ITT: We post images, interesting facts, questions and history about the Malayo-Polynesia peoples and nations that stem at from them.
Tonga empire existed longer than Byzanitum.
>>1212204
>While modern researchers and cultural experts attest to widespread Tongan influence and evidence of transoceanic trade and exchange of material and non-material cultural artifacts, empirical evidence of a true political empire ruled for any length of time by successive rulers is lacking.[1]
"""Empire"""
Made islam it better or worse?
Is there any currency better than the giant stones of Yap?
>Being too large to move, buying an item with these stones is as easy as saying it no longer belongs to you.
> In one instance, a large rai being transported by canoe and outrigger was accidentally dropped and sank to the sea floor. Although it was never seen again, everyone agreed that the rai must still be there, so it continued to be transacted as genuine currency.
>>1212324
Made it better. If only Buddhism spreads more rapidly than Islam, it would be much better. But islam is much better than abo and papua new guinea.
>>1212168
Polynesians are SO FUCKING COOL
We often equate them with Melanesian Pacific peoples, due to ignorant European explorers, but they were a Eurasian people who arrived in the Pacific relatively recently, bringing with them Eurasian technologies such as pottery, net-making, architecture, archery, weaving, agriculture, and obviously sophisticated boat construction.
Also, Polynesians had at least one permanent stone city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Madol
>>1212324
This is a hugely unscientific assertion, but Islam made most states better in the short term but worse in the long term
I find it weird how the Philippines continues to be the only Christian dominated country in that area.
>>1212727
So regrettable
>>1212727
Spreading catholicism was the main and prioritary objective of the Spanish Empire from the start. Often even more important than profit, at least for the spanish state, as shown by their actions in Europe.
>>1212694
....this is not based on science. Polynesians are Austronesians who assimilated into Papuan Lapita society.
Genetics confirms this.
Leave the "_____ IS WHITE" on /int/
>>1212324
It's not Islam made it better or worse. The reason they converted to Islam was because to gain upper hand in trade since most countries that involved in Spice Trade are muslim. Their biggest mistake is they didn't convert to Christianity adopt western culture to ride those western golden bandwagon.
>>1212794
Look at the The Philippines, not that great yet mostly Christian.
>>1212168
Austronesians came from China and are thus Chinese.
>>1212811
Philippines was basically just bunches of tribal shit before Spanish came. So they are irrelevant. I'm talking about civilized kingdoms like in Sumatera, Malaya and Java.
>>1212822
Chinese came from Africa and are thus African.
:^)
>>1212845
So Moros didn't exist?
>>1212859
Well, Moro is shitty right now, like Afghan tier shit. So I intentionally left them out. It's pretty funny when Sulu Sultanate who dominate the Philippines region reduced into shit.
it is home to the largest buddhist temple in the world, Borobudur, in Java, Indonesia. the temple was constructed 300 years earlier than its more famous Cambodian counterpart, Angkor Wat
though the country has mostly been islamised, population of lembang region (where most the temples are located) still adhere to buddhism, muslims there also adhere to a mix of islam, buddhism and hinduism
>>1212846
Yeah but the difference between that is that homo erectus evolved into humans in China whereas the Austronesians left China after they already evolved to humans, driven off by the other ethnicities of China. Many Chinese still have austronesian admixture, if minuscule, especially those from the areas the former great southern kingdoms such as Yue occupied.
Thus the only way we wuz Chinese can work is if niggers admit that niggers are not humans but apes, but Chinese wuz definitely austronesians.
>>1212920
Btw this is the reason most Asians look similar, because as much as other Asians hate to admit, their ancestors came from China, a very multicultural country. It's kind of similar to the indoeuropean migrations, China was the Urheimat of several ethnic groups.
>>1212920
>homo erectus evolved into humans in China
Nope, you fell for the multi-regional hypothesis special snowflake propaganda, there is no genetic reason to think that modern humans evolved separately in a convergent way, rather than spreading out from an origin in Africa, sure a bit of denisovan genes (possibly descendants of erectus in the east) were added, but unless you think Chinese are pure Denisovans then they didn't evolve from erectus in China.
