Why is Africa so undeveloped?
inb4 muh colonialism
muh colonialism
that map show HDI by the way
>the truth has to conform to my world view
Colonialism
>>1205660
Low IQ.
>>1205663
libera was never colonised and it is still a shithole
>>1205674
are you pretending to be stupid?
>>1205680
>Liberia is a country in West Africa which was founded, established, colonized, and controlled by citizens of the United States and ex-Caribbean slaves as a colony for former African
>>1205660
Isolated area, hard to anthropize yet still bountiful land means less development.
>judging a non-western entity by western standards and asking why it doesn't hold up
>>1205684
Libera was funded by ex american slaves you retard
>>1205693
It's literally a product of colonization
>>1205660
Nigger colonialism.
![4ef1c2d33db0492db77ebbb05e9425e7[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Bk9xASw.jpg "4ef1c2d33db0492db77ebbb05e9425e7[1].jpg")
>>1205660
it's almost as if humans were some kind of 'consuming' creatures and they leave behind their trash after using up all that's good.
well, except Turkey/Greece for some reason, nostalgia perhaps?
>>1205660
Colonialism
Lack of arable land
Lack of contact to the Mediterranean (cradle of civilization) because of the fucking Sahara
>>1205660
no good resources, shitty landscape
wild animals everywhere
south africa is pretty developed though
everyone that said <"colonialism" can you pls explain what it did so wrong. they were living in mudhuts and hunting rhinos before the white man came.
>>1205732
>south africa is pretty developed though
No, it isn't.
>>1205660
>Greenland gets the same score as Denmark
>>1205744
it is
>>1205756
No, it's not
>>1205732
>they were living in mudhuts and hunting rhinos before the white man came
No, they weren't, at least not all of them
However the major issue with colonialism is that the Europeans destroyed the pre-existing social structures of Africa and replaced it with direct colonial rule when they then left in the late 20th century the colonial powers didn't allow the Africans to form their own states but simply replaced the colonial officals with locals keeping up a "quasi-colonial" system that simply doesn't work out if you're not ruled over
>>1205688
>people starving because they're literally too stupid to farm
>oh they're not a failure you're just a racist
Africa is undeveloped because of africans.
They are stupid, disorganised, corrupt, have a massive sense of entitlement, scape goat the whites for everything, have a tribal mentality, and are highly prone to commit crime.
T. Someone who has lived in South Africa all his life.
>>1205660
watch Empires of Dust
>>1205660
Tsetse fly
>>1205800
>people starving because they're literally too stupid to farm
Zimbabwe is one country in Africa anon
>>1205693
The slaves grew up surrounded by Anglo-American culture, spoke English, and wore Western clothing.
>>1205825
So?
Zimbabwe was turned from the breadbasket of Africa into an absolute shithole, no other country has fucked up that much
>>1205837
I'm saying that it's one unique example when compared to the entire African continent.
Ethiopia for example had one of the worst famines in modern history because of a decade long drought, not because they forgot how to farm.
>>1205732
Colonialism is not about the white man settling in Africa, that is not bad in an of it itself. It is colonial powers interfering with politics, and destroying the political process of the people, making development near impossible. Every time Africans would find a ruler that cared about the people, he was assassinated and replaced by a murdering dictator who would sell cheap contracts to France.
>>1205771
Also this.
>>1205674
Liberia is a shit hole because the US funded a coup against the Americo-Liberians in favor of an anti-commie government.
>>1205771
They had there chance once the last of the colonists left. Instead of taking charge they let everything go to shit.
They don't have guns germs or steel read a book you plebs.
>>1205845
>They had there chance once the last of the colonists left
The people who were left in charge after the colonial nations left had no experience in running a modern nation. They were by and large military men who were drafted into Weatern armies, and thus knew only how to manage a war economy and little else. Think Warlord Era China where you had different idealoges fighting for dominance in the power vacuum left behind. It was a recipe for disaster that few African nations had managed to escape.
Material conditions, caused by a legacy of colonialsm capitalism, and imperialism, which brought the African region into the modern world without attempting to develop it from its primitive roots.
>Africans are too stupid to farm
It's not that at all. It's simply that the economies of many African states depend on the exports of cash crops. While they could lessen hunger by switching to mass wheat farms, this would plummet African economies which might even make things worse. Of course, African governments could their economies self-reliant. This would only lead to their leaders ending up like Patrice Lumumba, however.
Therefore, Africans do have choice in what's going on yet it would be stupid to deny that there isn't a neocolonial influence in their choices.
>>1205660
Why so much denial? It is literally colonialism through and through.
Africa was pretty developed in both Ancient and Medieval times, but went to shit because it was the first target of Europeans and remained under them the longest time.
>>1205901
why so much excuses?
lots of countries were colonized too; and arent as shit as the african ones.
