Is the existence of a fiery eternal hell justified? I believe so. We are all given a chance here to better ourselves. Don't let the worldly life deceive you. God has the best reward with him.
>>1264230
if it wasn't justified there would be no hell
>>1264335
Well, I guess that's why there is none :^)
Well that's just fantastic, OP. Thank you for sharing this with us all today.
There's this really neat board you can discuss this on, it's called /x/. Have fun!
It isn't. The God is petty tyrant who send you to torture for losing in some fucked up game which you don't want to play most of the time.
>>1264346
>God is a tyrant and evil
>but remember he doesn't exist
>but he is totally evil
>>1264385
>something that doesn't exist is evil
>athiest logic and reason
>>1264396
>People can't hold the opinion that fictional characters are evil
I mean have you ever read a book? Other than the bible I mean.
>>1264402
Have you ever read a book of the bible?
>>1264396
Since you seem to be having trouble with this line of thinking, what about this one: "If a god such as the one described in the bible existed, he would be a tyrant and evil god". Better?
>>1264431
No, and I have never had any reason to either. Much like I will never have a reason to read the entirety of the Unabomber manifesto.
>>1264433
God becomes Man so that He can save your life.
You: Tyrant! Evil!
>>1264230
Absolutely.
It's not "infinite punishment for finite crime."
It's "your dead. This is where the dead go. You asked for this. You wanted nothing to do with God. This is the place for that."
>>1264444
What a waste of quads.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
That's you. You're one of the small. Your life is recorded in books in heaven.
Just not the Lamb's Book of Life.
>>1264474
I have still not been presented with any reason why I should take the Bible more seriously than the Unabomber manifesto. I mean if I had to make a choice on which book I'd base my entire life and philosophy on I'd choose the latter.
>>1264478
Their like robots man, don't bother. They'll keep quoting the bible as if it was an argument and will keep doing it until they eventually short circuit and self-destruct.
Just smile and be happy you aren't wasting your life like they are.
>>1264461
Save my life from world that he created?
>>1264461
God wipes practically the entire population with a flood.
God demands that a father kills his own son.
God "saves" me from something I never did nor asked to be saved from with a human sacrifice.
God sends people who don't believe in him or don't follow his orders to suffer eternally in hell.
(...)
You: Merciful! The representation of all that is good!
>>1264495
The old testament should be dropped like the jewfairytale collection it is.
The cathars had good intentions.
>>1264468
Absolutely.
It's not "punishment for crime."
It's "you are enemy of state. This is where the enemies of the state go. You asked for this. You wanted nothing to do with Communism. This is the place for that."
>>1264478
Cause and effect.
Crime and punishment.
You can believe whatever you want, but you are not free from the resulting consequences of your beliefs.
I'm presenting to you an infinitely negative outcome, and if the chance of that outcome to you is any higher than absolute zero, your outcome is infinitely negative.
But you're "rational", right?
>>1264494
The world that your forefathers ruined, and in the process ruined themselves, causing you to be stillborn, yes.
You need to be saved from being stillborn.
>>1264537
>Its another "dude pascals wager lmao" episode
>>1264495
>God wipes practically the entire population with a flood.
There was only one pure human family left by that time. Everyone else was tainted. The pure humans were saved; the monsters were destroyed.
>God demands that a father kills his own son.
And God held back that man's hand.
But God did not hold back the hands that killed His Son.
>God "saves" me from something I never did nor asked to be saved from with a human sacrifice.
You were born dead, and unless you regain the life in you lost by your ancestors, you will be sorted out with the dead. Your unbelief will condemn you.
>God sends people who don't believe in him or don't follow his orders to suffer eternally in hell.
There's nowhere else to go.
>>1264507
God is made of much tougher steel than Stalin.
>>1264230
A hell where demons strap you down into torture lines is described no where in the Bible. Hell is described as a bad place and thats it.
>>1264547
It's "Are you a rational being?"
So far, the answer is "no".
Option 1: Jesus, and good, and life, and heaven.
Option 2: Satan, and evil, and death, and hell.
Pick one.
>>1264559
Outer darkness, lake of fire, weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, eternal torment.
Bible says enough.
It's a place to be avoided at all costs.
>>1264554
He isn't. People are fragile and dying from random accidents all of the time.
>>1264561
I don't have the energy to argue this a tenth time so I'll just link this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Criticism
>>1264561
I would pick one if any of this options were real.
>>1264550
>There's nowhere else to go.
Can't God make a new place? Couldn't God make the tainted repent of their ways instead of killing them? Couldn't God have held back the hands that killed his son?
Why does God make so many harmful decisions when he can do literally anything he wants by any method and result?
>>1264567
Yeah, all those things. But things like the divine comedy make it sound like god is hiring demons to man torture devices. That isnt what hell is. Hell is simply God leaving the people who dont want him.
>>1264573
> he doesn't know about game theory
what else would you except from modern autheism
>>1264550
> everyone who died was like totally a monster XD
We seriously supposed to believe in that?
>>1264550
Exodus 12:29
And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
>>1264586
Yes, yes, you're mimicking things you've seen smart people do without any understanding of the underlying concepts in an attempt to convert said smart people to your contrived belief.