Just from looking at wiki it says china might have been the origin of the culture/language (I'd heard of Singapore as where they'd migrated from previously).
>>1212168
tell me about how other revolts in other countries ended up,I know indons did after WW2
>>1212960
>generalising the multicultural ethnic landscape of south China
>no north China
That chart is fucking retarded and we are not denisovan niggers.
>>1213009
It's not comprehensive, but there is clearly not going to be a separate branch for the Chinese that diverges prior to the African/Papuan-Australian split.
>>1212168
>from the pacifics to madagascar
whoa
>>1212727
phillipines was a mistake
>>1212324
it was better for the local kingdom, better prices in the spice trade, shiny brand new religion with superior laws for the time ,technology, cannons and firearm from the ottomans, with these aceh resisted the dutch till the 19th century
>>1213307
I have ancestry from Madagascar the people who migrated to Madagascar and the people who migrated to near and far Oceania while genetically carrying similar Southeast Asian and Papuan ancestry the cultures, time frames and technological knowledge was different.
>>1212920
Many Chinese still have austronesian admixture, if minuscule, especially those from the areas the former great southern kingdoms such as Yue occupied.
Kinda disingenuous to call it Austronesian admixture when linguists don't even agree on what the historical Yue spoke.
>>1213370
Madagascar is actually a colony of an old Malay kingdom like those in British-America and Spanish-South America unlike others that was basically ancient migration.
>>1213430
...No. just no.
The Merina claim to come (in part) from a later migration of Malay peoples, however the mixed race Malay-Swahili were already on the island for two thousand years and anyways The Sakalava were enslaving Merina and Bestileo for centuries until Europeans wanted to break down Sakalava domination.
Swahili Arabs brought written language and Yemenite Muslims and Jews + Indians + Chinese influenced the genetics. But it's all variable it wasn't a colony though.
>>1212168
aside from genetic and linguistic similarities, these region really don't have much in common, they even look physically different. You can divide them to 4 historically and culturally:
Deutro malays: hindu-buddhists civilisation turned muslim on malaysia, sumatra, java and coastal borneo
Proto malays: tribal societies turned christian or muslim on borneo, celebes, moluccas timor, and philippines
Melanesian papuans: tribal societies similar to australian aborigines in west papua, papua new guinea, and palau
pacific islanders: polynesian civilisation and tribes dotted on small islands between papua and america
bmup
>>1213544
But there is cross over with everyone of those categories and they are all interrelated.
>>1213544
>Proto & Deutero malays
Meh, arbitrary as fark.
>>1213553
yes, but that also apply to cross over with neighbouring non austronesian as well, which means the categorisation become mostly ineffective
for example malays have considerable mix with neighbouring thais and other austroasians
and polynesians have mix of aborigines blood
when you compare them they look really different
>>1213630
basically this, the protos come first, deutros are later migration
>>1213463
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2012/03/15/rspb.2012.0012.full
>Loan words from Sanskrit, all with local linguistic modifications via Javanese or Malay [2,19,20], hint that Madagascar may have been colonized by settlers from the Srivijaya Empire, a major regional power in western Indonesia (modern Java, Sumatra and Malaysia) from the sixth to thirteenth centuries AD. Consistent with this hypothesis, Malagasy borrows large numbers of words from Javanese; the regional lingua franca, Malay; and even languages from southern Sulawesi, an island near the centre of the Indonesian archipelago. Cultural evidence—including iron working techniques, outrigger boats, musical instruments such as the xylophone, and the cultivation of rice, bananas, yams and taro (i.e. a ‘tropical food kit’)—all supports a strong Southeast Asian connection from at least the eighth century onwards
It's actually the combination of both ancient migration from 1200 years ago and colonialism from Srivijaya that make up the demographic of the Madagascar
>>1213674
>proto comes first, deutero later
Of course many anthropologist/archaeologist would say there are more than one wave of migration into SEA. But to say that some people (Batak, philippines etc) is proto malay is foolish, unless they're some uncontacted tribes or something. We're all mixing for thousand years.