>>1205901
>africa was pretty developed in medieval times. KEKED most of the sub saharan didnt even had a written language
>>1205901
literally every contry in the "new world" was a colony
>>1205904
Colonialism wasn't everywhere the same
>>1205660
Deserts, Jungles, shit land, shit diseases, shit trade connections (compared to eurasia), lack of abundant domesticated animals, shit government systems (lack of ideas spreading there caused this), and finally they got screwed over late in the game as they tore each other apart for slave trading.
>>1205921
excuses, excuses. Japan was literally nuked not long ago and its better of than these africans. They always blame the past for theire failures
>>1205910
Neither did the Incas or Mongolians, but there's a reason for this in West and Southern Africa.
Everything was passed down orally via Griots, who were storytellers, historians, and accountants all rolled into one. They held a lot of power and prestige, which meant that any attempts at a written language in West Africa were stifled by them. Kind of like how the Ottoman Imams banned the printing press on the grounds that it would take language away from the hands of the Preist caste.
>>1205917
And all but a handful are shit.
>>1205660
Niggers
>>1205935
Are you retarded?
>>1205935
Japan kept its emperor, industry, and societal structure. The only African countries that had the same privileges are landlocked, barren shitholes like Swaziland.
>>1205949
But all of them are better than the african ones;
>>1205935
and japan had 2 generations of modernizing, a modern economy, infrastructure and a highly educated population.
Africans had mud huts.
Asia and South America were also colonized and aren't nearly as hellish as Africa. I wonder if it had anything to do with race. Compare say Dominican republic and haiti.
>>1205960
Because the ruling class is still mostly European educated and came from families that were experiences in running the country.
Africa had none of that, all the Post-colonial rulers were Military Wingnuts who had no idea what the fuck they were doing and honestly didn't care about the country and its people.
Read some Easterly, faggot
No one wants an actual answer, they wont accept anything more nuanced than "lol niggers". Sage and move on
GGS has a lot of flaws but they had unsuitable clay for rewarding traits since they had no winters
Shitty genetics.
>>1205860
>falling for guns germs steel meme
Top kek
Read a book that isn't just pophist faggot
Adopting the worst form of development due to outside influence for years and listening to imf and wb.
Now it's on track but the best years for developing are passed so not much support from the U.S
>>1205980
Dominican Republic is total ass that only looks okay because it's near Haiti.
It's still a big shithole.
>>1205959
Tswana were able to keep their political and social structure because it helped a fuckton in its independence since the brits had no use for Botswana as it had nothing of interest and diamonds only became big after it was discovered post independence and the diamond industry making diamonds a hot commodity through ad campaigns for cosmetic diamonds.
>>1205840
Zimbabwe and the rest of southern Africa is experiencing massive droughts though.
Like the past few years cllimate change really fucked up the weather and the extremes are getting worse.
>>1205756
>cherrypicks a photo of a nice part
>>1205767
>cherrypicks a photo of a shitty part as a rebuttal
This is why arguments on 4chan will always be fucking garbage. Go read a real book about African history, people--don't rely on this place to actually teach you anything, especially not a subject that's going to bring the /pol/sters out of the woodwork.
>>1206073
>Tfw Peruvian
So glad I was blessed with god-tier genetics.
>>1206216
what did you expect from an IMAGEboard.
Its poor on natural resources.
>>1206173
Yeah now go compare GDP per capita and hdi and get back to me.
>>1206263
Yeah Dr is less shit but it's still a shithole.
Slave trade raided and exported human capital from midcontinent
Tropical diseases
Colonialism more brutal and more recent than in New World
Decolonization was hasty mess
Resources exploited with little/no reinvestment by West, USSR, now China
>>1205674
Just because the colonizers were black doesn't mean it doesn't count.
>>1205901
Ethiopia was only a colony for 5 years, had a proper state beforehand and is still one of the poorest countries one earth. The problem with blaming colonialism for the lack of proper states ( I.e liberal democracies) was that beforehand they didn't have proper states and didn't seem to be in the process of developing them ( Fulani jihads are my example here). The worst part about colonialism was probably the fact that the local elites confused it entirely with capitalism leading them to chose silly socialist policies ( e.g Tanzania, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe etc). This contributed to preventing growth. Look at Ethiopia, it currently has a growth rate of circa 8% due to catching up from years of silly policies/war/famine and a (relatively) good government which is investing in education, infrastructure and agriculture within a capitalist system. It still suffers from some regulations preventing the poor from starting businesses/opening bank accounts/accessing telecoms but it has made great strides in recent years. Most of Africa was under colonial rule or two generations.
>>1206073
This map has nothing to do with genetics
Because dindus literally can't do nuffin on their own
>>1206248
Africa is rich as fuck in natural resources, are you retarded?
Rubber, oil, gold, ivory, gemstones, rare metals...
>>1206378
>that beforehand they didn't have proper states and didn't seem to be in the process of developing them ( Fulani jihads are my example here).
Based on the area.
Many had political entities, states and many had the desire to modernize or conduct further contact with the rest.
It was neither due to colonialism or /pol/'s "theory".
It was due to lack of security after independence, new technology leading to arms proliferation and cold war proxy wars. Even if a country achieved peace it suffered from political instability and repressive corrupt regimes.
