What killed Samurai culture?
>>1195398
Japanese people trying to westernize.
>>1195406
You mean the West trying to westernize Japan, and its people.
What would be Samurai culture?
>>1195398
>>1195398
Natural selection.
>>1195425
Are you retarded?
the revolver
>>1195427
There was nothing natural about Japan's westernization.
Actually think before posting.
>>1195410
No, the west would have been content for the Japs to continue being a Shogunate. The Japanese just didn't want to continue getting shit on westerners as had already happened.
If you want to see what happens to Asian countries that don't westernize then just look at China's history even before the Japanese even set eyes on colonizing them.
>>1195441
*getting shit on by westerners
>>1195440
Unnatural selection then.
>implying
Meiji era.
>>1195465
DELETE THIS
>>1195441
>No, the west would have been content for the Japs to continue being a Shogunate.
Well, it sure was a lot of intensive multinational effort spanning centuries, to deculturalize, and reform, an entire nation, for such "indifference".
>The Japanese just didn't want to continue getting shit on westerners as had already happened.
What is that even supposed to mean? The sentence is barely coherent.
>If you want to see what happens to Asian countries that don't westernize then just look at China's history even before the Japanese even set eyes on colonizing them.
Apparently you are retarded, and have no clue about what you're posting about.
The West was anything but indifferent towards whether Japan westernized or not. Westernization is not something toward non-western nations aspire, as your conceited petty mind makes you believe; westernization is a slow gradual active process on part of the West in order to absorb and assimilate a country.
Not only are you suggesting that westernization is something desirable, or good, in itself, but also that country should want to be westernized in order to not perish by the consequences of westernization.
The problem is westernization, not the lack of it; to think otherwise would be like thinking that all persons in the world should be infected with HIV so that nobody else can be infected with it.
>>1195398
The Allied Occupation of Japan killed samurai culture. Honestly, is there anything less "samurai" than article 9 of their constitution?
>>1195406
Don't you mean modernize?
>>1195487
Modernity itself is not necessarily antithetical to Martial culture, including samurai culture.
>>1195480
>ARTICLE 9. (1) Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
>(2) In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.
Jesus Christ, I never realized how auto-castrated modern Japan is.
>>1195490
Modern military structure and technology was however
>>1195498
>auto-castrated
It was obviously the product of coercion by a multinational entity over a defeated and humiliated nation, you stupid fuck.
>>1195507
Funny, I don't see General MacArthur's signature at the bottom of said document.
>>1195498
It's rather depressing to think about.
It's not surprising that reactionary figures like Yukio Mishima became prominent in 1960 - 70's Japan as a result.
>>1195501
Martiality is not contingent to technological devices; the martial spirit is lived, not acquired; it is a lifestyle; the sword doesn't make the warrior.
>>1195510
*sigh*
You're retarded.
>>1195516
Amazing argument.
>>1195479
>Well, it sure was a lot of intensive multinational effort spanning centuries, to deculturalize, and reform, an entire nation, for such "indifference".
Proof?
>What is that even supposed to mean?
It means the Japanese did not want a repeat of Matthew Perry's gunboat diplomacy. Westernization would allow them to resist efforts by western nations to control them by being able to compete on their level.
>The West was anything but indifferent towards whether Japan westernized or not. Westernization is not something toward non-western nations aspire, as your conceited petty mind makes you believe; westernization is a slow gradual active process on part of the West in order to absorb and assimilate a country.
Based on their entire latter half of your post I can see that you are a massive weeaboo.
I'm not suggesting that westernization is necessary in order to avoid the consequences of westernization, god no. I'm saying that westernization is necessary so that imperialist powers don't control your country by force of arms. Take for instance the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War
The Chinese were absolutely powerless to resist westernized armies and as such were simply forced to concede to their demands.
The Japanese post-Meiji restoration on the other hand were a very formidable world power that managed to absolutely crush the Russian Empire's attempts to impose upon them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War
If you're suggesting that the country perishes because of the loss of some of the more unique oddities of their culture as a consequence of westernization then that's retarded, westernization allows a country to preserve their native rule of law and dictate their own future - it is inalienably a good thing.