Look at the definition here :
>Deutro malays: hindu-buddhists civilisation turned muslim on malaysia, sumatra, java and coastal borneo
>Proto malays: tribal societies turned christian or muslim on borneo, celebes, moluccas timor, and philippines
Compare with from wiki:
>They are kindred but more Mongolised and greatly distinguished from the Proto-Malays which have shorter stature, darker skin, slightly higher frequency of wavy hair, much higher percentage of dolichocephaly and a markedly lower frequency of the epicanthic fold.[38]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malays_%28ethnic_group%29#Deutero-Malays
>>1213689
It was not a "colony", they developed on their own as a Swahili-Austronesian people. No Javanese, Sumatran or Malaysian empire controlled or ran it. They assimilated into the Creole population.
The languages have been pointed out to show a two tier Malaysian migration that influenced the Austronesian spoken in Madagascar.
>>1213765
check, Im specifically referring to historical and cultural difference
of course they all mixed, but to a different degrees, the thing is, the protos IS consisted of tribal ethnics and are largely isolated and uncontacted, which explains why they didn't adopt foreign influences
refer to the map >>1213674
each group refer to different period of migration and mixes, the green flores-banda group for example, indicates mix with melanesians
>>1213797
It's a 'colony'. But they are not as organized as modern-colonialism. If you have to compare it with modern colonialism, it's pretty much the combination of free colonialism of the Thirteenth Colony and Spanish-style interbreeding with native. The reason why Srivijaya didn't influence Madagascar even further is probably because
a) the colonialism pretty much begin during late of the Srivijayan's golden age. And pretty much cut off from the capital support when the kingdom collapse
b) It's not actually state-supported. The people just do their own thing and government was like 'why not?'
>>1213888
It was not a colony of Srivijaya, the proto-Malagasy developed on the east African coast and then settled in Madagascar.
That is not the same as an intentional expedition to find and settle Madagascar until (supposedly) much later with one group of people who absorbed into Creole autonomous populations.
We're austronesian right but that doesn't mean we were subjects or under anyone's thumb, there is no recordings of that and it's rather nationalist revisioning to state otherwise.
>>1213898
Like I said in>>1213689, it's BOTH settler from Srivijaya and migration by ancient Austronesian. I'm not denying any migration prior the Srivijayan era. However whether they are under direct rule of Srivijaya or not is still debated till this day. Probably they were an autonomous region to set up as a base for Srivijayan hegemony in Africa. Probably they are just bunch of Malay merchants who set up a trade hub in Madagascar and did their own thing without any intervention from the government. Or probably they are refugees who run away from Srivijayan rule. Much of the evidence are lost thanks to tropical climate that make thing rot faster than internet meme.
>>1213987
There is no "debate" there isn't evidence of direct rule and no malagasy historian has ever seriously stated so.
It's not in the oral or written history of any Malagasy group.
>>1212727
East Timor is Christian
>>1212670
>Made it better.
Aren't you a flip?
>>1214356
>No oral or written tradition.
>Most Malagasy culture are heavily influenced by Indonesian pre-islamic culture.
>Genetic evidence.
>Cultural and artifact evidence.
>y-yeah, we were not influenced and settled by Srivijayan traders guy. We totally develop all the shit by ourselves.
>>1214435
There is a oral and written tradition
you're conflating being of Malay ancestry/culture and being ruled or directly controlled by Srivijaya -which never happened- especially given the understanding Malagasy.
