>perfect god writes a book
>book contradicts itself
Kek
>>1187676
You mean the protestants that follow the book?
>>1187680
delete this
>>1187686
>Sola
>Scriptura
>Lmao
>>1187676
It doesn't, it's a complete atheist meme. I read the entire Bible and I can't find any of the supposed "glaring, earth-shattering contradictions" atheists are always talking about.
>>1187676
Why make baseless claims that you are unwilling and unable to support?
>>1187701
Why follow one book?
>>1187693
They don't exist. They're laughably ridiculous. Like, "in the OT, you can't wear wool and linen blends, but in the NT, you can."
Asinine atheists are the worst people in the world; they literally think like psychopaths.
>>1187706
I follow the one true God.
Who is most talked about and revealed in the one holy collection of books on the planet.
>>1187710
Shut up whore.
>>1187707
It contradicts itself at the outset of Genesis. First stating that he created man and woman together, and then stating that he created man and later woman.
Ezekiel 18:20: The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.
Exodus 20:5: I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
>>1187718
The first account is God's, and it includes the entire creation week.
The second account is Adam's, and it includes Day Six forward.
God made man knowing He would make woman to fit together with man; God made us male and female from the beginning, even though Eve was created after Adam.
There is no contradiction there; a contradiction is A and Not A in the same manner, time and place.
>>1187729
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
...to those who hate me.
Taking text out of context is a pretext for a lie.
>>1187676
>god wrote the book
>implying man didn't fill it with falseness later on
>>1187744
That didn't really paint it as non-contradictory.
>>1187729
>that image
But anon, if they hated Catholics would he side with the Pope?
>>1187759
The son of a wicked man who hates the lord will inherit all sorts of problems, from poverty to diseases to enslavement to addictions, etc.
He will nevertheless be judged on his own merits.
>>1187765
So what about the other quote, where God will visit inequity upon the subsequent generations?
>>1187769
That is visiting the iniquity on your children. If you hate God, get AIDS and have a child, that child is born with AIDS.
Nevertheless, that child will be judged on its own merits.
And there's another layer to this; nobody is judged by God to be righteous on their own merits. Righteousness to God is believing in God and having righteousness imputed to you.
I'm righteous in God's eyes because of what Jesus did, and my belief in what Jesus did, not because of what I do. Or don't do.
>>1187790
Well, I don't know enough about the bible to discuss this any further, but I'll grant you this one.
But I'm just gonna say, that's fucking twisted. Nobody is a good person in your belief, they're just puppets of the divine. Fuck that.
>>1187693
The account of Paul's conversion in Acts 9:
> 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 He asked, “Who are you, Lord?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But get up and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 For three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
> 23 After some time had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him, 24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night so that they might kill him; 25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall,lowering him in a basket. 26 When he had come to Jerusalem, he attempted to join the disciples; and they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him, brought him to the apostles, and described for them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus.
Paul's own account of his conversion in Galatians 1:
> 15 But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with any human being, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were already apostles before me, but I went away at once into Arabia, and afterwards I returned to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days; 19 but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord’s brother. 20 In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!
>>1187794
Not puppets. Lost broken creations that He wants to redeem and fix.
>>1187798
And can only do so if they psychically assuage his wounded ego.
>>1187676
>basement dweller contradicts god
>>1187796
Thank you for proving that Paul claims to have been instructed by Jesus personally in Arabia for three years.
Which is indeed the case.
Your first verses are about his Saul to Paul conversion; your second verses are about the origins of his information and beginning of his ministry.
Paul tried to start his own ministry before he was ready, and almost got killed. So he decided maybe God's way was better after all, and met with God on the mountain of Moses.
>>1187801
He's not wounded dude. We are. But we're not puppets; we can choose to reject the fix.
>>1187806
The Olympics haven't even started yet and already we've got a strong gold medal contender in the category of mental gymnastics.
>>1187809
I have a hard time remembering that what is so clear and obvious to me is only so because I do not completely lack all faculty for understanding spiritual things.
>>1187676
>god is omnibenevolent
>god murders baby egyptians
Therefore, murdering babies is good
>>1187820
Searching for God's claim to be "omnibenevolent", whatever that means.....
0 results.
>>1187809
I'm remembering that line
>>1187816
Ah, the classic ideologue defense of "if you don't get it, it's because you're broken."
>>1187830
Not at all.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
There's no way for you to "get it".
>>1187836
Yes yes, and I have false consciousness, which is why I don't agree with Marx.
Truly Christianity is remarkable in the layers upon layers upon layers of mental armour it instils. You never have to face criticism because it's covered it from every angle. "People disagree with Christianity? That just proves it right." "Christianity is growing less popular in places. That just proves it right." "Christians are doing things that don't match dogma? That just proves it right." On and on and on.
>>1187820
God is just, he doesn't extend infinite mercy to everyone. God can't be benevolent if he rewards those who do evil.
He forgives those who ought to be forgiven and condemns those who ought to be condemned.
>>1187838
God is Good. And only God is Good.
But to say that God is "omnibenevolent" reduces God to, what, Santa Claus? But even Santa Claus has a "naughty" list.
So no. I find that "omnibenevolent" is an atheist strawman, and that in linking God to this non-existent characteristic of anything, they think they can disprove the existence of God.
Shooting and killing a rabid dog that's running towards your children is good. But not from the dog's perspective.
>>1187846
It's because you make claims for us that we do not make for ourselves.
(Plus there really does exist spiritual armor, and I really do have a set. It's neat. Comes with a sword and everything.)
>>1187848
>He forgives those who ought to be forgiven and condemns those who ought to be condemned.
The god(s) described in the abrahamic tradition does absolutely no such thing. He's just an asshole, and that's all.
Happily, this creature is less an ontological reality, and more a projection of what humans would be like if they themselves were gods.
