Let's assume that god exists. Why should we assume that he is good and not evil?
There's no reason that a good god would be any more likely than evil god.
Okay.
>>1237273
For what reason would an evil god create the universe?
>>1237283
Perhaps he isn't abstractly perfect and finds pleasure in subjecting sentient beings to endless suffering?
>>1237291
>Perhaps he isn't abstractly perfect
So you are proposing he is flawed, limited in some way?
>finds pleasure in subjecting sentient beings to endless suffering?
So he acts in the pursuit of pleasure?
God is beyond good and evil.
>>1237273
"Evil" is a subjective term to define whatever it is which is personally abhorrent. Humans can be "evil", acts can be "evil", abstract, metaphysical beings can be "evil". If you want to call God "evil" for the events attributed to him, that's within your right. Isaiah 45:7 can be arguably interpreted "God creates all good and evil" or "prosperity and calamity" or "light and darkness".
What's in a word? Generally what's in a word is what the person who expresses it envisions and feels. I have no personal issue with someone who says "God has done evil things", but those things were not evil for the sake of evil, but evil from observation of the way those events affected the immediate observers.
Ultimately, believers in God attribute all creation to God, and that's decidedly "not evil". Doing with it, for "reasons" doesn't "need to be considered evil", but could be. I guess now I'm talking in circles, but to me it makes sense.
>>1237283
He was bored/lonely/felt egotistical, and created an environment of less powerful beings to play with for his own amusement?
I think a more interesting question is why would a GOOD God create a universe?
>>1237304
Beyond Good and Evil is pretty godlike.
I think its important to consider that there exists, along the concept of deity, the concept of "soul". This physical existence, with it suffering and death, are not the "end", indeed, if anything (considering lack of consideration of reincarnation) it is a "beginning". This latter "existence" in "soul form" is considered "eternal", e.g. "eternal soul", so what happens here and now can be considered quite incidental in the larger picture.
Now if you don't believe in all that, if this is all there is, if nothing happens after you die, if the events that happen on this planet in this form are truly the gauge of "good and evil", but if you still believe or understood "God", then yeh, I'd imagine he did seem pretty evil at times. That, however, is not the correct, for incompleteness, ideology.
>>1237313
Again, your Evil god lacks for something, and acts in pursuit of a goal outside of the universe (his own amusement). If he is an entity worthy of being called God, where does this lack come from, and why cannot he simply create amusement?
>I think a more interesting question is why would a GOOD God create a universe?
I agree, but I think both questions point back to the same answer, both about the nature of God, and the nature of Good.
>>1237323
>I agree, but I think both questions point back to the same answer, both about the nature of God, and the nature of Good.
If we define "good" as sacrificing of the self for others, and "evil" as sacrificing of others for the self, it's somewhat difficult to apply either concept to God. If he's truly the beginning and end, has no peers, and created everything, did he do it for the "others" he created, or for some personal purpose? If he created them for a personal purpose, then it's difficult to say he's truly evil in any case, because he sacrifices nothing that he hasn't created wholesale himself. But how can creation of the other beings truly be an act of altruism either? He has not "helped" anyone already existing, just made more beings.
>>1237310
I think I understand what you're saying. But from my understanding, darkness would be empty without evil to occupy it. Darkness is the environment, evil is the action that can only take place in said environment. But without evil, the darkness would be empty. I'll explain further down.
The over all arena where both good and evil exist would have to be some sort of middle ground. Evil can't exist in the light, if I remember a certain proverb or parable correctly, all comes to be seen in the light and evil itself will see it's own shame and be disgusted since the light reveals all, which is why I belive it's written that evil can't stand the light. The light is the truth. Nothing can hide from it, which is a testament to the linear aspect of single truth, which is exactly how light acts.
Now as for God being evil, that to me sounds like fear and paranoia, or just some random speculation. Like I don't see the connection since evil can't reside in the truth, since un-corrupted truth is light.
Basically the discussion is about something that can't exist within the other....As I see it anyway...
>>1237283
For what reason would a perfect god create a universe?
>>1237338
Love.
>>1237273
Define good
Define evil
>>1237334
That seems like an insufficient definition of good then.
Suppose a good man was admitted into paradise. There, he would be unable to sacrifice himself for others, because others would have no need for his sacrifice. Would that mean he is no longer a good man?
Similarly, if a man was stranded on a deserted Island, would he be neither good nor evil, simply because he's alone?