>>1214447
Wait, do you deny the existence of Srivijayan settler and trader on Madagascar or do you deny the Srivijayan control over Madagascar? Or perhaps you imagine the Srivijayan colonialism mean Srivijaya totally controlled the whole island and build temple all over the island? Or perhaps some part Madagascar was controlled by Srivijaya but since Madagascar is too big, their influence is less signification. And pretty much died along with the Empire. Also just because there is no oral or written history doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just like how the existence of Srivijaya or any unknown ancient Malay kingdom prior islamization were only discovered later by western historian. For example regarding Srivijaya
>There had been no continuous knowledge of the history of Srivijaya even in Indonesia; its forgotten past has been resurrected by foreign scholars. Contemporary Indonesians, even those from the area of Palembang (around which the kingdom was based), had not heard of Srivijaya until the 1920s when the French scholar, George Coedès, published his discoveries and interpretations in the Dutch and Indonesian-language newspapers.[9]
>>1212751
The Spic presence in the Philippines WAS largely a trading post consisting of fortified towns trading with the Chinks, locals, and other Southeast Asians for Asian products paid for by silver from the Americans.
The Spics came into control in the Philippines through conversion of Animist natives who thought Muslim Flips were assholes and via local politics of "Toughest kid in the block = automatically in Charge." Most of the people controlling the natives for Spain were more often than not the converted local nobility whom the Spanish turned into minor nobles.
And then the loss of Latin America in the early 1800's forced Spain to focus on remaining colonies like Cuba and the Philippines, marking the first time ever they came under direct rule.
>>1214447
Just because your great-great-great-grandmother didn't tell you that she was raped by big Malay cock, doesn't mean that the rape never happen. Admit it. You were once a Srivijayan's bitch. Cultural, linguistic, metalworking, shipbuilding, instrument, cultivation of native Indonesian plant, etc. Who the hell care if soft evidence like oral or written tradition didn't exist? There are fuckload of hard evidences there.
>>1214634
forgot to add genetic.
>>1214530
>Srivijayan control over Madagascar
They never controlled Madagascar, Merina claim decent centuries beforehand of some later population that assimilated into the Creole population rather quickly.
They learned the hierarchical structure that later dominated the highlands through the adoption of Vazimba practices and politics.
>>1214634
>>1214639
Madagascar was inhabited before the formation Srivijaya, the cultural and genetic influences of Malay is not the same as being under the control of Srivijaya elite.
The citystate dissolved around the time it is said Merina's non-vazimba ancestors came from. These people did no float over and rule the whole island, they said to have been refugees quickly picked off by pre-existing coastal groups and having run up to the mountains assimilated into the social systems of Vazimba.
There is a difference.
It was not a Srivajayan colony, it was a malay-swahili inhabited island that later got a small population of Srivajayan peoples as well as Arabs and Indians.
Stop conflating Srivajayan with Malay, it's anachronistic.
>>1212794
>Their biggest mistake is they didn't convert to Christianity adopt western culture to ride those western golden bandwagon.
That doesn't work if they don't see you as equals.
>>1214356
the guy in the left and the middle could pass here as an indonesian. man its mind blowning to think our ancestor sailed all the way there thousand years ago.
>>1216586
What's weirder is they had to have sailed from Maldives to do so, that would mean they were sailing blind to Madagascar and the East African coast or they hugged Asia and Africa against the currents to reach Madagascar.
Anything directly from Malaysia would have been death, way too long.
It's so weird how these mixed austronesian-Melanesians did so well, it kinda makes you realize travelling wasn't as hard as people make you think
>>1216455
Except Portuguese actually recognize Malacca as equal with their own. The only reason why Malacca lost to Portuguese because Portuguese have better tactic and better high command while Malaccan were too dependent on foreign mercenary who later were bribed by Portuguese. Hell, the Portuguese even recognize that Malaccan musket and cannon are better than their own. You must remember that Sumateran, Malayan and Javan kingdoms are pretty much as civilized as China, Indian kingdoms, Ottoman, Persian, some Arabian countries.
I know a guy from tonga and he's a dick
>these peoples languages stretch from Madagascar, to Hawaii, to New Zealand, to Taiwan, and in between
Ok seriously what the fuck
>>1220412
Boats
>>1220415
That is still beyond absurd for it to be so widespread
>>1220418
It's beyond absurd for humans to have gone to the moon but it happened
>>1221131
Maccasars went there to trade for Sea cucumbers.
