Literally what the fuck was he thinking?
Carthajews was to greedy to support him with the fleet to transport fleet.
>>1250973
The gauls and romans want to kill us, let's dupe them going around and swinging further deeper in the boot
Why didn't they just drop him at Italy?
Had the Romans already achieved naval superiority by then?
all of it
>>1250973
Carhtage was shit at navy
Carthage used war elephants, rekt ass on land
Hannibal realizes he can't ship elephants or his people without scipio fucking his shit up
Goes around half of europe
Gets to alps
Elephants not built for mountains
Elephants are kill
Hannibal is fucked
Naval invaision from rome
Carthagenians get enslaved and land gets salted
Such is life in carthage
Spain was still rome retard, he tore that shit up like your mother's pussy. Roman niggers deserved it for destroying greece
OVER THE ALPS PERHAPS
>>1252567
PERHAPS HE SHALL BRING AN ARMY OF ELEPHANTS WITH HIM!
>autism blocks infantry tactics
A better question is what the fuck Rome was thinking.
>>1250994
>us
What part of Carthage are you coming from?
he was under the impression romans can be negotiated with, like any other enemy, apply common sense
>defeat their armies
>plunder Italy
>threaten numerous cities
>they must accept defeat and accept our demands
but they were romans whose goal was to destroy carthage at all costs
>>1252843
People tend to see Rome at the time as a unified state which it was not. Rome was the first of many cities in Italy, many of which recognized its supremacy and deferred to its judgement and gave tribute.
Hannibal's goal was to defeat and embarrass Rome on its own territory to prove that it was no longer top dog in order which would provoke the other cities to rise up against Rome and side with Carthage, which would also have the bonus of solving the logistical and manpower problems caused by fielding an army on enemy territory without support.
Hannibal failed to get any large number of cities to side with him (a few did) and thus his Italian campaign devolved into a quagmire when Fabius employed is famed strategy of delaying and harassing his army without any pitched battles. Basically Hannibal won all military aspects but failed the political objectives of dividing and marginalizing Rome and reducing it to one of many Italian city states.
>>1254020
* in order to provoke
>>1250987
Carthaginians were Semites, thus Tel Aviv is the true sucessor to Carthage.
DUDE ELEPHANTS LMAO
>>1252843
There's no common sense involved in surrendering to an isolated army that keeps bleeding men and has all external support blocked, all while being able to attack the enemy home. There's not much common sense in expecting tribes bound not only by alliance, but also extremely proficuous trade and defense treaties to just switch sides towards a faction that will leave after winning and create a power vacuum for Epirus and the gauls to exploit freely. There's a reason pretty much no italics switched sides, it was a fucking bad deal. For all his military and even administrative skill, Hannibal was a very mediocre politician.
>>1252831
Tunis
>>1252637
>what the fuck Rome was thinking
What would you have them do? Hannibal's cavalry was twice as numerous as Rome's.
>>1254146
That could have easily been dealt with. Main problem was when the cavalry was being attacked by Carthaginian cavalry, the nearby infantry didn't even support. They only focused on keeping the center safe. Another part is that the consuls are leading the cavalry instead of commanding in the center or rear. One of them died right at the start of the battle.
If you look at it in a larger view, the whole battle was retarded. Fabius already told everyone to hold their shit down and let Hannibal starve. But Romans, Varro in particular, were all "MUH HONOR".
>>1252831
The Roman colony
>>1254146
Keep reserves for a start.
Overconfidence is a killer
>>1251108
What did he mean by this?
>>1252584
HALF HIS ARMY WILL DIE OF ATTRITION, THE OTHER HALF WILL DESERT!
>>1250973
I thought the crossing of the Alps actually worked and Hannibal got Rome really worried.
>Lose
>Gather new army
>Lose again
>Gather new even bigger army
>Lose again
What the fuck were the Romans thinking?
>>1252637
>that pic
How did the romans manage to fuck up that badly?
>>1257050
That superior manpower would ultimatelly prevail.
As it did.
