Why does Nietzsche see self-denial as undesirable? Is not self-denial the root of love? Unless "love" is just used in the sense of "I sure love coffee!" à la Stirner?
>>1263584
> Is not self-denial the root of love?
No, rather it is precisely the opposite.
Love is very much a selfish and sensual feeling. To deny love is to deny yourself and vice versa.
>>1263613
So if you jump on a grenade out of love for your fellow soldiers, you are sacrificing the great majority of your life for nothing but an instant of sensual gratification?
>>1263623
Yes, basically.
>for nothing but an instant of sensual gratification?
Do not underestimate the all-encompassing power of fleeting sensual gratification.
>>1263638
I seriously doubt the endorphins are as strong as you're suggesting.
>>1263623
How the fuck am I denying myself in your situation? I love my comrades. I love them so much, in fact, that I am willing to sacrifice myself for them. SACRIFICE, not deny. I am doing it for MY love, there is absolutely not a single thing I am denying in this situation. If I was to deny myself, I would not jump on the grenade, then spend the next 60 years of my life telling myself I didn't love every single man in that platoon.
>>1263623
dumb nigger
>>1263679
You are denying your will to life
>>1263685
And you are denying the greatest act of love one man can do for another.
>>1263650
I'm more talking about pure romanticism rather than any biological imperitive. You essentially romanticize and hype certain aspects of life up for yourself until you're so into it you wouldn't hesitate to die for it.
Comrades in arms, like romantic partners, are definitely one of these aspects of life that gets this kind of romanticism. Culture also helps contribute to it.
>>1263689
How?
I am saying it is a noble thing, and it is noble because of the self-denial involved, you put yourself last.
>>1263685
Overcoming your own instincts out of sheer will is the exact opposite of life-denying.
>>1263699
You put your life last so that you can put YOUR love first.
>>1263584
I dunno woman, self-denial is pretty fucking disgusting.
>>1263685
>>1263584
>>1263699
You just don't get anything about Jesus right, do you.
It's like an allergy to the truth.
>>1263709
This.
If I choose to throw myself on that grenade, it is for my love for my buddies. I thank God it did not come to that, but it was not back of mind.
>>1263696
So they just jump on the grenade because they want their life to be like a book or movie? Do you think this impulse drives all actions of sacrifice, in all degrees, or just this one?
>>1263701
Then asceticism isn't life-denying, right?
>>1263709
That's right, you deny yourself for their sake.
>>1263748
No, I think books and movies contain these kinds of themes because humans naturally romanticize them rather than the reverse. Like 10,000 years ago I'm sure some caveman took a spear to the chest for his cave-buddy, nothing has changed but rather we now just have a level of society that can reflect such feelings in art, which then help perpetuate values.
>Do you think this impulse drives all actions of sacrifice, in all degrees, or just this one?
No, there's more base sacrifice like sacrifice in the name of love such as this which would be driven by such impulses. But then you have things like going off sweets for lent which is more driven by a feeling of obligation rather than a feeling that it's what you totally want to do.
>>1263777
I think maybe a simpler explanation would just be you care about your friends more than you care about yourself.
> But then you have things like going off sweets for lent which is more driven by a feeling of obligation rather than a feeling that it's what you totally want to do.
Pretty much no one follows Lent out of obligation, if they don't want to, they just won't follow it. Catholic Lent is a mere token of serious Lent (like in Orthodoxy).
>>1263752
It depends. Moulding your lifestyle to what you want to do even in resistence to urges (for instance lifting heavy things and putting them back down to get jacked) isn't exactly life-denying. You're ultimately taking control of your life to use it for what you want.
Where asceticism falls short of it is you're just making yourself suffer for the sake of making yourself suffer. Rather than suffering with the long term goal of becoming a better person by overcoming it with asceticism there is nothing to be overcome, this is simply your life now and the fact that it sucks is totally expected.
>>1263786
That's not really an explanation, that's just a statement of the self-evident without wondering why that would be the case.
> Catholic Lent is a mere token of serious Lent (like in Orthodoxy).
I know, I live in a Catholic country so I'm speaking from that perspective.
>>1263810
Well you must understand it's not the same for us. Catholics made violation of various fast days a sin you had to confess to (and which you could cover with indulges, as with the butter tower, which was financed by people buying certificates allowing them to eat butter during Lent). In Orthodoxy, fasts are much,much more strict, but they were always a discipline, not something you confess if you break, although the no eating from midnight to communion is required to partake.
>>1263623
imagine if you let everyone die so you could live. how awesome would that feel? have fun dealing with that
>>1263863
Well if you were a serious moral nihilist, probably not that bad.
>>1263848
Maybe one day you'll realize that all sin was forgiven at Calvary.
>>1263874
>Nietzsche
>Serious moral nihilist
Constantine, I've got to know, how did you make your navel transparent?
>>1263623
If you jump on a grenade it's only because you feel the urge to do so. You feel this deeply unpleasant tension which has to be calmed. If it won't be, you'll experience all kind of disturbing phenomena like guilt, despair etc. The will has nothing to do with it. It's just another purely egoistic behavior to reduce unpleasantness. Of course this act can lead to greater deal of pain and unpleasantness, but it does not matter, it's automatic not rational.
>>1264092
Your navel. The belly button area. It has to be transparent, because your post and counter post clearly shows you can see. And with your head that far up your ass, I don't get how you'd be able to see anything without a transparent navel.
>>1264092
>Nietzsche through morality was just a matter of taste
Not really, Nietzsche had a vision of positive ethics.
Whilst he heavily criticized morality it's not as simple as
>Do what you want lol
>>1263584
He doesn't see self-denial as undesirable, so the premise behind your question is just wrong.
>>1264098
Yeah it was. His moral instruction was to make your own morals.
>>1264119
And he had a vision of what kind of morals you should consider, it wasn't exactly telling you to just make it up as you go along.
No, self-denial is not the root of all love. What the hell is wrong with you? Genuine, healthy love should result in both parties being more capable of fulfilling themselves in the process.
>>1264119
It must be sad for Nietzsche, who was so obsessed with good readers and who his readers would be, to have so many people who have absolutely no idea how to read him.
>>1264127
Yeah, Cesare Borgia's morals.
>>1264092
>You jump on a grenade because of values. You value the lives of your comrades above your own.
Actually, psychologically speaking, your values can't really play much of a role in a split-second decision like that.
>>1264134
Actually, his ideal was more akin to Goethe.
>>1264134
Not even, more like Goethe's morals. And even then a little more nuanced than that.
>>1263685
There is no will to life, only will to power. Power comes in many forms, but it comes down to satisfying ourselves. Jumping on a grenade to protect someone you care about is morally satisfying or at the very least desirous, there is no denial in that act.
>>1264092
>You jump on a grenade because of values. You value the lives of your comrades above your own.
If it makes you feel good to belive in such silliness than good for you.
>>1264137
That would be instinct, but our instincts can be influenced by our values over time.
>>1263584
>Why does Nietzsche see self-denial as undesirable? Is not self-denial the root of love? Unless "love" is just used in the sense of "I sure love coffee!" à la Stirner?
I hope, for your sake, that you are merely a troll.
>>1264185
lol this is like basically the entire point of the genealogy of morals
https://cafephilos.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/is-it-possible-to-love-god/