>>1207332
True but back then the rare earth's of was no use until discoveries later on.
Many of these resources have a flaw to them and in many cases a curse. Oil is unstable, ivory is a no no cost to extract and minimal benefits for some of them.
The real answer is colonialism.
>>1205660
OVERPOPULATED AND WERE FORMERLY KEKED TO DEATH
LETTING INFRASTRUCURE DECAY AND KICKING WHITES OUT + SUBVERTING SOFT, CIVILIZED COLONIAL CULTURE + CAUSING MASS DEATH IS TURNING THINGS IN RIGHT DIRECTION! GOOD JOB MUGABE!
>>1207358
Lol you can't ignore Colonialism.
That's like ignoring the cause of ww2 and saying it was Hitler having a hate bones for Jews
>>1207358
>lack of security after independence, new technology leading to arms proliferation and cold war proxy wars
That was all caused by decolonization meaning you can't just exempt colonialism
>>1207367
>All Africa is Zimbabwe.
Nice caps brah.
>>1207404
ALSO HAPPENING ELSEWHERE
REALIGNMENT TO TRIBAL DIVISIONS LIKE IN SUDAN, ONGOING EXTERMINATION OF WHITES IN SOUTH AFRICA PLUS HOSTILITY AGAINST BANTUS, WHATEVER THE FUCK IS HAPPENING IN CONGO THIS WEEK ETC. ETC.
THE ONLY PLACE DEVELOPING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION IS NIGERIA, AND THAT IS ONLY BECAUSE THE ETERNAL ANGLO NEVER REALLY LOOSENED HIS GRIP!
ALSO NOTE THAT I AM IN NO WAY BEING SARCASTIC OR IRONIC, I LOATHE SUCH RHETORICAL FLAIRS, I TRULY THINK MR. MUGABE IS A WONDERFUL LEADER, APART FROM WHEN HE BEGGED WHITES FOR HELP INSTEAD OF STAYING THE COURSE!
>>1207416
Jesus Christmas Superstar it's the all caps autist.
What's the incentive to develop if their resources (used to) let them live a comfortable life without agriculture/civilization?
http://home.iitk.ac.in/~amman/soc474/Resources/sahlins_original_affluent.html
>>1207442
MASSIVE POPULATION DUE TO WESTERN MEDICINE, AID, AGRICULTURE. NOT GOOD! BE LIKE MUGABE!
>>1207428
WHY ARE NORMIES ALWAYS SO BUTTHURT WHEN CONFRONTED WITH CORRECT OPINIONS
>>1207398
Decolonization would have been a total wreck no matter what if it happen later by 10,20 or 50 years.
>>1207442
But Africa had agriculture though idiot and pretty big development.Very few peoples were hunter gatheres in Africa and the ones that did were btfo by their agriculturalist neighbors and there was civilizations and kingdoms and empires.
>>1205841
we have a winner
>>1205720
>Lack of arable land
opposite, they have too much if anything and have it too easy. Soil is super rich, you just throw seeds on the ground and they grow super fast.
>>1205732
>no good resources, shitty landscape
>wild animals everywhere
>south africa is pretty developed though
everything you said is wrong
.
.
>everyone else
>it's someone else fault. (white man)
You realize how dumb you sound?
>>1205660
>Extract Political Institution
t. Why nations fail
>>1208205
>Soil is super rich, you just throw seeds on the ground and they grow super fast.
Wtf? Do you even know what you are talking about.
>>1205841
>>1208159
>Every time Africans would find a ruler that cared about the people
this is naive, Africans are perfectly capable of exploiting other Africans without being prompted
if you want catharsis against evil racists on /pol/, why not adopt facts and logic and prove you are more intelligent?
>>1208205
>Soil is super rich, you just throw seeds on the ground and they grow super fast.
Nah it's pretty shit
>>1208231
What he said happened in a lot if nations though desu. But bad governance is a common issue.
>>1208231
facts have a racist bias
>>1208231
You're the one bringing up racism here
>>1208233
Do you have same or similar map for US/Americas?
>>1208233
The soil is so leeches of nutrients and there's little natural replenishments of it like other parts of the world do and fertilizers are super expensive since you need a fuckton of it to get more then substinance yields and the pollution that comes with using certain fertilizers.
>>1208246
We should transplant indians to africa and then their poo will enrich the soil.
>>1205660
muh colonialism and completely botched forced "development" afterwards.
>>1208258
that would actually work over a long ass (kek) time. Unfortunately it'd completely fuck up the ecosystem.
>>1208241
added a shitty key just for you
>>1208293
and the colors from the shitty key don't match with the map ofc, it's just there for descriptions
>>1208258
Big difference between India and Africa is that they used fertilizers.
African nations used to then donors who used to fund fertilizer and the wb dropped it because it got in the way of private development and pressured the nation that subsidized out of their own pockets to stop.
Now in 2007 the wb softened it stance on fertilizer subsidies after seeing Malawi use it to good success despite the hundreds of cases were subsidizing fertilizers helped farmers out in many nations.
