it is in your nature to sin. Jesus didn't have that so he didn't have wet dreams either.
>>1280469
>You get wet dreams because you have concupiscence and it is in your nature to sin.
[citation needed]
>>1271269
The correct answer is that we are sinful beings and everything we do, say, or indeed think is sin. The point does not become identifying sin, pointing to specific sin, but the realization and confession to a higher power you are not righteous, you are not perfect, you make mistakes.
I know there are plenty of people who point to behaviors and say "that's a sin", but Christians are one thing first, and that is "people". People screw up, people make mistakes. The one unifying ideal behind it all is Jesus' message, and that is always the most important thing to hold on to and believe. The rest is interpretation.
Romans 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16
ruin and misery mark their ways,
17
and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
>>1271399
>earthly, flesh pleasure
What, like food?
>>1281738
People become addicted to the brain chemicals that are produced when they eat. Of course one must eat, but we're all guilty, every one, of eating for gratuitous pleasure.
>>1281742
And that's just it. We can't "not sin". The point is not to endeavor to stop sinning, because we can't possibly do it. The "point" is to realize we're all, to some measure, self serving, and be humble to God for our sinning nature.
Does this give license then to sin uncontrollably? That's the common argument against Luther's words in the Reformation. The obvious answer is, when you realize you're doing it to be hurtful or self serving above the interests of others, consider how you're going to be genuine with God when you confess. If I go about just doing everything bad, how can I be honest with myself and honest with God I'm sorry for it? I can't. God sees this in our hearts, too. And yeh, we're even going to push that envelope sometimes. God's grace is mighty, Jesus' sacrifice was perfect. Love yourself and others and take care of each other.
Why do christards of any stripe think the rest of us care about their idiotic internal squabbles?
>>1281768
You can't exist and not sin.
I say "you" because you're not Jesus.
>>1281759
God gave me two hands and a weiner. Im going to stroke it like god intended.
>>1281775
If you don't care about it, why are you typing here? I don't care about purple sparkly unicorn pegasus creatures, so I don't jump in threads to discuss them.
It must affect you somehow to chime in.
>>1281778
k. I hope you're very happy with that? Not sure how it's a reply to what I said.
>>1271535
I love sniffing cocaine off muscular black tranny's silicone tits while fisting a dog and shitting on the Bible
And so, you're disingenuous illusion is shattered
>>1281776
this seems like complete damage control. The point is not to be perfect, but to avoid sin.
Do you masturbate? Yes. Do you keep on doing it even though you know it is a mortal sin? You are a reprobate. Quite simple, really.
>>1281790
and? You don't do any of that on /his/, so I am not a witness to your degeneracy
>>1281718 No!!!
>The correct answer is that we are sinful beings and everything we do, say, or indeed think is sin.
If a woman gives birth, is the act of giving birth a sin? I should hope not. If the child takes a breath, is breathing a sin?
>>1281790
There are people sicker than this who God has forgiven in his grace because he realizes they just can't do any better, they are broken. You think it's funny to put yourself in the bin with people who just can't do better, I still think you're a human being and would treat you, even with dog poo hands, as a human.
>>1281795
I understand it "seems like damage control", just as I understand it seems like justification "to sin". You're missing the point. We sin, anyway.
>>1281808
Yes, we're all born with the curse of original sin. You can look at it literally, you can look at it as a psychological self-serving nature to please ourselves, work to put ourselves in a non-suffering state. Indeed, every person born "has this", with greater or lesser capacity to learn to make self more comfortable.
Look, before we go further, and I know Wikipedia is not the end-all, be-all, not a great reference always, but I'd like you to consider this, please.
This is what Lutherans believe about sin.
"The key doctrine, or material principle, of Lutheranism is the doctrine of justification. Lutherans believe that humans are saved from their sins by God's grace alone (Sola Gratia), through faith alone (Sola Fide), on the basis of Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura). Orthodox Lutheran theology holds that God made the world, including humanity, perfect, holy and sinless. However, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, trusting in their own strength, knowledge, and wisdom.[75][76] Consequently, people are saddled with original sin, born sinful and unable to avoid committing sinful acts.[77] For Lutherans, original sin is the "chief sin, a root and fountainhead of all actual sins."[78]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism
You sin anyway. You can't help but sin. You're saddled by sin in everything you do. Your to not point to sin and say "that is sin" but to realize you do sin and show humility to God and be repentant. That is what we believe. There's not really 2 ways about it.
>>1271269
>Why do protestants believe that masturbation is not a sin?
Don't protestants believe masturbation is a sin?
It means viewing porn, friends, all that sort of things.
(>>1281910 continued)
>>1281845
>You sin anyway.
But it is like we use this to be so denigrate to live on this conscious/ non-conscious border.
Because something is not working out.
So, take this text. It should cover it in any way thinkable.
(I don't mean anything sticking to me by mentioning it)
1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything.
------------------------
So basically how can anything mentioned in 9-10 be considered forbidden?