>>1187883
You can believe that until you die, and are face-to-face with Him.
Need I say you are not ready for that meeting?
>ITT: people who don't know anything about the Bible getting BTFO
>>1187676
>perfect god writes a book
Since when?
>>1187868
Dude your trilby almost fell off there
>>1187820
>taking a cosmic baseball bat to Horus's kneecap
>bad
3000 years later, and polytheshits still mad
ITT fedoras getting blown the fuck out
Kek
>>1188068
What's that?
>>1187848
So did those Egyptian babies deserve to be condemned? Or was that just to show everyone that he wasn't fucking around?
What about babies that die without being baptized and are thrown into hell?
>>1188129
The babies that God killed were taken to heaven to live with God forever.
Don't worry about them.
Worry about you.
>>1188129
I don't know the answers to these questions, anything I would say would just be a guess.
>>1187718
Genesis is, as Saint John Chrysostom put it, a "prophecy into the past". It's like Revelations, except looking backward.
>>1188129
>What about babies that die without being baptized and are thrown into hell?
All babies, and all people, who die before they reach their own individual age of accountability are blameless before the Law, and are taken to heaven.
The Kingdom of Heaven is made up of children, and if you want to enter, you must enter as a child enters.
>>1188129
Why don't you read the bible and find out, you fucking incompetent neanderthal?
>>1188129
>What about babies that die without being baptized and are thrown into hell?
This evil teaching is Roman Catholic mind control, making people think that getting their baby's head wet saves their soul.
And the Roman Catholics who are counting on getting their heads wet as babies are going to be shocked when their ambient temperature raises to 2500 degrees centigrade.
Weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth shocked.
>>1188129
I don't know if they deserved it, but people weren't individualistic back then: babies were seen as in unity with their parents and as part of the same religion and ideology, people were looked at in terms of families and tribes, not as individuals. Not until the new covenant does looking at people purely in terms of individuals come into play (Ezekiel 18:20)
We don't know where unbaptized babies go.
>>1188207
>We don't know where unbaptized babies go.
You don't know where you're going.
I guarantee it.
>>1188166
Doesn't that make it more ethic to abort children? Since that spares no chance of them not being saved? Like, yes, it would doom the parent, but wouldn't it be a selfless act of parental love?
>>1188226
I find this line of thinking so evil and alien to my being.
>God who engineered creation writes a book
>Not a single ecuation, law, breakthrough or anything that could further our understanding of creation or at least certify that the one who wrote it was not an ignorant barbarian
>In fact the first book is so scientifically incorrect most denominations now pretend its a metaphor/prank/2deep4u
>>1188211
That's true.
>>1187693
>you're not a very good reader, are you?
>GENESIS 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
>GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
or is it
>GENESIS 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
>GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
So, which is it. Genesis 1:25, he created the beasts first, or Genesis 2:18, he created Man first, and then beasts?
Or what about god's opinion of what he'd made.
>Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Or is it Genesis 6:5-6
>5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
>6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
So either he saw everything he's made and it was good. or it wasnt, because men are wicked. which he'd created. Which one?
and so on.
>>1188239
*tips*
>>1188233
But you can send so many baby souls to heaven, and all it costs is your one soul going to hell.
>>1188243
Man and beast made Day Six, and nothing you say in this post is a contradiction.
Everything God made was good.
Then mankind joined satan's rebellion, sinned, died, and the entire creation was cursed.
lrn2r34d
>>1188240
John the beloved apostle says that all Christians can know that they are saved and heaven bound, and yet here you are, not knowing you're not saved, but thinking your church will somehow sneak you in.
>>1188263
I don't usually advocate people killing themselves, but I do see the necessity.
>>1188311
>Man and beast made Day Six, and nothing you say in this post is a contradiction.
Yes, but one was made before the other.
>>1188319
The word translated as "know" is "eido" not "ginosko".
>>1188331
Common understanding is that first things are mentioned first. Why are you so confused? Is it fun to be confused?
>>1188340
Wow, St. Peter will let you right in with witty observations like that! You'll totally get in!
>>1187676
I hope you're talking about the Qu'ran, right? The book that actually claims to have been written by god?
>téléchargement
Of course you're not talking about the Qu'ran you spineless faggot. Talking shit about the Qu'ran gets you killed.
>>1188365
It claims to have been written by allah, not God.
Al-lah is Hubal is HaBaal is the Ba'al of the Moabites.
The Arabs have never worshiped the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Just the gods Abraham left when God called him out of Ur of the Chaldeas.
>>1187676
The contradictions aren't as disenchanting as the fact that a tremendous amount of the Bible is traced in previous books, mythologies, folklores, traditions, philosophers, etc. It's crystal fucking clear to anyone with half a brain that Christianity was a philosophical and cultural progression. A literal, supernatural being had nothing to do with it. God was symbolism.
>>1188383
Nice job. 100% lies. 100% bullshit. Very tenacious a student of your father you are.
>>1188311
>Man and beast made Day Six, and nothing you say in this post is a contradiction.
Wow. that's some serious fact-denial going on there.
let me repeat that since you have severe cognitive disabilities. Lets boil it down to the facts, no 16th C language to confuse you.
Genesis 1:25 God made all the animals.
then
Genesis 1:26 God Makes Man in his image.
OR
Genesis 2: 7 God formed man from the dust of the ground,
then
Genesis 2:18 God said, man should not be alone
Genesis 2:19 God then creates every animal, for Adam, who named them.
Gen 1:25: Create the Animals, then Man
Gen 2: 7, 2:18: Create Man, then Animals.
If you cannot see a contradiction in that, then you are utterly delusional.
>>1188322
Weird. I read your post over and over but I don't see the argument.
>>1188390
>doesn't know everything is in a time loop including God
>>1188390
God brought all the animals He made before He made Adam to Adam in order for Adam to name them.