You guys really don't know how much the imf and wb fuck nations up.
>>1205805
What do you think about San bushmen aka the peppercornhair race?
I heard they would get along well with whitey and vice versa.
Also Botswana seems to be ok.
>>1208317
Same with giving the 3rd world countries free food, it just ruins the local economy
>>1205837
>no other country has fucked up that much
>>1205922
>lack of animals
No.
Bantu farmers had farm animals a very long time beforw cololisation ans a wide array of usuable fauna such as pigs and goats.
There are even bushmen who managed to tame monkeys for hunting purposes.
I always hear that ancient Africa kingdoms were great and majestic...so why were they BTFO'd so hard?
>>1208338
Iran is currently the most powerful Muslim nation in the world, and is exerting its influence in a mini-Cold War with Saudi Arabia.
Zimbabwe is literally who: the nation.
>>1208338
But theocratic Iran is still stronk and sovereign.
Cruel but not failed.
>>1208338
except Iran has improved in so many aspects since the Revolution.
>>1208362
GUNS
GERMS
STEEL
>>1208362
There were some islamic kingdoms who were ok.
If you look after truly african states then only the west coast got shit done.
Its a shame this region's culture got shattered, they would dominate subsaharan africa by now if the euros would just have continued to trade with them-knowledge included.
>>1208375
Nice meme
>>1208233
>half the continent is fertile
>nah bro Africa totally can't grow food.
fuck off.
>>1207378
>>1207398
Most of Europe gave up on its colonies as it didn't want to commit to wars like the Angolan war of independence which were the direct result of the changes I mentioned.
>what if Europe didn't colonize Africa and instead traded with African kings?
"What ifs" are meaningless, you could argue that a butterfly flapping its wings 1000 was responsible for everything that happened since. You have to look at what changed and events that directly impacted development in Africa.
>but colonialism is wrong
Colonialism is a form of tyranny, but it isn't an ideal world and it was very unlikely that Africa would have been free of tyranny. This doesn't help us answer OP's question.
>>1208390
Many of those areas have nutrient depleted soil of tsetse flies. They also don't mention the climate or precipitation so you have good soil in places that you wouldn't farm because it's in a jungle thus unsuitable for many cash crops or its in a desert/arid area so little rain.
Even if the soil is okay it got overused due to very long human use and now you need to use fertilizers to make a yield that earns a profit but fertilizers are expensive due to cost of transportation (double Europe's in many many places that are landlocked or deep inland)
>>1208390
and over half of it is useless for crops
anyway you're overrating it's influence. Ukraine has the best soil in the world and it's poor as fuck
plant growing capability is not the most important thing in the modern world when it comes to prosperity
>>1208403
We never said any of that green text at all.
>>1208416
For example many European countries and the US have massive subsidies alongside protectionist policies as well as the capability to tell the WTO to go Fuck itself.
Fuel costs have a huge impact in the developing world which can Fuck them up if it goes too high or low.
Climate change and environment issues.
>>1205660
Badly managed colonialism and even more badly manged decolonization because of the "muh oppression" rhetoric being flinged at Europe by the US and USSR.
It's always easy to stand up for the oppressed when you have oil in your backyard.
![nrcs142p2_050231[3].gif](https://i.imgur.com/jqd6AgN.gif "nrcs142p2_050231[3].gif")
>>1208233
>the best land is going to go to shit due to climate change in a few decades
man Africa just can't catch a break
>>1208857
Don't worry Bolloré Logistics has this covered, they don't want their colonial holdings to turn into barren wastelands. Where would they get their slaves otherwise?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/01/091228-great-green-wall-trees-senegal-sahara-desert/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall
https://www.thegef.org/gef/great-green-wall
>>1208857
>dat Nigeria
Place is fucked. In recession as well. Also, 200 million people lmao
>>1208320
>gets slaughtered by both Bantu Africans and European Africans for centuries
>considered subhuman by both
> chill with either races
Nope.
>>1208418
Most of Europe gave up on its colonies as it didn't want to commit to wars like the Angolan war of independence which were the direct result of the changes I mentioned.
In response to this you might ask "what if Europe didn't colonize Africa and instead traded with African kings?". "What ifs" are meaningless, you could argue that a butterfly flapping its wings 1000 was responsible for everything that happened since. You have to look at what changed and events that directly impacted development in Africa.
In response to this you might say "but colonialism is wrong. Colonialism is a form of tyranny, but it isn't an ideal world and it was very unlikely that Africa would have been free of tyranny. This doesn't help us answer OP's question.
>>1208293
Africa clearly has large areas of alfisoil and ultisoil. I don't think soil is a major factor.
>>1207452
You see that button, called Caps Lock, on the left side of your keyboard ? If you press it, it turns your letters small again, so you can type like a normal person.
>>1205660
First of all - 'development' is a contested term in and of itself.
