What was Orwells goal with 1984? Was it really a warning or satire?
He was just writing about what the world was turning into. Furthermore, he was also entirely right. Newspeak is a thing, soldiers on overseas occupation missions are called "peace troops" etc.
Considering that he figured our future could best be described as a boot pressing down on a human face forever, I'd say it was a warning brought about of his thorough pessimism resulting from how the spanish revolution went down for him.
>>1187653
He wasn't right, in no way are we near the levels of 1984.
I'm on an Orwell binge right now and its interesting to note his optimistic leftist views slowly transition into bitter cynicism of any government.
>>1187643
If you'll read his essays you'll know that he felt that the world is turning into certain direction but it was up to the people whether they'll control it and use that "inertia" for their good or let it go over their head and turn into totalitarian state.
>>1187643
Reminder that Orwells was right about nearly everything. His idea of "common decency" is anything but obsolete and should be adopted by our civilization in order to escape moral decay.
>Brave New World
>>1187653
and governments are starting to arrest people for thought crimes, just through the internet instead of the telescreen
>>1187682
What's the gist of that idea?
>>1187690
A computer basically is a telescreen. And because of modern society you more or less have to have internet.
I'm amazed he was able to see that one coming, if a bit inaccurately.
Well there is one nation that is frightningly close to his dystopian nightmare.
>>1187720
North Korea is simply too blantantly dystopian to be just like 1984.
Ingsoc for the overwhelming majority of the population was actually very subtle.
>>1187683
the modern world is basically a combination of Brave New World and 1984. Real life wasn't contrived enough to go all carrot or all stick
>>1187720
>Cell phones have been banned
This is not true, Cell phones in NK are quite common and have become a big fashion symbol, one of the few ways to express wealth and status. There is no true internet but they can use them for some things.
>>1187731
Fair enough, but would say it is about 3/4 Brave New World and 1/4 1984
>>1187720
Nice propaganda you've got there mr. reddit.
>>1187711
a Computer is basically a library not a Tele
it was crazy how he basically predicted the cultural revolution with the spies
>>1187926
Hello NSA.
>>1187887
Nice try Kim.
>>1187643
it was a warning by taking his argument to its most extreme.
He was right that national governments would strive for more social control, to introduce new rhetoric, redefining old terms to fit new situations, but the methods explained in 1984 are taken to such an extreme level that it's appalling and sends the message to the reader much more clearly than the subtle and slow changes that take place in reality.
Best example I can think of is China's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. both were propaganda pieces pitched by Beijing to be wondrous changes bring to bring Utopia to the people and whatnot, but what happened was introducing new ideas, new social structures, and forced evictions/relocations that resulted in better governmental control of the general population.
like I said, much more subtle and slow changes have taken place almost everywhere else, but generally goes under the general population's nose to where people just don't notice it right away.
one can argue about how the patriot act was a seminal event in that direction, but I generally only see those turn into a shitshow.
>>1187662
>its interesting to note his optimistic leftist views slowly transition into bitter cynicism of any government.
So he got smarter as he got older. got it
>>1187643
It was more than political, it was about the potential for technology and psychology to be used to completely eliminate the possibility of revolution thereby dooming humanity to dictatorship forever.
Prophesy.
If you enjoyed 1984 you'll love Fahrenheit 451. Its crazy that it was written in the 1950's.
>>1187727
>Ingsoc for the overwhelming majority of the population was actually very subtle.
You what?
>>1189580
F451 is honestly much better than 1984. 1984's ending was retarded imo, and Orwell tried too hard to be edgy with all the sex stuff and making that one chick out to be a slut. Meanwhile, Bradbury showed a moral side to a character rebelling against authority.
>>1187643
>anglo socialist preaching about his special flavour of socialism
Just like Mosley. Hayek was right about the brits
>>1189643
go away Turkroach
His goal was to air out his cynicism and poor understanding of political theory.
Winston giving into to big brother at the end? Orwell's own choice of choosing to give names of reds to the British government. The depressing thought of tyranny winning forever, his own poor state of health at the time and the inevitable death. Having an affair with a young girl who's into a bunch of kinky shit despite portraying herself as a prude? Babies first fetish.
However other people will ascribe a lot more meaning to it because they can't stop from eating out of the ideological trash can.