>>1271269
Why are people so caught up on what is a sin, and what is not a sin, when all sin was forgiven at the cross before any of us were born?
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
>>1281845
Correct. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners.
>>1274336
>if you eat 10 bars of chocolate a day, then yes, it is a sin, otherwise it isn't
so as long as I masturbate in moderation it's ok? not everyone that masturbates has a porn addiction fampai
>>1282034
You can spend your life caught in a vicious cycle of sin-repent-confess-penance if you want.
It's what the devil wants for you.
Me, I'll enjoy being saved, and walk with my God.
>>1282035
You're sinning against your own body.
How much do you want to hurt yourself?
>>1282024
>we are sinners.
But this is so cliche and leading nowhere.
It is like if a constant part somewhere it is more some sort of dynamic thing. Or it has more to do with some sort of dynamics that should be in life then series of mistakes. And is more of an unconscious thing.
Still there can be series of mistakes. They would rather be conscious then not. And can even be very big. This must be what can get to hell. Because it has clear elements of double crossing matters.
>>1282042
I'm not being hurt at all, plus it stops me from having wet dreams. I prefer not to wake up with my underwear slimed. it only takes up a few minutes out of my day
>>1282035
>porn addiction
>>if you
At this moment you can't have a porn addiction because the whole subject has a problem. Or it is dangerous to place any guilt or motivation to change it on self.
It is a same kind of thing as eating anyway.
Unless you would Have to do it very half hour to an hour, clearly disturbing daily life it is in no way an addiction.
>>1282042
How would you say that what is mentioned in verse 9-10 is basically forbidden?
>>1282012
>So basically how can anything mentioned in 9-10 be considered forbidden?
Because Jesus didn't come to do away with covenant, but to make a new one. The old rules still exist, the 613 mitzvot and God loves obedience. But to do it correctly you must do it all, and no one even can do it all, primarily for the reason there's no more temple to do the appropriate temple things since 70ad.
Maybe it comes down to this. If every thing you do it solely for your meal ticket in heaven, you're probably doing it wrong, you're doing it for yourself and your future security in heaven. If that self-centered line of thinking is the best you can do by God, performing works here to assure your heavenly position, I'm sure he realizes this and His grace is big enough even for you.
We "should" be doing what we consider right. How can we, in a pre-meditated fashion, intentionally break rules then be genuine with ourselves and genuine with God when we confess and say sorry? We can't. We're sinful beings. Even our intent to do right is saddled by that original sin. We're to realize we sin and do the best we can to be honest with ourselves and honest to God, knowing we will always fall short. It does not mean "do whatever the heck you want", although honestly, we're all doing whatever the heck we want anyway, we should try to show a little obedience and the key to doing that is in the Word.
>>1282099
continued...
The point of all of this is not to make you loathe yourself. God wants us to be happy and live our lives in this place He created for us. He doesn't want us to fight with each other, either, over things which should be between the individual and God. Your sins are not my business, unless it somehow affects me adversely, and I might quite likely sin against you in return. This is true in the reverse, I vs you. This is not the point of salvation. Jesus is the point of salvation.
>>1274282
How exactly is masturbation comparable to either of those?
>>1282099
AAAAAHHHHH I'm so very shocked. The whole church, catholic, protestant, evangelical they are all so very much mistaken.
I mean look at this church. It must be the best functioning church in the world. Still they are all about masturbation and porn if it comes up.
http://emmanuel.tv/
>>1282147
Not sure how this is a reply. Everyone does it wrong. Pointing to one and saying they do it wrong is like pissing in an ocean. People do the best they can, from what they understand.
>>1282054
Yes. There is. Your heart endlessly pumps wickedness throughout your entire body. Without your volition, or permission, or control.
All sin begins in the heart, and your heart is working against you. Unconsciously.
Sin is not a mistake; it's your failure to be like God.
>>1282066
You are hurting yourself. Eventually you will see that, and hopefully stop.
All sin is like that. Front loaded pleasure, lingering guilt, pain and shame.
>>1281910
>>1282012
>>1282034
>>1282054
>>1282072
>>1282097
>>1282147
>>1282194
All (Me)
>>1282223
Saying that anything mentioned in verse 9 and 10 is basically forbidden, is the same as saying that the writer undoes the great commandment and with that the fulfilling of the law.
True or not?
Listen, double crossing this or other important matters is a reason for going to hell. Saying this is ridiculously unfriendly. In how it sounds. I'm not. But Christianity as a whole has a mistake.
To me this looked like trying to double cross the discussion by sowing confusion. >>1282099
>>1282308
Masturbating has actually been proven to improve your health.
>>1282318
Maybe you're confusing "things I should and should not do", and "what I might do to not attain salvation". Real Protestants do not believe there's a specific act you will perform which will somehow undo Jesus' sacrifice and God's perfect grace. Now, after this there's a significant branch in understanding, because some believe your name is in a book before you were born, some interpret you much consciously confirm and adhere a set of born again actions. Are you trying to get to the bottom of whether I subscribe to monergism or synergism? I'd argue monergism, because an imperfect, sinful being cannot possibly come to some conclusion on his own he's suddenly saved because he said so. Jesus says so.