Have you ever considered the fact that there is a potentially infinite number of possible beliefs a person could have thus rendering the entire concept of pascal's wager null? Or that any one of those potential beliefs can just say "Oh yeah well our version of hell is TWICE as bad as yours!" and thus render the concept meaningless?
>>1264570
And God remains unscathed.
>>1264586
what's this chart supposed to be? what are those random numbers?
>>1264550
>You were born dead, and unless you regain the life in you lost by your ancestors, you will be sorted out with the dead. Your unbelief will condemn you.
Just look at this blatant pretentiousness. Don't you have any shame?
>>1264444
Quads confirm Bible is useless.
Best example of Pascal's Wager right here.
>>1264573
There is only one true God.
Your chart is moot.
Pascal's Wager is lose-lose. Hiding behind it is complete fail.
>>1264624
>Implying I'm the one who brought up Pascal's wager in the first place
>>1264622
Pascal's wager is a meme
what if God sends you to hell for trying to apply game theory to religion instead of having true faith? what if he favors rational heathens to irrational believers? It's all stupid as hell desu
>>1264612
Yes. Like serial killer who remains unpunished for his numerous murders.
>>1264586
>he doesn't know pascal didn't intend it to be a serious argument.
>god won't be able to see through calculated faith.
So which interpretation of Christianity is the correct one, Christposter? Catholicism? Orthodoxy? Protestantism?
>>1264632
Ay man, I ain't complaining, ex-Muslim here; and a proud one too. I'm just saying the dude's obviously fell for the meme.
>>1264609
> potentially infinite number of possible beliefs a person could have thus rendering the entire concept of pascal's wager null
Are you retarded? You can calculate the expected value even for infinite number of games. Concept is still here just fine, not somehow rendered null.
>>1264643
Mormonism
>>1264650
Pascal's wager is effectively a zero-sum game where the more number of "games" (ie, beliefs) there are the less powerful any single belief is
Also
>ignoring the second part of the post
>>1264636
There is nothing bad at calculated faith. Being good at math isn't a sin, you know?
>>1264659
> ignoring the second part of the post
How can their hell be twice as bad than our worst hell ever?
>>1264586
>Let's believe in <religion> so <deity> won't send me to <eternal suffering> instead of genuinely agreeing with it, I'm so smart
>God would totally never chalk it up as a sin
>>1264656
>mormons
>christian
>>1264673
The same way people can just say "Oh yeah well infinity PLUS ONE"
In other words get two such people together and they'll fall into a mutual feedback loop of one continuously saying their version of hell is even worse than the one described a few moments ago.
>>1264682
>God would totally never chalk it up as a sin
Why would he? God is merciful after all.
>>1264693
>merciful
>sends you to boil alive for eternity
>>1264550
>And God held back that man's hand.
Actually, it is widely believed that the narrative concerning Isaac being SAVED is an addition from the fourth century BC, and that the original story had Isaac being slaughtered. This is strongly implied due to the genealogical snippet (verses 20-24) right after the sacrifice verses. First of all, the description of a rash of newborns placed right after the main story suggests the existence of some direct cause-effect connection. Second, in a sacrificial economy, such a numerous progeny could not have been conceived without the preceding payment in an appropriate "currency", and it is well-established that child sacrifice was common among Levantine tribes in the time period corresponding to Abraham. Lastly, the names of these newborns are not actual Hebrew names: the names of these newborns actually make a sentence to the effect of "somebody has been blown, slaughtered, put on the tabernacle, and burned"
There are other indications (mainly from the Yawhist/Elohist storylines) of Isaac's death, and it is likely that Isaac being saved was added as a story element in a time period when child sacrifice had become taboo.
>>1264700
>sends you to boil alive for eternity
He doesn't. It is a lie created by Satan.
>>1264693
Because the idea is literally about tricking God into not sending you to Hell. Pretty sure wanting to outwit God is vanity and blasphemy.
>>1264712
> Tricking God into not sending you to Hell
Nice way to prove that God literally sends people to hell, dude.
>>1264230
If there is a hell, does God condemn to eternal punishment those atheists who have done good in their lives? What about the peaceful followers of other religions? It's such a simple question and I've searched fucking everywhere for a decent answer that doesn't end in John 14:6.
>>1264731
It's what the theory says, if it's not real then it renders the theory moot.
I agree with you though, a literal eternity of suffering doesn't sound like something a merciful god would come up with.
>>1264736
Everyone who has ever lived has done evil, and the good men do doesn't cancel out that evil.
Also there will probably be alot of people who were atheists or followers of other religions in life in heaven, and alot of people who called themselves christians in hell.
>>1264574
You're not choosing life, and good, and God, and heaven.
>>1264736
Doesn't matter how peaceful or well-doing the unbelievers and atheists were, they'll go to Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ. There's that's your answer.
>>1264576
There's only two states of being. Alive and with God, and Dead and Separated from God.
There is nothing else.
>>1264584
Yes. Leaving them alone, and in the dark, and on fire, forever.
