Why do Roman Catholics feel the need to encase all of their supposedly "incorruptible" bodies with was?
The Orthodox don't even embalm bodies, let alone encase them with wax. For us, an incorruptible body means there is no stench, and instead of rotting, it gradually mummifies. We don't use cosmetic trickery. Pic related.
>preserving bodies at all
cool party trick though
>>1270452
Can you explain why you are antagonistic to preserving bodies as opposed to any other relic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalia_Lombardo
Speaking of preservation
>>1270489
Chinese mummies held up pretty good after 2000 years too
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xin_Zhui
>>1270485
What point does it serve for the vast majority of people?
"Oh look, Yao Ming was a chink, what a surprise"
>>1270346
the one in the OP is an orthodox
>>1270688
Hence why it isn't covered in wax. Did you read the OP?
Makes for a better tourist attraction?
>>1270708
the Catholics don't cover their saints in wax, stop slandering your brothers in Christ
>>1270735
Many incorruptible bodies, apon study by third parties, have been found with various preservatives or cosmetic measures.
likewise bodies from other religions and ordinary people of many faiths have been found in remarkable states of preservation, very similar to incorruptibles
>>1270735
Not in that case, but in most cases (pic related). In that case
>Paula's body has been bathed in carbolic acid since her death in 1882
>>1270746
she was opened up by secular scientists and her organs were perfectly preserved. It was only her face that has a bit of wax, but it's not for preservation. How mad are you exactly that the Catholic Church is the real Church of Christ?
I am still waiting for you to answer pic related. Why did God let the muslims conquer constantinople and turn hagia sophia into a mosque, but with the intercession of the Virgin Mary he BTFO the muslims in Lepanto? Muslim sources, not Chrisian ones, tell us that muslim soldiers saw the sky open, and a woman followed by many angels came down from it and scared the shit out of them.
>>1270746
also why did Our Lady give the rosary to catholics and not to the orthodox? This catholic bishop was actually told by Jesus and told that by praying it boko haram would be defeated, look up his story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83KIv9tlC0Y
>>1270753
>a bit of wax,
pic related
>the intercession of the Virgin Mary
Haha, bro that's not intercession, you have her like some kind of war god. Intercession means she prays for you, not comes down like Ares, what kind of pagan nonsense is this?
>>1270758
>also why did Our Lady give the rosary to catholics and not to the orthodox?
We have prayer rope and had long before you had Rosaries, we just use it to pray to Christ rather than Mary. Don't know if the RCC sees that as haram
>>1270777
>you have her like some kind of war god
as usual, when the orthodox are called out, they revert to protestant beliefs. We don't do any of that, we simply ask for her intercession.
>what kind of pagan nonsense is this?
There is nothing pagan about it. All the Christians soldiers did was pray the Rosary and reflect on the life of Jesus, before the battle began. The Muslims are the ones who say the sky open and were terrified.
I see that you don't have any answer as to why God lets islamic forces BTFO you, but he doesn't allow it to happen in Lepanto. Btw, the Catholic world was in a crisis back then, and yet they managed to win.
>>1270779
> we just use it to pray to Christ rather than Mary
Again, you revert to protestant babble. Do you even know what a Rosary is? The Rosary is a means to spiritual contemplation of the life of Christ, through the intercession of the Virgin Mary.
It is not praying to Mary. I thought you were better than this? And yet you spout southern baptist hogwash to defend your case.
We have nothing against the Jesus prayer, and in fact there are Catholics who pray it. Furthermore we have many different prayers similar to it. I don't know how they are called in English, but in our history we have always had short prayers that were recited in one's mind many times during the day.
Now for the next question: if the Catholic faith is the real one, why did Our Lady of Fatima ask the Pope and all Catholic bishops united to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, instead of asking one of the many orthodox popes?