The current view of development is based on Modernisation/Neo-liberalism, centred primarily around economics being a measure of how 'developed' a country is. There are other views of what you can 'developed' and 'developing', but the most-widely held and applied developmental measure is that based on economics.
This poses a problem for Africa for a variety of reasons - the colonial legacy and issues from it, the nature of the current world system currently combined with an abundance of natural resources.
Decolonisation was hasty and left massive problems in most African countries - they were often left with a lack of infrastructure, rival tribal groups that historically despised one another were now within the same country as drawn up from the Colonial power which often led to instability which fucks up any chance of 'development'. The nature of the current world system also screws Africa as produces winners and losers, with much of the trading being exploitative from TNC's that pay very little for the resources these countries have with the goverments not in a position to get better trade deals (often as a result of the instability previously mentioned). This again, leads to lack of funds to 'develop' with.
tl;dr: It's a combination of factors, with Colonialism being a major factor.
>>1205660
normal maps don't really show the scale of how big Africa really is.
Sub-Saharan africa was isolated to basically itself. Whereas the rest of the old world has the Mediterranean Sea and the Silk Road to exchange ideas and technologies.
Sub Saharan Africa also had to deal with horrible diseases and animals that wouldn't go away because there was no winter, and each tribe was more isolated between vast tracks of land, huge mountain chains, and rivers.
African Empires were also more about how many people they ruled, not how much land they held. The more slaves an Empire had, the more powerful they were. That means more farmers, more soldiers, more workers. African slaves were treated better than, say, Ancient slaves in most of the world, or slaves in the Americas. They were more indentured servants, that could earn their freedom, and their masters wanted them to be motivated to work/fight.
This allowed Europeans to come in and shoot everyone, when Europeans started using guns. When this happened, Europeans basically shot everyone who didn't have guns, or didn't have defensible positions. Which is all of Sub Saharan Africa, once the cure for Malaria was discovered.
Colonialism set Africa back, destroying social and family structures, government systems, and wealth.
>>1208809
is that how you Europeans justify genocide and systemic destruction of cultures and social structures for easier resource extraction?
>>1205660
apparently neither north america or any oceanic countries were colonized, or the baltic countries, norway, finland by sweden. Nope, only the african countries were colonized.
>>1209351
>the type of colonization in Africa was exactly the same as the Americas, Asia, etc
>>1209355
The africans wanted independence, they got independence, what's the problem?
They had no infrastructure to begin with
Every country on this planet that has ever had a war of conquest consists of rival tribes, current UK or sweden for example consists of multiple groups of people with different dialects or local languages alltogether which were historical enemies
Lack of good trade deals is the nations responsibility
The only noticable difference between colonizations is the genetic composition, NA and the oceanic colonies were taken over by the colonizers themselves, south america was heavily intermixed together with europeans, while neither happened in africa
Australia went from nothing to something, Africa went from nothing to nothing, where even Australia alone has a higher gdp than the entirety of the african continent
>>1208338
Atleast Persia isn't doing as bad as it's counterpart
>>1209201
I get the feeling that corporations are over-blamed.
The worst performing countries are those who have overly rejected corporations. Botswana has some on the strongest property rights in Africa, has a 50/50 split with DeBeers in diamond profits and is one of the richest countries there per capita. Lots of other African states have equal "natural resources per capita" but the extractive institutions from colonialism have affected their people worse. Before colonialism most states had extractive institutions anyway, but that's not an apology for colonialism.
>>1209390
>The africans wanted independence, they got independence, what's the problem?
>They had no infrastructure to begin with
The process and the way it occurred fucked them from the get-go. Another example of this difference is with Pakistan/India - guess which one became independant without suitable infrastructure and education systems?
>Every country on this planet that has ever had a war of conquest consists of rival tribes, current UK or sweden for example consists of multiple groups of people with different dialects or local languages alltogether which were historical enemies
Yes, however when these divisions are being exacerbated by powers playing them off against one another it's obviously an issue. This again combined with the abundance of resources is why the abundance of resources is actually a hinderance for stability and 'development' in Africa - it's too easy to play them off against one another which can then be exploited to gain cheap prices for it. This can be seen across West Africa, The Congo, Rwandan Genocide.
>Lack of good trade deals is the nations responsibility
They're not in a position to negotiate fair deals, hence the pushing for fair-trade and an abolition of int'l debts. Also, when a nation has a leader that plays hard ball in resource negotiations, that leader often finds themselves facing an 'organic' rebellion or coup not long after. It's not a coincidence.
>The only noticable difference between colonizations is the genetic composition, NA and the oceanic colonies were taken over by the colonizers themselves, south america was heavily intermixed together with europeans, while neither happened in africa
You being serious? Despite all that's infront of you that is what you come up with to 'explain' Africa's underdevelopment.
>>1209425
Yeah, the ones who have rejected corporatios due to an inability to get a relatively 'ok' deal for their resources will struggle cause of a lack of funds combined with massive debts from failed development program loans from the IMF/World Bank throughout the 70's/80's that cripple many nations, not just African ones.