>>1264595
I find the truth easy to believe.
>>1264606
Random verses?
The pharaoh was killing all of the children of the Hebrews as population control.
>>1264618
Never. I'll never be ashamed of my Lord, the Word of God, or the gospel.
>>1264809
> Separated
> from omnipresent God
Wow, just wow. Read the Holy Book anon.
>>1264754
It's an interesting answer, but it seems to me like that view is only taken by the minority of Christians (I might be wrong about that).
>>1264768
I was reading an interview with Pope Francis who said “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience."
What gets me is that last bit, if unbelievers are destined for hell anyway, why would the Pope tell them to listen to their conscience? Surely it wouldn't matter?
>>1264634
Oh, is he?
Is he really?
Or is he alone, in the dark, and on fire, forever?
>>1264643
The one where Jesus is God, crucified to pay the sin debt of humanity, and rising from the dead on the third day.
>>1264809
Again, God is omnipotent. He can make more states of being. Why doesn't he? Does he enjoy death? Is it that he doesn't know better?
>>1264673
Hell is worse than hell, and continuously so.
>>1264704
Another Bart Ehrman victim.
Don't you get tired of believing liberal scholars who always lie to you?
>>1264586
>giving random weights
>implying that it only exists a couple dozens of religions
>implying that every religion is right in their concept of what their god finds proper or not
If you did this with all the religions, the numbers would get so huge that even a X000 difference would seem irrelevant.
>>1264708
He does. It's a lake of fire created for satan.
>>1264836
>It's an interesting answer, but it seems to me like that view is only taken by the minority of Christians (I might be wrong about that).
Speaking as a Christian it is. But that doesn't make it any less valid. Lots of people use Christianity (well, religion in generally really) to say that people they don't like God doesn't like and people they like God also likes.
>>1264846
>Why doesn't he?
He does. He created infinity states of being. There is world where you are immortal with your dreams coming true. There also is world of horrible death, murder and torture. God give everything the right, right to exist in reality in his infinity love.
>>1264736
Dead people doing good deeds are dead people.
Dead people go where dead people go.
All of their "righteousness" is as filthy rags to a holy God.
For example, let's say that I murder your mother, rape her corpse, steal $100 from her purse, and give $5 of that to a homeless man.
Did I do a good act in giving the homeless man $5?
>>1264834
God is where God wants to be; He is not a slave to any of His attributes.
That He can be everywhere does not mean that He must be everywhere, and He is not in hell.
>>1264840
He is in heaven because he believes in Jesus and that is the only requirement.
>>1264846
Omnipotence doesn't mean 'can do anything' it means all powerful.
There are certain things that do not posses the trait of being doable. Such as making a circle with four straight lines, or touching the number four, so on and so on. Making something other than life and death is one of them.
>>1264836
Yes, the pope is leading people to hell by focusing only on God's mercy and completely obliterating God's holiness, justice and righteousness.
The pope is leading people to hell because he wants people to go to hell.
>>1264882
> God is where God wants to be
And he wants to be with all his creation because God is love. Read the book. God is nice guy, not crazy torturer who would abandon people to burn in hell for an eternity after creating them.
>>1264846
You keep trying to change reality.
Why don't you just accept reality the way you found it?
>>1264857
Are you stupid?
>>1264883
So now he's not an uncaught serial killer, he's an honest to God, Holy Spirit filled born again Christian who's running around murdering people.
Care to name such a person?
>>1264821
Are you okay with God killing all the first-born in the land of Egypt?
>>1264836
>why would the Pope tell them to listen to their conscience? Surely it wouldn't matter?
Christians think that it would inevitably lead to Christianity because it's the true religion, and God's gunna step in and help make it work or something.
>>1264892
I have a profound knowledge of the Word of God.
I suggest you start reading it if you think God will not do what God said He would do.
Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
>>1264894
>asks the guy listening to Bart Erhman.
>>1264912
>taking the book of Revelations literally
>>1264912
These passages was inspired by Satan. God is good and would save people any chance given.
>>1264915
Woah.
That's a name I never expected to hear again.
>>1264905
Of course.
God made them. God took their children to Himself. God led His people out of captivity with His strong right hand, a lesson to the earth as to Who the living God really is.
>>1264902
> Care to name such a person?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Butt_Naked
>>1264918
Literal is the place to start, yes. Symbolically is the place to when literal does not work, and the symbols will be explained by the bible itself.
When God says He's going to hit the earth with 100 lbs. hailstones, He's going to hit the earth with 100 lbs. hailstones.
>>1264922
The entire bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.
You are inspired by Satan.
>>1264875
Are you telling me that the mere fact of being born already makes me worser than someone who murdered someone's mother and stole $100 from her purse? That's just insane and hilarious.
>Did I do a good act in giving the homeless man $5?
Yes.
>>1264931
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Butt_Naked
Since the war he has converted to Christianity and become a preacher.
Care to try again?
>>1264937
The parts about hell being real and our God being mean to people are satanic change to the original text. It is sad that people believe in such things. It isn't their fault for being tricked by The King of Lie, of course.
>>1264940
You lack wisdom, understanding, and a moral compass.
