How were the people from olden timey days such good composers?
This is a piece by His Eminence Hilarion, it's contemporary and I think it's breddy gud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kC13O-GdMw
>>1212843
they didn't smoke marijuana all day
We have geniuses today too. The only thing that's changed is the prominence of orchestral compositions.
>>1212843
>have the "market" instead of educated nobles decide to which kind of music the money will go
>plebs choose pleb tier music
Color me surprised.
Do you think that, in Bach's time, if the "market" (that is the unwashed masses) had its way, the majority wouldn't prefer some vulgar tipe of dance music instead of intricate polyphonic works?
In short pay them and the composers will come back.
>>1212843
Because the audience they compose for were actually learned in music theory, which means that more sophisticated pieces were in demand.
>yfw you will never be part of Freiderich the Great's music court
>yfw you will never be friends with all the prominent composers that were also employed there
>>1213074
that room looks so comfy
>>1213073
>tfw you realize democracy and capitalism are the same thing, one is just applied to politics, the other to economics
>>1213073
> the majority wouldn't prefer some vulgar tipe of dance music instead of intricate polyphonic works?
The masses did have their own music, it's called folk and it absolutely blows this gay ass pseud shit out the water.
>>1213078
Both are responsible for the greatest increase in wealth & living standards that the world has ever seen.
>>1213083
Plebeian detected.
>>1212843
There are minority of people and such minority of people who can write a music exists today.
>>1213090
>>>/yeoldemu/
>>1213083
Medieval dance music is pretty dank, better than Strauss's waltzes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PJ9vyOs2ZY
>tfw you will never fall in love to this music
>>1213087
That's technology
Democracy and capitalism are responsible for the moral and cultural decline of the Western world
>>1213076
Ikr. Must be cozy as fuck doing what you love as work with coworkers that share your interest.
>>1213100
>That's technology
The explosion of innovation is a direct result of liberty & the educated & literate populace that came with it.
You can't divorce 'technology' from liberalism
>>1213111
Education came from more affluence, not more liberty to embrace depravity.
>technology didn't exist before liberalism
>>1212850
Does everything have to be orthodox shit with you
can't you just listen to some grimes and chill god
20th century classical music is better than any other century though
>>1213078
as if there's really a separation between politics and economics
>>1213141
This is demonstrably false lmao, mostly because "classical" music endedin 1850.
Music has become on the other hand more ubiquitous which has made it lose its magic to a degree and has to compete with other types of entertainment that didn't exist before (movies, video games etc.). That's why not many people are nowadays willing to listen to music attentively for a long time (more than five minutes), which is needed for "serious" music, hence there is less demand for it.
Metal in the intellectual successor to classical music
>>1213141
Except for Russian composers, 20th Century orchestral music is awful.
>muh Schoenberg
>muh Gershwin
You seriously saying these fruitloops can match the Renaissance or baroque or rococo or classical?
>>1213161
Metal is the intellectual successor to plague sufferers screaming.
>>1213161
down with memes
>>1213161
I thought 4chan is 18+?
>>1213087
And it's all meaningless.
>>1213166
Morricone, faggot.
>>1213161
I can't even tell metal apart from classical. They sound more or less the same to me.
Greatest masterwork of our lifetime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wabrnt1MVVQ
Prove me wrong.
>>1213136
>Education came from more affluence, not more liberty
Affluence among the general population came from the liberty to pursue commercial opportunities.
>technology didn't exist before liberalism
Not what I was implying at all. You attribute the elevation of living standards to simply 'technology' without understanding that it was liberalism that made it possible for those leaps in innovation to take place. Innovation since the 18th century has not come from the top down but from the bottom up. Freeing the general body of society from fossilized hierarchies is what allowed the enterprising & ingenious members of society to contribute the 'technology' that provided for the boon in wealth and living standards.
In this way you cannot divorce "technology" you attribute to prosperity from liberalism.
>>1213186
*Maricon
>>1213193
>Affluence among the general population came from the liberty to pursue commercial opportunities.
That came from the black plague killing off large portions of the working class and driving wages up, not from any new economic system.
> Innovation since the 18th century has not come from the top down but from the bottom up
Yeah, and the more we go that way, the worse it's gotten. Great tech like the freeway and the internet came from the military. "Bottom up" tech is apps and flavor #54
>>1213194
That's pretty funny from a guy who wanted to marry a tranny.
>>1213207
Huh? I never wanted to marry a transsexual.
>>1213207
no more constantine slander
>>1213207
>bullying my argument buddy
Only I can do that, you slut.
>>1213209
In all seriousness though are you a tranny or not?
>>1213226
No.