>muh totalitarianism
>muh horseshoe theory
>muh government acts based solely on some nebulous concept of power
>muh liberalism is true
>muh poor understanding of Bolshevik and fascist thought
Anyway here's some smug anime grill
>>1189716
>30 posts before a communist starts shitposting
impressive for /his/ desu
>>1189716
>2016
>Still trying communism
>>1189721
I'm going to enjoy crushing the capitalists
Why still believe in 1984 Orwellian meme when our world is heading toward to the Brave New World?
>>1190037
because both are happening
>>1187643
Why are warning sign and satire mutually exclusive?
it's funny when conservatives use orwell to bash socialism because orwell was a self-dentified democratic socialist.
>>1190037
You didn't read 1984 (nor Brave New World, likely), the proles of 1984 live a life very similar to those in BNW.
>>1190085
What? No. Proles in 1984 live and in BNW live are vastly difference. In 1984, their life is restricted by the regime. While in BNW, the have some degree of freedom like in modern world but they are too distracted with entertainment and meme to use it properly. And the said meme made them to choose to restrict their own 'freedom' because they believe that said 'freedom' is not necessary and maybe dangerous. Basically, 1984 is similar to N. Korea while BNW is similar to modern western country with great SJW influence or even better, a democratic muslim country with sharia law like Malaysia.
>>1187643
>What was Orwells goal
The author is dead.
>Was [1984] really a warning or satire?
It is >>>/lit/erature
>>1190186
A job and a litre of beer ain't restriction.
>>1189620
>and Orwell tried too hard to be edgy with all the sex stuff and making that one chick out to be a slut.
Why, it was the ultimate form of rebellion in 1984
>>1187667
I've always liked how so much of his work is direct criticism of "leftists" while he remained a dedicated socialist to his last days
He trolled the shit out of the British intelligentsia and they still hate him for it
>>1190186
Proles are fairly free in 1984 but their life is just football beer and manual labour
>>1189610
If you read the book it becomes clear the proles are kept controlled by the lottery, liquor, and whores.
They waste all their breath arguing about trivial bullshit and never think about why their conditions are so poor or how things could be better.
Their only access to information is through party channels, which are completely manufactured bullshit. For instance it seems they learn about history through the cinema which changes what actually happened for political reasons. Sound familiar?
The only people for whom the party is a major part of life is the actual members. Orwell is very specific about showing the "privileged" outer part members to be actually more controlled than the other groups
>>1190760
this. One of the main points of the novel is that only Outer Party members are in real danger from Big Brother because they're smart enough to commit thoughtcrime but not privileged enough to get away with it
>>1187720
>not Singapore
Top kek
>>1189716
Orwell literally fought fascists and reds in Spain you cuck. His war diary was taken and he barely escaped death (the leader of his unit was not so loudly).
Giving the names of possible Bolsheviks to his country's intelligence service was not something he cared about.
>>1190784
Except that the CPGB's proletarian periphery was far more likely to produce socialism than a lion and unicorn. Giving data to the sipo is dilettante shit, and Orwell detested that in others.
>>1190809
The Brits voted in a Labour that was still very much socialist after the war, and it took Thatcher to erase the remnants.
Orwell didn't want socialism forced he wanted it accepted. He wasn't against violence though.
Also
>proletarian periphery
You mean decayed aristocrats and intellectuals who supported a foreign behemoth responsible for the deaths of millions of its *own* people.
Yeah, Orwell hated them and didn't give a shit about selling them out to the *freely elected and socialist government.* Moreover, he wasn't precisely informing he was giving advice. Half of it was information like "harmless but homosexual." His dossier included out of reach people like Henry Wallace (former VPOTUS). By most accounts he was entirely right in the information he handed over by the way.
>>1190186
t. didn't read 1984
>>1190864
>You mean decayed aristocrats and intellectuals who supported a foreign behemoth responsible for the deaths of millions of its *own* people.
No, I don't mean them. I mean the shop & union level organisation that drove the CPGB's working class membership, and the workers who supported the CPGB based on the industrial struggle of its shop activists.
Labour in power kept the wage, mate. There was nothing of Catalonia in the NHS.
>>1190963
Thoughts?
Really it's just a well written anti-soviet propaganda piece. The parallels are too obvious not to notice.
>>1187662
>In no way are we near the levels of 1984
We're much, much closer than you think.
>>1190864
>harmless but homosexual
So all of 4chan?
>>1187643
It was based in part on the politics of the Axis regimes and as such can be read as satire, but it was much more strongly informed by the predictions of a guy called James Burnham. Orwell wrote a lot of book reviews, and around the time he was doing preliminary work on 1984 he read and reviewed a book called The Managerial Revolution (or something like that) by Burnham. Burnham predicted, among other things you'll no doubt recognise, the emergence of three global super-states locked in perpetual war.