Collaboration between Creator and created, which is of course the meaning of life.
And why your life has no meaning.
If you want, you can dive into the different Hebrew verb tenses, and that will explain to you the past pluperfect imperative used, or you can just nod and wonder off.
>>1188394
Kill yourself?
>>1188360
I mean that my salvation is always in question,and I can never take it for granted.
>>1188457
Still not seeing that argument.
>>1188452
>God brought all the animals He made before He made Adam to Adam in order for Adam to name them.
Yes.
AFTER saying "man shouldnt be alone", and creating them.
Whereas in the other version, it says he created the beasts.
then it says he created man.
How can you not understand that this is a contradiction?
>If you want, you can dive into the different Hebrew verb tenses, and that will explain to you the past pluperfect imperative used, or you can just nod and wonder off
Oh, go on, explain to me what it says in hebrew then. I'm sure you're fluent in it....
>Perfect God designs the human species
>Haemoglobin's affinity with carbon monoxide is 210 times greater than with oxigen
Either God doesnt exist or he is planning to gas us in mass.
>>1188462
I'm telling you as your elder that you are not saved.
That you need to read the bible, specifically Romans 10, and learn what to do in order to be saved.
And then do those things, and be saved.
>>1188466
Die?
>>1188484
God did not create any animal in response to Him saying "man should not be alone". That line of thought ended with the creation of Eve.
>fucktards think earth is God's playground
>earth was granted to us
>blame God for everything we caused
>>1187885
You needn't, as no such thing will take place.
>>1187729
That guy looks like Joey from Friends.
>>1188528
then why does it say
>And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them:
That is clear - god makes a statement, then does the action of forming out of the ground, and then brings them to adam.
Or do you believe that you can simply re-write this supposedly "holy" book when you encounter inconvenient facts that contradict each other?
and this is just one of how many hundreds of such contradictions?
>>1188545
Most of the things people compaint about have nothing to do with our actions.
>>1188553
You will find to your horror that you are wrong.
>>1188521
Can you summarize that?
>>1188387
You limit the actual teachings of Christ by holding onto such a primitive, shallow understanding of what he said.
For example, he said that the kingdom of heaven is within you. And yet, people still talk about heaven as if it's somewhere you go to after physically passing. This isn't just a misunderstanding, this is a blatant lack of reading comprehension.
>>1188566
I did warn you.
Hebrew word is in its pluperfect form. It reads that God “had formed” these creatures, as some other translations have it (e.g. ESV, NIV, etc.).
Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them.
>>1188592
Gargle bleach?
>>1188602
He actually said that the Kingdom of God was in their midst. That they, the pharisees, supposedly looking for their Messiah, were literally standing next to their God and did not know it.
Where the King is, so is the Kingdom.
>>1187885
He knows my fate before I'm there.
Before I was, he knew it then.
Know salvation isn't yours to share.
Know it was never meant for some men.
>>1188610
Break that down for me.
>>1188591
No, I won't. And I more rightly, and more correctly, feel sorry for you, than you may for me.
>>1188615
>He actually said that the Kingdom of God was in their midst
That's a modern version. It was "within you" before that version. Regardless, the meaning of this passage is the same: the kingdom of heaven, and God, always is, it's not somewhere you go to at some point. It is always there for you to access.
The real teachings of Christ were butchered by people who misunderstood him. He proposed a lifestyle of beauty and happiness in the now, not as something that comes after this, and certainly not as a reward.
>>1188619
Very pretty, yes.
And since you don't know God, you don't know that it is not His will that any should perish, but that all come to salvation through Christ Jesus.
>>1188624
Breathe helium?
>>1188608
I hope that you know that your inability to form proper English sentences really doesn't support your claim of Hebrew proficiency.
>>1188640
You feel nothing for anyone but yourself, as you are an autistic atheist lacking all empathy. Your brain works the same way a psychopath's brain works.
Nobody feel sorry for people who love God and are happy with their lives.
>>1188642
Heaven is coming here. The third heaven, I mean. Not our two. Not the atmo, not space. The third heaven where God and the angels live. It's coming here.
And unless you change your mind (repent) you will not be here to see it happen.
>>1188644
You know God?
What makes your claim stronger than a Calvinist's?
>>1188651
The last line is the verse. The former two are terse, as I don't like sharing the truth with satan's children.
In the most non-confrontational way possible, I would really enjoy reading what people have to say about some of the contradictions in this list:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/jim-goad/2014/05/30-pairs-of-bible-verses-that-contradict-one-another/
>>1188660
Many Calvinists know Jesus. Nobody has to tell someone else who knows Jesus anything about Jesus. They both know the same person.
>>1188663
>I don't like sharing the truth with satan's children.
Don't they need it most?
Doesn't take a saint to love the innocent.
>>1188663
Your writing is literally incomprehensible, I have no idea what you're trying to communicate.
>>1188666
Calvinists believe some people were doomed from birth, and others were saved from birth - because of fate.
>>1188659
But that's not what he said.
>>1188665
Sure. The first one is the unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. All other sin was forgiven everyone at the cross. There's only one sin that's left unpardoned; blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is Unbelief.
The Holy Spirit is the witness telling you that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Believe Him, and you are saved. Disbelieve Him, and you call Him a liar, for His witness is sure. And by calling the Holy Spirit a liar, you say He does the work of the devil, as all lies do the work of the devil.
But blasphemy against the Father or Son was forgiven at the cross. They are Who they are. The Father is the Father and the Son is finished with His work. Both are waiting for the Holy Spirit to finish transforming the last of the humans into new creations in Christ Jesus.
The three persons of the Trinity all have something like this. The above for the Spirit; the Father does not know Jesus' new name; and Jesus does not know when the Father will deem the New Jerusalem ready for occupancy.
>>1188668
Yes, which is why I am here.
>>1188688
Do you feel your putdowns breed understanding?