>>1270803
*is not the real one
>>1270777
btw it is quite obvious why the Virgin Mary appears from the sky and not Jesus himself. When Jesus himself does it, that will be the end of the world. That's why he sends his mother and the angels instead
>>1270803
The Theotokos can intercede for you. This means to pray to God, it doesn't mean for her to come down from Mount Olympus and do battle with the enemy like a pagan god. Praying for a saint for something means asking the saint to pray for you regarding that, it would mean to pray to the Theotokos to pray to God for victory, not pray to the Theotokos to come down and kick some butt.
>It is not praying to Mary.
Yeah it is, we both pray to saints. "Pray" just means to "plead", like "prithee" or "please". You pray to saints to pray for you.
My issue is that you seem to think the Rosary is some sort of special talisman given to the Catholics over a thousand years after Christ which Orthodox don't have access to because we're stuck with the inferior prayer rope.
>>1270811
Mary is dead. She wont rise from the grave until judgement day
Only Jesus is alive.
You are actually asking the devil to intercede for you..
>>1270814
>This means to pray to God, it doesn't mean for her to come down from Mount Olympus and do battle with the enemy like a pagan god
Wow, this is some damage control you've got going. She didn't battle them in a physical sense.
>it would mean to pray to the Theotokos to pray to God for victory,
Which is exactly what happened
>not pray to the Theotokos to come down and kick some butt.
Again, you are trying to shit the focus from the real point here. Mary only appeared as a sign that heaven was on the side of Christians, and that God had heard our prayers. She didn't physically attack the muslims. You are being disingenuous to evade the question.
> You pray to saints to pray for you.
We agree. I am not the one who said that the rosary means praying to Mary, you did.
>My issue is that you seem to think the Rosary is some sort of special talisman given to the Catholics over a thousand years after Christ which Orthodox don't have access to because we're stuck with the inferior prayer rope.
It is not a talisman, it is a means to prayer. You don't have to use beads to pray it. It is very easy, in fact, to count the number of prayers simply by using your fingers. Our requests are amplified by the intercession of the Virgin Mary. If you look up history, you'll find that has been the case innumerable times.
Fact is, both Mary and Jesus directly gave us powerful prayers to help us strengthen our faith and repel heresy. That is a great case for Catholicism. Pic related.
Why does that not happen in Orthodoxy? Why is it that the devil constantly tried to infiltrate the Catholic Church instead of the orthodox and that God demonstrably comes to our aid throughout history to stop the gates of hell from prevailing?
>>1270823
(you)
>>1270814
You CAN pray the rosary though. Nothing's stopping you. If she gave you guys it, nothing would stop us from picking it up.
And again, Mary didn't actually fight like some pagan Valkyrie. She appeared in the sky, it freaked out the Ottoman heathens and they ran off. Well, sailed off, but still.
>>1270823
Here's your (you).
Please fellate an agave cactus.
>>1270835
>>1270814
This is a good video about the story of the rosary, how the devil tried to stop it from being practiced and how it helped many times in upholding the faith:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfwnlktvi4
>>1270803
>It is not praying to Mary.
Yes it is, the Catholic version of the Hail Mary is very much a prayer
>>1270811
If God will a non-physical representatives, he sends angel, not saints. Angels are naturally incorporeal, but we're not supposed to be, we are meant to be bodily creatures. This is why Elijah was taken up bodily, because when God sends him to proclaim the second coming, it will be in body.
I'm not saying visions of saints can't happen, but God doesn't use incorporeal saints to accomplish earthly tasks.
>>1270835
We use icons to pray to and venerate the Theotokos.
There's nothing heretical about praying the Rosary, and having a disciplined structure of prayer is great, but don't try to pretend its invention is some spiritual breakthrough that marks the RCC as superior.
>>1270856
Are you familiar with what Muslims think of her?
>>1270866
They think very highly of her, although they don't pray to her like the RCC says they do.
>>1270856
>Yes it is, the Catholic version of the Hail Mary is very much a prayer
lmao, absolutely not. Care to point out the exactly what part of it makes it a prayer to her and not through her?
>>1270856
>he sends angel, not saints.
In fact, she wasn't alone in the sky. Many angels were with her.
