Why does China suck at war?
>>1207032
>Why does China suck at war?
yeah burger, that's the right way to go. just piss'em off.
>>1207048
Is that CIA?
>>1207032
>muh art of war
>>1207048
what are they gonna do, nuke us
>>1207076
>>1207075
>trusting your Eunuch to give good advice
>ever
I mean to be fair Zhengtong was only 22
>>1207084
Perfidious.
>>1207032
I can't seem to find it, but I read an essay way back that started off with the premise that in preindustrial times, the way an agricultural society fights and the way a pastoral society fights are quite different. Agricultural societies are much more focused on trying to do quick and decisive battles, whether or not you have the maximum advantage when engaging.
Pastoral societies tend to want to maneuver a lot more, strive for maximum advantage before committing, they usually don't have the population base to absorb large losses, and the opportunity costs of a prolonged conflict are less.
China is an agricultural society that typically fought the way a pastoral society fought. This probably has to do with the military influence the steppe nomads had on China's military culture without a corresponding effect on their wider culture.
>>1207085
Is that the most emberassing military defeat in history ? Even a kid who play Total War can't be that bad a commander
>>1207032
Logistics
>>1207085
>only 22
History offers several examples of younger succesful commanders and rulers.
>>1207032
They are good at killing their fellow country men, not foreign invaders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll
What you really mean is
>why did the Qing Dynasty suck at war
Refusal to adapt, terrible leadership, and arrogance which led to the previous two.
Communist Chinese forces from WWII to the Korean War were some of the toughest motherfuckers in East Asia and had arguably the best infantry in all of Asia during that time period.
>>1207236
>Communist Chinese forces from WWII to the Korean War were some of the toughest motherfuckers in East Asia and had arguably the best infantry in all of Asia during that time period.
human
wave
attack
>>1207032
Most of what is now deemed "China proper" was conquered from non Chinese.
>It's another episode of Chinese getting humiliation military defeat
>>1207048
UUUU
>>1207241
It was called the "short attack" and it took some balls and clever tactics to pull off. Why are you even on a history board if you're going to use reddit tier pop history memes?
>>1207253
>getting offended by good-natured memes and bantz on 4chan
bro..
>>1207245
>opening a dam
nice
>>1207032
Chinese aren't white and their society is collectivist so they are inclined to be generally bad at war.
>>1207245
>each man on average killed 30
how does this even happen
>>1207280
Professional soldiers VS conscripts, I guess.
̶T̶̶h̶̶e̶ ̶N̶̶o̶̶r̶̶t̶̶h̶ Chinese Remember
>>1207032
You can notice the positive French opinion of Russia in the way he's drawn in this picture. Interesting touch.
>>1207280
>When the Sui army had reached Salsu the water level was shallow, as Eulji Mundeok had already cut off the flow of water with a dam. When the Sui troops were halfway across the river, Eulji opened the dam and the onslaught of water drowned thousands of Sui soldiers. The Goguryeo cavalry then charged the remaining Sui forces.
>>1207304
How does that even happen?
Whereas most European states unified or at least formed their identities in the 18th-19th centuries, China has only really unified in the latter half of the 20th. During the late Qing they were quite decentralized with generals acting as warlords of their region, and these arrangements persisted beyond the Qing and the Republic until the PRC unified China. Could explain why they did so poorly against well-organized outside invaders.
Another aspect to consider is that the Chinese traditionally prized civilian administration much higher than the military, leading to a preference for levying (extremely unmotivated) troops augmented by foreign mercenaries as opposed to a professional standing army. Generals in charge of powerful standing armies have an unfortunate tendency to become disloyal and wield disproportionate power, which did happen a few times when they tried more powerful standing armies.
>>1207105
Doesn't it have to do with how sedentary agricultural societies need to be home for autumn in order to harvest? An explanation could be that China's already large population base allowed for year-round military operations. One should also take into account land distribution and the need for peasants to stay home or fight.
For example a more evenly distributed society like the early Punic Wars Roman Republic could not fight in the autumn, while as wealthy landowners bought out poorly serviced farms (as campaigns grew longer, war took its toll on economy, etc.) there was a larger unemployed or sharecropper population to draw soldiers from, some would say necessitating the Marian Reforms.
>>1207311
yeah, even the Mongols wondered why, how could someone that stupid was allowed to command ?
>>1207245
The Wei Dynasty from the Three Kingdoms had a lot more success with them
>>1207075
One word: Horse archers.
>>1207311
Mongols man
>>1207336
Please elaborate
>>1207350
They're like ninjas.. on horses.. and.theyre undefeatable.
>>1207236
>be PRC
>get BTFO by gooks still recovering from the royal buttfucking the US gave them
lmao
>>1207381
Vietnam has a long history of BTFOing Chinese armies since 900 AD. It's nothing new. Vietnam is like the official Ass-Kicker-of-China.