>>1188608
Oooh. warned.
So, what you're saying is, that the "word of God" isnt the word of god. its the word of men, which gets changed and corrupted, and re-written in hundreds of dialects and languages, hence that misunderstanding of context and chronology.
but Proverbs 30:5 says
"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him"
So either the bible is the word of god.... in which case, it cannot be corrupted... or the bible has been corrupted, as you say, in which case, that is again a contradiction.
and how can you believe that the Hebrew version is uncorrupted from when this was compiled more than 2 millennia ago? Do you seriously think that that one specific language has remained utterly unchanged sicne then, that you can interpret its context correctly?
Again, more contradictions.
>>1188672
>I did warn you.
Control F for "pluperfect".
>Hebrew word is in its pluperfect form.
The Hebrew word you are stuck on is not well read as "formed". It reads that God “had formed” these creatures, as some other translations have it (e.g. ESV, NIV, etc.).
>"Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them."
That is how the verse is properly read, taking into consideration that the Hebrew verse is in the pluperfect.
>>1187693
>I can't find any of the supposed "glaring, earth-shattering contradictions"
I can: I'm jesus, I'm not here to change the law but we are going to do things fucking differently.
Btw, I'm God and the antichrist will claim he is God. Btw, the antichrist will rise from the abyss, just like me rising from the dead. Btw, the antichrist will be at it 42 months, just the time I was at it. Btw, my followers claim to be christian but are suspiciously unable to do the miracles a christian allegedly would do, so they claim that are jews (christians) but are not. Btw, my image of me, that I was wounded but lived is worshipped, just like the beast!. Btw, many who do not worship me were killed (inquisition, etc) just like the antichrist, guise. Btw, people receive my mark unwillingly, just like the antichrist, since you're baptised traitorously at birth.
But surely jesus is true and you all will do hundreds of miracles worthy of a god in this thread.
>>1188674
Yes, the hard Calvinists did, which is why their church died. You can take that as a natural consequence, or as the result of God's action. I can't help you decide that.
The hard Calvinists read the bible, knew that God knew who would be saved before He made the world, and concluded that the "elect" were therefore set in stone; that God in His sovereignty picked people He wanted, and did not pick anyone else.
Which runs contrary to the will of God, that none perish but all be saved.
Calvin in this was wrong because He could not understand that God only chose the people who chose Him, as God acted first, and the people acted much later.
God sees the end from the beginning.
Calvin's God was too small.
>>1188676
Are we back on "the kingdom of God is in your midst"?
Because I went way past that. I'm looking into the future, not the past. The Second Coming, not the first.
Because Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there you may be also."
>>1188707
Infographic version.
>>1188692
I put rocks in shoes.
>>1188699
No, I'm saying learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek if you want to read the bible in its original languages.
Oh, and be filled with the Holy Spirit, or you won't understand it then either.
>>1188707
Counterfeits are made to appear to be Original, the post.
Shocking new discovery!
>>1188700
Thank you for actually writing in proper sentences.
It seems like you're removing the quote from its context and claiminng it's not a contradiction. You still have this objection in the ESV, since it seems to be implied still that the beasts had been formed after God noticed Adam was lonely. Read here:
>Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” 19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
There's no indicator in the text that the Lord "had formed" the beasts at a diffferent time that he called upon them. If anything, this passage is temporally ambiguous.
>>1188742
>Counterfeits are made to appear to be Original
Sure m8, and if you defend jesus, go ahead and do a miracle to prove he is not counterfeit, which I guess is your argument.
>>1188710
If God did not wish for the wicked to be, and to be punished, why would he allow them to come into being, and to be punished?
He already knew who wouldn't choose him. Why allow them to fail? There is no test to which he doesn't know the answer.
Before you say you can't have good without the possibility of evil or you can't be saved without free-will, I say that would be attributing limits to God's power.
>>1188736
>Oh, and be filled with the Holy Spirit, or you won't understand it then either.
Oh, so, if you dont beleive it, you cant understand it.
well, that's a great get-out-of-jail-free card, isnt it? you can just pretend that anyone who can see the bullshit, the contradictions and all the other bits of nonsense "doesnt have the holy spirit".
Well, I suppose I shouldnt be too surprised to learn that demented cultists have all the fucked-up excuses already penned out, eh?
>>1188665
The second one is the two covenants, the Old becoming obsolete and the New taking primacy.
There's another thing to remember though. The promise to Abraham, that his descendants would live in Israel forever, was over 400 years prior to the Old Covenant. That promise is eternal, and God took both parts of the covenant. God walked through the butchered animals while Abraham slept. So that covenant relies on God remaining God.
The Old Covenant was all about earthly things. Do good and be blessed, do evil and be cursed. Blessings were things like lending and not borrowing, more flour for your kneading bowl, your crops would flourish, your enemies get killed by God, and your treasures would not spoil.
All of those blessings required perfection, or they would not be delivered. But the curses from breaking the Law, those were frequently delivered, up to and including the destruction of the country by the Babylonians, etc.
The Old Covenant had no way for humans to know the living God, or achieve righteousness, or live with God in heaven.
Hence the New Covenant where Jesus did everything up to and including being tortured to death on a cross and dying, having taken the sins of mankind onto Himself, suffering the wrath of God, and giving up His Spirit and dying.
To enter into that covenant, a person needs to confess out loud that Jesus is Lord believing in his heart God raised Him from the dead.
tl;dr The Old Covenant was made to show mankind we were not like God. The New Covenant was made to consent to God transforming us into new creations so that we could once again live face-to-face with God.
>>1188718
I'm skeptical about the "second coming" nonsense. The attitude changes throughout the bible, at one point it seems to have a cheerful tone, the next there is an ominous one, a sense of forewarning. A separate place contradicts the line that the kingdom of heaven is within you, also — just more evidence that something here is not genuine to Christ.