Is this what you're worried about, your acts here, whether you will eventually go to heaven? God makes works for us to perform. Your acts, the acts of a sinful being, can't be perfect enough ever to assure your place. God decided that.
>>1282319
As has drinking one glass of wine on occasion.
So, drink 10 gallons a day?
>>1282356
Please stop using the word protestants and start using the word Christians. Thank you.
>>1282356
continued
If it were truly what we do that mandates our position in heaven, there'd have been no reason to send Jesus. You didn't, and you don't ever, save yourself, but you come to the point of realizing that's been done for you. IF you don't want it, I can't imagine that, but that's on you, I guess, between you and God. I actually have trouble believing a person can even choose to put himself in separation from God, because we can't truly, fully grasp the ramifications of such a decision to make an educated choice, the person must be sick and broken, and God must know this. However , we're told some are not elect , and I'm not about to play around, acting judge, what exactly that means in God's will, because I'm not God.
>>1282372
I'm pretty sure no-one in this thread is arguing that EXCESSIVE masturbation isn't a bad thing. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.
>>1282375
I believe people can be christians without being of the protestant denomination. The thread is specifically asking what protestants understand in dogma.
I believe all catholics and other orthodox, all protestants, and indeed any other "whatever" which holds Jesus as Christ is a christian, hence "christian". Not all christians have the specific view of protestants, not all christians you might believe to be protestants are protestants.
I masturbate 15 to 20 times a day. AMA
>>1282318(Me)
>>1282356
I think it is very interesting to discuss this with you. But I'm a little afraid you could use the power of still partaking or not. As far as I know this is a thing.
I'm interested in changing the whole of christianity. This sounds megaloman. But I'm just open to it and 2. what kinds of mistakes christianity has. All in all something is reasonable. I would be looking for other people to do this. Though always staying as something that is part of. It can't be about a new denomination.
>>1282356
I know, I had it at other places, that a response it always circling around the Most Important Issue.
To refine it:
Christ says:
The great commandment
Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
No matter what you do it can't be false, a sin. Because this fulfils the law.
Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
This is clearly very logical, livable. A good idea. No problem.
So tell me how anything on itself could still be called a sin.
>>1282308
>All sin is like that. Front loaded pleasure, lingering guilt, pain and shame.
I don't feel any guilt, pain or shame from masturbating. people only feels those because they believe it is sinful, there is nothing inherent to masturbation that causes those emotions.
>>1282459
*feel
>>1282429
If you really wanted to make a new reformation, " I " think (though of course I'm not perfect, but it seems...) you'd find some way to make some great acquiescence, under a banner similar to "unity doesn't need to mean uniformity" (Ravi Zacharias), wherein all (read ALL) christians could meet under the commonly held ideals of Jesus, as in his sermon on the mount.
Honestly, though, it might do more harm than good, given our sinful nature and seeming incapacity to not hold our understandings, pride, above others and deep fear people have of making the wrong decision. In the end, I'd "probably" say things are going about exactly to God's plan and though it seems strange, there's a deeper meaning somewhere.
>So tell me how anything on itself could still be called a sin.
Are you really going to make me type stuff I've already said? Everything we do is "sin", we can do no other because we are sinful beings. Even when we think we're not sinning, there are things we've left undone, which is also sin. I didn't stop to give food and care to every person I saw walking down the street I thought might be homeless and destitute, yet I respected my parents the last few days. Did I win? Nope. I sinned.
>>1282479
>Everything we do is "sin", we can do no other because we are sinful beings. Even when we think we're not sinning, there are things we've left undone, which is also sin. I didn't stop to give food and care to every person I saw walking down the street I thought might be homeless and destitute, yet I respected my parents the last few days. Did I win? Nope. I sinned.
I think this is a sort of common view in christianity. That maintains this mistaken thing. Basically it is very repressive, especially to others that are interested in being part of the common spiritual house. Or in other ways. It is a sort of deasly view on this. And how far does -out of free will- go in this?
Thinking about it, this is not based on an imprisonment, but on this sort of thing:
>>1282054(Me)
>Are you really going to make me type stuff I've already said?
I do it too by referring to a previous post. So you saying this and my referring looks sort of, I don't know. As far as I know replies to the question(>>1282429)
can have any sorts of repressions in them. So I say this is now sort of neutralised.
This repressiveness that goes against what Christ says or is of good taste or leads to things that actually work well is common, I think, if it is about this question.>>1282429
Can you tell me why this is?
>>1282391
These people think fapping three times a day to loli porn is normal.
>>1282398
You don't get it.
There are no protestants. There haven't been for 500 years.
Who's picketing the Vatican? What organization stands against Rome? Where are the evils of popery being revealed?
No, the catholic term "protestant" is designed to keep Rome as the center of Christendom.
They're pagans.
>>1282592
Fair enough. All I'm saying is that, whether it's a sin or not in MODERATION masturbation isn't bad for your health.