>>1237346
>Similarly, if a man was stranded on a deserted Island, would he be neither good nor evil, simply because he's alone?
Kind of? I mean, who can you be good or evil toward without any interaction?
>>1237336
Well, it seems to me in this argument you've only thrown out a bunch of mixed concepts, supplanting terms where it's most convenient for your argument. You use "light" interchangeably with "good" but then darkness is just kinda "this other" which may or may not be some equivalent of the opposite of light or some other something. An appropriate allegory for "evil can't exist in the light" would, by sense, seem to imply "light v darkness" is good v evil.
In this, however, we're not arguing "God" but abstract concepts of "good and evil". God is not this duality, but God is all these things, "Alpha and Omega". In the darkness there was God and God created light, and God thought light was pretty keen so he kept the whole ball rolling. I think the conflation of yin yang into judeo-christian concept with "God v Satan" causes alot of this confusion, when Satan was never really the polar opposite of God, but subservient to God, and biffed his ollie-impossible-to-madonna and God gave him a 1.5. It's still "all God", the skateboard, the half-pipe, and indeed Satan himself.
>>1237371
I didn't think we were arguing but yeah lol..
My only point is that evil has been given attributes, not only has it been given attributes but it's been given to us to discern from that which is good and vice versa. Served on a platter basically, in an attempt to display the difference between its self and its opposite; which is good and righteousness.
I brought up light because it's associated with good, which is evils opposite. Light's attributes in relation to good is that the light is all revealing and because of it's ability to reveal all, it's always the truth. And the proverb or parable that I can't for the life of me find, I vaguely remember it being something about evil can't exist in the light and despises it due to it's revealing factor. Nothing evil can stand before the light and an example of this is when man gets caught in evil, he wants to run and hide due to the sensation of shame.
Now if God was evil, how could he be light? Because again, God's righteous light is the very thing that reveals truth.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
Anyways I didn't think we were arguing, I was just jumping in the discussion.
because he said so
>>1237283
experiment?
>>1237416
...but your good is not necessarily my good. Your good could decidedly be my evil and in turn you'll think I perpetrate evil upon your good when I want my good "back". 3rd guy comes along, shoots a bazooka at a busload of nuns and orphans, both of us say, "holy shit, that was evil", God just shakes his head, turns the bus occupiers to heavenly beings, accepts the bazooka guy's confession and accepts him, too. Now everyone who saw "the bus incident" thinks God is "evil", but God really has other, greater plans.
So, you see these things are subjective.
>>1237428
So God is not all knowing?
>>1237451
why would he be? because he himself told us he is?
>>1237273
If God is omnipotent and omniscient then whatever he says is good is good and whatever bad, bad. Hence he cannot be bad, only we insofar as we depart from his law.
>>1237455
>why would he be?
Because generally speaking, it's an accepted property of that which is called God.
If he's not Omniscient, and desires knowledge, he's also not Omnipotent. Since he's got none of this going, what makes him God?
I hope this doesn't degenerate into "the sum of all whole numbers is equal to negative one twelfth." You can't make logic putting something illogical into an expression and expect to get anything but mud. Any "all" or any "none" shouldn't be literally understood alongside value. It's a bad language game.
>>1237462
>Because generally speaking, it's an accepted property of that which is called God.
according to god
>>1237470
According to accepted parlance. If you're not going to use words as they're conventionally used, there's no use discussing the properties of them.
>>1237434
Ahhh I see..I see some of what you're saying. You lost me at "wanting your good back" though. That I don't understand what you're trying to say.
As for the bazooka guy, from my understanding mind you, he'll only be forgiven if he comes into the light and is found repented and without evil. But yes, God's mercy and forgiveness is everlasting for mr bazooka. To truly repent, to have a true change of heart, to recognize how wrong he truly was, God would rejoice and not even think twice about accepting him. He'd pull him straight into acceptance before Mr Bazooka had a chance to say thank you.
But yeah, where we're getting disconnected though is at the idea of there being more than one type of good or having different "goods"....? I think? Because, see, to me, truth is linear and unconquerable. And truth can only take effect or be seen with light and since evil can't coexist with the light, all that leaves is one good, one righteousness, that's seen by way of God's righteous one light. I think I jumped to a huge conclusion without filling in a gap right there, but I think the gaps can be filled without me explaining. I don't know though lol.