>>1213226
It's not canon
>>1213226
Yes.
>>1213100
> moral and cultural decline
We create more beautiful music today than it was in XIX century. The problem here is that nobody is competent enough to rate it all and spoon feed all good composers for you and just small percent of people are dedicated enough to deep themselves, trying to be an active listener instead of consumer who listen passively to what is in a trend or retard who whines nonstop about muh decline of culture. Basically, the same reason why it seems that the past have a more geniuses than the present time. You need to be very smart to properly evaluate all modern scientific problems. This is why it is easy to point on Aristotle as example of human genius. This is why it is very hard to understand work that some guy put on proving the Poincare conjecture. We doesn't really live at times of moral or cultural decline. We live in time when our cultural or moral advancements are very complicated for a common people to jump at the bandwagon. There exists so many good music and yet you hardly could name even one modern author because in truth it's more easy to repeat opinions of critics from a past. It is more easy to whining about decline than try to do your part as a reader or even a listener. You tried to discover new music? Rate hundreds of pieces? Probably not. Maybe one or two times in your life. The only culture that is dead today is a culture of educated participation. The search for aesthetics is dead now. It is only about consumptions of big names and popular trends. Everyone desire read, but they would only read a book that are popular, appreciated by everyone else enough already. All people are too scared to be honest to their taste. Scared of their search for an experience. All they care is to be seen as the pinnacle of cultural and aesthetic wisdom by others. There is no way that are safer for that petty and cruel task than to shit on contemporary authors by denying fact of their existence. That is a pathetic truth of your decline.
>>1213240
We have a lot of toys, but because of that, we've neglected the great music which can be made simply. This was written in the 20th Century and it's a cappella
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1FzSC8DBs
>>1213250
This was made in 2010 its by my waifu grimes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjxqYdGWjgM
>>1213204
>"Bottom up" tech is apps and flavor #54
"Bottom up tech" is essentially EVERYTHING you use on a daily basis. The electric light in your room. The AC or heating in your house. Your refrigerator, the machines that make your clothes, the machines that power your house, airplanes, cars, bicycles, the tools that grow the food that you eat, the machines that process them, the lorries that transport them etc.. etc...
All of that was spurred that liberalism. The "capitalism" and "democracy" you scoff at. You seem to have lost the ability to distinguish difference between intelligent critique and dogmatic rejection.
>>1213256
Why do you think these technologies would be unattainable without liberalism? You think there would be no demand and patronage for their research?
Metal is the closest, mechanically, to classical. There's so much more you can DO with metal, than say, R&B or hip hop. At least instrumentally and thematically.
Can you imagine a pop song about vikings or dragons? One with an extended instrumental section?
>>1213250
That's lovely. Do you have any more pieces you like that are similar?
>>1213280
heh
>>1213280
There's literally a pop band called Imagine Dragons that personifies personal struggles as huge battles between demons and angels.
It's kitschy as fuck but shit like it's there. Same with Glitch Mob's Warrior Concerto.
>>1213292
>Imagine Dragons
Kill me senpai
>>1213298
The memes really has gone too far this time
>>1213250
> This was written in the 20th Century
And this is still perfectly reachable for you to listen whenever you want from public transport to in your sleep. We literally live in time where everyone can incorporate any kind of music to play major part in their day-to-day existence! How people got a nerve to blame their laziness on cultural decline is really beyond me. We got more opportunities for arrange our existence according to all of the ours aesthetic preferences than you could count. Yes, practically nobody bothers to use all of their creative freedom.
>>1213275
>Why do you think these technologies would be unattainable without liberalism?
Let's deal with historical fact as they happened than speculating on what "could have" happened. Liberalism played an enormous role in the innovation that brought prosperity to the west. While serfs in Russia were languishing under a fixed hierarchy, enterprising rural Americans, most famously Eli Whitney, had the freedom to innovate & invent new tools that improved people's lives.
>>1213306
Definitely. We're in a time period where we have unparalleled opportunities to educate ourselves and create works of culture and quality.
Op is just another fag that's hopelessly deluded into thinking they were born in muh wrong generation.
>>1213306
Constantine is a fag who, because of his religion, has to praise the virtues of being a shit eating russian peasant as the most pure and virtuous lifestyle. Expect anything associated with modernity to get a tirade about how shit sucks these days from him.
>>1213306
Yep, no one learns these sorts of songs any more to sing themselves. I love this hymn at my parish, and I love signing it. Groups of regular people hardly sing together anymore, except Mexicans who can barely speak English, or drunks
>>1213316
>Liberalism played an enormous role in the innovation
I don't believe that. It just changed the mechanism. It made certain innovations more likely (such as pet rocks), but cars and electric lighting would be valued technology regardless of liberalism, and patronized in research.