You murdered countless people's mothers. You.
You have stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars.
You.
You have committed every sin possible, and broken every single one of God's Laws in your effort to be like Him, which has utterly and completely failed.
And no, there was no good act involved in that.
>>1264926
Would you them be okay with God killing your son just because? Are you fucking insane?
>>1264950
What you are saying is a lie from the pit of hell.
>>1264954
Pharoah slaughtering the Hebrews was okay with you, if you don't see that the Egyptians getting their sons slaughtered wasn't justice.
The reason Moses was in a basket being floated down the river is because the pharaoh was committing genocide.
>There are people who think discussing religion on the internet is going to do anything
>>1264952
>You murdered countless people's mothers.
>You have stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars.
>You have committed every sin possible, and broken every single one of God's Laws in your effort to be like Him, which has utterly and completely failed.
Oh, did I?
>>1264955
>>1264954
>>1264952
>>1264950
>>1264937
"You're satan!"
"No YOU'RE SATAN!"
"Nooo, YOU'RE SATAN!!"
Religious arguments in a nutshell.
>>1264955
Hell doesn't exist. There is no reason for merciful God to torture his beloved creatures.
>>1264444
Congratulations then dumbass if you really read you would know how important the bible is and how much lit it has influenced
Frankly it's like not having read the Odyssey
Stay stupid then boi
>>1264970
Yes. Many times over.
All sin starts in the heart. Wishing a man dead, hating him for no reason, calling him a fool; all of those violate Thou Shalt Not Murder.
And breaking any one of God's 613 commandments is a violation of all of the Law.
>>1264966
Law of Talion isn't a very good policy when you're a god of mercy and kindness, much less when innocents have to pay for sins they did not commit.
>>1264941
> Care to try again?
Guy literally murdered children to eat their hearts and he will go to heaven because he become the preacher of Jesus. What other example do you need?
>>1264975
The man is unbalanced, and what he says is demonic. If you cannot tell that, your discernment is lacking.
>>1264977
You stand condemned already for your unbelief.
You stand at trial without excuse. Without defense. Without counsel.
God's Holiness, Justice and Righteousness will be on display at the Great White Throne Judgment; God's mercy was evident at Calvary.
>>1264966
>Pharoah slaughtering the Hebrews was okay with you, if you don't see that the Egyptians getting their sons slaughtered wasn't justice.
No, it was not, you brainwashed twat.
How can someone think that murdering innocent children is "just"? So you're making justice if you murder the child of someone who murdered yours? Children who never did nothing wrong?
>>1264991
God is the Lord of Hosts, and He led His people out of slavery with mighty power and the world trembled when the Israelis marched.
You keep saying He is merciful as though He is a bitch.
>>1264993
The example was supposed to be of a born again Holy Spirit filled Christian was murdering people as a serial killer.
Just one would be fine.
>>1265010
>His people
But, didn't he made the Egyptians too? Boy, he did a really bad job, didn't he?
>>1265004
I have the best defense possible, the God infinite wisdom, forgiveness and mercy. I need no excuse because I don't fear the God who is Love.
>>1265005
Exodus 1
Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, "Every son who is born you are to cast into the Nile, and every daughter you are to keep alive."
>>1265010
Then He is not merciful? And here was I thinking he said thou shalt not kill.
>>1265021
His Chosen People v demon worshiping sons of the devil.
And you're cheering for the devil.
>>1265017
> guy killed hundred of people
> become Christian
Now it doesn't matter that he killed them because it apparently only counts if you kill them as a Christian. What a joke.
>>1265030
John 3:18 [Full Chapter]
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
>>1265034
Is He not Just?
Is He not Righteous?
Is He not Holy?
>>1265036
>And you're cheering for the devil.
If I don't believe in a god, why would I believe in the devil?
>>1265039
All of his murders were forgiven at the cross.
All of your murders were forgiven at the cross.
I don't see the problem here.
>>1265046
Why cheer for the devil even if he's not real? He's a liar, and a thief, and a murderer.
Why cheer him on, to your own destruction?
He's more real than you, as he existed before you did. Maybe you'll bump into him there in the dark, on fire. Screaming.
Because you failed to accept God's free gift of salvation; you failed to believe the truth.
>>1265033
Why are you quoting this? My point is that the Pharaoh's action was evil, and so was God's.
>>1265043
If he goes against his own rules then of course he's not. Murdering innocent children, drowning most of the world and sending a kid to kill a champion of another tribe with only a rock and a slingshot doesn't seem very just or righteous.
>>1265055
You accuse God of evil because you are evil.
By God's Law, it's an eye for an eye. By God's Law, any man that kills any humans that God created will be killed.
You call God, and God's Law, evil.
You do your father's work; all he does is lie.
>>1265061
God never murdered anyone.
God made humanity.
The innocents killed go to live with God forever, in heaven.
They're better off than you are. Infinitely.
>>1265054
You do understand that your appeal doesn't mean anything to me? You're trying to accuse me of doing something that I have never done, and that is related to something I don't even believe in.