So yeah, I don't think God can be evil. Not truthfully anyways. But I do see how people can be confused into thinking He is evil. But in my opinion, that's simply just not possible.
>>1237475
contributor of >>1237464
There is no "property of all". Now you've given value to "no value", and that's not acceptable if you're going to reach a conclusion. Part of infinity is still infinity, as is 2(infinity). Don't tell us about "properties" or "values" when you're arguing a "concept". It's wrong.
tl;dr:stop right there criminal scum
Just because this made me smile
hehe
>>1237478
>You lost me at "wanting your good back" though.
Joshua fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down, as did the existence of every man, woman, child and beast, except for the hooker who worked with the spies.
>>1237478
Why do you automatically assume that a person who thinks differently from "your opinion" is confused? You shouldn't do that.
>>1237475
>>1237475
Not him, hut there are plenty of types of gods. They don't all need to have the same properties.
Although he is correct this is according to God he could not know that he does not know something.
Even the Christian god is seeking something since he created the universe, perfect beings have no need for anything at all no actions no desires.
>>1237487
Gotcha, I see what you're saying now. Things that appear unjust...? Had to google this real quick, but Mathew 5:44-45
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
We all appear to generally get the same treatment as Mathew 5:45 points out, but like you said earlier that I completely agree with is that God has greater plans. But I see what you're saying.
Now to me that's not necessarily evil though, but that's where faith and study comes into play. But you just pointed out the very thing that makes people question who God really is. That's the more difficult aspects of His actions to understand though.
>>1237490
Part of me see's it as my opinion, part of me sees it as His truth. I say only part because I'm trying to go off His word and put it together, but if I'm wrong then that's on me. But I've been confused before too, so I don't think of it as a negative thing. I thought God was cruel at times and would even curse his name to be honest, especially when anything bad happened in my life. I had to study to figure out a lot of my personal issues, but yeah didn't mean to offend you at all bro.
>>1237531
Again, you are assuming that your point of view is the only true one because of some 'process' you went through that you assume is the same for others. Stop.
>>1237283
So he can torture/play with beings living in it
>>1237541
My bad, I'm honestly just thinking and winging it here. Enjoying the discussion though cause it's making me think and dig for things I wouldn't have otherwise thought of tonight.
The whole concept of evolution seems to be evil
I think if there is a god he's evil
>>1237323
>and why cannot he simply create amusement
He just simply created it. Amusement for himself. He isn't some junkie who would do magic heroin, he is evil intelectual that want to observe us struggle and fail.
>If he is an entity worthy of being called God
We haven't even agreed on the definition of god. To me every entity worshiped is by definition god. If you mean "monotheistic" god then he would need only to be omnipotent (and not even that in the bible), coz other atributes are just additions really.
>>1237301
>So you are proposing he is flawed, limited in some way?
What is wrong with that?
>finds pleasure in subjecting sentient beings to endless suffering?
Again, what is your problem with that statement?
>>1237531
>Things that appear unjust...?
Yeh, it seems we apply "evil" to "unfair things that promote suffering", as if there's some universally correct act that promotes suffering which one might consider righteous. We're told, though, in Hebrews, none are righteous, so everything we "do" is from the actions of the unrighteous, so everything we do could, by someone, be considered "evil", but to others "good". God is exempt of this consideration, because God created it all, set it into motion, and while (to me) Jesus "is" God, he, too, is similarly "blameless" or "without sin".
>>1237576
How very Lutheran of you.
>>1237273
The knowledge of good and evil was suppressed so we wouldn't find out that god is evil.
>>1237576
Just because you created something does not make you exempt for its rules.
That's absurd
>>1237589
I like that.
Would that mean that god is not just but rather unjust. If so then would god lie, and what would his motives be to lie?
>>1237620
God has admitted to lying...
>>1237576
When I started to believe, had to give God the benefit of the doubt until I got my answers. Wasn't easy at all for me desu.
>>1237589
More like so we wouldn't have to experience suffering
>>1237600
And when He floors you like Job with his answer to your attempt to pass judgement on Him?
I'm not saying that to invoke some edgy fear, just don't be surprised if he has a perfect answer for whatever it is you want to ask Him...after all we're ultimately talking about mans intelligence compared to the consciousness of the Creator.
The idea of god is way too absurd and too human(as a construct) to be real. But an idea of a demiurge, a conscient force who created the universe as we know and is under universal laws we may not compreend like chaos and empty, is a more realistic concept of creator.