All of Orwell's works are available online for free, so if you want to read the relevant essays, they are:
James Burnham's Managerial Revolution
Further Thoughts on Burnham [or something like that]
You and the Atomic Bomb [this one is quite famous as it's where Orwell coined the expression "cold war"]
t. fanatical Orwell devotee
>>1190864
>By most accounts he was entirely right in the information he handed over by the way.
Such as it even was. He identified exactly one person as "Probably a Soviet agent" and you'll never guess what...
And you have to remember (not saying you don't, just getting it out there) that this was just recommendations for who shouldn't be given access to a certain department. It's not like it was some industry-wide or nation-wide blacklist.
You can ignore 1984, it's just a hamfisted expansion of his essay: "Politics and the English Language"
http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit/
>>1187778
Probably a closer fraction, like 3/5 and 2/5, and I think some nations are more one than the other, but basically yeah.
>>1191217
>you can ignore 1984, here's an essay which overlaps with a minor and coincidentally very well-known theme of 1984
>>1189610
If you remember the book you'll rember that the MC says that the proles are basically kept in line by alcohol, whores, and sports, and that they are blissfully unaware of how much the government controls them.
>>1190076
fuck is wrong with her knees
>>1187731
>>1187778
The modern world isn't those words though, or at least not intentionally, and not to the same level.
While the government spies on us it isn't out of a power trip it genuinely doesn't want maniacs blowing shit up (though i doubt they mind knowing what we're up to), and while the majority are consumed by a culture of cheap entertainment and hedonism, there's nothing to stop anyone becoming an intellectual or pursuing the life they really want, except money.
Western modern life is good, we're quite free, we're very comfortable, we have a nice balance, and people need to complain less.
>>1191251
>Western modern life is good, we're quite free, we're very comfortable, we have a nice balance
and if anyone speaks out against certain govenrment policies, they'll be arrested and shamed for thoughtcrime
>>1191251
>people need to complain less.
Mostly agree, but I'd prefer if people complained more about certain other things that waaah waaah limited surveillance of voluntary use of technology is just like 1984 wah waaah. Just complaining less would indeed be an improvement, though.
>>1191254
Can you show me some people who've been arrested for speaking out against certain government policies? Like, exclusively for that, not some fuckwit wandering around DC with a loaded shotgun because muh second amendment or whatever.
>>1191265
multiple people in Germany and England have been arrested for saying bad things about their governments and the EU taking in refugees
>>1191254
>and if anyone speaks out against certain govenrment policies, they'll be arrested and shamed for thoughtcrime
When? Never
Screaming niggers are fucking cook retards will, which i dont agree with, but i can see how
>>1191269
Dude No im English and that has never happened. Quit talking shit. If people were being arrested for talking out against the EU taking refugees then
1. Half the country would be in prison
2. Half our political parties would be in prison
3. We wouldnt be having a fucking EU referendum
4. Kill yourself
>>1191269
OK, link me to a few reports about these?
>>1191296
>The tweets have been deleted. Doyle has not been charged.
>>1191296
[_] arrested for criticising government policies
C'mon bro, I live here, I need to know what's going to get me arrested and shit. Help a brother out.
>>1191296
There was also the Polish truck driver who was charged for getting angry at refugees for slipping into his truck and causing $80,000 in damages.
>>1191306
>arrested and not charged isn't arrested
>>1187643
>Was it really a warning
No
>or satire?
more of a satire than a warning, orwell absolutley despised Stalin and Stalinists (he actually ratted them (and homosexuals who he claimed were stalinists out in britain, like a cunt...) its more like a massive "fuck you" to stailnism
>>1191331
>abusing minorities is speaking out against government policies
I called a chick fat on youtube earlier, am I a political renegade yet? Should I go on the lam?
>>1191343
both are...
>>1191354
>dude imma write the same book twice lol
No.
>>1191251
>Western modern life is good, we're quite free, we're very comfortable, we have a nice balance
Until it all crumbles under the violent upheavals that are inevitably going to occur when the entire global climate system collapses beneath our feet.
It'll be a fun ride until that point, though.
>>1191386
things which will never happen
>>1191296
>clearly clickbait article
>report says he was only called in for questioning, and that the guy was a fucking cunt
>hasn't been charged because being a cunt is still legal
Talk to me again when David Icke gets arrested for suggesting that Cameron is a space lizard. Because that's what Singapore regularly does to anyone who DARES to criticize them. As in, straight up charge, lock in jail and fucking drive the accused crazy and then dare to say the guy was in the wrong and is clearly crazy.