>I'm not saying visions of saints can't happen, but God doesn't use incorporeal saints to accomplish earthly tasks.
First of all you should define what an earthly task is. There are many exampels throughout Church history where saints appear or do things similar to what angels do. For example once a Pope appeared and told a praying (future) saint that he was to be in Purgatory until the day of judgement. Btw angels are incorporeal too, angels don't have a body, what are you on about? lmao
Another example is the statue of Our Lady of Good Success. It was completed by the angels gabriel, raphael, michael, and st. francis of assisi. Btw I suggest you look up that marian apparition. It dates 1600 but it describes the events of the 20th century. Amazing, isn't it? It is also about the Catholic Church, not mention of orthodoxy, I wonder why....
>>1270865
> don't try to pretend its invention is some spiritual breakthrough that marks the RCC as superior.
I already explained the point. Jesus and Mary giving us prayers directly. That does not happen in orthodoxy
Here is a video that explains the links between it and current events. It is a bit long, but you'll find it interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjUtzh4UpRc
>>1270880
a pic of the statue
>displaying decomposing bodies in your church
How disgusting.
>>1270880
another sentence
>>1270874
Yeah, and they'd recognize her. Muslims are known to venerate her in an almost Catholic way (non-Madonna depictions though, they still don't like how we call Jesus "God Incarnate").
So when the Ottomans saw Maryim, the woman who the Prophet's daughter Fatima only barely cam close to in perfection, appear in the sky on the side of the infidel Christians, what do you think they'd do? How would they react?
>>1270885
Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical of this story
>>1270892
why?
>>1270880
>Care to point out the exactly what part of it makes it a prayer to her and not through her?
You are asking her to do something (pray for you), this is by definition a prayer, a plead.
>Btw angels are incorporeal too, angels don't have a body
Right, that is their natural state. For humans, it is a deformity.
> Amazing, isn't it? It is also about the Catholic Church, not mention of orthodoxy, I wonder why....
We have Marian footprints, if you believe in all that. Personally I \don't think people in heaven make earthly apparitions very often except to extremely spiritual people, since those sorts can see the spiritual directly (including the "face of God").
I'll look at your video later, but I really don't like the Catholic conception of Mary, especially the idea of her as co-mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).
>>1270893
I am suppose to believe these quotes of Mary unraveling a masonic conspiracy centuries before it happened without so much as a source?
>>1270891
>Muslims are known to venerate her in an almost Catholic way
I know Vatican II says this, but it's bull
>So when the Ottomans saw Maryim, the woman who the Prophet's daughter Fatima only barely cam close to in perfection, appear in the sky on the side of the infidel Christians, what do you think they'd do? How would they react?
How would they even recognize her?
>>1270923
>I know Vatican II says this, but it's bull
Um, no. Look up what Muslims think of Mary.
And they'd recognize her from encounters with Christian iconography and knowing the subdugated Christians really liked her.
>>1270909
>You are asking her to do something (pray for you), this is by definition a prayer, a plead.
u wot m8? That is the very definition of intercession, asking saints to pray for you. Are you sure you are not a protestant?
>Right, that is their natural state. For humans, it is a deformity.
I don't even get what you mean by this. Are you implying that saints in heaven are somewhat deformed, i.e. in a corrupted state? WTF?
You said that God does not send saints on earth because they are incorporeal. Then you said that he sends angels instead. But angels are incorporeal too. Just admit you said something stupid.
>I \don't think people in heaven make earthly apparitions very often except to extremely spiritual people,
which is what happens in the Catholic Church. That lepanto event was an extraordinary case. Apparitions and miracles are ALWAYS a means to teach us, convert us, and bring us to repentance. They don't happen because God is bored.
>especially the idea of her as co-mediator
We simply think graces pass through her hands before reaching earth. She is not a mediator in the sense that Jesus is.
>>1270919
what sources are you looking for exactly? It is an approved apparition by the Church. It was approved in that same century.
There is a big ass book about the life of Mariana, the nun who witnessed the apparitions.