Such creator is more likely to be neutral, therefore more likely too be observed as good or evil by all possible point of view.
Tldr: if god exists he don't care about your snow flake soul at all. You better grow and take care of yourself.
>>1237629
I would welcome that conversation. I would have no reason to fear a good God.
Though his interaction with Job was nothing more than dick measuring. I would expect much better.
But all you have is bullshit speculation so it is all for naught.
If I create a board game I still have to follow the rules.
God is not exempt from the rules
>>1237569
Where did this flaw come from?
>Again, what is your problem with that statement?
What doesn't he simply create pleasure?
>He isn't some junkie who would do magic heroin, he is evil intelectual that want to observe us struggle and fail.
What you're proposing is exactly a junkie: someone who simply desires a particular sensual experience. He's just created an extremely roundabout manner to get it.
>>1237645
What need would it have of consciousness?
>>1237647
No offense and I sincerely mean that, but if your arrogance doesn't impress me I can only imagine how much smaller it is to Him.
>>1237600
You don't judge God. You don't taunt happy fun ball.
>>1237657
There is no arrogance. I don't hold god to the esteem that you do. Since I don't believe he exists I can't really be arrogant.
This is me wanting answers and not wanting to get jobed.
You just think I am trying to be edgy you are wrong and a fool. I see an opportunity for answers to questions I have had since I was 10 and I am getting the pure facts ,nothing would stop me. I prostrate for no one. It's not in my nature, thank your God for that.
>>1237667
I just did...
>>1237650
>So ignorance is bliss?
Technically, we already had this discussion. Evil can't exist with light, if light is the very thing that reveals the truth by bringing everything forth to see. And if light reveals what is good and righteous and what is evil, and if God is the light, then again, evil can't exist in the light.
John 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
There's a huge gap that's not being filled about how evil can't exist in the light. But the above parable...no pun intended, sheds light on how evil can't exist in the light.
>>1237703
Why would he? If he is a good God? I should have nothing to fear, who fears love?
Pure conjecture based on unfounded faith... Next!
>>1237648
if he created the universe and earth, and he enjoys watching suffering on earth, then he has created his pleasure, hasnt he?
who cares what you call it, its semantics
>>1237733
You can drive me away from something I do not believe in. I would never want any god rendered with Christian imagination. It is a despicable being. His interaction with Job is enough to sour me. Then you read the Bible and it's all down hill from there.
No I do not kneel, I would have to be forced and in being forced any respect would vanish.
Your s God simply not worthy of worship. It is evil if anything. You pathetic creatures fear power that's why you bow.
>>1237771
Calm down, seriously. Could kinda tell you were gonna' get offended. I shouldn't have taken the bait.
Now have you really read the book of Job? I'm sincerely asking. Because God's response to Job, that floored him and that I initially pointed out above, was to drive home the fact that there is so much Job can't even begin to fathom or understand about God's power and wisdom. Job already knew that, but Job didn't know the specifics, that God was not the one who attacked him, and that God's whole plan was to reveal Job's strength, righteousness, humility, and loyalty to God to the face of evil. God wanted to show the face of evil that not even death and disease could break Job's bond to God.
>>1237829
Actually God just wanted to have some lulz and win a bet with his old buddy Satan.
>>1237283
To inflict pain and suffering on the inhabitants?
>>1237829
I am not offended I am just telling you what I think of your reckoning.
Yes I have read the entire bible, except for numbers.
Your explanation is bullshit apologetics. You already have these notions of God so you substitute them. Since I don't believe I see it clearly. He just waved his dick, and all for a bet.
I have no desire to worship a god that would inflict such suffering upon me. You aren't helping your case.
>>1237771
>>1237841
>>1237839
>>1237832
Look at these fucking neckbeards right here
Also this is a history board, if you want to discuss imaginary characters there is /lit/
>>1237856
Please don't bully, Jimmy.
>MFW you realize God actually exists and he's been various human beings all along and just fucks with humanity all day long
>You might have spoken to God at some point and he was a cashier or that asshole that almost killed you with his fucking car
>>1237339
Right back at you m8. Hatred.
>>1237273
God's both. God and the Devil are two sides of the same coin.
>>1237323
Your entire argument seems to be built under the premise that in orrder for something to be considered a "god" it has to be flaswless. Which hasn't been the case in pretty much most cultures throughout history.
There's no reason whatsoever to assume that the Christian god can't be a piece of shit with severe character flaws.