Crying about a lack of Samurai is meaningless, all the fancy Asian swords and muh bushido in the world aren't going to save the Japanese from from a big iron navy.
>>1195520
Go back to /v/ or wherever you come from, idiot.
You're historically ignorant, and mentally impaired, beside, your logic is perverse, and you clearly fail at comprehending what you read.
>>1195520
>westernization allows a country to preserve their native rule of law and dictate their own future
This is not always the case. Westernization and modernization also destroyed certain native sub-national cultures (including in Europe itself), as it tends to promote political centralization and cultural uniformization at the national level. I agree modernization in the European model an overall positive and likely inevitable process but that is not to say it's without its faults.
>>1195535
>Point out that the Japanese were in fact the chief architects of their own westernization and it was a decidedly good thing.
>baka go back to /v/
High quality of discourse here.
>>1195516
>*sigh*
want to know how i know you're from reddit?
>>1195398
This movie...
>>1195516
I've yet to see a single reference to the Reverse Course ITT. Not sure why, because it's perhaps the most important period of the Allied Occupation of Japan.
Influenced by the Chinese Communist Revolution, the escalation of the Cold War, and the immanent Korean War, the United States of America sought to secure Japan against Communism.
I can't be bothered to write anymore, as I've got actual work to attend to. However, for those who are interested, research the "Reverse Course" and its impact of Japanese politics.
Basically, by endorsing conservative politicians, America contributed to the formation of the Japanese Liberal Democratic Party. With exception to a period of 11 months between 1993 - 1994, the LDP has maintained control of Japan since its formation.
>>1195555
In what way was it the determining factor in ending traditional elements in Japanese culture?
>>1195555
That has nothing to do with the death "samurai culture," though. It was killed off long before and replaced by state-sanctioned """bushido""".
>>1195535
Literally not an argument
Meiji?
>>1195571
Not sure how you can be this stupid, but I'll try and explain it to you in simple terms:
Because typically American policies were imposed upon Japan during the period. This would eventually become a self-perpetuating system, as the formation of the LDP (established on American principles) would ensure Japan's democratic future.
It's a sad fact that the Ezo fleet lead by the Kanrin Maru was destroyed in a freak storm or they could've fended off Meiji and there would've been a French-backed Samurai Republic in the North.
>>1195589
The idea that a country's constitution can come into being and last in a stable manner for almost 70 years (in a democratic republic, mind you), solely through external dictate on the part of an amicable ally, is laughable.
You seem to have a child's understanding of politics. Do you play video games by any chance?
Meiji.
Guns.
>>1195535
not OP here
Japan made the choice of westernisation. They sent thousands of students overseas to study everything about the west (science, but most importantly politic, moral and economy). Their WWII actions are extremely related to this. They wanted an empire like those Western Empires.
And I have a source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_O._Reischauer
>>1195398
To my understanding, and I've read quite a bit about it, the first Samurai weren't so much about swords (altho it was a big thing) but more archery, which was considered a divine art form. With the advent of trade with the Portugese came guns, and anyone and their greasy grandmother could drop a samurai in .2 second. Altho the strict behavioral (honor) system didn't die (still is observed today), that would be the "beginning of the end" of prevalent samurai culture, but it would be a long, slow process.
>>1195625
Couldn't it be maintained in other institutions though? Military, politics, business, even friggin' boy scouts?
>>1195613
didn't japan have guns at least 200 years before though?
>>1195606
The only laughable aspect of this thread is incredibly flawed method.
You obviously don't understand how a debate works, as your paragraph only attempts to destabilise my position instead of strengthening your own.
In essence, the only thing you've asserted is that my argument is weak. However, you've yet to establish your position, which is indicative of two things:
I) You haven't actually formulated an opinion, so you attack someone else's knowing that your non-existent position can't be criticised in retaliation.