>>1207386
>After the battle, King Quang Trung ordered the bodies of the enemies to be collected and put into 12 big burials which became large hills or mounds. These 12 hills were spread from Quang Thịnh to Nam Đông village. As they became overgrown with banyan trees the landscape came to be called Đống Đa, literally Heap of Banyan trees
Based Quang Trung, He throwed Chinese copses into a pit until it's became large mound, as epic as Timur's head pyramids.
>>1207420
Brutal. Don't mess with the Vietnamese.
>>1207443
If the Vietnamese are so great then how'd they lose to the French of all people?
>>1207495
>lose to the French of all people?
>>1207032
>Why does China suck at war?
Nah. China's meh tier at best but it doesnt suck. You have to hold on to a big fucking empire after all.
Also China pulled one of the most successful premodern/pregunpowder campaigns versus Steppe Nomads ever. Rome couldn't do that even on it's best day.
>>1207563
>Also China pulled one of the most successful premodern/pregunpowder campaigns versus Steppe Nomads ever. Rome couldn't do that even on it's best day.
The Tang in Central Asia too. Not to mention absolutely buttfucking Yamato-Baekje at Baekgang.
>>1207495
>falling for le white flag meme
>>1207280
>>1207245
Salsu is actually a case of both Korean AND Chinese fugging up with numbers in history.
The Goguryeo obviously since they were the victors seeking to make themselves gr8 by exagerrating the numbers they faced/people they killed, but also the Chinese as well since the history of the short lived Sui is largely done by the T'ang Dynasty, who was busy making the Sui dynasty look super-incompetent to justify its own rule.
>>1207575
>had a great military history for a thousand years
>lost a war
>le surrender meme
>>1207386
Somebody's gotta do it
>>1207596
It's about time that Viets got a win or two against China considering that China literally owned them for 1000 years.
>>1207386
Vietnam is the real graveyard of empires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Vietnam
>>1207640
There was no Vietnam prior to Sinicization.
>>1207075
>>1207108
>>1207304
>>1207311
Very few were actually killed. What happened was that they were on an expedition and fought the Mongols in the desert. The eunuch brought them to Tumu which had no water nearby when their logistic line was cut off by the Mongols. Without logistics, a large army cannot fight, especially in the desert and the emperor was captured.
>>1207650
They defeated Duth East Asia in a battle in 1643 too, crazy.
>>1207682
*Dutch east india company
Considering the Chinese had like 1500 years of Empires since the Qin, I'd say their military incompetence is a meme.
The Chinese imperial system allowed for amazing generals, and amazingly shit generals. Depends on the corruption and luck of the draw.
For example, the Qianlong Emperor expanded China to an extent rivaling Canada as the second largest nation (in 1820).
Also, China fought so many wars and so many battles that there's going to be some horrible losses tossed in.
At the same time, Chinese (and nearby civilizations) history is full of propaganda and exaggeration.
Much of the time, wikipedia battles in China are 3-4x larger than they were, and the casualties were 3-4x higher than what really happened.
This goes both ways of course.
>>1207650
And ironically, the Tran were a heavily Sinicized/Chinese dynasty that drew heavily upon fleeing Song officials when battling the Mongols.
>>1207835
Tran was basically Chinese.
>>1207839
Not only were they "basically" Chinese, they were also founded by a Fujianese family.
>>1207823
>Considering the Chinese had like 1500 years of Empires since the Qin
Chinese history is a vicious cycle
>Fucked each other
>Get fucked by foreigners (nomad, Jap, Western etc...)
>Fucked each other
>repeat
>>1207866
You might want to do some research on the subject. The Tran dynasty was founded by Chinese from Fujian, who wrote and spoke Chinese, practiced Chinese culture, and never forgot their origin. They overthrew the Ly dynasty so had legitimate rule. It may not have been a dynasty of 'China' but it was certainly a dynasty of 'Chinese'.
>>1207901
I don't deny that China has had its ups and downs but which ancient country hasn't? Compared to Greece, India, Persia, Egypt, etc, China has been "fucked over" far, far less.
>>1207901
>Get fucked by foreigners (nomad, Jap, Western etc...)
You can't really call any of those part of a "cycle" of any sort apart from the steppe, possibly. The Japanese only started fucking them during the late Qing and the same goes for Western powers. Neither of those two were any real threat to China until the 19th/20th centuries.
>>1207901
>Fucked each other
Only because China literally cannot fuck anyone else, because whenever they do fuck anyone else they fuck them so hard they become Chinese retroactively and thereby become fucking "each other."
As mentioned in >>1207243 China started out as a few small tribes in the Wei river valley that fucked the continent so hard it became China.
>>1207927
>people who setled since 227 AD, got their blood mixed and mingled for 1000 years
> Chinese
>>1207959
>Qing dynasty conquest of Ming Dynasty
>25,000,000 deaths
>still gets assimilation
I guess if the Manchu invented the gas chamber back then. Everything could be different now.