>>1213098
how do we know this is what they played? did they write music?
>>1213316
Russian serfs, by the way, didn't have it any less freedom than the workers of Matewan.
>>1213343
It's recorded, yes. Most of the popular music we have from Middle Ages was recorded by clerici vagantes
>>1213146
underrated bait
>>1213336
>I don't believe that.
It's not a question of faith. It's something we can look back on and see it as it happened. The countries that embraced liberalism had higher literacy, higher standards of living, and generally were more innovative than their conservative counterparts. You can speculate that "oh the assembly line would have been invented by SOMEONE at SOMETIME" but as it ACTUALLY happened, it was an enterprising businessmen who came up with that innovation because he was motivated by profit & efficiency. The automobile was made affordable because of capitalism. The story is the same with just about EVERYTHING you use on a daily basis. Commercial concerns spurred efficiency and improved people's lives.
You can still critique capitalism and give credit where credit is due.
It's also no coincidence today that countries with more economic freedom correlate with higher standards of living.
>>1213382
>The countries that embraced liberalism had higher literacy, higher standards of living, and generally were more innovative than their conservative counterparts.
They embraced liberalism after having a sizable bourgeoisie, they didn't get a sizable bourgeoisie because of liberalism.
>>1213166
Mahler
>>1213087
>muh numbers
shit stays the same
>>1213393
/his/
>>1213344
>Russian serfs, by the way, didn't have it any less freedom than the workers of Matewan.
Yes, the serfs were famous for their freedom of speech & right to own firearms.
>>1213170
>metal
>screaming
There are a lot of subgenres m8.
Also metal have a lot more thought put into it than the mainstream trash that are made from the computers nowdays
>>1213433
>mainstream trash that are made from the computers nowdays
Get out of here Dave Grohl you fucking geezer
>>1213400
The hell does that have to do with technological innovation?
>>1213166
Mahler, Bartok, Reich, Glass, Cage
>>1213457
The people of a tiny west virginian mining town weren't exactly the innovators I was previously referring to. I just found it somewhat ironic that his example of people who were "oppressed & bound by capitalist shackles" were still literate gun-owners. Something your typical serf would never dream of being.
I could have said the right "to own books & teach their families to read" I guess.
>>1213191
Is this autism? You can't tell an electrical guitar, a double bass and growling vocals apart from a viola, harpsichord and harp? The fuck?
>>1213496
>The instruments used define music
This is the appropriate time to call someone a pleb.
>>1213474
Serfs were allowed to have books
>>1213074
CPE Bach was wasted on Frederick since the king was only interested in the flute works by Quantz and himself.
>>1213240
The Patriots were right.
>>1213433
Yeah but these people don't realize (good and well thought out) screamo and, let's say the queen of the nights aria, are the same thing but just on the other end of the spectrum.
>>1213161
True. But only the less popular metal genres (much like classical music itself). The more popular genres/bands are not that much like classical, but more than your average pop band.
>>1213531
We're talking sub 30% literacy rates among male serfs in the late 19th century. Around 10% for women. Literacy among serfs actively discouraged by the Russian authorities.
>>1213571
These are numbers comparable to slaves in the American south. Was it technically illegal for slaves to own books? No. But in both cases learning to read either depended on the whims & good graces of a master or they were risking severe punishment.
>>1212843
Tupac wasn't around, so there wasn't a real G to compete with.
>>1213240
So,are you saying we've already hit rock bottom since the start of our existence and we've never noticed it until now?
nothing compared to hans zimmer
>Great Catholic composers
Palestrina, Lassus, Tallis, Byrd, Corelli, Scarlatti, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, Liszt, and almost every other great composer in history
>Great Protestant composers
Schutz, Bach, Purcell, Handel, Mendelssohn
>Great orthodox composers
Nobody of worth before the middle of the 19th century, then you have some fag who wrote for cannons and killed himself, and slav emigrants who wrote firetrucks and memes.
Orthocucks are you even trying anymore?
>>1213280
incorrect. Modern classical is the closest to classical.
Unless its written by trained composers and primarily stored in a written score and intended for live performance in the concert hall, its not classical / art music.
>>1213166
>20th Century orchestral music is awful
you dont know shit about 20th century music if you think that. There's a huge variety of different types of orchestral music in the 20th century. Its 2016, surely some 1912 atonal music like schoenberg isn't going to offend you? its ancient history at this point. Have you listened to his 5 orchestral pieces? how about a survivor from warsaw?
If Gershwin and Schoenberg are your summation of 20th century music I'd suggest you go read a book
>>1214598
I need no further proof that the spirit of God, the source of all inspiration, has fled the ortho schismatic emperor/state cult.