II) You actually believe that your statement:
>The idea that a country's constitution can come into being and last in a stable manner for almost 70 years (in a democratic republic, mind you), solely through external dictate on the part of an amicable ally, is laughable.
Is entirely faultless, and therefore functions as a refutation, argument and conclusion simultaneously.
Now that I've demonstrated your flawed methods, could you perhaps explain how Japan's constitution has remained unaltered, if not due to American influence?
Now, I recognise and appreciate that this might be difficult for you, as your language and methodology indicates that you've no academic experience. However, I would ask that you try your best -- not for the sake of quality discussion, but to provide /his/ with more comedically flawed content.
>>1195636
If you didn't seperate every line you wouldn't look like such a massive retard.
>>1195629
Bushido was a big thing even in WW2. You didn't see guys walking around in armor or feudal warlords, thought. Guns made everyone who had one "even" and there was no more room for a special class of warrior who brought knives to gunfights.
I mean, sure, samurai used guns too, because they had to, but they weren't any longer so much part of that spiritual idealism that came with finely honed skills and perfected physicality.
>>1195636
>Now that I've demonstrated your flawed methods, could you perhaps explain how Japan's constitution has remained unaltered, if not due to American influence?
How about: because of the deep social, political and cultural transformation inaugurated since 1945 which thoroughly transformed Japanese national identity and self-understanding.
By the way, the way a debate work is that prima presents an argument and secunda tries to knock it down. Presenting an alternative explanation isn't required for the sake of falsification.
>>1195641
It seems you have a child's understanding of debate.
When communicating through a forum, seperating ideas into paragraphs allows the responder to address each point individually.
>>1195641
No his post was retarded regardless of formatting.
i can't believe there are unironic weeaboos here who think westernization was bad for japan... wow...
>>1195655
Not him, m8. Just saw your stupid post.
>>1195653
Actual samurai, as any manner of medieval era knight, were long gone by 1945.
>>1195655
I hope you realize that rhetoric is a huge point of debate and presenting your point persuasively is just as, if not more, important than being factually correct.
Setting yourself up for
>
Bullet point arguments is autistic as fuck and there's a reason no one outside of this site really argues like that.
>>1195606
>The idea that a country's constitution can come into being ... is laughable.
You do realise that the Allies engineered the Japanese constitution, right? In addition to this, do you know what the Potsdam Declaration is, or how it outlined the Allies' intentions?
>"The Japanese government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established."
Japanese politicians and civilians alike maintained a general contempt for the constitution that was imposed upon them. In fact, it was frequently described as being like an "ill-fitting suit of clothes."
>>1195664
>I hope you realize that rhetoric is a huge point of debate and presenting your point persuasively is just as, if not more, important than being factually correct.
There's the problem. Factuality must maintain priority over rhetoric, especially in historical debate.
In an legitimate academic context, the rule is "content before the presentation."
>>1195662
I want to add to this an afterthought, in comparison. You know, the advent of the arquebus didn't just, over night, wipe out European knights. There were guys on horseback wearing chest plates and helmets carrying guys for centuries. Hell, I'd rather had something like that on my torso, in the event someone was lucky enough to actually hit straight with a non-rifled firearm, just for the chance it would glance/deflect.
Actual samurai, the real samurai from the feudal era of Japan, were very much the same, in comparison. They just had a very strict honor code (in most cases, not all, some were overgrown richboy bullies) that made them a sort of romanticized hierarchy among their international peers, and rightly so.
>>1195688
lol carrying guys. Carrying "guns". Fucking typo.
>>1195675
>You do realise that the Allies engineered the Japanese constitution, right? In addition to this, do you know what the Potsdam Declaration is, or how it outlined the Allies' intentions?
Even the most authoritarian and brutal occupation regime (which the US certainly wasn't) needs local legitimacy and cooperation. Even Hitler had Petain, even the USSR had Honeker. Legitimacy is a thing. You can't just waltz into a country, draft a constitution and get them to ratify it in all legislative instances, not even if you have nukes and big American penis.