>>1282429
>I'm interested in changing the whole of christianity.
Christianity is and always has been and always will be the vocal confession that Jesus is Lord, and the belief in the heart that God raised Him from the dead.
That will never change.
>>1282573
>deasly
TYPO ALERT - TYPO ALERT - TYPO ALERT
It is ''''deadly''''
>>1282429
>So tell me how anything on itself could still be called a sin.
"Sin" means "to miss the mark", i.e. to be an archer, shoot at a target, and miss it completely.
The target is "be perfect, as the Father in Heaven is perfect".
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23)
>>1282459
Then you're a reprobate, a psychopath, or 12.
>>1282602
If masturbation happens the same way urinating or defecating do, sure.
If it requires the lust of the eyes, fulfills the lust of the flesh, and is done out of the pride of life, it's literally every type of sin at once.
>>1282573
I don't see it as repressive, I see it as a matter of fact and integral in the practice of confession. If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, the "repressiveness" is from humans' understanding of scripture and how they wield it to make others feel icky and themselves feel superior. That's not a good way to treat the bible. Jesus never said he was going to deny anyone for being icky.
I can't think how else to answer that, if I understand it right, than to say "There's Jesus, and then there are the ways people understand the bible". I mean, that's really all it comes down to, that's all that sects are, schisms, interpretations all of it. The Word is the Word, what we have will always be, while we're on Earth, how we subjectively view the Word. That's why we should believe in the Spirit (of the Word) and be as obedient as possible, while still enjoying life, being good to one another, and moving forward.
And that's all an idealized presentation. Very few, if any, will actually ever do that right.
>>1282601
>There are no protestants. There haven't been for 500 years.
You should tell this to the Protestants.
>>1282634
> Jesus never said he was going to deny anyone for being icky.
underrated statement
>>1282634
>>1282619
>>1282612
Looking at what I said so far, saying this could get you to hell.>>1282429(lower part of the post)>>1282034 >>1282012 >>1282054
Because I open up the understanding. What is real, true. Consciously really meaning the right thing does not fall under this first sentence of this post. But then I would open the understanding.
There is no reason for this unrest or un peace in anything I said. Really and I think sufficient actual literally.
I mean I say this because e.g. me saying this: >I'm interested in changing the whole of christianity.>>1282429
Unless you would be double crossing the matter. And then still, we can figure this out.
>>1282612
a pschopath? really? no one is harmed by me masturbating. despite your ad hominems you still haven't gotten past my point that masturbation does not inherently cause guilt and shame
>>1282780
*psychopath
>>1282642
Give me an address or a phone number and I will.
Christians are not "protestants".
Catholics were "protestants". Martin Luther was a Catholic.
>>1282749
You're actually just an idiot.
>>1282780
So that leaves reprobate or 12.
>>1282809
if you think I'm a retrobate you are certainly entitled to your opinion. and I really don't think "ur underage lol" is worth addressing
I think even being a serious bystander in everything about God. It is not hard or very hard to see that
(But invaluable the keep at rest with the whole thing)
It is like it, the subject, God, His being, communication and will must be considered a science like agriculture, economics, philosophy, and so on.
Even though He is known as a person. As long as it is not done by people, it is not happening.
His person DOES clearly stand out at times. Like when prophecy, healing miracles or apparitions occur. And of course Christ's ministry on earth.
Still however anyone feels about this. Or concludes of this person kind of thing. If this more science part is not done, NOTHING will happen or logically BAD THINGS will happen. And it is just like agriculture, economics or chemistry. There is not even a first spark (so to say) if it is about this part.
At this time it is underdeveloped.
And there was this other thing I don't remember now...
anyway.
>>1271269
we don't
why do Catholics believe sheltering pedophiles is not a sin
>>1282749
only >>1282634 is me in those references. I can't comment on what others mean.
You're saying, "If we think we're doing what Jesus said is right, then we are not sinning"? You're opening a much deeper can of worms here, as your posing an epistemological question of "what do we truly know" regarding the way we interpret. Without going round and round, I can safely say, you're going to come to an end which says, "These actions are never going to be enough to make right what we don't make right. These actions are not what actually saves us, regardless if we see them as correct or otherwise. Doing good does not change our sinful nature."
There's no scoreboard. Doing the good works God prepares for us does not undo the not-so-good we perpetrate in other sectors. Maybe it is in the plan for you to do great things and help people come to Christ. That's not going to change the fact you're a sinner. Never forget that.
>>1282820
Glad we could agree.
You'll grow to learn that you actually are being harmed by excessive fapping.
>>1282826
>There is not even a first spark (so to say) if it is about this part.
So it must all be done. Thoughts, initiatives, failing can be an issue, you place the first brick to the last.
And we don't see this now in masses.
>>1282841
And why don't they hand the kiddy rapers over to the police? Apparently they must not think it a crime!
>>1282863
If you have substantial knowledge and evidence of someone who has mistreated people in such a way, and has not been punished under law, you should communicate it to authorities.
>>1282826
>>1282858
So say this is true.