>>1214623
And it should noted that Stravinsky, an orthodox himself, chose to commit to music a Latin mass rather than an orthodox liturgy, so sterile and monotonous a form he thought the orthodox service was.
>>1214598
>Great Orthocuck composers
Titov, Pekalitsky, Kalashnikov, Bavykin, Trediakovsky, Degtiarev, Vedel, Bortnyansky, Berezovsky, Davydov, Turchaninov. Bortnyansky, Lvov, Lomakin, Vorotnikov, Bakhmetev, Golitsyn, Strokin, Kastalsky, Chesnokov, Nikolsky, Arkhangelsky, Allemanov, Vinogradov
To name a few
>>1214638
None of which even have a shred of influence on the direction of art music. They are so back bench, they've actually bloody fallen off. It's almost laughable that a western composer as astonishingly mediocre as Gluck or Hasse are more well known, and has more skill than all of them combined.
>>1214638
Learn to read anon, he asked for Great Orthodox composers, you just listed Orthodox composers.
>>1214598
>firetrucks and memes
Back to your >>>/classical/ containment thread you pseudo-intellectual memer.
>>1214638
>Kalashnikov
I've heard that this one has many hit songs...
But in all seriousness, nobody of notice on that list. I'm sure they must have written thousands of generic, interchangeable orthodox hymns and harmonizations of Russian folk songs for four-part choir, but still, no one composer of notice.
>>1212843
Classical music is dead because it has no demographic today. 1000 years ago the audience was the church. 250 years ago the audience was largely people who wanted to be entertained at parties, operas, etc. Who exactly is the audience for something like Schoenberg or Feldman? Other musicians and wannabe artists. Composers from the old times were better because they had a substantial audience.
>>1214598
You don't mean that seriously, right? First of all Mendelssohn-Bartholdy was jewish and just saying there were no good orthodox composers is laughable. Of course the russians didn't have any great composers before 19th century due to a lack of nationalism and national culture. Well Napolean and Romanticism changed that; it needed a Glinka in music to create a russian style of classical music, but it also needed a Pushkin for literature and nobody would ever say, there weren't any great russian authors or poets. Also: Tchaikovsky was certainly not the only great russian compser of his time:
>who is Glinka?
>who are the great five?
....
>>1214652
Mussorgsky literally invented modern music
Look up the influences of Boris Godunov for Debussy and night on bald mountain for expressionism.
>>1214652
Pretty much all of those are sacred music composers. They're not writing music to "influence" art music.
Orthodox church actually banned instruments for many many years so its not surprising we see less great instrumental works.
>>1214684
Mendelssohn was a Lutheran unless you're talking about his ancestry.
>>1213139
>Does everything have to be orthodox shit with you
the thing he posted is no way orthodox, like not one thing about this composition has anything to do with orthodox tradition, other than the priests on the picture and the cyrillic script.
>>1212843
Because there were thousands of composers and we only remember the few dozen great ones?
>>1214688
He literally did not. He may have influenced Debussy but that was about it. Both are still too embedded in late-romantic chopinesque piano music and tone poetry. Schoenberg and Satie started the two main trends in 20th century,so-called "modern" music, that is the more "constructivist" trend of serialism and the more ironic, destructive post-modernist approach.
>>1214684
>Of course the russians didn't have any great composers before 19th century due to a lack of nationalism and national culture.
I asked for Orthodox composers, and that church has existed for as long as the Catholic Church, supposedly.
>>who are the great five?
A Chemistry professor and his fuccboi friends. Are you seriously trying to argue their place in music is comparable to Tolstoy and Dostoevsky's place in literature?
>Look up the influences of Boris Godunov for Debussy and night on bald mountain for expressionism.
And gypsies and street fiddlers gave Haydn inspiration for his late style after the death of Mozart, especially his oratorios and piano trios. Just because they were influenced by something doesn't necessarily imply the source of the influence was any good on its own.
>Orthodox church actually banned instruments for many many years so its not surprising we see less great instrumental works.
Even if you consider exclusively sacred music, the Catholic Church alone blows the Orthodox church out of the water even if you consider just the 100 years between 1450 and 1550. The innovation and development of music, and the number of master composers emerging is astonishing.
>They're not writing music to "influence" art music.
Nobody does, but the greater the piece, the greater the influence and people are willing to imitate it. Influence comes naturally if it is good enough.
>>1214750
>A Chemistry professor and his fuccboi friends. Are you seriously trying to argue their place in music is comparable to Tolstoy and Dostoevsky's place in literature?