Botswana is an exception due to it being relatively small and most importantly, stable. It can be argued that this is because it's one of the most ethnically homogenous countries in Africa as well as having a pretty small population and not being fucked with due to Cold-War Geopolitics like neigbours Zimbabwe or Anglola.
>>1209433
I'm not the guy that you are responding to but most trade restrictions are placed by the developing countries themselves, claiming that they help the nation but actually helping vested interests. In Pakistan for example there are restrictions on importing second hand cars to "promote industry". This has resulted in higher car costs for everyone and the poor are even less likely to afford a car now. This is essentially taking money from the populace and placing it in the hands of the owners of the (inefficient) car factories and the workers.
>>1206073
>South American state-based society in 2000 BC
Shit, what? How did I not know about this, that's really fascinating.
Someone else in this thread said that the Inca never had written language, I wonder how their predecessors in 2000 BC managed a state or complex trade without writing.
>>1209450
There are a lot of internal issues that fuck these nations over, policies like that obviously do - incompetant and piss poor leadership and outright corruption is obviously a problem that stops these nations from developing. There have been similar policies in Africa that have done the same, a shift from normal farmed crops to cash crops despite it being clear that it wouldn't work is another example.
Colonialism can't be solely blamed for underdevelopment, what I'm arguing is that it's a large factor that encompasses and exacerbates alot of the other problems that limit development.
>>1209446
>Inability to get a relatively 'ok' deal
Nonsense, Zimbabwe also holds a 50% stake in many mining operations, Mugabe now claims Zimbabwe is being ripped off. The main fear of corporations would be nationalisation which perhaps leads to the higher demands by them, but the possibility of profit is so large that the foreign corporations are generally happy to accept 50%. Recently Bolivia managed to get 80% of the profits from the hydrocarbon industry when before it just got 20%. Corporations with a slightly lower profit for the government is better than no corporations at all. All of this exploitive nonsense ignores the risks corporations accept when mining in these countries and ignores the possibility of mutually beneficial exchange. The main problem that I have with the IMF was that they did not put enough emphasis on education. Regarding loans many African governments actually faced lower interest rates on bonds than Spain for a while.
Do you have any examples of countries rejecting all corporations as they deemed the deal not okay, but didn't compromise in the end?
>>1209459
I see colonialism as the result of previous under-development but also partially as a cause of present under-development. Before colonialism most institutions (weak as they were ) were extractive to begin with, but now after colonialism you still have extractive institutions but now much more efficient at being extractive, lessening the possibility of benign neglect.
>>1209511
Corporations do accept much higher risks when operating in these countries, which is understandable given the instability of most of these nations.
However, it's not always beneficial for most of these nations though even with these percentage stakes as these governments have to make major concessions to attract capital and as well as this the main issues regarding the conflicts between these corporations and government is that to do with rate of taxes corporations pay who argue for heavily lowered tax rates. It's alright having a major stake to gain profits but when these profits are noticeably lower than what they could be is it not still an exploitative process?
>>1209529
>Before colonialism most institutions (weak as they were ) were extractive to begin with, but now after colonialism you still have extractive institutions but now much more efficient at being extractive, lessening the possibility of benign neglect.
What you're suggesting there is neo-colonialism, that overt colonial control has been switched by more covert resource extraction through multinational corporations. Would the process still encourage further neglect as the blame for underdevelopment can be placed at the foot of governments and leaders rather than the economic process itself?
>>1205860
Africa had plenty of germs though, it's why nobody could actually colonize it until the 1800's
>>1209555
You still haven't given any examples of countries who said no to corporations because they all offered "unfair" deals.
If countries have to make major concessions (which they arent forced into by corporations, IMF moreso) to get any mining done then potential profits couldn't be higher anyway. When it comes to mining/oil the countries themselves have the bargaining power (corruption aside).
>>1209587
I'm not suggesting that foreign bodies are extractive, but the internal institutions are extractive (think dictator looting the oil revenue).
Not neo-colonialism.
>>1205660
>highly tribalistic cultures trying to be shoehorned into modern nationstates
>>1205660
Why is one child younger than another?
>>1205901
>Africa was pretty developed in both Ancient and Medieval times, but went to shit because it was the first target of Europeans and remained under them the longest time.
Devil's advocate here. Europeans might then be able to be considered as the better race just because they were able to keep them under rule for such a long time.
>>1205674
Liberia wasn't colonized, you are right. It was conquered by an outside force still tho. The ruling force was a group of African Americans, and it was established by them. It's only "not a colony" because this group didn't rule outside of that area.
>>1205674
it was literally colonized by african americans
>>1209689
>nation-states
>trying
they weren't even really trying there. There is an ethnic group called the "Tuareg" in the Sahara, that span a fairly large area and speak a fairly different language than the Arabic speakers surrounding it. Colonialism split them largely into being halves of 3 different countries, and 2 smaller parts in 2 other countries. That is not "trying". Good job colonialism.
>>1210387
Funny thing is barring Libya France owned all that.