But, really now. What comes after death is absence of consciousness. We know this, it can be tested. Death can also be avoided via dissolution of the ego. So unless this absence of consciousness is heaven to you, I wouldn't put all your eggs into this one basket, of a notion that comes as almost a contradiction in a book.
>>1188729
A classic Satanic prank.
>>1188665
1. Thou shalt not murder. The author confuses killing with murder. Obeying God when God says go to war and kill the enemy is not murder.
2. The grass is burnt up. It regrows. The second verse excludes further harm to the regrown grass. This is infantile.
3. Lying lips v God allowing a demon to influence King Ahaz. Don't lie. And God sent a demon to lie to King Ahaz.
4. It took the city three days to burn.
5. Paul and James are saying the same thing; that proper faith in the risen Christ Jesus will automatically produce the works that God has in store for a man. Salvation first, works flow therefrom.
There's really no substance in these.
>>1188758
Read it again. God took the beasts He had formed in the past and ran them by Adam.
>>1188766
He already did a miracle within me, and is willing to do one for you, insane Spaniard though you may be.
>>1188772
You're asking why God created free will moral agents with the requisite sovereignty to reject His love and affection, or to choose to live in a loving and dependent relationship with Him.
It's because He is Love, not Rape. In order for love to exist, real love, real honest to God love, we had to be free to reject Him, because He is love and He will not force Himself onto anyone.
>>1188802
It's all of those things, depending upon your perspective. To the angels, it's the final act in this play they have been watching and waging war in for thousands of years. To the Church, it is the final justice, the Day of the Lord, when we will rule and reign with Him over this fallen earth. To the ones left behind, it will be an event never to be forgotten, lighting up the universe as the sun, moon and stars went dark earlier.
You cannot test anything after death, so don't pretend you can. You'll just lose yourself down some stupid rabbithole of DMT and pot.
>>1188837
Have the Muslims no such claims themselves? These out-of-sight miracles. These hidden truths. These personal revelations.
Better yet, do not the schizophrenics?
>>1188319
By that line of thought, nobody has free will since God predestines some to be saved. After all if this is not the case, those who fall away are in fact once saved but they forgo it.
But if they can forgo this such would entail that they are somehow still not completely saved yet. They must hold onto the gift they received.
Hence either god indeed treats us all as puppets for your view to work, or he doesn't, making your view illogical.
>>1188866
Not really, no. They say he cut the moon in two, but they're kind of sheepish about it. There's no miracles in the qur'an, no prophecy, just warlord predictions from a warlord.
>>1188847
If he really wanted to create free moral agents then he shouldn't create the punishment for the wrong choice. It is like giving a choice to person while arming a gun on their head. Doesn't counts as a really free in my book.
>>1188876
Free will is only understood to be the ability to choose from among your available options. You do not have free will to jump to the moon, or to surprise God.
>>1188847
>In order for love to exist, real love, real honest to God love, we had to be free to reject Him
Couldn't he make it so free-will wasn't a requirement? Then he isn't all-powerful.
>He is love and He will not force Himself onto anyone
He forced us into being. Into being subject to his judgement.
Love as a force higher even than God, to which he can only conform not exert control is a pretty thought, but I doubt you would support that view.
>>1188876
>They must hold onto the gift they received.
Is that how gifts work in your life?
No, the gift is a permanent transformation that cannot be lost, and cannot be dependent upon the human in the slightest bit or it fails.
>>1188881
Laws without punishments are bumper stickers.
>>1188886
No power can exert itself into a paradox and make the paradox true.
Power is only good to accomplish all things.
A paradox is not a thing.
Being forced to love someone is not love.
>>1188889
Only to those that act out of fear and greed.
>>1188894
You can act however you want. By your actions, you will have violated all 613 of God's commandments.
>>1188889
So... God actually created a laws instead of giving people a free choice now? Because you can't give people a laws but they that they are free to ignore them is they want. It isn't how laws work.
The reason the Bible is "perfect" is because Christians with rationalize and mental wank whatever you throw at them, even if it's the most ridiculous shit like people living over 900 years. This is how dogma works; you already accept that the bible is perfect then work from there. Talking to cultists is like talking to a brick wall so don't bother.
>>1188893
>No power can exert itself into a paradox and make the paradox true.
Not even God's?
>>1188833
>Read it again.
No u:
Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”
This is a sentence that provides context for what is to be described.
>Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens
The "now" prefacing this sentence indicates that God took this action as a response to sensing Adam was lonely.
>and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
The choice of "and" as a connector suggests that the two events (god forming the beasts and bringing them to Adam) happened one after the other. If they didn't happen sequentially, there are much better ways to connect these two clauses. Those ways would have been used by the ESV translators if your argument is true, since it is a modern English translation.
>>1187676
It would have been a pretty insane Manga.
>>1188882
Means that moral freedom is a sham basically as God could just take option to be bad from us, like he tale our option to jump unto the moon or such.
>>1188902
You can ignore them.
You can try to follow them.
You can devote your entire life to attempting to keep them all.
Any way you want to live your life, you will have violated all 613 commandments, the penalty for most of them being death.
>>1188860
And to Christ, it is something within you and in your midst. The rest is whatever.
>You cannot test anything after death
That's because there isn't anything after death. If you break down our consciousness logically, you would understand that the "you" and "I" that we refer to, the egos, are just constructs. Anything defined "outside" the body is a construct, but the body and these constructs are all there is. Upon death, our organic systems begin to shut down, cells decay, energy is transferred elsewhere. What comes after death has nothing to do with what we understand of the world, all physical laws, everything does not occur after death — only nothingness is after death. Logically, a physical or even mental place you "visit" after death, makes no sense at all.
>>1188905
It's inspired by God. Don't worry about it. It's a God thing. You wouldn't understand.