>>1207960
Nope. The Tran family lived in Dai Viet for about 4-5 generations before taking the throne.
Before I even learned Vietnamese history, many years ago I had a Vietnamese math teacher who mentioned that people with the Tran surname are Chinese. I always wondered what he meant by that.
>>1207992
They setled since 227 AD, Han era . Exactly because the conflict between Han dynasty and Nam Viet that time, they sided with Viet and lived in Kinh Bac, a place in North Viet Nam that time
Source : descendants of Tran family
http://www.donghotrannguyenhan.com.vn/tin-tuc/919/TIM-HIEU-VE-GOC-TICH-HO-TR%E1%BA%A6N.html
>>1208008
Sounds like historical revisionism to conform to modern Vietnamese nationalism that tries to sever any connections with China.
Going by primary sources the Tran family lived in Dai Viet for only 4-6 generations. If they migrated 1000 years earlier then how the fuck do you think the descendants were able to still speak Chinese.
https://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA120&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>1208037
>Going by primary sources the Tran family lived in Dai Viet for only 4-6 generations. If they migrated 1000 years earlier then how the fuck do you think the descendants were able to still speak Chinese.
>https://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA120&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
>A western book about VN history is more convince than VN people themself
>>1207866
Even the nativist Le dynasty claimed that the Hung Kings were descended from Shennong.
Now we have Vietnamese trying to claim Shennong was Vietnamese.
>>1207959
>China started out as a few small tribes in the Wei river valley that fucked the continent so hard it became China.
I would say the Zhou concept of Zhuxia or Hua was the first attempt at defining a cultural "China".
Prior to this you have independent Sinitic polities of the Fen/Wei river valley. Some of the Fang polities may have been Sino-Tibetan as well(Gong,Gui,Tu,Qiang etc.)
>>1208063
*Independent of of the Shang theocracy.
>>1208044
No, it's based on the official historical records of Vietnam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Đại_Việt_sử_ký_toàn_thư
>>1208116
There is no mention of Tran still speak Chinese when they came to power in Đại Việt Sử Ký
http://tusach.thuvienkhoahoc.com/wiki/%C4%90%E1%BA%A1i_Vi%E1%BB%87t_S%E1%BB%AD_K%C3%BD_B%E1%BA%A3n_K%E1%BB%B7_To%C3%A0n_Th%C6%B0_5:_Nh%C3%A0_Tr%E1%BA%A7n_1255_-_1293,_Ph%E1%BA%
>>1208161
http://tusach.thuvienkhoahoc.com/wiki/%C4%90%E1%BA%A1i_Vi%E1%BB%87t_S%E1%BB%AD_K%C3%BD_B%E1%BA%A3n_K%E1%BB%B7_To%C3%A0n_Th%C6%B0_7:_Nh%C3%A0_Tr%E1%BA%A7n_(1330_-_1377)
>>1207032
For a while China was so big and so isolated comapred to everywhere else that they just forgot there was anything worth shit outside their borders, maybe some nomads up north and buddhists down south, then the emperors thought the rest of the world would never catch up.
The stereotype of the "bloated decadent eastern empire" became true for them at the worst possible time. I mean even before they were already doing retarded shit like burying sages alive but they stagnated badly and refused to modernize or take action against the threats encroaching upon them, and let's be fair, China has almost always been the most populated region on all of Earth, it's not easy to fix the problems of a nation with the population of a continent, so it was a case of too little, too late. Still, China's strength has always been that due to its size and scale it always ends up culturally conquering its conquerors over time, just ask the Mongols and Manchus.
>>1208169
>China's strength has always been that due to its size and scale it always ends up culturally conquering its conquerors over time, just ask the Mongols and Manchus.
It's only workd on nomad. if Russia or America conquer China, next hundred year, China will be subjugated and gets absorbed to Western Sphere, like they are slowly doing. You can't barely recognize the Chinese no, they wear Western clothes, using Wester technologies and living in Western style buildings.
>>1208044
not him but western scholarship is much more trustworthy and credible considering their neutrality.
>>1208200
>You can't barely recognize the Chinese no, they wear Western clothes, using Wester technologies and living in Western style buildings.
This is simply not true.
>>1207032
While Charlemagne was still in his fathers ballsack the Chinese were fighting Arabs tho...
>>1208044
>A western book about VN history is more convince than VN people themself
Yes? How is that a strange at all?
>>1210513
And lost against them in Talas. Charles Martel, grandfather of Charlmagne, defeated the arabs a couple of decades before the Battle of Talas even happened.
>>1210652
I am sorry but that wasn't really the point I was trying to make, I meant that the Chinese were advancing so far west they met Arabs.
OP makes a blanket statement covering presumable 5000 years of history and I am not sure I fully agree with him.
>>1210652
>lost because Karluk and Ferghana mercenaries defected to numerically-superior Arabs during the golden age of Arab military might.