Here are more quotes:
http://www.tfp.org/tfp-home/about-our-lady/prophecies-of-our-lady-of-good-success-about-our-times.html
This has more complete evidence if you want to dig it up:
http://traditioninaction.org/OLGS/olgshome.htm
This video, albeit a bit long, links what the apparition said with the events of the 20th century, and they are precise af:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjUtzh4UpRc [
>>1270909
Okay, tell me, what does Co-mediatrix mean? Not what YOU say it means, what WE say it means. Especially the co- part.
Because last I checked co- comes from cum which means "with" and in the context of "I am with my puppy." In that sentance, you are not equal to the puppy, but you are with it. Mary is WITH the Mediator. Alongside, in the company of, not equal. And this relationship is what "Co-Redempterix" is talking about.
>>1270949
>Um, no. Look up what Muslims think of Mary.
Highly. That doesn't mean they pay veneration to her like Catholics do
>And they'd recognize her from encounters with Christian iconography and knowing the subdugated Christians really liked her.
So we're talking Orthodox iconography?
>>1270979
Mediatrix is the feminine nominative form of mediator in Latin. If it was meant as you say it is, the word would be mediatori (masculine dative)
>>1270968
a better, more comprehensive link:
http://www.tfp.org/tfp-home/about-our-lady/a-victim-for-the-twentieth-century.html
Because they are a death cult that uses the fear of death, that idolizes piety and suppressess human nature, and shame and guilt trip their followers into their pews.
They aren´t a good representation of the peaceful and loving philosophy of Christianity.
>>1270982
Probably. But then again, can recognize a Byzantine icon of Mary as Mary. If in 1794 a French guy read Ottoman accounts of Lepanto and recognized the description as fitting Mary, he'd depict the appirition as a Western Madonna.
>>1270968
Have any secular sources on this? I m not Catholic anymore so to be blunt I dont trust Catholic sources on this stuff without third party verification of the basic facts
>>1271019
(You)
>>1271019
>Christianity is modernist secular liberalism
>>1271025
I don't think Byzantines depicted her with a crown. That's a Russian convention.
>>1271026
as a follow up the little I could dig out on google leaves me skeptical that these particular prophecies (not the accounts of a vision) came before the early 20th century,
>>1271066
clearly that source is not secular and I did not see a clear citation of a primary source for these particular quotes
There is nothing more cringe-worthy than seeing 4chan users talking about the Virgin Mary and "Our Lady" and sounding like some superstitious hags sending each other crappily-made 'devotional' macros on Facebook
>>1271079
Áve María, grátia pléna,
Dóminus técum.
Benedícta tu in muliéribus,
et benedíctus frúctus véntris túi, Iésus.
Sáncta María, Máter Déi,
óra pro nóbis peccatóribus,
nunc et in hóra mórtis nóstrae. Ámen
>>1271183
>praying to some dead Middle-Eastern whore
Mods really need to start banning obvious religion threads.
>>1271190
Religion is a relic of the past, so it belongs on /his/.
>>1271190
>blasphemy against the Ark of the New Covenant
>>1271073
I doubt there are secular sources because it is not a famous apparition, so atheists don't give a shit about it.
The link I gave you was based on info from the material gathered to bring forward canonization. The Church is very strict about apparitions. 90% of them are not recognized by it.
>>1270753
>she was opened up by secular scientists and her organs were perfectly preserved.
Citation needed.
>>1271201
>so atheists don't give a shit about it
You do realize there are atheist scholars of Christianity, right?
>>1271223
and? as I said the apparitions are not well known at all, even among christians
>>1271228
There should be secular scholarship of it. Because it stands, it sounds like conspiracy theory tier nonsense.
>>1270679
If your only argument is that it's not utilitarian, they all art should be burnt and done away with, right?