>>1251108
t. Aristotle Barbossa
>>1257050
The Carthaginians thought the same thing and that is why they lost. Rome was a city state that was at perpetual war with her neighboring city states since the founding of the city, to Romans, war was perpetual and only ended when the opposing side was completely eliminated as a threat forever. Carthage was fighting with the idea that Rome was like other people like the Greeks who would come to some sort of terms, Rome was of the mindset to utter destroy or be utterly destroyed should they lose.
>>1257066
Calvary on the flanks with both commanders got taken out early in the battle, the infantry with no orders coming from a higher command simply did as they were trained and advanced along with everyone else
>>1257050
The best part is that they also sent armies to other theatres while Hannibal was stomping around Italy.
The Romans were ridiculously tencaious, thinking not if they would win but instead when. It helped that their society was much more geared for war than the Carthaginians and they were politically pragmatic, giving multiple consulships to Marcellus and Fabius and then making based Scipio proconsul where under normal circumstances such a position would never have been given to someone so young.
>>1250973
to fuck the Romans
he almost did it the crazy bastard
>>1251108
this desu
Does anyone know what kind of effect the ending of the Macedon War had on the Punic Wars? It kind of seems like Rome was getting their butt kicked while they were distracted but once they could focus they started winning
>>1257050
That eventually it'd work
Hint: it did
>>1257081
Also, based on their past experience with battles with Hannibal (especially Trebia), where the center managed to push back or overwhelm the opponent's, they focused so much on their center. That's where Hannibal took advantage. They really aren't that much to blame for adapting, it's just that Hannibal was smart enough to know not to use the same tactic.
But they should have listened to Fabius.
Short history: the land known as iberia had the best naval capacity in europe, africa and middle east. That strait is the most sacred thing in the bible. Because it was the farthest port from the phillistines from where all riches entered. Analyzes has showed that the oldest stones used by the romans in roads do not trace to roman quarries but iberian. Some speculaters say when jesus drew his cross he did it out of spite because it conveyed money. Italic peninsula and carthage, north to south...iberia and phillistines west to east. Rome had built a civilization pirating. And damaging trade and information just as manesseh had done to the kingdoms of Israel.
A guy from carthage realizes that he can take power from rome because he has the iberian peninsulas loyalty due to shared hsitory language and religious rites....since roam at the crossroads was doing nothing but stealing their hard work and reselling the pirated goods. Not only that but it was waging wars in the north damaging information as well and selling out their people. He did it for commerce because the biblical history is that the kingdom that found success was the kingdom that had both ports within its boundaries..one port traded with africa and unknown world the other with persia arabs and eastern lands. They all hated rome because it was usurping history, trade, culture and relabeling it and making fun of them...the power of rome was the tongue and the vast majority of indo european languages we speak today was edited by rome. The slavs knew this schism and instead chose to go with a different school...
>>1261267
They took over tuareg commerce by sea. And so the story of the the eurocentric western civilization begins.
If you notice the old testament. They blessed the goods but not the person or lands. The blessing were to their own kind and history. If you read the new testament they bless the people and the lands.
Hannibal knew what he was doing but he was too worried protecting the initial points of the commerce because it meant money and money meant more supplies and soldiers. However he left carthage open. The capital city. Thinking the capture of carthage would not deregulate their system. But ease and even the workload by surrounding it.
>>1254729
>>1254760
>>1254729
>>1252637
The commander didn't want to risk getting in an extended fight with a cav superior carthage that also happend to have Hannibal leading them. They also assumed their infantry was superior to Carthaginian mercenaries in quality and number and thus they could break the thin Carthaginian lines easily. The river prevented the Romans from maneuvering their infantry.
>>1257354
I read that the prices of land didnt even go up when hannibal entered italy. Some pieces which were occupied were still sold at the normal price despite being... well, occupied. They even reinforced garrisons in other cities instead of Rome.
Those romans...
>>1261496
desu they could've at least put some form of infantry screening force in the rear to stop cav.
>>1251098
in between >elephants are kill and >Hannibal is fucked, you skipped the part where Hannibal fucking rekt the Romans in battle after battle and won some of the greatest military victories of all time at Lake Trasimene and Cannae. You also skipped the part where Syracuse, Capua and several southern Italian cities defected from the Romans.