>Japanese politicians and civilians alike maintained a general contempt for the constitution that was imposed upon them. In fact, it was frequently described as being like an "ill-fitting suit of clothes."
And yet it survives pretty much unchanged, Art. IX and everything, despite the huge political challenges in the postwar era.
>>1195398
The white man
>Even the most authoritarian and brutal occupation regime (which the US certainly wasn't) needs local legitimacy and cooperation. Even Hitler had Petain, even the USSR had Honeker. Legitimacy is a thing. You can't just waltz into a country, draft a constitution and get them to ratify it in all legislative instances, not even if you have nukes and big American penis.
But that's the thing, at no point was the Allied Occupation of Japan "a authoritarian" -- despite the forced amending of their constitution.
Discipline, moral legitimacy, well-defined and well-articulated objectives, a clear chain of command, tolerance and flexibility in policy formulation and implementation, confidence in the ability of the state to act constructively, the ability to operate abroad free of partisan politics back home, and the existence of a stable, resilient, sophisticated civil society on the receiving end of occupation policies– these political and civic virtues helped make it possible to move decisively during the brief window of a few years when defeated Japan itself was in flux and most receptive to radical change.
>>1195440
>think before posting
On the biggest, international, most famous anonymous shit post website.
Bitch are you retarded?
>>1195547
>mfw the Last Samurai was a French artillery officer.
>mfw this movie litterally has the line "Japan choose the best in the world for each field: German for military equipment, and of course, for military instructors, us Americans"
>>1195701 #
>And yet it survives pretty much unchanged, Art. IX and everything, despite the huge political challenges in the postwar era.
>ARTICLE 9. (1) Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
>(2) In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.
Except that Japan now maintains a military capable of effective retaliation, which means that article 9 of their amended constitution has changed.
>>1195724
To be fair, the movie is only very loosely based on the actual guy. It's not supposed to be a realist drama by any means.
Samurai culture is a sham perpetrated by butthurt post-Sengoku era samurai who couldn't actually fight in wars so they made up a bunch of shit about fighting wars and things they had no actual experience in. Then come WWII, they brainwash all the retards in thinking that bushido means to be brutal to POWs and to kill yourself instead of retreating.
Japan killed samurai culture, not the West.
>>1195743
As far as I know the interpretation of the statute as pertaining to offensive army (or rather a military force of a certain size) was pretty much well accepted around the time of the ratification. I may be wrong here since my knowledge is anecdotal so I'm open to be shown otherwise. Anyway if that's the case it means that there hasn't been a significant change in status quo.
>>1195724
It's a common American tendency in movies to replace non-Americans with Americans for practically no reason except to make it more appealing to other Americans.
tfw Canadians got shafted in Argo for the same reason.
There were no wars inside Japan. The clans had to fight achother. After they were defeated in WW2 Japan couldn't even invest into anything military but a national guard, which sterilized the samurai culture.
>>1195535
>Go back to /v/ or wherever you come from, idiot.
You're a poopy head!
>You're historically ignorant, and mentally impaired, beside, your logic is perverse, and you clearly fail at comprehending what you read.
And u rong!
It hits every checkbox for retard arguments
>>1195398
>Implying samurai culture died
Just remove the armor and weapons, and you have the exact same culture of obeying your lords which you serve.
Except that today here are no Shoguns, and the new lords are the mighty owners of big capital
The result is obedient loyal people who belong not to a warrior, but to a worker-consumer proletariat class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVQAf6Fbd_s
There was once a documentary about a japanese guy who self-described as Maoist, and how he was very dissappointed in capitalism that basically killed his company in 2008, and how life a wageslave basically is hell in Japan. I can't seem to find it in youtube for some reason
the military class had no purpose in a westernized society.
>>1196675
Really? Don't you think West Point grads in the US form a military class? Or Four Star Generals at least? It's even hereditary to an extent, look at the McCain family. Classes are part and parcel of industrial society, it applies to the armed forced too (a job like any other).