>>1188900
If God really wanted commandment to be followed he would made murder of an another human being physically impossible.
>>1188911
Yeah.
He made Eve.
What part of that don't you understand?
>>1188900
I'll have followed some. Without expectation of heaven and hell.
>>1188916
Use what you have been given wisely.
>>1188928
See this is exactly what I'm saying. You already accept that it's perfect because you presuppose that it's inspired by God, because it's a part of your dogma. Like taking to a wall.
>>1188882
You are not addressing the argument.
The act of free will and deciding amongst options require deliberation. Deliberation naturally entails effort as it would take to do anything in varying degrees. But to deny any effort on part of the human agent in Salvation entails that there is no free will for the human agent cannot make any effort at all to choose or accept Salvation. But this entails that effort is required to be Saved which you don't accept.
Ergo, either your view makes no sense or there is no free will.
>>1188888
Too bad. That's what the Scripture says. You are not to dindu nuffin. You must literally have works which entails free agency, otherwise, James' own statement would make no sense at all given that such is made with the intention to warn and edify his audience. But the act of warning presupposes a free agent who is vulnerable hence the warning needed to edify him in times of difficulty and not to be slothful.
But by your view, this is nonsensical and inconsistent. If Salvation is really as you say, James wouldn't bother warning and making that statement since it is permanent and cannot be undone.
Either way such a view entails no free will and every individual being God's own puppets.
>>1188935
The part where Eve is neither a bird nor a beast of the field.
Read the thread before posting.
>>1188925
> You are truly free to do whatever you want!
> I just kill you if you do A, B, C, X, Y and Z.
>>1188937
James 2
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
Do you want God to judge you under the Law? Under any Law?
>>1188955
There is no free will according to that anon.
If I suck your cock right now, God did it according to his view or he would be inconsistent.
>>1188943
I've tested it for decades. It rings true. And it tells the future as though telling the past.
You merely assume in your ignorance that it cannot be true.
>>1188944
Oh, you're the "effort" moron who will not define "effort".
>>1188963
It's called confirmation bias.
>>1188944
The rest of your incoherent ramblings touch on Tribulation saints and not Christians. I'm only talking about Christians, and of course you don't know the difference between the two groups.
>>1188947
"I will make you an help meet."
"Here's Eve, who I made for you".
Pretty simple.
>>1188967
If I have to define such a simple word for you, it's time to go back to nursery school moron.
>>1188955
Yes. Choose wisely. Your choices matter.
>>1188972
You can call it confirmation bias if you'd like. It was good enough for Alexander the Great. But not good enough for you.
kek
>>1188942
> Use what you have been given
I never wanted a moral freedom. I want God to lead me to my best life directly controlling all my action in this world. He created everything but too scared to hold the complete responsibility for the creation.
>>1188975
Steadfastly refusing to define your terms.
kek
"Works" in the bible are "works under the Law", which would be your obedience to the law, your tithes, your offerings, your prayers, etc.
None of that saves you.
And your "effort" to believe the truth cannot be measured as force acting through a distance.
>>1188984
It's your dogma to unquestioningly believe it and rationalize anything that goes against it, so of course you're going to.
>>1188985
There are a lot of things you never wanted.
Nevertheless, play the hand you were dealt. You will find if you grow wise that God fears nothing; that love drives out fear; that perfect love drives out all fear.
>>1188973
You are not addressing the argument.
So, do we have free will or not?
If you answer yes, it entails that you are being inconsistent and contradictory.
If you answer no, it entails God being a ultra puppet master who mind controls all.
>>1188990
Good enough for Alexander the Great.
Not good enough for Anon.
kek
>>1188993
You have the ability to chose from among your available options, yes. You have sovereignty over yourself, yes. You can consent to be saved, or you can remain damned, yes.
You cannot surprise God with your choices, as He knew your choices before He made the earth.
>>1188974
...Except it doesn't seem like you understand what we're discussing.
It was whether man was created before or after animals.
>>1188994
Like talking to a brick wall.
>>1188987
You are not even addressing my argument at this point.
For me to do anything, I naturally exert effort. Some would be little, some would require more effort. Doesn't take half a brain to know this.
This shows how you cannot answer my argument at all
>>1188960
If we such each other's cocks, does that mean God is fellating himself?
>>1188991
> There are a lot of things you never wanted.
How all this is different from the rape at this point again? God is literally the saw character that put you into deadly game where wrong choice would be equal to certain death.
>>1189004
Man was the second to last thing created.
Woman was the last thing created.
Pinnacle of creation? I think so.
This narrative really is not that complicated. Adam was alone in the Garden; for some reason this was not "good", God wanted to make a help meet for Adam; God paraded the animals past Adam; none of them were suitable; God made Eve out of Adam.
>>1189006
Alexander the Great: Good.
Anon: Not good enough.
>>1189011
Your arguments are facile. What work do you do believing the truth? How much force acting at a distance? What of the Law do you obey, believing the truth?
Do you expend effort believing your first name is your first name?
>>1189003
Too bad, you claim Once Saved Always Saved.
This naturally entails no free will or agency since under such a view, anyone who fell away was never really saved in the first place, even if said person consented to it.
For you to even believe in free will you must admit that there is no OSAS but if there is no OSAS this entails that no one's saved and can really dindu nuffin since it's permanent but must exercise effort and take care he doesn't fall away. This entails activity on part of the agent and entails effort, just as it takes effort by definition to even consent.
Thus, your view is inconsistent or you must deny free will. There is no middle way or escape.
>>1189024
You're already starting the game out dead.
God is offering you the only way you can come alive.
You just think you're alive, because you're physically alive and are not aware of your separation from God, Who is Life.
You're a dead man, right now. You don't have God in you, so you don't have Life in you.
>>1189045
And I couch it in this age, in the Church age, which is why if I'm talking about Tribulation saints, or Old Testament saints, I don't use the same terms.