Then looking at the size of it. I mean how far this goes even if it is about larger things.
That it typical for something that is as chemistry or agriculture.
One better reason to understand this is the fact that God and the spiritual world (angels) consists of not material beings.
Their being is different in this way. So a conclusion about the spiritual world could be wrong for thousands of years and still the whole thing is like a science that must actually be done and implemented or it will remain that way.
Or there can be a prophet on earth that is clearly well instructed. Or that is how it looks. Still this can not lead to any conclusions about this science part. Could be incidental a small thing. But this prophet is not self-evidently all about- or including even the smallest part of this science part.
This is so misleading.
But in all thinkable ways leaving out prophets. Still we have all possible opportunity to understand this sort of thing. The past, the fact that it ''''was'''' there is also not a problem. Looking at facts. How e.g. I would feel about this.
>>1282857
>You'll grow to learn that you actually are being harmed by excessive fapping.
of course excessive masturbation can be harmful if it interferes with your life. however you seem to think that occasional masturbation or any masturbation at all is excessive
>>1282889
What about if I know about millions of such young boys being buggered by catholic priests?
What then?
Turn them all over?
>>1283017
People victimize people, man. It really sucks when it's a person in a position of trust, as a parent, policeman, doctor, or spiritual advisor. Throwing this kind of shade specifically at clergy, while it's amusing in your mind, is only indicative of a greater problem in humanity, and priests are people, just like police are people, parents are people and doctors are people.
So , again , if you have specific information and evidence of a person being mistreated in such a manner, by any source, you should report it to authorities.
>>1271269
You guys don't appreciate that God gave you wet dreams so you can ejaculate without sinning.
>>1283070
You can't be looking very hard if you can't see how many victims of predatory catholic priests there are in the world.
You can't be looking very hard at all.
>>1283081
but lust is a sin. all my wet dreams involved lust so it is not a way to avoid sinning
>>1283088
I think you have negativity bias. People are victimized. Some of those people were victimized by people they were supposed to trust. You have an agenda, but it's not the agenda for the victims at all, and that's too bad.
>>1283104
not him, but the issue isn't that priests harm children. I'm sure they don't do it at a higher rate than other people. the issue is that the Catholic Church didn't turn them in the the authorities or even remove them from positions where they would have access to children and instead shuffled them around to new places where they could tally up more victims
>>1283132
That happens everywhere, too. It happens in government, militaries, colleges, workplaces, corporations. I'm not legitimizing anything. If you have specific credible knowledge and evidence of a person being victimized, you should report it to authorities.
To most effectively be fruitful and multiply in the modern era, I need to have a job and skills before I marry and have a brazillion kids.
Do Muslims use the same biblical verse to condemn masturbation, or do they have their own justification?
>>1283150
>That happens everywhere
not at the level that it did in the Catholic Church, though it doesn't help that the Church is a massive organization spanning most of the globe
>>1271399
By this definition here are some other sins
>eating/drinking anything but bread and water
>having sex for anything but procreation
>playing videogames
>watching movies
>listening to music (that isn't about god or whatever)
>Living in anything but a mud hut
>Shitposting on 4chan about your shitty religion
>>1283173
>not at the level that it did in the Catholic Church
Look, I'm not Catholic. I'm a person with my head screwed on correctly and I know you can't legitimize this statement. Of reported and substantiated cases, it has been a very low percentage of the Catholic clergy population. Yes, the repeat offenders made it look worse, but just as you admit, the organization is prolific, and certainly not to the level people sensationalized it to be. The problem I have is just as when a parent would have done it, vicimization by a person in a position of trust, and if you'd like to open up those kinds of statistics, how many sexually abused children were abused by the parents, then maybe we should just say, "parent are molesters ha ha ha that is such a funny thing because I really hate parents because reasons".
I'm not defending predators. I'm explaining you're being unreasonable in your cited imaginary statistics. I'm explaining people need to go to appropriate authorites and seek justice in that way, not threaten to sue as if the kid was an underpaid prostitute.
>>1283205
I understand that you have not experienced pure evil in your lifetime.
When you have, remember that good also exists.
And yes you are defending predators, even if you don't admit it.
You're the fool saying that the 33,000 emails Hillary deleted didn't have any evidence of wrongdoing in them.
>>1283223
The Catholic predatory pederast problem IS worldwide.
>>1283210
What does evil, good, or Hillary have to do with people victimizing others. These people are victimizing the victims by making them part of the anti-religion agenda without genuine consideration for their well-being.
>>1283210
>>1283227
I think the real issue here is deflection. These people who type these things victimize someone, probably parents who let them stay in dirty basements, or group home tenants who steal others' tapioca pudding, and point the finger at "people somewhere doing something" to make themselves feel better.
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>>1283188
>>eating/drinking anything but bread and water
you need all sorts of nutrients to survive, so no, not a sin
>>having sex for anything but procreation
pretty much, yeah
>>playing videogames
>>watching movies
>>listening to music (that isn't about god or whatever)
Entertainment is not a sin
>>Living in anything but a mud hut
Not a sin
>>Shitposting on 4chan about your shitty religion
*tips fedora*
You will have to come up with better arguments to justify your degeneracy
who cares the rest is all lies any ways.