>>1205732
>south africa is pretty developed though
nope
only the tourist money spots like cape town
otherwise you have places like johannesburg and durban
>>1210454
Yep. But the French drew those lines within their own territory, having appointed leaders rule them, as ruling all their land as one colony would not have worked well. And when the states became free, they continued the framework of the old internal leadership, and thus the same borders.
First off, civilisations would never thrive there because
a) climate
b) diseases (malaria etc.)
c) no draft animals
d) relatively metal poor soil
So really it was a shithole always, until europenas came across.
Suddenly, CIVILIZATION, trains, industry, hospital, laws, police, etc.
Then came the emancipation of the african countries, and most of them ended up being leaded by activists, that ended up becoming dictators and whatnot. An because of marxist influence, that was turned from war of classes for war of ethnicities, genocides like Uganda's and Rwanda and Burundi's
So it's really nig nogs fucking it up with a little sesoning of marxist genocide
>>1211369
Dear god my post is way too badly written, better revise it next time.
Anyway, Africa's shithole status is due to Africans themselves, Europe did benefit Africa way more than hinder it.
>>1205660
Low IQ, Socialist economic policies, and (to some, tiny, iddy-biddy extent) muh colonialism.
Hate to state the obvious, but it was because colonialism.
>>1211412
It's only obvious for sheep. That argument doesn't stand. How can hospitals, infrastructure, law enforcement and industry, besides a whole myriad of civilizational advancements hinder a country?
>>1211412
How does that explain Ethiopia then?
If your theory was correct shouldnt it have been comparable in development in 1935 to other countries in the middle east, asia, europe ect
>>1211428
> infrastructure
That is only good for extracting resources
> industry
That is only good to exploit people to death
> law enforcement
That is only good to discrimination of people
>>1211479
Are you marxist, anarchist, or baiting? I need to know what kind of retard i'm dealing with
>>1211369
they had potential beasts of burden, but unlike euro-asians, they didn't manage to tame and domesticate them, africa is huge and has a wide range of climates
>>1211937
Euro-Asians had access to less agressive potential beasts of burden. And on the range of climates, sure, there are, but they are maindly desert, tropical rainforests and savannah, areas not so suitable for starting a civilisation
>>1212258
muh aurochs
muh lions
muh elephants
and so on
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Kenya-is-a-cruel-marriage--it-s-time-we-talk-divorce/-/440808/3134132/-/yrd7n0/-/index.html
Discuss.
>>1205660
Culture clash between traditionalists, Christians and muslims.
plus diseases and none of them know how to economics
>>1205921
What is your native language? I'm just curious.
>>1211369
Marxism had nothing to do with Randa or Uganda idiot.
Idi Imin was a pawn for the U.S and Rwanda was just earlier issues erupting into one genocide after that Rwandan Hutu president was killed and France backed the hutus.
>>1211428
If it's very badly implemented then those things will fuck up hard.
No Africans were trained as hospitals staff barring a few efforts from people who dropped realized that no amount of money can make a skilled Euro medical worker come to Africa in sufficient amounts.
Law enforcement was heavily tribal and mostly hired from one group. Also many colonial governess used law enforcement to commit acts of abuse. Hell the Mau MAu Rebellion and the deaths form ti are once example of colonial law enforcement gone terribly bad as Enoch Powell said eloquently"ruling colonies and the homeland with two completely different standards is unfeasible. Why should the government have two faces for it's citizenry in Africa or Asia and one here in the UK" to paraphrase it.
Industry was purely extractive and none of it was developed in colonies. The colonies were to prop up businesses of the motherland and provide resource for industry back home at cut rate prices while the government had to deal with the burden of ruling the colony on the cheap. The colonial laws put into place denied wealth accumulation in many populations because they were designed to make sure natives stayed poor and dumb as a source of very cheap labor like what was done in South Africa pre and post independence from colonial rule.
Infrastructure was limited to the few cities built up and for industry/government/settler use if any. Hell in many cases Blacks were excluded from the cities like what was done in Nairobi. You have pockets of infrastructure but past that it's like they never even came. Infrastructure is expensive as fuck so it was only used for the bare necessities
Colonial rule was different continent by continent and in Africa development wasn't really a concern barring the missionaries and pure hearted souls who genuinely believed in helping the locals out. To really see it you need to look at the colonial laws on the various colonies and the intentions behind them in various papers.
>>1205805
>>1205901
>first target of Europeans
the vast, vast majority of Africa was uninfluenced by Europeans before the late 18th century and the development of it hasn't changed a lot since then. Where does this idea come from that Africa was some beautiful utopia before Whitey came and wrecked it?
>>1206282
>slave trade raided
Implying that the slave trade wasn't existent prior to European colonialism
>colonialism more brutal
With a few exceptions such as the Free State of Congo, European colonialism was much more civil towards the native populations then in the Americas
>>1213499
Indeed on the Americas part but many atrocities and bad shit happened in the African colonies but few really know it because only people with interest in those areas read up on it. It's interesting to read up since people thought the Mau Mau rebellion was a one of thing but it happened pretty often in many colonies to more or less severe degree.