>>1271238
>Bishop Salvador de Ribera of Quito attested in official documents to the miraculous completion of the Statue by St. Francis of Assisi and the three Archangels – St. Michael, St. Gabriel and St. Raphael – and presided over the anointing of the solemn consecration of the Statue in the Church of the Royal Convent of the Immaculate Conception on February 2, 1611. The devotion and apparitions were also authorized and promoted by the next Bishop of Quito, Pedro de Oviedo, who governed the Diocese from 1630 to 1646.
http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/quito/index.html
As I said, if the Church approved it, it means there was good reason to believe it's true. Don't underestimate how strict and sincere the Church is in approving apparitions. You only need to look at Medjugorje to have proof of that. Even though it has become a worldwide phenomenon and a place of pilgrimage for millions of people every year, the Church has not approved it (and never will) because it is obviously a false apparition or a complete scam. If the Church was not to be trusted, they would approve it simply on the basis that it brings people to the faith, but they don't.
>>1271259
Can't really take the RCC at her word aboiut anything after the Donation of Constantine
>>1271259
Considering the RCC tried to cover shit up in the past, I don't take anything they say at face value. The fact that apparition is obviously either a scam of false means that backing it would hurt their reputation, so it wouldn't be in their interests to back it.
>>1270346
I visited the St. Peter in Rome a few years back and was kind of disturbed by all the mummies in the basilica. I had never heard of that practise. Gave the already imposing and looming structure a pretty morbid undertone.
Didn't help that one of the glass sarcophagi had been cordoned off at a distance because the body it contained had started to decay. Even from that distance you could see that it had completely turned black.
>>1271292
Modernism makes a tremendous effort to forget death exists except in an abstract or fantastic sense, infant mortality today is barely even witnessed, it's done clinically before birth. Pre-modernists didn't have that luxury, death was present everywhere, from famines, plagues, wars, childbirth (for mother or baby), you saw many deaths long before you were fullgrown. Today death has become some ugly truth we try to cover up and hide, like Soylent Green or something.
>>1271314
True, but I was mostly shocked by the display itself. Death is an awful thing everyone in life has to deal with, but to drag it out in the open and display it for everyone on a nice gilded pedestal?
I can understand doing it for archaeological reasons, but not for much else.
>>1271336
I'm not even religious, but death is necessary for life and this shouldn't be forgotten or ignored.
>>1271336
>Whenever possible, we should always remember death, for this displaces all cares and vanities, allowing us to guard our intellect and giving us unceasing prayer, detachment from our body and hatred of sin. Indeed, it is a source of almost every virtue. We should therefore, if possible, use it as we use our own breathing.
Saint Hesychios the Priest, as quoted in the Philokalia
>Acquire an inseparable wife—the remembrance of death.
The Ladder of Divine Ascent
>>1271364
>Whenever possible, we should always remember death, for this displaces all cares and vanities, allowing us to guard our intellect and giving us unceasing prayer, detachment from our body and hatred of sin. Indeed, it is a source of almost every virtue. We should therefore, if possible, use it as we use our own breathing.
beautiful t b h
>>1271275
>The fact that apparition is obviously either a scam of false means that backing it would hurt their reputation, so it wouldn't be in their interests to back it.
By admitting this you are anawaringly admitting that the Church only approves of true apparitions and not false ones. Natural consequence is that if they approve something, it is true
>>1271391
Here is the second quote in full context
>Let him be your father who is able and willing to labour with you in bearing the burden of your sins; and your mother—contrition, which can cleanse you from impurity; and your brother—your comrade who toils and fights side by side with you in your striving toward the heights. Acquire an inseparable wife—the remembrance of death. And let your beloved children be the sighs of your heart. Make your body your slave; and your friends, the Holy Powers (Angels) who can help you at the hour of your death, if they become your friends. This is the generation (family) of those who seek the Lord.
Sheds a bit of light on how Christ used the term "generation", eh?
>Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
>>1271408
Very nice. Sayings of the Desert Fathers is next on my reading list. I guess i'll have to add the Philokalia too.
>>1271431
Have you read The Way of the Pilgrim?
>>1271438
I have not but I have heard about it in passing on this board. Honestly, out of all three which would you recommend starting with for someone who is interested in orthodoxy??