>>1190037
DAE TV IS FOR PLEBS LOL?
>>/reddit/
>>1190771
U wot no member of the inner party commits crime, they are all so brainwashed to even attempt to.
>>1191556
that's the proles isn't it? Inner Party members occasionally commit thought crimes but get away with it because they're allowed to turn their telescreen off
>>1187662
>in no way are we near the levels of 1984
We a closer than at any other time in history, including when he wrote the book.
Also, do you think someone in the end-game of authoritarian dystopia would say any different?
>>1191572
The proles don't even have telescreens in their homes, because they're too uneducated to present that kind of threat, IIRC.
It's somewhat ambiguous whether or not Inner Party members are too brainwashed to use their relative freedom for anything fun. The interpretation that they are (and thus that O'Brien is simply acting on special dispensation as part of his sting) is reasonable, though.
>>1191581
Well, you're saying different, so that's a little self-refuting, don't you think?
I wonder what Orwell would have to say bout his book becoming an ideological manifesto against the left
>>1191572
They may turn them off, but it's just to give confidence to future inner party members wich are outer party members that realise something fishy is going on.
Remember that thoughtcrime is applied when something you believe is "wrong". O'Brien didn't believe in anything he told to William
>>1189643
1984 is a satire of how the military-industrial complex degrades into extreme authoritarian states. It was a desperate warning. He never preaches an alternative, he barely had a coherent idea of one.
>>1191254
Maybe in Euroland
>>1191634
>william
Who's william?
>>1190910
t. didn't read BNW
>>1192990
Dumb SAGposter.
>>1192990
Nah, he's right. Winston constantly reflects on how the proles are more or less unmanaged and more liberated than Party members. Other guy seriously seems to have a Sparknotes-level grasp on the text.
>>1191634
Fucksake, read Darkness at Noon before you open your shitegob.
>>1193056
How about you read The Iron Heel before YOU open YOUR shitegob, gobshite.
Reminder that arguing about the merits of 1984/BNW is for retarded manchildren who can't comprehend adult political theory.
>>1193066
How about you read Sheila Fitzpatrick on the actual inner outer party relations?
>>1193091
>read some strayan russiaboo fanfic
>>1193113
I can see that you value historiography highly. Given that you've graduated from /his/, why not take further study at /pol/ and fucking stay there.
>>1193235
>historiography
>as relates to a work of fiction
>attempting to depict the future
>written using materials Orwell had no access to
m8 you've failed to grasp the basic nature of a high-school level novel. You don't get to tell people to go places.
>>1189479
Nope he got tuberculosis
>>1193295
…
Might want to read Orwell's review of Darkness at Noon.
>>1193631
I have read it. I've read the entire four-volume series of his essays, correspondence and miscellany (I'm aware there's a complete version but I've not gotten around to it yet). My case for 1984 as depiction of the future is made here: >>1191191.
Regardless of that issue, the idea that modern historiography surrounding a particular regime necessarily lends insight to the ostensible 'satire'/whatever of that regime, written contemporaneously with that regime, is bollocks. You are the man with a hammer who wants everything to be a nail.
>>1187653
This
>>1187662
The analogy is poor, but we are arguably in a similar situation as 1931-1932 right now.
>>1187720
>posting bait just to derail the thread
>>1191251
>Western modern life is good, we're quite free, we're very comfortable, we have a nice balance, and people need to complain less.
t. 1933 German
>>1191499
Already is.
>>1191251
>except money.
The ultimate "but" of capitalist society.
>>1187653
The creation of israel aka The truman show.
>>1193739
>we are arguably in a similar situation as 1931-1932
The Syrian Civil War has a number of parallels with the Spanish Civil War.
>>1193901
It does in that it's basically a dick-swinging contest for foreign powers, but that happens all the time.
Otherwise not so much.
>>1190037
They both got it between moral degeneration, the deconstruction of language, general apathy of the citizen body, total surveillance, perpetual isolation, and fear.
>>1191546
Are you telling me it's not?
>>1191249
She's asian
>>1190186
in the book Winston actually feels envy towards the proles, cause they aren't party members who have to put up with the 24/7 bullshit or literally die.
And they can have sex and generally be ignorant.
Ignorance is strength brother.