They had integrated Islam into native prayers, intermixed to some degree a lot of rape happened apparently and also spread smallpox.
Never stayed though because the soil was shit and the place had no real resources they wanted bouts I de Indra cucumber.
>>1221585
Other than the sea cucumber
>Andrianampoinimerina was born Ramboasalamarazaka (short form: Ramboasalama)[1] around 1745 in Ikaloy, in central Madagascar, to Princess Ranavalonandriambelomasina, daughter of King Andriambelomasina of Imerina (1730-1770), and her husband Andriamiaramanjaka...
Were there people in Madagascar who were proffesionally trained to untwist tongues
Here's a funny one, during the Spanish-American war a detachment of soldiers holed up in a church for a long time. The filipinos tried to convince them that the war was over but they only surrended after the captain recognised someone he knew in a newspaper. They came out of the church 6 months after the war had ended.
>>1221585
>They had integrated Islam into native prayers
elaborate
>>1212694
Okay..well this seems a valid way of suicide over there..
>At Peikapw, a place of prayer, Isokelekel saw his reflection in a pool of water and, realizing his old age, decided to commit suicide. According to one legend, he tied his penis to the top of a young palm tree. Letting go of the bent tree, his penis was torn off, and Isokelekel bled to death
Groovy.
>>1221917
As an Indonesian speaker that's not so tongue twisting for me, just long names.
>>1220418
You don't understand. Forget the Irish, forget the Vikings, the real boat people are Southeast Asians and Polynesians.
."When Islam came to Australia". BBC News Magazine.
> ...a figure called Walitha'walitha, which is worshipped by a clan of the Yolngu people on Elcho Island, off the northern coast of Arnhem Land. The name derives from the Arabic phrase "Allah ta'ala", meaning "God, the exalted".
>Walitha'walitha is closely associated with funeral rituals, which can include other Islamic elements like facing west during prayers - roughly the direction of Mecca - and ritual prostration reminiscent of the Muslim sujood. "I think it would be hugely oversimplifying to suggest that this figure is Allah as the 'one true God'," says Howard Morphy, an anthropologist at Australian National University. It's more the case of the Yolngu people adopting an Allah-like figure into their cosmology, he suggests.
>>1220412
Austronesian empire when?
>>1223382
Not until Maluku and West Papua are liberated + the integration or autonomy of of Côiter Malagasy is complete.
But if it were secular, Indos in NL and others in the Diaspora would be great, a truly global austronesian place.
>>1223297
>mfw technically I live in an Islamic Country
neato.
>>1212168
I read in a book - a thoroughly unscientific one - that Papuans, being mostly integrated with the ocean and harvesting its resources, built oceangoing rafts and sailed south to the Tip of Queensland (the pointy bit on Australia's north-east) 20,000 years before the invention of the Compass or Oceangoing vessels.
>>1221585
It's kind of funny that you give the reason as 'the soil was shit' as the reason they fucked off.
Ming Dynasty pottery fragments were found on the coast of Northeastern Queensland. Presumably, the Chinese came south to trade, found that the natives had nothing of value and that the land was mostly an impenetrable tropical wasteland full of death, and left it alone.
The Dutch touched down in Northwestern Australia, which is basically where Desert meets the sea. Finding that the place was totally uninhabitable, they fucked off too. The French did much the same.
Even the English, at their first initial landing, came in to land at a location north of Sydney where there are many hidden reefs and rocks. Several ships sank, but the surviving ones managed to land (and were reportedly attacked by the Aboriginals). They couldn't grow anything there, and NEARLY left; but for some reason they decided to go out and down the coast a bit and they found a place that was much better. But not much. It's half the reason it was a penal colony; because it was such a barren, desolate place.
>>1223435
Yeah it is neat
Yes aboriginals are the originals seagoers but it was from Sunda to Sahul
Chinese probably didn't come to Australia, it was likely a go between like Bugis. They found a Kilwa (Swahili) coin as well, probably Malay were middlemen as well.
>>1223476
Australia - fuck off, you can't live here since 1600
>>1223848
Says who?