>>1261602
My heart breaks for archimedes
>>1250973
>thinking
According to the (((history channel))) he was a nigger, so...
>>1261563
Why would they? It is only until very recent history that the life of the average person would change drastically should another power take over. With the cost of goods locked in a universal currency system based on precious metals, your typical person would care more about when the new guy wanted his taxes more than who he was paying them to.
>>1254729
You can't armchair general a ancient society with a 21st century mindset and the luxury of hindsight. Roman politics and the military where quite literally one in the same with any successful politicians needed some sort of military credentials to give him legitimacy. Also in the pre-social war context, Rome hiding behind her walls would be seen as cowardice and the allied cities would be more keen to defect if Rome was seen as unwilling to respond to a foreign conqueror roaming freely in the Italian countryside
>>1254032
or the berber people?
Its shows that even the best people can be raped by munchkins
>>1261677
>Roman politics and the military where quite literally one in the same with any successful politicians needed some sort of military credentials to give him legitimacy.
Fabius won battles as a consul, given a triumph after making snowniggers scram. He was old enough and experienced. Why would he be placed as dictator?
>Rome hiding behind her walls would be seen as cowardice and the allied cities would be more keen to defect if Rome was seen as unwilling to respond to a foreign conqueror roaming freely in the Italian countryside
What is the First Macedonian War?
>>1254020
this
>>1250973
Dude elephants lmao
>>1261602
The funny thing is, when you lose the war, it doesn't really matter how well you did.
>>1251098
>Carhtage was shit at navy
Is this bait?
>>1265308
>Fabius won battles as a consul, given a triumph after making snowniggers scram. He was old enough and experienced. Why would he be placed as dictator?
Doesn't change the fact that his strategy was wildly unpopular and thus abandoned when his dictatorship ended
>What is the First Macedonian War?
Hannibal was more of a threat than Greeks at the time, and Rome did get back to conquering Greece once their business with Carthage had ended
>be me
>3 days a go
>make shitty Carthage thread
>see it still kicking with actual discussion
>mfw
>>1265626
it mattered, though moreso to Rome as the heavy losses it took and the need to recruit more men to the military put some strain on their society. also the defection of some cities in southern italy to the carthaginians had repercussions for those cities in the aftermath of the war.
But yeah, you're right. Hannibal's victories ultimately did not do much for Carthage. I'd say the big turning point was Metaurus from a tactical perspective, but from a strategic perspective Carthage was fucked from the get go. Rome had so much manpower that it could afford to fight in several theaters at once and lose several major battles disastrously and still bounce back and win.
>>1265631
No, it's actually true. They lost nearly every naval battle they fought during the First Punic War once Romans started employing boarding tactics. By the second Punic War, Rome had nearly full control over the Mediterranean and Carthaginian naval efforts were mostly aimed at transporting fresh troops to Hannibal covertly when possible.
>>1251098
Did they not know about the geography of the Alps region or did they just lack the foresight to realise elephants are going to be pretty shit in the mountains?
>>1251108
Hardly, greece won the cultural war.
>>1252637
>>1266265
More like cvcked
>>1257050
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eowPka21BNc
>>1254786
I think he's saying that your mothers pussy is torn up
Were elephants really that rellevant? Like, theyre animals after all and I think a better cavalry would be always better than a number of elephants.
>>1267315
Carthage and the Middle East were babby tier elephant fighters really. It wasn't like in South/Southeast Asia where the close confines of jungles made cavalry near useless and elephants terrifying.
Also Med-peeps do not use elephants like the Asians did. In Asia each elephant has like 10 infantry bodyguards guarding it. In the Med, they just used them in separate units like cavalry.
>>1267315
Well they were intimidating and if kept from being spooked and rampaging they could obliterate battle lines.
But they weren't given the chance because they could wrecked
>>1267335
Cite
>>1267348
The Arthashastra talks about battle arrays extensively.
>https://archive.org/stream/Arthasastra_English_Translation/Arthashastra_of_Chanakya_-_English_djvu.txt
>>1250973
Brute forcing his way into history books.
>>1267335
Carthagan elephants were not the huge African and Indian elephants of today, but an extinct and much smaller species native to Tunisia.
>>1267242
such an amazing show.