>>1193922
>the deconstruction of language
Nah, Orwell was backing a loser there, imo, unless you just mean the endless attempts to exert control over people by manipulating language. The actual effectiveness of doing so, not so much, really. But yeah, people tie themselves in knots trying to do it, for sure.
>>1193929
Not him, but while it definitely is, pointing that out is so banal an insight as to qualify as plebby in itself.
>>1191251
>we're quite free
You can't own guns in bongland.
lol
>>1191349
>twitter abuse is criminal!!
>>1193966
>find black person
>incessantly write letters to them reading NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER CUNT NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER BURN YOU BURN YOU MONKEY FILTH NIGGER COON SPOOK NIGHTFIGHTER SPEARCHUCKING JIGABOO KILL YOU KILL YOU SUFFER DIE
>get arrested
>this is fine
>do the same thing using electronic media
>woah there comrade i think you should read a little book called nineteen-eighty-four, maybe you've heard of it
>fucking thoughtcrime m8 i mean holy shit what's even the problem like DUH
You are a silly person. You have silly opinions.
>>1193986
I lold
another good one is redguard dropout
>>1191251
You need to complain less about people complaining, they're not particularly harmful
>>1193018
>Proles aren't raised in giant alcohol tanks
>Proles still have families
>Proles aren't segregated into classes amongst
>Proles can't say whatever they please
>Seriously, read BNW
>>1193001
No one knows what that is, you pathetic weeb.
>>1187720
>using a powerpoint as a source
>>1194663
Proles can say whatever they please
what they generally please isn't usually seditious, so there's little need to manage such.
>>1187720
But there is Internet there, just for high ranking officials and tourists, but they must use the official North Korean GNU/Linux distro, Red Star.
>>1194707
The scene with the old Prole man that shared a drink of vodka with Winston says otherwise.
That Prole was wary as shit to speak his mind, and not just because Winston was still wearing his Party Overalls. When the Prole was induced to answer questions which would be deemed seditious by the Party, he gave hazy ramblings that could be chalked up to an old man's manner.
Also this crab in my ice bucket is making horrible noises as it churns ice with its fat legs as it regains consciousness before passing out again. He is more like a Prole than a citizen in BNW
>>1193986
It scares me how someone can actually spout this rhetoric against anti-censorship.
>>1193868
Now I feel like a pleb for only reading 1984
I think we can all agree that the relentless expansion of government power since the 1930s has been an enormous detriment to Western society
>>1189911
You couldn't even crush the socialists cucklord
>>1194891
how so? the quality of life is steadily improving, and larger governments are partially to thank for it. we have all kinds of social welfare that now people from around the world flock to us to take advantage of it.
A satire can be a warning, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
>>1190037
We are done with the Brave New World, we are back to Orwellian now.
The conservatives will win.
Liberals have no chance.
>>1194995
Is conservative even an ideology? They are just a belieft that we should use the same old system we are using now, we should never change it. That is why Conservative in US are very different from Conservative in Europe.
>>1194663
I think you're getting a bit confused m8. Or at least, I am, since I don't know what "giant alcohol tanks" refers to. Proles do still have families and there's no segregation mentioned. Nor is there any mention of particular Prole-directed restrictions on speech, though one Prole woman who starts yelling in the cinema is arrested, I believe. Proles are specifically not expected to employ Newspeak.
It kind of seems like you're getting BNW and 1984 confused or, more likely, you're getting confused about who's been saying what about which.
>>1194860
You scare pretty easily, and seem fresh out of actual points to make. Weird.
>>1194987
But once we dispense with the trivial observation that any depiction of the future is necessarily an interrogation of the present on some level, we're left with the question of Orwell's intent. What was he trying to achieve, what was he trying to say?
The two main camps suggest that either he was trying to say:
>dude stalinism lmao stalinism's bad mmkay look how bad stalinism is everyone
or:
>dude totalitarianism seems kind of inevitable and here's how it might happen and what it might be like, totalitarianism's bad mmkay
I've been making the case that the balance of probability on a reading of the actual text, combined with other of his writings from around the time of the novel's conception, favours the latter interpretation. When O'Brien tells Winston to imagine the future, he also invites the reader to do so.
>>1195044
conservative is about not letting too much power flow to the mob, it's about checking it
>>1191251
>I swallow mainstream ideology on daily basis: the post
>>1196058
>>1195201
Give me your address and I'll suppress you just like you want a stronger force to
>>1196499
If only that scared me. Still got no, like, actual thesis to articulate, no?
>>1196058
No dude, just my life. The hardships i face are nothing like the hardships people in the past faced.