>>1223205
>commit suicide by ripping your penis off with a tree
what the fuck, Polynesia.
>>1223882
Micronesia actually.
>>1223382
The closest one in history is probably majapahit empire or nusantara, a hindu - buddhist kingdom which rule most of present day indonesia, malaysia, brunei, singapore, and south thailand, but thats just cover the south east asian part and minus the philipines
You need unifying factor in order for this to work, and austronesians are really diverse and didn't have that, nusantara could work though due to similar culture, islam, and same malay language
>>1224727
Forgot pict
>>1224733
my dick
>>1224733
Stop including melanesian-austronesian Christian Maluku and West Papua.
It's literally got nothing to do with Austronesian people, it's Javanese expansionism.
>>1227933
Thanks anon :3
>>1225846
There's some pretty hectic shit going on in West Papua I've heard?
>>1227940
there are freeport workers getting assasinated, human right abuses, tribal clans warring each other in the streets. the usual papuan stuff, the place itself is really beautiful though
>>1212168
Bump
Don't die on me, we need this.
>>1225846
indonesia, malaysia, and philippine is one of those post colonial mess where the country borders are defined by areas formerly ruled by either dutch, brits, and spain, though not as bad as in africa or middle east, the same problem happen in most of south east asia
in malaysia the tribal dayaks people of borneo are dominated by peninsular malayans, on the other hand malaysia didn't even cover most of traditional malay teritories, which includes sumatra, coastal borneo, and south thailand since the whole territorial arrangement was messed up by brits, dutch and thais
philippine also has the same problem where tagalog vs bisayan ethnic rivalries happens very often, not to mention the bangsamoro mindanao conflict happen as result of forced post colonial integration by the philippine government
in indonesia this means the largest ethnic, the javanese dominates the other hundreds of ethnicities, it creates many problems, but the particular problem of papuan conflict is not because of javanism since they didn't really discriminate against other ethnicities (except the chinese maybe) but more because of indonesian wanting more resources from the area and general indonesian attitude disliking people of darker skin
Probably it's wrong to ask here, because you people seem to mix in current political conditions in the debates.
Anyways, how was the relationship between pre-Islamic Javanese states and the pre-colonial Philippines? I know there were some trade going on, at least. But did intermarriages between nobles happen? Or was it only between Indochinese and Javanese/Malay states?
>>1230846
>since they didn't really discriminate against other ethnicities (except the chinese maybe) but more because of indonesian wanting more resources from the area and general indonesian attitude disliking people of darker skin
If they dislike dark skin people and want the land with which dark skin people live on and don't want to give dark skin people with resources power it sounds like discrimination.
>>1212960
So... the Greeks really aren't white after all?
>>1232047
Nah, it means that the category "white" is a social construct.
>>1232062
At least in terms of genetics, I'm sure you could measure skin tone and base whiteness off that..
>>1232060
They have the right to represent themselves regardless of what you think the conclusion will be. East Timor went through hell as had Maluku and now in West Papua this all could have been avoided has the colonial powers either not been bitches or actually cared about their former subjects.
>>1231264
>how was the relationship between pre-Islamic Javanese states and the pre-colonial Philippines?
Other than trade and occasionally piracy, pretty sure Malay-Javan don't give a shit about Philippines region. Don't know about Mollucan and the Islands though.
>>1231264
>>1233828
The earliest known written document found in the philippines, the Laguna copperplate inscription was written using a mix of classical Malay, Javanese, and Tagalog language.
The use of kawi script indicate that the maker of the document has connection to Srivijaya, the document mention clearing of debts and loyalty of certain prehispanic ruler Namwaran of Binwagan to lord of dewata of Medang, assumed to be Medang kingdom in Java
>>1233828
Manila started as an outpost by the Bruneian Empire actually.
Muhammad Ali died, he was like me an African American of partial Malagasy descent.
Kinda sad honestly. But also let's keep the thread going, happy it's gotten so far since I thought it would not last a day when I made it :-P