>>1271441
The Way of the Pilgrim is the easiest, it's very short and is a novel (written by an anonymous monk). I think it is one of the best works to read as an introduction to Orthodoxy, apart from those written specifically as introductions to Orthodoxy.
>>1271275
>>1271270
This book covers the whole story in detail:
https://www.amazon.com/Story-Lady-Good-Success-Novena/dp/0988372363/177-9392827-6090316?ie=UTF8&keywords=our%20lady%20of%20good%20success%20and%20novena&qid=1377692738&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2
>>1271259
without a primary source, a period dated document with these prophesies in them, there is no reason for anyone to take this seriously. I happen to know many of these type of sights are not doing due diligence and going back to primary sources to write their articles, so there is no reason, in the academic sense to take them seriously
>>1270346
How do you justify spending almost everyday among retards, autists, degenerates - and browse trough 1/4 porn overall.
Also how do you feel when you are told everyday that you're a trip fag - and it just shows that you're full of pride since the whole community is against it... you have to be special, you have to be the special snowflake - people have to know YOU'RE CONSTANTINE and give you credit for what you said,
>>1270735
>brothers in Christ
nice meme
Friendly reminder that ecumenism is satanic and all catholics are hell-bound.
>>1272907
Catholics are satan worshippers
>>1272934
>>1272949
>>1272955
>>1272959
>>1272977
>Christcucks getting triggered by meme images
>>1272977
>implying catholics aren't jewish agents
>>1270346
>literal charnel houses
laffin at u here lads, worship your finger bones and shit all you want
>this thread
>>1273185
You do realize Joseph bears the title "Terror of Demons" right?
https://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/Litanies/joseph.htm
Not to mention the fact he's part of the Holy Family.
>>1272934
Is this martyr a Satan worshipper too?
>>1270346
>yfw Lenin hasn't decayed at all
>yfw you realized god was truly on Lenin's side all along.
>>1273370
https://youtu.be/k9710brnmd4?t=165
>>1273356
but he doesn't get shrines and as much worship as Mary though. And considering he's the terror of demons, you'd think catholic places would be selling figures and shit of him to scare demons off.
>>1273396
Is he the Theotokos?
Also, try Churches named after him.
Also also, have you ever been to a Catholic book store? It's pretty easy to get stuff of St Joseph.
>>1270779
>the Rosary is all about Mary
Sweet bait.
>>1270823
Remember that every time you insult the Ark of the New Covenant you deserve to be struck dead. Remember Uzzah; the wrath of God remains on you.
>>1271407
No, actually. I'm acknowledging they'd only back ones that aren't obviously fake.
>>1273411
>Mystery of Light
>not Luminous Mystery when the other 3 sets are arranged like that
>not doing Mystery of Joy/Sorrow/Glory if you do "Mystery of Light"
That triggers my autism. Really minor but it just annoys me how there's a break of form.
>>1272977
Dude, what the fuck are you smoking? People shit-tallk Judaism all the fucking time on 4chan. Fuck you and your victim complex, you whiny cunt.
>>1272966
Are you "Prince of The Most High" from /x/?
>>1270576
T-that is a trick of the devil. Only Christian ones are fo realz! (And that, depending on your denomination).
>>1273441
I just grabbed a random pic from google images desu. I don't even know what they're called in english (not my language).
>>1273492
Where are you from?
Damn that Mary is too beautiful. I'm being tempted... Stick to medieval and orthodox non realist depictions.
>>1273406
I came from a Catholic country, they didn't have as many shrines and statues of him as they have of Mary. And he didn't get mentioned as much. And there was no stories of him appearing to people.
>>1273185
Joseph got literally cucked. Who's going to pray to him?
>>1273497
I am from a beautiful planet created by God.
>>1273517
>>1273533
Exodus 25:11-22
>>1270735
We pimp them out, though
>>1274390
>Digging up random bones, dressing them up, and proclaiming them to be relics all to make money
Typical Christcuck corruption and trickery.
Mom loves me more than you!
>>1274422
>Digging up random bones
citation needed you little shit