I actually recently finished Orwells Down and Out in Paris and London.
I can catagorically say life is better now than then. Not only were conditions were, but everyone was pretty much an asshole. It's something I've noticed when I've lived in poor countries too. Everyone is a cunt. In western countries today people are generally a lot nicer, kinder and definitely more polite. It wasn't like that just 80 years ago and it still isnt in much of the world. I guess all that coddling and childhood cartoons about friendship and being kind does actually pay off.
>>1193949
>The actual effectiveness of doing so, not so much,
But memes seem pretty effective desu
>>1197095
Define 'meme' and 'effective'. If you mean that repetition is a powerful tool of persuasion, then you're right, but I'm not sure how memes qua memes relate to linguistic determinism.
>>1193986
maybe you just didnt clarify, but the first one is targeted threatening, which is an actual offense if done electronically. the second one, if a tweet or a facebook post, is usually an untargeted, general statement, which can lead to questioning, but usually not an arrest.
>>1197470
The only cases I recall seeing linked ITT involved targeted abuse, though. It's not like I'm this gung-ho pro-censorship, anti-free-speech type, no matter what various simpletons need to believe. It's just that people seem unable to shake this notion that the internet is somehow 'unreal' or 'doesn't count' in some weird way.
FWIW I agree that eg that guy getting arrested for jocularly threatening to bomb that airport was ridiculous. I can see where it's close to the edge, but close to the edge is still clearly on the right side of it.
>>1196570
Your categories are normative trash.
>>1193702
Yeah, because a text on the same subject which is superior couldn't have inspired content in a text which came later.
1984 is an attack on party life in Britain and the Soviet Union in the 1930s and 1940s. The fact that it is a pastiche, particularly of proletarian relations, but also in the case of Soviet relations of the "outer Party" means that referring to the metatext, in this case Fitzpatrick's work, is pretty fucking apt.
But no, you >>>/lit/ cunts can't establish an appropriate context to save your cunts.
>>1197892
>Yeah, because a text on the same subject
Question-begging.
>1984 is an attack on party life in Britain and the Soviet Union in the 1930s and 1940s.
>Private property rights will be abolished, but common ownership will not be established. The new ‘managerial’ societies will not consist of a patchwork of small, independent states, but of great super-states grouped round the main industrial centres in Europe, Asia, and America. These super-states will fight among themselves for possession of the remaining uncaptured portions of the earth, but will probably be unable to conquer one another completely. Internally, each society will be hierarchical, with an aristocracy of talent at the top and a mass of semi-slaves at the bottom.
-Second Thoughts on James Burnham, George Orwell, May 1946
As much as you, generally speaking, don't get to tell people to go to places, specifically, you absolutely do not get to talk shit to me about 'context' when it comes to Orwell and 1984.
FWIW I agree the OP belongs in /lit/. But because I have more tools at my disposal than just the one hammer, I'm capable of engaging with the OP, and the thread in general, on the terms its contents render appropriate.
>>1197992
Your only argument for your context is vacuous rhetoric and pouring shit into the common well.
>>1198128
fuck off fifel
>>1198142
You're just giving him the attention he wants desu.
>>1198128
>actual quotes from orwell dated to the early stages of his work on 1984
>vacuous rhetoric
Yeah, we're done here.
>>1193868
desu tho. this was ALWAYS the case. the lower classes have always been literal plebs and will always continue to be mindless drones.
just instead of all that just replace it with a higher mortality rate and spending most of your time farming or some shit.
human society has never been collectively made up of intellectuals and shit. just because most of the population became literate doesn't mean they're suddenly capable of critical thinking.
>>1198170
>the author's intention
My my my what have we here?
>>1194879
I am you but in reverse, I've only read Brave New World
>>1198404
Read Koestler's Gladiators and Darkness at Noon. Western Europeans are shit at dystopia.
>>1198404
Read The Iron Heel. IIRC correctly the Rebel Inc edition has a pretty good introduction giving a lot of context. Pretty sharp prediction of WWI.
>tfw you can't be sure if pic related was the tng writers taking the piss or just being White Fang/Call Of The Wild only plebs
>>1187643
He basically summarized what it was to live in eastern europe before it happened
>>1198617
Except life in Eastern Europe was nothing like Orwell's fantasy.
>>1187671
>Yeah, sometimes I think the Bush administration chose deliberately Orwellian sounding names just to troll liberals and libertarians.
lolno. Those were some Texas good ole boys. They played that shit as straight as they could
>>1187643
It wasn't either, it was just an image of what a shitty society would look like.