>>1265070
They did never ask for it and their deaths were certainly painful. If he wanted to take them to Heaven, why didn't he just make them ascend like Mary?
Again, all of this is considering he himself created the Commandments that he broke.
Man the divine dilemma sure was good wasn't it guys!
>>1265070
Everyone would go to heaven eventually. Even that anon. God wouldn't torture people, he isn't sadistic.
>>1265065
>By God's Law, it's an eye for an eye.
Pretty immoral actually. Needs some work.
>You call God, and God's Law, evil.
I do and would again.
>>1264346
I sometimes think like this, but know enough that God isn't a tyrant- but I think we sometimes forget that there are people who are even mentioned in God's word, who hate righteousness and good.
Which I for the life of me can't get myself to understand as true. Since truth itself is understood by way of the light.
When someones deeds are brought forth to the light, the shame of their mistakes, you would think would be enough for that person to finally realize how incorrect they were in their vain and arrogant judgement.
It's like having no idea you're doing more harm then good, only to see how you're doing more harm then good...
Are there really people who would not care? That they would tell the creator of all things, the God who has proven that goodness and righteousness which is a product of love, is the key to all progression, that unjust judgement and the evils do nothing more than stall and void the progression, are there people who would stare in the face of this merciful God and still reject Him?
Do people genuinely despise encouragement and uplifting and true progression? The brotherhood and comradery it produces?
I for the life of me can't imagine people like that, I can imagine people who are baited to be angry, who are deceived, but I can't imagine people who are just void of reason when it comes to the progression that can only take place by way of love.
Also it's worth considering that our behavior here, the message we contribute to, may effect the whole.
Because one thing you realize about God when reading his word....is that he won't hesitate to cut off a piece if it means saving the whole. Also that in the scenario of cutting off a piece, doesn't automatically translate as to eternal separation, but that through His forgiveness and His mercy, one can be given the grace and window to learn and become apart of the whole once again.
Regardless, fascinating things to ponder about and increasingly sad things to ponder about.
>>1264385
>If hell didn't "exist", how else would you persuade people into believing in your made-up fairytale?
But you're implying fear is catalyst for belief, which can only be implied if you aren't as informed as you think you are.
Progression that comes from love , love is what produces forgiveness and compassion which are just some of the doors that lead to progression, as opposed to the stalling and destruction that comes from evil is just plain truth. You take light to illuminate the deeds of both good and evil and the reactions they each produce on the human community, which is no lie, but plain facts....how can you not believe out of sheer appreciation of truth?
>>1265156
Only christians see God this way. It's no wonder that you can only see good in God when you basically turn your eyes away from his wicked parts. Do you think that other religions also don't see their gods as perfect, merciful and all that good stuff?
>>1265194
Are you implying that love, forgiveness, and compassion are things that can only be found in your religion? A little too pretentious, don't you think?
>>1265217
>turn your eyes away from his wicked parts.
That depends on what you classify as wicked on his part. You're assuming that the"alleged" (i say alleged, because i know there are many who dont believe), that the "alleged" creator of all things is on par with mankind, as if man somehow knows better or more...when we don't even know the entire story of our very physical surroundings. So how can we assume, that on this subject, we know anything close to the entirety?
Also something to consider is that even a responsible father by human standards, disciplines his children.
And how can you claim something to be wicked through and through, when the very message is about the pitfalls of the very wicked you're accusing of? That type of decision on your part can only come from your definition of what you believe to be true on the matter, which again, can potentially be a limited understanding.
But what it comes down to, is the dfference between perspectives- is that there are some who are not willing to judge anything as absolute when there is blatant room to know more. That's obviously an argument that can go both ways, toward believe in general, and belief that God is wicked and not a factor in over all correction among a people who in vain try to correct themselves. I could be wrong, but it takes a certain amount of humility, for some it's common sense I'm sure, but it takes a fair perspective to see man no different than a herd of fenced animals. After all, we are stuck on a floating rock in the middle of vast space, stuck on our exhibit so to speak, unable to leave and forced to get along with eachother...now who's to say there isn't a wise shepherd so to speak?
Also when you generalize all this down to a fine point for your/our judgement...would you let a disease or potential disease continue to produce among the body of mass? Do you offer remedy for correction? Do you sever the infection from the whole if it refuses correction for the sake of the whole?
>>1265302
>Also when you generalize all this down to a fine point for your/our judgement...would you let a disease or potential disease continue to produce among the body of mass? Do you offer remedy for correction? Do you sever the infection from the whole if it refuses correction for the sake of the whole?
Would you create the disease in the first place if you could choose to do or to not do so? It's strange that you would bring this point right after arguing that God's reasoning and decisions are beyond ours. I for one think that this kind of attitude is just plain escapism, you like to claim that God shows mercifulness, love and so on, but when you look at wicked things you recur to saying that God's supposed wickedness may not be bad because "mankind may not be on par with the creator".
>>1265251
That's what you want to me to imply. What I am actually implying is that the author of such behavior, the very elemental definition of such behavior and it's benefits, existed before any of us were born. They are laws to progression, laws no different than gravity itself, all of which were around before either of us were ever thought of or conceived.