>>1195406
fpbp
>>1195501
Have you read Mishima?
![samourai1800-17-900x1173[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/BlWbgZE.jpg "samourai1800-17-900x1173[1].jpg")
it's interesting to see photos of them from their final period
>>1195535
Finally!
An argument I can get behind!
>>1196934
Why are they such manlets?
>>1196955
Is height of such importance on the battlefield?
>>1196955
>implying that matters when they can skewer you with that fucking naginata
Japanese were manlets for a long time, average height of a soldier in WWII was 5'2.
What is a Samurai? it's a Soldier that is not needed, so he is a bureaucrat. Of course they might write some bullshit books about honor and such, but that's understandable. I mean, they're soldiers that aren't needed because there aren't any wars.
The time after the age of warring states killed the samurai
>>1196987
The Samurai had many privileges. Many rich merchants bought a Samurai title and never fought a battle in their lives.
Tom Cruise
he ruins most things though
Samurais
>>1196955
>manlets XD
Less nutritions
>>1195410
I think you're lost friend. Liberal masochists are thataway
>>1195398
Guns
Westernization.
>>1195406
>>1197577
>Westernization
Question is if that even matters here though.
As other itt have already pointed out, there were already no wars to fight. Could it not have been so that if Japan had been able to continue its isolation, the samurai and their culture would still continue to be become less and less relevant.
>>1195410
No, it was the Japanese westernizing.
>>1195398
Peace.
The culture was dead by the end of the shogunate. They were all only good at managing money.
>>1197763
The culture was really dead from the start of the shogunate.
>>1195398
It turns out that not everybody wanted to live in a feudal, socially backward shithole run by glorified warlords, whilst being constantly cucked by the universally advanced gaijin; least of all the Emperor.
"Samurai" culture died with the end of the Sengoku Jidai.
Warriors weren't needed anymore. The samurai became government officials, judges, police, etc. Then as Japan moved out of the Bakumatsu, there was no need to return to feudalism or warriors.
The modern army and weapons simply made it obsolete at that point.
Samurai as a class ended with the Meiji restoration. This is the only legitimate answer.
>>1195398
modern weaponry
what reason did the shogunate/emperor need to keep those expensive and aggressive men when a fucking peasant with little training could be more effective than any of them with a simple and cheaper firearm?
>>1197668
It matters in this specific instance because of the way Japan reorganized itself.
Whilst the Samurai had basically become a bureaucratic class the restoration of the emperor over the shogunate meant the downfall of the nominal existence of the samurai and their replacement with a more western class of bureaucrats, which many samurai assimilated into although without their former titles.
>>1195410
>oh fuck white people keep blowing up our ports
>hey look these white people guns work pretty well
>>1195398
Samurai culture exists today just in the form of salarymen.
>>1195398
Tokugawa shogunate
The shoguns knew a large military aristocracy would spell disaster for the country in peacetime. It was exactly the entrenchment of the samurai social class that caused the sengoku era and they were keen to not repeat the same mistake again. So samurais were gradually neutered in the Edo period, to varying degrees of success in different regions.
>>1198492
Are you retarded? You're confusing confucianism with bushido.
>>1195724
What they did in Master and Commander is hilarious
>>1196955
zero red meat
>>1195398
peace, after countless civil-wars
>>1195398
Did it really die out though? I mean sure, Japanese people aren't literally dedicating themselves to their lords or committing sudoku for failing their duty, but Japan still has an incredibly strong tradition of honour/loyalty that permeates all of society and especially family relations/the workforce.
If you're more specifically talking about the military aspect of samurai culture, then almost unequivocally the end of WW2. Even more specifically the two bombs completely shocked the Japanese psyche to the very core, so much so that their incredible jingoism almost instantly evaporated and Japan began a long tradition of national pacifism over military duty.
>>1195752
Prussian wannabes killed bushido. Germans ruining EVERYTHING as usual.
there was nothing to fight for