>>1213485
>before the late 18th century and the development of it hasn't changed a lot since then.
Are you saying the development right now or during that period on the late 18th century?
>inb4 muh colonialism
So you basically want me to say that black Africans are inferior right?
Anyway the real answer is this:
>Tetse fly in areas with useful animals
>No useful animals in areas without the damn fly
>Huge jungles across central Africa
>Poor soil in much of the continent (except in the East)
>Centuries of arab exploration in the East
>Few deposits of early accessable copper
>Localised tribal identities
>Scrambler for Africa means that while continent is colonised in twenty years
>Random borders drawn not respecting Africa crazy ethnic diversity
>Whole Tribes are cut in half by birders
>Rival and antagonistic tribes are placed in the same country together
>Colonials disappear leaving behind the infrastructure but taking away experts (who are mostly white and either leave because they want to or are forced out by new regimes).
>Massive countries with tiny fraction of black professionals
>Masses are uneducated with tribal loyalties that often cross borders
>Western educated individuals take over and try to run countries like western states
>Democracy doesn't work in regions where chiefs have always had power
>Big man politics
>Crazy fuckers like idi Amin take control
>Socialism and communists start colonising the brains of Africa's elite
>Corruption everywhere because people's loyalties are to their family
>No one gives a fuck about their nation
>Nothing works
Tldr: scattered and disparate tribes cannot be a nation no matter how hard you want them to be.
>>1213537
Good post.
Do you think another good summary would be "Forcing the western political framework on a people who are alien to it, won't work."
>>1205710
What are you insinuating
That resources were somehow completely depleted by civilisations prior Christ?
Somali here.
Italian colonialism wasn't that bad for us actually. They built fishing/salt factories, cinemas, stadiums, theatres, taught us how to farm and all that good stuff. They even gave Somalis a sense of collective identity in that all the Somali tribes who were previously in a constant state of fighting each other, were now uniting in wanting to overthrow the "Christian invaders".
We continued to reap their seeds till the cold war came, when the Soviets brainwashed our leader into adopting communism, and the rest is history.
>>1213583
lol idiot Siad Barre got in with a coup after the last pres was assassinated by a body guard.
>>1213622
Where did I lie? That was after colonialism though, and the SYL presidents managed to keep some sort of an egalitarian society till Barre messed it all up
>>1213583
>when the Soviets brainwashed our leader into adopting communism, and the rest is history
Lol this line pretty much applies to much of Africa during the Cold War days. I'm an American-born Ethiopian, and my dad told me recently that he came to America to flee the communists. I don't know much about our history, but I thought that was interesting.
>>1213677
Both sides of the cold war fucked shit up in Africa desu.
Look at all the assholes America and American allied nations propped up.
>>1205660
Africa has the bad mixture of having very little in regards to a history of state level organization followed by an era of colonialism where the state was just trying to extract resources.
It is funny that people are surprised that Africans follow thwrestling only example when organizing their states.
>>1209456
Incans didn't have a written language but did have roughly analogous forms of communication IIRC
Didn't they have a system that they could record stuff similar to how you would in writing but with knots?
South america isn't really my area of expertise, mesoamerica is,.so I could be wrong about that
>>1205688
>rape a lot
>starve to death
>die of HIV
>"judging a non-western entity by western standards and asking why it doesn't hold up"
Eat shit John Green
you are insane
>>1206073
I do not understand. Around 1500 Portugal had all those boats and technology and our brazilian natives were naked, hunting and using natural herbs as medicine. Why are some humans inferior?
>>1205660
So we can live like kings.
But dont tell em
>>1213286
What does that have to do with anything?
Lefties need to stop deluding themselves, believe it or not but the shit you've been told on equality and minorities throughout your sheltered life is a load of shit. Africans are genetically retarded and were before the white man showed up, they were given everything to succeed and shown how to use the rich ground and docile animals to their advantage but fucked it up badly
>>1214245
Not the same Anon, but you have to admit that he has a point.
They were kind of rushed into western civilization, and expecting them to be on par with countries like Germany or the US is unrealistic. There are some surprising countries that are actually doing fairly well considering their circumstances, but the problems still persist. Do take a look at the article I posted in >>1212624, it's not all that wrong.
>t. American-born Kenyan
>>1208233
What about the arean around the Nile?
>>1209201
Development is Pretty well defines by the UN
>>1214594
Some people here think development is like how sciences are developed in Civ games for some deluded reason.
Others think you have to 1:1 copy how their country developed which is purely inane or that education is some mysterious thing that is impossible for poor peoples to do well at.
>>1214310
can our world even thrive if everyone standards of living are decent?
We are struggling with India and China's pollution. How about the rest of the developing world?
>>1208338
Iran is actually doing pretty well, they're a major regional power, and their economy is growing pretty quickly. Zimbabwe went from being important and successful to being one of the poorest, most corrupt, most irrelevant shitholes on this entire fucking planet.