It also sucks and is vastly overrated by neckbeards who can't into political theory.
>>1187662
that doesn't mean that we COULDN'T reach it and that the messages in book aren't relevant warnings we should remain vigilant for
>>1194879
http://www.readinglength.com/book.php?isbn=0060929871
it'll only take you an afternoon and you'll feel like a patrician
>>1198657
>it'll only take you an afternoon and you'll feel like a patrician
but you won't be because it's an entry level book.
>>1190772
>wanted to kek but then realize I live here
>>1195198
We are dismantling the wrongness that is the statement:
>You didn't read 1984 (nor Brave New World, likely), the proles of 1984 live a life very similar to those in BNW.
Also the fetal alcohol tanks are how BNW begin
t. time to read BNW
>>1198812
>the proles of 1984 live a life very similar to those in BNW.
Yeah, I never said nor attempted to defend that notion.
t. time to stop posting
He just saw a trend and took it to its logical/absurd conclusion (depending on who you ask). Its a great book by the way, even if it wasn't as prescient as we now know it is.
>>1195486
>Patriot Act
>Political Correctness and "Anti Hate Speach Laws"
Yup checks out.
>>1199467
>>>1199467
>lifestyles are identical, the same.
See
>>>>1194663
Having a family still makes you human.
>>1195313
I thought conservatisms core was "Don´t fix what´s not broken".
>>1193960
And you can't buy a kinder egg in America
lol
I kinda wish i did live in the world of 1984.
At least there you have purpose, not just me but everyone. Also our reality is a combination of 1984, Brave new world, Farinheight & extreme leftists wet dream. At least in 1984 I dont have to be around disgusting minoritys of every ilk.
>>1200155
Purpose and meaning are atrifical feelings the brain creates so we can better fuck and survive. Get off your authoritarian high horse and go create your own purpose.
lets hope your right and overwhelming projections are wrong eh?
But i like this horse. I like stabilty and being told what to do. Not everyone has withen them a wander lust.
On a similar note as im sure your going to call me dumb or whatever for my opinion, why do moderatly intelligent people think us proles/pleb/commoners ect cant accend to bigger and better things? whats there evidence for it, is it just assumption as they only see the lower classes in a negative light?... or, peversly, they too were low class and there selling there previous lives short to fit in with rich/smart friends?
>>1199685
Again, it's referring to the degree of freedom proles enjoy relative to Party members. There's literally nothing about that that's even difficult to understand, so I guess I'll just stop replying at this point.
>>1200155
>At least there you have purpose, not just me but everyone.
Even if said purpose is to be a cog in a vast machine that both neglects and oppresses you at the same time?
You want a happy life? Get back on the assembly line. You want a vacation? Get back on the assembly line. You wanted a house where you could pursue your hopes and dreams according to the dictates of your conscious? Too bad, get back on the assembly line. You don't need education, you don't need capital, just need to work hard until you drop dead from exhaustion. You probably won't even get your own grave, you'll be thrown in a mass grave like everyone else who devoted their lives to laboring for a "purpose"
>>1191251
I'm not implying with the 3/4 Brave New World that we necessary have it bad
>>1187690
To be fair, the basic idea of arresting people for saying things you don't like is ancient, though detecting subtle hints of dissatisfaction is more recent. That said, everybody carries constantly semi-on electronics around, so the telescreen is eerie.
>>1194731
So NK uses free software, nice to know
>>1187643
It was a warning of what giving the government control of everything will do.
>>1187643
Just read this book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_(Anthony_Burgess_novel)
>>1203701
The hungarian 1985 is better
I think that Orwell was a profet. 1984 is kinda like the most extremist example of a radical, commie, monopolic, controlled and repressive society. NK is the most close example to this. And if we want to see a society stopped in time, there is NK. Just photographied by Orwell years before it was created... Maybe Kim Jong Ill get inspjred by 1984... who knows
>>1193949
Maybe not in English but commies tried warping language in many places they got power, such as Simple-minded Chinese characters.
>>1187643
You have to understand Orwell to understand 1984. He had worked as a goon for the British Empire, then bummed it on the streets of said empire's capital. He came from wealth but understood the misery that poverty inevitably brings. I think the one conclusion he got from this was how the state didn't just allow poverty, but it controlled it. In 1984, Winston has traded all of his liberty for security. Orwell had at various times in his life, taken both options. He knew the consequences of both.