Of course I do. also
>Borodin is the head of the great five
Go for Rimsky-Korsakov, Balakirev and Mussorgsky. Rimksy-Korsakov was a master of orchestration and to understand the importance and depth of his work i would recommend reading his works as a professor about harmony and polyphony and to get into his late works eg The golden cockerel.
>>1214747
Satie comes from Debussy comes from Mussorgsky
Also Rimksy-Korsakov was the teacher of Stravinsky, who is without a doubt one of the most important composers of the modern.
>Nobody does, but the greater the piece, the greater the influence and people are willing to imitate it. Influence comes naturally if it is good enough.
I'm not arguing that. Boris Godunov was good enough
>Even if you consider exclusively sacred music, the Catholic Church alone blows the Orthodox church out of the water even if you consider just the 100 years between 1450 and 1550. The innovation and development of music, and the number of master composers emerging is astonishing.
Also not arguing that. I'm a catholic myself and I'm well aware that the orthodox church had another place for music in the liturgy and that the catholic church had a lot of art music, but just to say hurr-durr orthodox can't into music is laughable and wrong.
>Russian "music"
Throw it in the trash.
>>1214781
That comes from Liszt, that comes from Beethoven, that comes from Haydn... Haydn invented modern music? Debussy was also influenced by gamelan music he heard at the Paris fair. Javanese people invented modern music? It doesn't work like that. Good point on Stravinsky though. He, not (the national-romantics) Mussorgsky or Rimsky-Korsakov, is the Russian "name" in the modernist movement.
>>1214750
>And gypsies and street fiddlers gave Haydn inspiration for his late style after the death of Mozart, especially his oratorios and piano trios. Just because they were influenced by something doesn't necessarily imply the source of the influence was any good on its own.
define "good"
>>1214781
>Of course I do.
Then you clearly do not appreciate Mozart enough.
>Boris Godunov was good enough
It may be. Then you realise what was composed contemporaneously in the west, such as Verdi's Aida, and the latter part of the Ring Cycle...
>hurr-durr orthodox can't into music is laughable and wrong
They can't. At least they dim considerably when compared to the mainstream. European art music is overwhelmingly dominated by the west. Whatever influence the Orthodox had, it was a limited and regional one, not of the mainstream. What did they build on? The foundations laid down by western composers from the ages past, incidentally almost of of which are Catholics.
>>1214903
Fuck off CLT.
>>1213508
>proper use of instrumentation isn't a vital layer of art music that is missing from most popular music
Spot the turbopleb
>>1214880
You don't see swaths fellow composers rushing to imitate gypsy tunes and borrowing their formal structures. You don't see considerable critical literature analyzing and discussing the musical aspects of these tunes. You don't see performers rushing to play transcriptions of 18th century Gypsy tunes, and audiences flock to fill concert halls listening to programs filled with these jaunty tunes. You don't see a continued interest, from performers, scholars, critics, composers, in those street dances. All of the above however does apply to Haydn, I guess he is in this sense what you can say "good".
>>1214936
>there is no critical literature about folk and traditional music
Really?
TV and video games have destroyed our brains.
We have lost true art and now fill our brains with shit.
Weep for us.
>>1214947
>There is no considerable critical literature analyzing and discussing the localised folk tunes of southern Germany in the latter half of the eighteenth century, where Haydn is active, which may have served as Haydn's inspiration. However there is a substantial body of papers describing the works of a single German composers active in the aforementioned region
Yes really.
>>1214967
I'l write you off as a retard then, cheers.
>>1214975
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
>>1214964
But movies and video games are the last remnant of the classical music that still matters...
>>1215014
What I meant to say is, the only media for which composers write music for orchestra and have a wide audience are movies and video games
>>1214842
He is the one actually being part of it, but negating the great accomplishements of the great five especially Rimsky-Korsakov and Mussorgsky is like negotiating the role of the Tristan accord in modern music. Wagner was romantic as well, nonetheless he came up with ideas nobody ever had before, that must be seen as modernistic. Same for Mussorgsky/Rimsky-Korsakov. And the artists and so the composers of every time and age came up with new ideas, that gained influence in the next era. You can't see the history of western art as separated schools. So Mussorgsky was part of a protomodern style and of late romanticism. That doesn't contradict itself.
>>1214978
>You don't see swaths fellow composers rushing to imitate gypsy tunes and borrowing their formal structures
Bartok and all the other composers who took influence from traditional music no longer exist?
>You don't see considerable critical literature analyzing and discussing the musical aspects of these tunes
Ethnomusicology is a thing you fucking retard.