>>1271269
Touching a penis is pretty gay.
That guy in Orlando never touched his own penis.
>>1283205
I'm not claiming they have a problem with a large number of priests molesting children. I'm saying they have a problem dealing with the few offenders that they have
>>1284573
No, they do have a large problem. It was worse before because people trusted the priests and they were often alone with children. Protestants on the other hand have a huge problem with youth pastors.
>>1283233
>criticizing the church for protecting pedophiles is victimizing victims
No, you unbelievable moron--that's holding the culprits accountable. And trying to prevent the creation of future victims.
Even babies masturbate earlier than they can say a lie. I really don't think it's a sin at all.
>>1271399
Why would a god want you to make art?
>>1281800
*whitness
>>1271399
God wants you to practical and make sure your penis remains functional. Could be embarrassing if you got married and "whoops. Sorry dear. I never tried out my penis before to see if it was functional"
>>1284827
how is that relevant at all to the topic at hand?
I think masturbation is also using porn (whatever kind), going to a prostitute, some other thing why it is not some wacky lonely occasion. As it is looked upon sometimes.
Why exactly would masturbation be against the great commandment?
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
The great commandment is also the fulfilling of the law. Any other commandment in the New or Old testament or some other thing is not a sin if it is not against the great commandment.
So why exactly would masturbation be against the great commandment?
>>1285974 (Me)
Lust:
It is a sin to see lust as a sin. Or it would have to have clear consequences. Like someone is getting wounded because of lust. Or someone gets duped in some other way.
>>1285974
Masturbation is sterile stimulation of the flesh and reduces sexuality to one's own pleasure. You are not loving the Lord when you abuse yourself.
but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
- Romans 7:23
>>1286098
>but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
>- Romans 7:23
This sort of text stood out to me too. I think it is Paul that is bothered by laws of humans. I mean do you know:
- These situations where you know you are right
- But people have this other habit you know very well too
- (Paul after all was a Pharisee and a Roman one at that before his conversion)
- This could be a situation with family, friends, acquaintances, other people you approached.
- It seems it is a sort of situation that is known. Something is untrue or not completely true. But most people say it is.
>>1286029
But my neighbor is lustful, you know. Say I literally love my neighbor. And we have hot kinky sex in between not killing people, not stealing things, not breaking homes, and etc...
Why is a compassionate being like god so arbitary and OCD about this shit? Is he upset because we aren't married under his supervision, that he doesn't get in on this red hod sex?
>>1286150
The "law of humans" aka the law of the flesh is nothing compared to God's law so Paul's frustration with it is understandable.
>>1286169
I think looking at Gods being he is this universal being. The whole law-thing is just about things people would like to know and use. Because it creates this well working order in things. That takes away things like worry, dangers and brings peace and such.
I don't see how he could ever have this disturbing arbitrary position in this. He made it this way. Not to torture with and keep people from it.
>>1286205
He didn't make it this way. We live in a mere shadow of what used to be...
>>1286205
Why are you trying to reason with a person who cannot distinguish love from adultery?
we all need help
>>1286180
OK, but which one is bothering Paul for this situation?
- Masturbation is ok
- Masturbation is not ok
I think we should set this properly, because the whole story is quite chaotic. This is the chaos:
- The book of Romans: about the apostle talking about the orgy like habits of the Romans
- about the apostle spreading the law of Christ, the great commandment
- The organisational problems of the apostle: could he have said: Hello, I'm Paul I have come to bring to you the law of Christ, which is basically the great commandment,(>>1285974). Or how? The Romans weren't this destructive in their civil situations. Do you see the dilemma in this organisational thing?
>>1286247
Paul is bothered by the fact that he has a "natural" inclination to engage in sin. He understands that there are two contrary forces at play in our lives; the pneuma and the sarx. Jesus teaches us to live by His Spirit which allows us to crucify our sinful natures but we are still experiencing this death. Our flesh is dying every day but if we have God's Spirit we will be renewed.
>>1286247
The example would be Paul knowing masturbation is a sin, yet not being able to stop masturbating.
As in, the good that I would do (abstain) I do not; the evil that I would not do (fap) I do. Yet not I, but the sin in me.
Using masturbation only as an example of the sin nature Paul knew he would never be rid of until he got to heaven.
>>1286228
>>1286205
How does it sound?
But this is why I posted this before
>I'm interested in changing the whole of christianity.>>1282429
I think it looks bigger then it is in a way. (Meaning partly to apologize for saying such a thing)
Anyway one remark I am thinking about is that if I go to one of my local Christian fora or in person, a gathering, it is hard to say anything.
>>1286228
>voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.
Why do you conflate your own core tenets to mean something they don't?
>>1286322
the church is the bride of christ and having sex outside of marriage is spiritual adultery
>>1286337
Tell that to the alter boy, who is the bride of a smelly, 40 year old cock that goes ritually unpunished by divine mandates.