They aren't man mad laws, but something available for man to grasp within his emotional spectrum...an offering of something that existed before hand, we can grasp the love and forgiveness and compassion and in doing so are awarded to witness their benefits.
But my point is that, through that truth and my appreciation for that truth, I believe God is the author of it all. Also that the fear of God, although not the only catalyst, but I can see how it can be catalyst for wisdom and truth in general. But fear is not the only reason to believe, or the only reason WHY people believe. Some can just appreciate the teachings.
But yeah, I know very well, that these are our options to choose from, that man did not invent love, but discover the benefits of love as pre-existing decisions that just so happen to translate into our physical coherency and benefit. Which I wouldn't be arrogant enough to claim as just "coincidence"..not that I'm implying that is what you are saying. Just in general, that's my belief, that the very nature of God, as Jesus taught, is love.
But we are in fact living in a realm of things to grasp, things that were made before us. Our conversations throughout history, since the beginning of it all, is all meant to bring us to a sense of discernment.
But the game itself, the mystery behind it all...I'm comfortable with accepting the fact that the creator knows exactly what He is doing. I have that faith. So, for me- God, Jesus Christ...I don't believe for a second are wicked, especially when you take heed to the broader context of their message and the benefits of their teachings.
>>1265450
That's why I personally believe, not just because I know that I'm not the center of it all and that something greater resides above my limited perspective and I should be "afraid" of that, but because I can appreciate the kindness, love, and mercy for my mistakes. And that despite what my pride wants, to have me label myself as the judge of all things and the all knowing, despite that desire of my pride....I'm okay with submitting to a higher understanding and a more accurate and polished will power. Even if it's not mine. Nothing I'd love more than to be assisted so that I would stop lying to myself by way of my limited perspective and lacking judgement which is a product of having pride.
>>1265371
Having a definition that God is the author of disease, is something you formed out of your own understandings and what you believe to be true. But that not only contradicts what is written, but it contradicts truth.
The disease is the product of living outside of His light, which is the very light that illuminates what is true. Having light bestowed on anything grants you awareness of it's definition, that's why lack of His knowledge and wisdom is synonymous with "being in the dark" relative to His word/scripture. Without the light to illuminate the darkness, one can't discern their very footing and path let alone the very things causing one to trip and stumble. So by being in the dark is to be ill-informed and void of understanding of truth- in general.
Now when God threatens to lift his presence off the people, he's lifting his light and letting the people roam around and stumble among their desire for wickedness. Letting them roam in the dark. Wickedness that you accuse Him of. When in understanding the whole context, he warns people first by way of a prophet or what have you, then proceeds to lift his presence and deliver them into the hands of their wickedness. To me that's not wickedness on God's part.
The disease is evil, man's willingness and desire to do the opposite of God's will.
But yeah, by calling good and righteousness "God's will", I know it sounds claustrophobic to many, as if we don't have a say in this, but the truth is that His will, is the very thing that creates refreshment and new beginnings for essentially eternity. Variation and the thrill of discovery is found in progression and progression is only experienced through, love, compassion, and forgiveness in times of stumbling...which are like laws in the sense gravity is a law. It's impossible to proceed after a stumble, if you can't forgive, otherwise you will remain down forever. All of this is synonymous witch God's/Jesus Christs characteristics.
>>1265450
>Which I wouldn't be arrogant enough to claim as just "coincidence"..
While I wouldn't consider "coincidence" to be the correct term here, where's the arrogance in that? There's no reason why love could not have been derived from nature itself. If anything arrogance is saying that your particular god was responsible to creating it.
>I have that faith. So, for me- God, Jesus Christ...I don't believe for a second are wicked,
That's exactly why "only christians see God this way".
>especially when you take heed to the broader context of their message and the benefits of their teachings.
With the right amount of cherry pick, you can find good messages and teachings anywhere. Not to mention that a lot of other religious and non-religious ideologies also have a lot of good principles and teachings, but I suppose that you will just say that these are also derived from God, people just don't know that.
Your positions make a lot of sense, but only if you assume that your god exist in the first place
>>1265521
I find it funny how whenever someone brings up this point, God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence suddenly seem irrelevant.
>>1265521
"You're wrong, because you don't know the TRUTH".
Thank you sir, that makes sense. I was silly in thinking that an omnipotent and omniscient being has something to do with the fact that the very thing he created would eventually become wicked.
>>1265525
>While I wouldn't consider "coincidence" to be the correct term here, where's the arrogance in that?
The definition of coincidence is a refusal of a connection. That something comes together without perceivable connection.
By trying to redefine the source or nature of that law that we're talking about, calling it a coincidence, or happy accident, in my opinion takes away from who it originally belonged to and who created it. I wouldn't be arrogant enough to claim that I...
(a.) don't know the source and by not knowing the source, make my definite claim that due to my lack of knowledge, it must belong to no one, or in this case no creator. Since if I don't know, that's the end of the story.
I wouldn't jump to a conclusion like that personally. To disrespect something as magnificent as a beneficial truth to the human race as a whole, I think it's just more than a coincidence....Because again, the very connections it does have to us are tangible- when a coincidence is defined as something that has no perceived connections. So to try and redefine this law as something like a coincidence, would take some arrogance in the individuals perspective.