The totalitarian superstate in 1984 didn't care what the proles were doing, so long as they were proles. To escape the shackles that his (relatively) bourgeois lifestyle put on him, Winston had to mix with the proles, had to see the other side. 1984 isn't a libertarian bible (though of course that reading isn't totally inaccurate), but a socialist parable of how poverty and totalitarianism are inseparable, and bring intertwined misery.
>>1203806
Yeah, like I'm saying, they try. Orwell's direct inspirations/whatever for Newspeak was likely a mixture of influences including his own skewering of partisan political speech of the time, and in particular, Basic English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English#Literary_references
People definitely try, but I don't think it works in any way but the most vague and uninteresting.
>>1203883
This is such an American-flavoured reading. Not saying that's a bad thing.
>1984 isn't a libertarian bible (though of course that reading isn't totally inaccurate)
Well, I mean, no reading other than trivial "It's a cookbook" stuff is totally inaccurate.
Anyone read?
I'd like to hear some outside opinions of this book.
>>1191251
Overpopulation is going to destroy the planet and it's because of complacent faggots like you. The Chinese might be a bunch of miserable bastards to their own people and the rest of the world but they look to the future and get shit done. Meanwhile we're being comfortable and relatively free right up until the average person can barely afford food, water is tightly rationed and all government social support programs start collapsing under their burdens.
I'm not insane am I /his/? I think I worry too much about this stuff but nobody's shaken me off of it yet. Please help.
>satire
Of what?
>>1204745
Dude, who the fuck in the modern west is having bunches of kids? It's the poor shitholes of the world where people have tons of children.
>>1204745
the chinese are just as flawed, decadent and pathetic as we are
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9mUVpCSGl4
Orwell did hang out with the elites for awhile so he knew what would go down. Not much of a psychic but he can predict some of the stuff.
>>1199507
>Also cameras everywhere,
>NSA able to access info that can theoretically track your movements
>Laws curtailing all sorts of rights simply based on whether you've been arrested or not
>increase of prosecution of victimless crimes
>those crimes used as excuse to strip away rights.
>>1200792
>DAE think water is wet
>>1193018
>wow
>both of the low classes are low
>wow
>did u use sparknotes 4 that
>>1187653
Also thought crimes are now apparently a thing
>>1187720
not true
nork posted on /int/ once with a timestamp and several pictures including one of his web browser
>>1193960
Actually you can. You are just restricted on what you can get. Shotguns and bolt action rifles are fine. Handguns and semi auto rifles are not.
>>1209043
>getting offended when simplistic views are revealed to be obvious
>>1195198
>what are giant alcohol tanks
t. didn't read BNW
>>1187643
It wasn't about totalitarianism or governments.
It was about the individual's sacrifices that must be made to endure existing in totalitarian environments. A series of constant victories one after another, suppressing yourself so your logic and rationality don't overcome the lifesaving value of obedience.
>If you want a glimpse of the future, Winston, imagine miranda's sky sized butt grinding into an ant sized man, for-ever.
>>1190085
Is that your grand thesis?
Low classes are low?
>>1194707
Except that isn't true at all.
t. didn't read 1984
>>1200104
like that matters. That shit is such a meme you might as well kys
>>1204745
>Chinese
>getting shit done
>>1193846
and your proposed alternative is?
>>1189911
every time holy shit every time i read something like this I cannot contain myself I just laugh uncontrollably
>>1194995
>falling for thew left right meme
>>1211406
Don't worry - the spurious superiority of a contrived agnosticism is by no means without its charms.
>>1211394
savg
>>1187653
Newspeak isn't some insightful prediction that Orwell made about the way people would talk in the future. It was an explicit reference to linguistic trends in his own time. The fact that sometimes people use euphemisms does not prove Orwell "entirely right".
>>1211381
>Flustered when confronted about C- level analysis
>Eraaa everyone's against me
You played yourself like Winston son.
>>1194707
Still horseshit? Yeah still horseshit.
>>1190085
So this is the original post where the buttlblasted fedora says low classes are low?
>>1199467
Not even close to similar.
t. Time to read BNW
>>1190037
Ive never read either book but huxuly's ideas are far more intelligent. I would be interested to know when he wrote his book.
>>1212634
>everyone's against me
But this is the exact opposite of correctly identifying painfully obvious samefagging.
>Not even close to similar.
Inability to grasp relative comparisons is a classic symptom of autism. I suppose if you're neurologically defective in that way, it can't be held against you.
>>1187643
It was a warning. Too bad "Brave New World" also got mixed in and became somewhat prevalent.