>>1286247(Me)
>>1286273
But for this discussion: would you say that the man made law is for or against masturbation?
>>1286276
Ok, this is Masturbation is not ok.
Can this be unanimously be agreed upon?
- Paul had this problem:
> - The organisational problems of the apostle:>>1286247
- The Romans were also all about laws. It was not that Paul would have to teach them about laws, laws that work well, that are beneficial, or even being like the one Christ gave, the great commandment.
It was just about converting the Romans to Christ's law. So to Christ.
>>1286322
Love
Sex
Can you tell the difference?
>>1271269
Where did you get that idea from? There have been plenty of fundamentalist protestants who hate masturbation. If anything, they're more vocal about it than any of the catholics where I'm from.
>>1284827
>>1284846
I misread, and can't delete.
>>1286346
The man made law is the law of the flesh so it is for masturbation. Children of men follow man's law and children of God follow God's law.
>>1286346
Paul did not give anyone "Christ's Laws", and Paul did not tell people to follow the Great Commandment.
Christ has no laws, unless you want to call the "Law of Faith" a law.
The Great Commandment was already in the Old Covenant.
Paul taught the New Covenant pursuant to the Great Commission, straight from revelation from Jesus Himself, in person, after He rose from the dead, in Arabia, for three years.
>>1284827
To express your creativity, I would suppose.
>>1286360
I don't need to. Exclusive sex is a token of love, because it's intimate, and because it's exclusive. I could be out committing spicy adultery, but the person I'm with has the assurance that they are the only person I hold in such a high esteem that I would. And that it's something that is theirs exclusively from me. And likewise, I ideally have this assurance to. Sex takes meaning in that, and I don't need marriage to bestow it on me.
If god were good and right, he wouldn't need worldly institutions to recognize the love with two people. If god were good and right, he would know that his children deliberate and show agency, he gave it to them.
>>1286378
And if my sex fantasies(and hers in this hypothetical) are creative?
>>1286382
I am and yes masturbation is sin.
>>1286386
marriage is a spiritual institution whereby two become one flesh consecrated to god until death
sex outside of this bond is destructive
>>1286445
Masturbation is not part of Christ's law.
>>1286386
Enjoy life as a reprobate, I suppose, if that's even possible.
>>1286452
Please an exact answer. About Romans 7:23 in this post >>1286098
>>1286346(Me)
Can this be unanimously be agreed upon?
- Paul had this problem:
> - The organisational problems of the apostle:>>1286247 (You)
- The Romans were also all about laws. It was not that Paul would have to teach them about laws, laws that work well, that are beneficial, or even being like the one Christ gave, the great commandment.
It was just about converting the Romans to Christ's law. So to Christ.
>>1286507
Masturbation is a result of the "other law at work in me" that Paul refers to in Romans 7:23. This is something all human beings are born with and it is only through Jesus that we can grow out of it. Not just for Romans and their laws but for all people.
>>1286583
Masturbation is from the other law because it is about stimulating your flesh. Christ's law is to love God and others but masturbators are just loving their flesh.
>>1286597
.
Stimulating the flesh
It is something basically all people want to do. There is no reason to see it other then like with eating. About it coming back, that sort of thing. It is of course not the same thing.
Just loving the flesh
It is something that all people want to do for some reason. It is created that way. Why conclude that it is bad?
>>1286691
All people want to do it because of the other law Paul was talking about and you need to eat to survive not like masturbating.
It wasn't created that way Adam didn't masturbate in Eden.
>>1286691
Masturbating has been shown to help keep all your plumbing in working order. It's actually healthy to masturbate a couple times a week.
>>1286406
So the sky aint a church?
>>1286705
Ok, so this reply sort of binds the great commandment or Christ's will at a certain point. >>1285974
And this is why I see the checksum -so to say- is incorrect.
Romans 14
,,...nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean....''
The thing is that
a] The position of people saying that it is a sin is too big. In relation to the common spiritual house, Christianity
b] the whole situation is too underdeveloped. Too worthless. This could be a description of the problem>>1282826 (You)
>>1286952 (Me)
Disregard everything that I have said since I happen to enjoy giving fellatio to human males.
>>1286952
You're missing the big picture.
Paul is telling you that you are dead.
You're consumed with festivals and sins and forgiveness of sins and the eating of meats dedicated to idols and overindulgence of the flesh by all means, and you're missing the big picture.
You are dead.
And they don't let dead people into heaven.
You keep citing the Great Commandment. You cannot follow the Great Commandment. Nobody can. You can do your best, and please do, but your best is not "perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect".
And the Great Commandment is in the Old Covenant too. If all Jesus did was to tell you to follow the Old Covenant, He would not have been tortured to death so that you might live.
>>1287015
Why dead?
Or maybe you can't say this here? I mean you talked about A bigger picture. This could be anything.
>You keep citing the Great Commandment. You cannot follow the Great Commandment. Nobody can.