>You don't see performers rushing to play transcriptions of 18th century Gypsy tunes, and audiences flock to fill concert halls listening to programs filled with these jaunty tunes
A sphere centered around written tradition doesn't bother with music based on oral tradition? Color me surprised.
>You don't see a continued interest, from performers, scholars, critics, composers, in those street dances
Those who care, care. Those who do not shitpost on /classical/
>>1215032
negating* not negotiating
>>1213532
He still made some good stuff
>>1215035
You seem to be arguing with the premise that the entire body of folk and traditional music is one organic entity, stretching from the dawn of mankind to the modern day, and a quality judgment, such as "good" or not, can only somehow be made on the entire body of music throughout all history across all geographical locations. This is nonsense, in the end we must deal with specific cases, confine our topic to a fixed region, at a fixed time, or possibly to a fixed collection of tunes. There are no doubt many composers who borrowed from various sources, but they are dwarfed by the rest who are quite content to work inside the classical framework, which is fertile enough. Not to mention there is no doubt that the sources for Chopin, Haydn, Brahms' and Bartok's are different, and if value judgments must be made, it will be on a case by case basis dealing with the specific circumstance of each of the different sources.
For an example, you can easily apply my argument to Diabelli's Waltz that is the source for Beethoven's most famous variation. If Beethoven never took it for inspiration, will it get performed regularly, have analysis done on it, and stay in the minds of musicians for centuries, or will it be assigned to the trashcan of history? You can apply this to the specific set of folk tunes that was the inspiration for a particular composer for a particular set of pieces too, but it's an obvious strawman that value judgement cannot be made on folk music as a whole.
>>1214903
>Christianity
>Western
Select one.
Something to do with the spread of material rationalism and ego's desperate attempt to conquer music, among other things.
Most common practice period music is based on the "fan theory" of the triad - a random linear idea that was erroneously considered to be the foundation of music. Going from the one to the many and picking a single facet as your doorway to manifesting musical ideas, for better or for worse, allows for great industriousness that would otherwise be impossible considering music's intrinsic otherness. This industriousness in turn elevated music from mere entertainment and religious formality to something "greater". Makers of music were now seen explorers of the aural wilderness and there was a big sportive element in composing - who can put more things under the tradic yoke and who could smash more things between the anvil of the tonic and the hammer of the dominant. This rather distasteful practice had an overall positive effect on music, since it was congruent with the broader egotistic Descartianism that was sweeping the West, the composer became a celebrity and the subsequent sociocultural mechanisms (idolatry, fortune, critique, tradition, preservation) galvanized the common practice period.
Reminder that Ludwig von Basedthoven invented the boogie-woogie.
>>1214416
It is more about how our culture is actually better than ever, but our culture reflection is all tiers low because no person could actually reflect mass of culture products in all complexity that created by society. Basically, our real culture is on the rise. What is on decline is secondary culture. There is huge amount of high quality art produced, but we got no time to really all of that at the context. So people who depend on cultural standards and on values set by society feel to be lost in modernity. Contrary to this if you just want to explore waste possibilities of human souls and mind, there is a golden age for you now. Aesthetic experience is the personal thing in itself now, and it isn't for an everyone. Some people really enjoy more shared cultural narrative side of a culture, which is weak because our modern culture is very hard to unify.
>>1213146
Here is your (you).
What can you lads tell me about chinese and indian classical music?
>>1215680
Hinustani music (which is the type of Indian classical music everyone knows in the West) was strongly influenced by Persian classical music. For example the most famous Indian instrument, the sitar, is a descendant of the Persian Setar - which might share an ancestor with the Greek kithara (ancestor of today's guitar).
>>1215680
Sorabji is very good.
>>1212854
Au contraire, mon frere. Marijuana was not exactly exotic or taboo, though at that time it was mostly eaten, and of course it wouldn't have been as strong as we're used to now. Quite a lot of composers were alcoholics and drank like fish, too.
>>1213139
ergh
>>1214652
>They are so back bench, they've actually bloody fallen off.
Hahaha witty banter! xD
>>1216051
>Quite a lot of composers were alcoholics and drank like fish, too.
Not good ones, only shitty ones like Beethoven
Was Mozart the first memecomposer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C78HBp-Youk
>>1214903
>Then you clearly do not appreciate Mozart enough.
I've never said a word about Mozart. Why do you come up with that?
>They can't. At least they dim considerably when compared to the mainstream. European art music is overwhelmingly dominated by the west. Whatever influence the Orthodox had, it was a limited and regional one, not of the mainstream. What did they build on? The foundations laid down by western composers from the ages past, incidentally almost of of which are Catholics.