God says choose.
You can choose.
>>1189040
I naturally exert effort to exercise free will or even consent to anything. Too bad.
If I do not exert any effort, it entails something else exerting it and not me hence no free will.
>>1189013
Wanna find out :3
>>1189053
How many joules?
>>1189053
Well, you make sure you don't exert any effort into getting yourself out of hell and into heaven.
kek
Since "preservation of effort" seems to be your goal in life.
>>1189050
No.
I cannot according to your view since God already does it for me. I can't do anything on my own or I would be exerting effort. But you deny effort in Salvation.
In fact, James is also wrong and so is Paul according to you since James' statement on faith without works would be nonsensical according to your view and Paul's "faith" is actually "faithfulness" which naturally entails effort which you deny.
By contrast, many recent studies of the Greek word pistis have concluded that its primary and most common meaning was faithfulness, meaning firm commitment in an interpersonal relationship.[14][15][16][17] As such, the word could be almost synonymous with "obedience" when the people in the relationship held different status levels (e.g. a slave being faithful to his master). Far from being equivalent to "lack of human effort", the word seems to imply and require human effort. The interpretation of Paul's writings that we need to "faithfully" obey God's commands is quite different from one which sees him saying that we need to have "faith" that he will do everything for us. This is also argued to explain why James was adamant that "faith without works is dead" and that "a man is saved by works, and not by faith alone", while also saying that to merely believe places one on the same level as the demons (see James 2). The "new" perspective argues that James was concerned with those who were trying to reduce faith to an intellectual subscription without any intent to follow God or Jesus, and that Paul always intended "faith" to mean a full submission to God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul#Faith.2C_or_faithfulness
>>1189048
> God is offering you the only way
God knows that I would prefer to never exist to his sadistic game but forced me to participate despite this. Seems like it was a rape after all.
>>1189033
Go back and read the discussion.
>>1188959
If your view is correct he will judge me however he wishes, and my wants are of little consequence. Since other sources, with no less evidence of their truth, disagree on your book in one or more points, I reserve my judgement.
>>1189082
> some actions require less effort than others
Could be an illusion. Like people like to claim that they are done everything they can while done fuck all.
>>1189084
Not a chance. You're a dolt who cannot understand a simple timeline.
>>1189093
Yes, He will judge you dead, guilty of breaking all of His laws, unlike Him in every way, and cast your soul into hellfire for eternal torment.
Great plan.
>>1189073
Yes, Anon, everyone is wrong but you, and it's terrible that anyone expects you to expend any effort in your own salvation.
>>1189035
>>Alexander the Great was a bible banger or some shit
Are you always this retarded?
>>1189079
You screwed that up and exist. Play the hand you were dealt. You can win.
>>1189099
People claiming to have "done everything" while doing nothing doesn't make it an illusion. It just means people can lie about doing things.
Either way, my point still stands and yours don't
>>1189082
In the Church age, once saved always saved, with maximum status and maximum reward in the Kingdom of God.
Or you can wait and take your chances for less, and end up in burning sulfur.
>>1189119
Too bad, if you can't handle my points then shut up.
>>1189120
Maybe google Josephus and Alexander the Great and Daniel and read some history.
>>1189129
You literally spout nonsense. People try to be polite to you because we assume your life is tragic.
>Berieving in someting require effort! No!
>>1189127
It doesn't matter as according to you human beings don't put in any effort in Salvation. They also don't have free will since you also believe in OSAS.
If there is OSAS, this entails that no one can even give consent given that those who fell away aren't really saved despite their consent. This means God makes them choose him but this naturally leads to God being a mind control freak.
So you bringing in Rapture shit ain't gonna work
>>1187676
>God wrote the bible
what
>>1189136
Look at this piece of shit projecting.
Wow!
What does my own life gotta do with the argument?
You can't even answer my argument satisfactorily and you dare call it nonsense? Just fuck off.
>>1189145
God is basically a human so it isn't far fetched that people believe he can write things down.
>>1188185
Do you pray to your God with that Potty Mouth?
>>1189116
He will know best then. I won't speak for him.
>>1189013
I think it's more like when a kid mashes two dolls together and says they're kissinv
>>1187676
>God writes a book
I mean, I guess, if you use a game of writer's Telephone as accreditation to the original content provider.
Where in the bible is it stated and proven that all of the prophets and the like who wrote the book were infallible? Or that all revelations and the like have to be completely coherent and automatically if the prophets perfect knowledge?
No, the actual view in the bible is that God and his Holy Ghost reveals himself to man, delivers them to the right and proper knowledge in the best way that communicates the message and then has the men follow his virtuous Law.
Did the Lord say that the Sun and moon stopped for Joshua? Or did Joshua and his fellow Jews see this and interpretated to the best of their abilities the event that took place?
The bible is a book of human spiritual development and encounters with the highest octave of thought, this is God.
No two prophets have to ever prophesied in the same manner.
Let it be understood, the bible was written under the influence of the Holy Spirit by ordinary human men with ordinary human understanding.
>>1187676
>perfect god writes a book
I'm sick of this meme
>>1187794
No body is good according to Christianity, no body is righteous except for the Lord.
This is why self-development and self-refinement are such big things in Christianity proper.
You can never be perfect but if you allow it and seek for it, the Holy Spirit can temper you into something better.
"Most men are wicked" - Bias of
Priene
Note the idea of works being needed for faith is understood as such.
Acting good does not give you entrance to heaven, however accepting the Holy Spirit into yourself will automatically if you obey it cause you to act and do in a more just, good and righteous manner.
This is automatic. This is proof of the Holy Spirit within you, therefore the Holy Spirit is the only Good and thing which gives the true Good.
>>1189294
Does the individual acts in obedience to the Spirit or is he overridden by it?
Would he be reduced to nothing more than passive under such a state?