It's like- "because I see no author, there must be none." How highly a person must think of themselves and their abilities to jump to that conclusion. Especially if tangible history has taught us anything, it's that we don't know everything. I know I'm kinda going off an a tangent, but self righteousness and pride can delude if not completely blind someone from seeing truth.
>>1265651
> in my opinion takes away from who it originally belonged to and who created it.
>who
Don't you think that your position, that is, claiming that God created it without even knowing if it's true, is also arrogance?
If you "don't know the source", you don't know the source and that's it. No other claim should be made afterwards. And please don't come to me saying that "you know that God made it" because of your truth and whatnot. It's takes much more arrogance to claim to know something no one else knows because they don't have faith like you.
>>1265596
You're argument is that it would be better to not allow a creation to live among the potential of evil to begin with.
I share those sentiments, but at the same time, we're here and among such things regardlesss. But at the same time we are given the blueprint to avoid suffering all together. As if it's left up to us perform. Plus what keeps me content, is that again, there probably is more to this than what we understand on the surface. When the word of God claims that he will strengthen you and lift you up, I wouldn't take that lightly or as a fluff. That's just my opinion though. But yeah, I'm pretty confident there's something in this whole experience that hasn't been revealed to us. I think that's obvious, the cryptic element though...I don't understand it, the reason for the mystery.
But I know the benefit of love and forgiveness. I know nothing can progress without love first, that's the "truth" I was trying to highlight, that and the fact just because we're left to be responsible for ourselves...that isn't necessarily "wicked" or "evil." It's more of a testament that this can be viewed as a test from a certain perspective. But yeah, I don't see that as evil. Especially since were taught how to avoid wickedness and evil all together.
I think that's the point I was trying to get to throughout this discussion, I say discussion, cause we aren't arguing here. But yeah, thanks for talking with me you guys I seriously appreciate it.
>>1265716
If I came across as proud that I had what I thought was a greater answer, yes- but arrogance in giving credit to something else other than myself? No.
I mean I'm not taking credit for it, I'm just trying to illustrate the point that there is more that we don't know, than what we do know. But bare with me for one more second- God's light, as described throughout that book, again, I don't think it's a coincidence that it's synonymous with illuminating the difficulties and how to avoid the difficulties and sufferings. That living outside of love, which I know sounds lame, but living outside of that, and living in frustration, bitterness, and hatred, I don't think it's a coincidence that is synonymous with living "in the dark and without light." Given the fact that there is no progression in such a lifestyle. There's only destruction and a complete reversal in over all direction.
>>1264561
no no my friend, the options are:
It's "Are you a rational being?"
So far, the answer is "no".
Option 1: Thor, Valhalla, everlasting glory
Option 2: Niflheim, and evil, and death, and eternal freezing.
Pick one.
Why do you not join the Norse paganism? You have infinite to lose.
>>1264230
Well you can't really talk about something being justified or not if you are talking about God. God is the one who sets the rules, if he breaks his own rules then the rules have been changed to a new set.
>>1264952
>Religious people
>>1264230
If we x annot sine eternally then we cannot be punished eternally.
>>1264230
>Hell is 24/7 BDSM
I sure hope it does.
>>1264736
1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”
Mind you he was talking about David, a man truly after God's heart. But you also have Paul, who murdered Christians but once he saw the truth he let go of his hate and condemnation. There must have been something deep in Paul that was worth reaching out to. Not to say that everyone is either Paul or David, but the point is that there was something in them that could appreciate truth and exercise gratitude for that truth.
But I guess there are people so filled with pride, that even if God were to prove Himself, they would just continue to ask Him to prove himself, out of constant fear that they must be getting tricked or lied to or something.
Plus some people have so little self esteem that I think giving credit or submitting to a higher will is considered weak and foolish to them, they cant afford to give credit to the idea of a broader intelligence because they are under the impression it takes away from their personal value.
Now for some, God's warning about the pitfalls of evil, and Jesus' teachings that focus on the importance of love and forgiveness toward your brother is just blatantly obvious and easy to understand, its not difficult for them to believe. So if those things are found in someone, the love and forgiveness for your brother, Jesus is essentially found in you. A true good-hearted person though, I think these are people who are not easily offended. People who aren't so quick to play the victim out of some fear that they might lose some personal value or will be quick to assume their ego is somehow being attacked. A true good-hearted content person is just not easily offended. So if they dont believe initially, yet find out God and Jesus are real, I can't imagine them being upset, ever.
>>1267452
>But I guess there are people so filled with pride, that even if God were to prove Himself, they would just continue to ask Him to prove himself, out of constant fear that they must be getting tricked or lied to or something.
That would be literally insanity, it takes infinite effort to go against something that is proved to be true or even that has strong evidence supporting it. God does not enter in any of these two cases, though.
>>1264230
the only way you will go to hell is to deny Jesus
going to hell is a choice
>>1267304
>Hell is 24/7 BDSM, Rock and Booze.