Never argued that classical music is dominated by western european music, that is for a large part catholic as western europe is. But orthodox couldn't into music until 19th century, because there didn't exist a tradition. It literally started with the invention of russian nationalism in music (Glinka) as well as in literature (Pushkin). But you can't negate that since the russians took part in the tradition of classical music (mid of 19th century) they brought up many genius composers as Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakow or Stravinsky, that had also a large influence on the west.
>It may be. Then you realise what was composed contemporaneously in the west, such as Verdi's Aida, and the latter part of the Ring Cycle..
I would definitely say, that boris Godunow was more revolutionary(not saying better, that's subjective) than Aida or Verdi's music ever was. It's also interesting how this masterpiece managed to influence western art music, although it was hated by many. But the interesting in Mussorgsky's and Rimsky-Korsakov's work are their interesting aesthetics, that were more modern than most of the stuff, that were written in the west (including Wagner's late works as Parsifal, as its aesthetic ended in a dead end)
>>1213306
It is exactly this freedom that paralyzes people, I am quite sure. Anything in surplus is liable to be taken for granted. Humanity is being tested by this unprecedented moment in time.
>>1216166
Mussorgsky and Stravinsky are debateable, but Rimsky-Korsakov at least wrote what many (I'd say most) would consider THE book on orchestration, that counts for something in my book.
>>1213083
No class.
Bad taste.
Go back to Kanye or whatever shit tier crap you like, you inbred dick.
>>1215680
Some Chinese Examples, mostly from the Late Ming-Qing Period.
>General's Orders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z8E-s4k_9g
>The massive meme that is "Jasmine Flowers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mvfE9NVdHU
>Galloping Battle Steeds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEsTYZz4wfA
>The Conqueror is Surrounded, or Ambush from Ten Sides.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtrthXXmKgA
>>1214598
Saint Kassia and, well, the composers of all the Orthodox Liturgical music.
>>1216238
Now when I was a student and went to music school let’s say between 1957 and 1963, everybody had to write like Stockhausen or Boulez or John Cage, or you were laughed at. No rhythm, no harmony, no melody, and if you were a fool enough to use any of those things, people laughed at you, either in front of your face or behind your back. And you think I’m exaggerating, think of the Titan of the Age, Igor Stravinsky, himself, and he felt obliged to use the twelve-tone techniques. Now being a genius, he used it is own way and he created “Canticum Sacrum,” “Agon,” and other masterpieces because he could bend and move it to his will to do that.
So when I went to school, I was up against the wall: ‘Do this or die’. That’s the way it was. And that also meant that the window between the concert hall and the street had been slammed shut by Schoenberg and his compatriots. Now Arnold Schoenberg’s a great composer, but he had some serious misunderstandings. He thought harmony could be taken out of music, and pulsing rhythm can be taken out of music and music could go on just fine. And he said “oh, in 50 years the postman will whistle my tune”. Well it’s 100 years and no postman on earth will ever whistle Arnold Schoenberg’s anything. He’s still a great composer, but he’s a great composer who lives in a dark corner, and it’s fine to go to that dark corner and listen to his music. Every once in a while, people will continue to do that because he really is a great composer. But he’s not what he thought he was, he’s not some kind of new Tchaikovsky. He’s more a mannerist in a dying romanticism. German romanticism was dying and he was the beginning of its death. It’s still rattling around in its grave over in parts of Europe, but it’s dead and gone.
>>1216441
And that’s perfectly normal, movements come and go, and mannerists go way back to Gesualdo who’s a wonderful composer, but he’s not listened to too often because he’s at the end of overly complex counterpoint where it gets too difficult and people really say “Hey man, let’s just have a melody and some chords” and voila, there’s opera, there’s Monteverdi.
There have been typical changes in the history in any music that it’s too complicated, it slowly dies, and something simpler replaces it, that simple thing becomes more complex, and so it goes. So that’s just the way life is. David Lang, he once said to me “I envy when you were born.” Now what on earth could he have meant by that. Well what he meant was this: I was born in 1936, and I came of age in the 60s and as I said at that point German romanticism was in its death rattle in the form of Boulez and Stockhausen, who are great composers and have accomplished a great deal, but no one will ever listen to their music with any great frequency. It will be played, it will be preserved, as long as there are people to play with music, but it won’t be played very much. And that’s okay, that’s perfectly okay. Boulez is the greatest living musician on earth, he can hear things nobody else can hear, but it remains, as I said, dark corner music.
>>1216445
I guess I am a composer because of all that Stravinsky, because I loved jazz, because I like bebop, I loved Bach, I loved music that had a harmony, that had a regular beat. And so in my generation we did not provide a revolution, we provided a restoration of normalcy. We brought back harmony and rhythm and melody in a brand new way. We brought back the basics, which had been trashed. And if you trash the basics, you trash music.