If so then any idea of self development goes out the window.
Catholics
>Eat your veggies first, dessert will come later... maybe. If you don't like your veggies and refuse to eat them, well, you're going to Hell son.
Atheists
>I'm not a kid, I'll eat what I want, when I want. I'll have my dessert first if that's what I feel like. I might not even eat the veggies. I'll get fat and have a heart attack eventually, but whatever, I had fun.
God
>I am what I eat, and I eat everything.
>>1189294
Don't systematize the scriptures and don't interpret it intellectually.
>>1187693
Matthew has Jesus parents fleeing to Egypt to avoid Herod, who is killing newborns. Herod dies in 4 BC.
Luke has him being born during the census of Quirinius. Quirinius was only in a position to conduct such a census in 6-7 AD.
>Gap of 11 years
Apologists have been trying to refute this one forever but they haven't managed a decent one.
>>1188250
>*tips*
excellent argument
>>1189310
In christianity personality matters, God trough his energies will give you power and life - forever developing into it, stability of your personality and being, unbound joy.
There is no such thing as an absorption in God - none of the creation mix in God, or get assimilated. God is self-sufficient in eternity and is absolute, creation is the product of love.
An impersonal god, a mysterious energy in which you get dissolved is a pagan concept, sadly spread within heretical churches like catholic and protestant ones.
Brother, if you want to approach God - go to an orthodox church and know that you just have to love God and your fellow humans, we're all suffering and life is hard - try your best to not sin too much - accept your state, recognize the evil and helplessness within you, be humble because your God is humble and allow Him to build on this shared trait He can make you an everlasting king in heaven, there is a great place for humans in God plan, a place of glory and grace and it's lasting forever.
>>1189328
Why not?
>>1189310
>Does the individual acts in obedience to the Spirit or is he overridden by it?
Obedience. The whole point is obedience to God, overcoming even the perceptions of good and evil, right and wrong to take on the higher way and to eventually draw the man closer to that holy trinity.
>Would he be reduced to nothing more than passive under such a state?
Nope, you will always have a choice and even in heaven will rewards and glory be different. You are not a machine but a man on the path of self-conquest.
2 millennia later people are still trying to find arguments against Christianity in attempt to convince ardent followers
niggas just let them believe what they want, the Catholic Church does a lot of charity for the world, it isn't killing anybody
>>1189322
This probably sounded better in your head.
>>1189375
If I may recommend, try a Pentecostal church out.
You will definitely establish an emotional/passion driven connection to the divine in a faster manner in a Pentecostal church.
>>1189365
If people keep making stupid claims, I'm gonna keep calling them stupid.
>>1189388
I say it again - the divine is not an impersonal energy - which techniques or chanting invokes or assumes control of.
God is an absolute Person, one being and three Persons - sharing the same absolute divinity in eternity.
God is a Person and will reveal to you only if He desires so, based on His decisions and on His will - HE is the absolute Person, not possible to trick or manipulate.
Your pentecostal church is demonic, heretical on all levels.
Sadly people today don't want to be aware of demons and their reality - orthodoxy is rich in lives of saints that dealt with them, assistance of apostolic church and truth in Spirit.
Are you forgetting that Jesus cast demons away, encountered and had dialogues with them.
It was not in a dream state, nor it was in another world - it was here on earth with awake human witnesses.
>>1189416
All of this does not factor into what I have posted.
Pentecostal churches rely on large amounts of prayer and singing in order to minister to the soul and raise the Mind of the person to a state proper to give devotion to God in a right and proper manner.
In this manner, the Pentecostal churches worship God through the passions and emotions.
The more organized and ceremonial churches worship God through the intellect.
Yes worshipping him through the intellect is superior, however utilizing the passions and turning them towards him is a great thing and a much easier start.
Ideally one should eventually worship God both with his passions and his intellect.
Book never contradicted itself if god became man. And if the religion starts to revolve around business matter and conduct.
>>1187693
Son, you better read that thing again.
Genesis alone is a mess.
I'm not an atheist, btw. The best people I know are Christians. And the best Christians I know accept that men are fallible creatures. This includes the dudes who transcribed the Septuagint, and even the apostles themselves.
but god didn't even write it
>read whole thread
>both sides of the argument don't make a single good point against the other
Amazing
>>1188866
>These out-of-sight miracles
Nigga there are so many plain and for everyone to see miracles in Christianity that you must be blind not to see them.
>>1188900
>all 613 of God's commandments.
>following Mosaic ceremonial law
Christians don't do that
>>1189416
>God is an absolute Person
Kek.
>"But if cattle and horses and lions had hands or could paint with their hands and create works such as men do,
horses like horses and cattle like cattle
also would depict the gods' shapes and make their bodies of such a sort as the form they themselves have."
-Xenophanes
Daily reminder that God is human and we made him.
>>1187676
>Scarrification is a sin against the body
>Circumcision is mandatory
That's OT
A god of love wouldn't want you to mutilate your newborn infant. And he certainly wouldn't want a homosex rabbi finishing the genital mutilation with his teeth, as is custom.
>>1189355
put back your trip on shillantine
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_scientific_errors
>>1189938
>Biblical scientific errors amount to evidence against Biblical scientific foreknowledge and Biblical literalism
As stated those are not "errors" but arguments against wrong interpretations
>>1189958
So literal is out then?
>>1189958
>Due to the problems that a literal interpretation of this verse as it stands would pose for engineering, mathematics, and reality, literalists have proposed several alternate ways to intepret the verse. While many are inherently flawed, even a valid response would still show that the Bible itself is not "self-evident" and doesn't have enough clarity to make simple statements about the world. And if the Bible is unclear or inaccurate here, why should it be trusted on more important matters, like the age of the earth (calculated via math)?
>>1189967
It was never "in"
>>1189981
>don't ever talk to me or me, my son, ever again
ftfy