YES PLEASE.
>>1264230
Only the eternal recurrence is eternal and just. The rest is folly, superstition, ignorance, or ressentiment, especially "eternal hellfire" -- ebbs to the great and beautiful flow of life.
>>1268478
>yfw its this sort of BDSM and the booze is boiling excrement
>>1265078
That you do things in ignorance does not mean that you do not do them.
And ignorance of the law is no excuse anywhere, much less before God.
>>1265082
Mary died.
>>1265089
Most people choose hell. You, for instance.
>>1265217
You are wicked.
God is holy.
>>1265992
Because I know the living God, and I know that Thor is just Tammuz deified by pagans, Odin being his father, Nimrod, also deified by pagans.
>>1268478
It's nonstop darkness, solitary, and fire.
>>1269530
>And ignorance of the law is no excuse anywhere
That's only true if the law exists in the first place. I don't see how you could claim that it is indeed a sin if you can't even prove the veracity of your law or even the very existence of your god.
>>1269538
>You are wicked.
Rude!
>God is holy.
That's open to discussion.
>>1269555
Law is codified in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy.
>>1269561
Allow me to rephrase.
Between you and God, one of you for sure is wicked and one of you for sure is holy.
>>1264586
>Catholicism
>Bad Deeds
>98
spotted the fedora
also,
>assuming that the expected likelihood of each of those belief systems is for some reason equal.
wew lad
>>1269566
False dichotomy
>>1269570
It's not my law.
It's God's Law. It's the Law you have to live by to be like God.
Discussion is over.
>>1269589
Literally impossible. There is only one holy being, God, and every human is wicked.
>>1264933
>it's literal until proven wrong
>then it's suddenly """""""symbolic"""""""
>>1269620
>It's X's Law. It's the Law you have to live by to be like X.
Why aren't you following X's law? He has one too, you know? And if you don't follow it, Y will happen.
>>1269624
You don't know nor can prove neither of these statements.
>>1269646
Symbolic uses symbols.
Metaphoric uses metaphors.
Parabolic uses parables.
It's pretty simple.
>>1269647
I already know that following God's Law is impossible unless one is God.
>>1269659
They're both definitions.
Holy God.
Total depravity of mankind.
>>1269574
There is nothing that indicates they're not
>>1264561
Pascal's wager is flawed. It assumes believing to save your own ass is the same as believing because you believe.
And it assumes there are two options, either there is or isn't a god, instead of the thousands of options.
There could be no gods, or there could be an Abrahamic God, the ancient pantheons could exist, etcetera.
>>1269722
That's not Pascal's Wager.
That's Jesus' offer.
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Pascal's Wager is a lose-lose situation; God is not mocked. He reads the hearts of men.
>>1269756
I reject god because i think he's a bit of a cunt. I don't care about any greater plans he might have, with the suffering we all experience on this earth you'd have to be a fool to worship your own tormentor.
>>1269770
The god of your imagination is a kind of a cunt.
The actual God who really exists is pretty awesome.
>>1269779
The god of your imagination is pretty awesome.
>>1264358
bruh...
>>1264952
If i did, he didn't stop me, so im part of "his" plan.
This threads always show me that, even tough i am agnostic, wich is a memetier believe, im atleast not a batshit insane religious nutjob.
>>1269815
Real God is even better than I can imagine Him. But from the peek I've gotten?
Buckle up. This is gonna be one hellova ride!
>>1269935
Says every serial killer ever.
God created you as a free will moral agent, responsible for his own choices.
In order that you could choose to love and worship God, God gives you the opportunity to reject Him as well, and the power to do so.
God will not let you slide. He won't overwhelm you, either, unless you ask for it.
I suggest asking for it.
>>1269956
Yes, that's the appeal of ignorance. You get to pretend you're above the fray and morally superior to both groups without having to do anything.
>>1264230
We aren't all given a chance. A lot of people never even get to hear about Christianity and even those that do have no way to distinguish it from other religions. For that matter most of the people who are Christian believe a bunch of different things which may or may not get them sent to hill. The first step to justifying hell would be 100% consensus that it existed and a very clear list of what we have to do not to go there. The Christians can't even get those things straight amongst themselves.
>>1269973
>appeal to emotion
>>1269956
These threads show me that idiots who bother trying to "debate" with them are nearly just as stupid. At some point you have to realize that communication is impossible and it's a waste of time.
>>1269981
I did something.I argued alot in this debatts, until i saw that nobody ever has a factual reaseon for something.
I know this sounds ignorant, but you are all just wasting your time.
>taking metaphysical nonsense seriously
I
>>1264230
No, I've only been told of such a thing by people who hate other people and certain behaviors or people who blindly follow a book that's been more revised than a celebrity's wikipedia page.
I haven't once been informed of a fiery eternal hell from anyone who could create such a thing nor have I seen any proof whatsoever so why should I believe in this concept?
>>1264230
No. Things that burn eventually decay to carbon or other base elements. Things can't burn eternally. On top of other obvious issues.
>>1264346
Well hello there reddit
>>1264230
I see these Kinds of things and it gives me one reason to hate the modern world