This is this:>>1286774
>the checksum -so to say- is incorrect.
That is not how it works. Practically. Or would you say that you don't see that?
>And the Great Commandment is in the Old Covenant too. If all Jesus did was to tell you to follow the Old Covenant, He would not have been tortured to death so that you might live.
Compared to the great commandment in the Old testament and the New testament there is a difference. A difference that was the reason for Christ's ministry on earth.
So to keep oversight:
- God does not change
- How do you see that Christ's ministry was not useful, or I mean this exact thing:
>If all Jesus did was to tell you to follow the Old Covenant, He would not have been >tortured to death so that you might live.
Because the great commandment was also in the Old testament?
>>1287103
Death to you is a cessation of life. You think you're alive right now, and that one day you will cease being alive and be dead.
Death to God is a separation from Him, as He is Life. If you have Him, you have life. If you do not have Him, you do not have Life.
So while you are physically alive, you are spiritually dead, and again, the dead do not enter into the Kingdom. They get sorted into the second death, aka the lake of fire, aka hell.
>>1287103
As to the notion of eating foods dedicated to idols.
I would do it because I don't care if the meat was first offered to some pagan God, and cooked, and then served to me. I know nothing happened.
But if you came from that temple, became a christian, and were invited to my house, I would not buy meat that had been offered to your old idol, for your conscience's sake. Not because it was a "sin", but because it might offend you, and if you were weak enough, discourage you from walking with God in your new relationship with Him.
So if I go to your house, I don't ask you where the meat came from, because I don't care. You serve me meat, I eat it, all is well.
But if you serve me meat at your house and tell me that it was offered to idols, I will not eat it because now you have made this a spiritual issue that it was not before; I will not allow you to put me in the situation where my God is now going to punish you.
Still not "sin".
All iniquity, all transgressions, were taken care of at the cross.
"Sin" just means "missing the mark", and the "mark" is "be perfect, as the Father in heaven is perfect".
>>1271269
Most of them do
>>1287135
I think we should look at this:
The protestant church is wrong about their view on masturbation.
And so are other Christian churches. They have about the same view.
Because it is not possible to go into what I say.
>>1287135
This means that you say that masturbation is a sin. And anyone remaining in sin is not saved.
But you don't seem to go into e.g. this sort of thing:
Romans 14
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.
14B
...if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean...
17...the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking...
That is why I posted this before: >>1282429 (Changing the whole of Christianity). I don't have any immodest intentions. But I do conclude that this is something it comes down to.
So can you go into verses 13, 14, and 17. This principle that can be seen in other books too. It is not just Romans 14.
Or can we conclude that the protestant church is yes or no wrong with its view on masturbation?
Abstention from masturbation retains semen which gets circulated in the bloodstream and increases testosterone levels, increasing feelings of vigor and wellbeing. This suppressed sexual energy can be redirected towards great endeavors. Not having a physiological explanation for this, some loons long ago who decided to not masturbate realized it made them feel far more vigorous and seem more attractive, and they thus deemed abstinence holy.
Obversely, excessive masturbation can lead to the exact opposite feelings: excessive weariness, tiredness, etc...
Most boys first start masturbating because they feel an itch under their foreskin, itch their dick, realize itching it feels pleasurable, then begin to jack off because it feels so good. Supposedly, without a foreskin, these itches would naturally be rubbed off by contact with one's own underclothes; circumcision also makes the penis less sensitive by accustoming the cock under the foreskin to such repeated rubbing. So the solution is, snip off the foreskin and kids stop masturbating.
You put the two together, and that leads to circumcision and injunctions against masturbation. At least, that's what I think on it anyway.
>>1288201
>semen which gets circulated in the bloodstream
wut
Cumming is the same as spitting or bleeding
It's just a bodily fluid, a part of your body, sperm are not living beings they are like blood cells or skin sells, they just carry dna in way to create a new person when combine with a woman's egg cell.
Of course it's not a sin, you really think God doesn't understand the biological system he created?
Abortion of course is murder as science and religion both agree life begins at conception.
>>1276873
He didn't say anything about setting your pets on fire or driving without liscence plates either.
>>1284827
Even if its a misread Ill bite.
A God would love art being created by a follower as it implies he is tapping into that great knowledge within us all. Its an Artists version of what a priest might do by fasting and meditating to seek enlightenment.
The Renaissance comes to mind as a great example of this.
T. heretic slowly finding the light
>>1282857
taking a wild guess here: youre dick doesnt get hard anymore and youre jealous of the actual 12 year olds right?
>>1280469
>Catholic here.
thanks for the info.
>>1281782
Honestly? I'm vaguely curious.
>>1287271
So what is the reply to this?
>>1290444(Me)
And I mean all we christians do about the faith. Hopes, speaking, looking for other people.
It is so useless... Not like in Ecclesiastes but the other one like in sinful. This is a distinction that is clear right away.
I think I should be introduced to other maybe more internationally based christians by christians here.
>>1271269
Protestants actually do believe masturbation is a sin.
Sage