All musicians in the past, starting with the middle ages were interested in popular music. Béla Bartók's music is made entirely of sources from Hungarian folk music. And Igor Stravinsky, although he lied about it, used all kinds of Russian sources for his early ballets. Kurt Weill's great masterpiece Dreigroschenoper is using the cabaret-style of the Weimar Republic and that's why it is such a masterpiece. Only artificial division between popular and classical music happened unfortunately through the blindness of Arnold Schoenberg and his followers to create an artificial wall, which never existed before him. In my generation we tore the wall down and now we are back to the normal situation, for example if Brian Eno or David Bowie come to me, and if popular musicians remix my music like The Orb or DJ Spooky it is a good thing. This is a natural normal regular historical way.
>>1214598
>Great Catholic composers
>no Vivaldi
baka
>>1216217
Their style and their aesthetic and even their music is debatable. Their influence on western art music isn't.
>>1214692
Instruments are still for the most part, banned. Some Western parishes have organs, but it's pretty heavily frowned upon even though there is no hard and fast rule against them. Hopefully they will be rooted out as the ultra traditional Antiochians (they are so traditional because they have a ton of converts, and converts to Orthodoxy are the most traditionalist) continue to gain dominance through converts in the West.
>>1215931
"Classic" is always relative to it's own culture you dunce.
>>1212843
>this entire thread
Don't listen to the opinions of ideologues and zealots when it comes to art anon. They're clueless and they don't care about quality, they only care about gathering ammunition for their bullshit culture war. I you want to know about modern composers either listen to them or ask someone whose primary interests are music. Asking the politically driven clowns on /his/ will not get you a good answer.
>>1216445
>Boulez is the greatest living musician on earth
boulez died recently
>>1216663
In musicology "classical" or "art music" is VERY clearly defined, and neither hindustani, persian, maghrebi, arabic, chinese, japanese """""""classical""""""" correspond very well to these criteria, while simultaneously corresponding very well to the "folk" or "traditional" category. This would be a total non-issue if these were not non-european styles.
>>1212843
No one remembers the bad ones
>>1216773
>In musicology "classical" or "art music"
You mean Western Musicology?
Like I said Classic = Relative to own culture. Classical Greece sure as shit isn't classical to the Chinese nor is the Spring and Autumn some classical era to the Greeks/Western civilization.
>>1216783
Everyone remembers Mozart.
>>1213161
this
watch the first 3 minutes
>>1213569
>True. But only the less popular metal genres (much like classical music itself). The more popular genres/bands are not that much like classical, but more than your average pop band.
No, just no
>>1216874
fucking hell, does anyone on this board actually know metal is, or do they think all metal is Enter Sandman
>>1216441
>>1216445
>>1216452
VERY underrated post by an actual composer ITT you dumbwits.
I've noticed this myself. Early baroque music is simpler then late Renaissance, and rococo is simpler then late baroque (look at Bach and his sons). I once read that Goethe envisioned the romantic Lied to be as simple as a folk tune, but before you knew we had Mahler and Strauss. It is as if the history of music were like a harmonic progression, you can only go so far before you return to the tonic. And, as Hindemith remarked about Schoenberg, if you don't take the tonic to the stage, the public will take it with them (in their heads), and in this I think he proved the wiser of the two, albeit not the better composer. Tonality is natural and this, he maintained, is what allows listeners to "correct" out of tune and "wrong" performances, in their minds: they take the tonic with them. Now there's a beautiful passage by the British Platonic philosopher Thomas Taylor about the soul "correcting" defective things in the sensible world such as imperfect circles, triangles, etc., based on the things she remembers from the intellectual, exemplary world of the forms. Now, I won't bore my fellow /his/panics with my personal metaphysical and aesthetic views on the subject, but let's just say I think there's a largely objective part to beautiful things that is always there and hinted at even when consciously avoided. But I digress.
>>1216452
post some of your stuff
>>1217127
nah, beauty is just the alignment of your temperament/energy/needs at a particular point in your life with that of the art object.
>>1216075
Bethoven was great, Bach is basically his only match
>>1217144
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrIZBnUda_Q
>>1217156
You took the b8.
>>1217161
Wait you mean to tell us you are Steve Reich? Proof or GTFO.
>>1216773
It's a retarded and arbitrary definition that nobody takes seriously.
>>1212843
The truth is there have been many good composers in each period. You are working off the opinion that older ones were necessarily better while IMO most periods have good composers. There is still good stuff today from Rihm, Einhorn, Adams, etc.
>>1217161
There's no way you're Steve Reich
>>1217156
Further proof that Mozart is underrated.
