Spanish Civil War 1936-1939
Lets talk about the Spanish Civil War.
Why was this war so bloody? Why did other nationalities want to join in?
Why were all these foreign fighters and various incompatible ideologies working together? Why did they care about Spain?
How do we frame this war? What was everyone fighting about? Was it really communism verses fascism, or was it just republicans verses nationalists?
Spain was aided by fascists, but they didn't help Hitler out in WWII. Why not? They could of used the opportunity to take back Gibraltar from the British.
>>1182373
>Spain was aided by fascists, but they didn't help Hitler out in WWII. Why not? They could of used the opportunity to take back Gibraltar from the British.
They were not in position to give but a token help (Division Azul), the country was in ruins.
If they got into the war the coast couldn't be defended, Gibraltar wouldn't have been taken but the allies (with help from republicans) would have easily established a beach head in western Andalucia and advance towards Madrid. It would have been like Italy, but even easier for the allies.
>>1182373
>Why was this war so bloody? Why did other nationalities want to join in?
Spanish Royalty had suppressed liberal reforms during the 19th century. This was their come-uppance. Their conservative class was too rigid to response to 19th century political ideas. Heavy political repression of liberal ideologies left 'violent revolution' as the only option for reforms.
Napoleon forced political instability into the government, creating a weak spain. Spain is in a strategic position along the straights of Gibralter. As the world became more globalized foreigners had a vested interest in puppeting Spain. Foreign powers had continued to promote weak political authority in Spain so they could bite away at her colonial possessions. The monarchists and liberals had been fighting back and forth for the good part of the 19th century.
It was a rural verses urban conflict too.
Monarchy had little support in the cosmopolitan city populations.
Long term repressions of liberal reforms with no appeasement gave rise to radical ideologies like communist. Fascism was reactionary. Spain had no room for a centrists political authority. Spain was confiscating lands from the aristocracy in 1933, something which pissed off traditionalists and monarchists.
>>1182373
>How do we frame this war? What was everyone fighting about? Was it really communism verses fascism, or was it just republicans verses nationalists?
After the Napoleonic invasion Spain was divided between liberals and conservatives. The whole XIX century is full of coup d'etats and civil wars between them (i.e. Carlists wars).
The civil war was, in essence, just another iteration of this. The foreign support isn't even something new (Hundred Thousand Sons of Saint Louis)
Also, most people didn't even fight for what they believed. They fought for whoever had the power in their zone, only a few were lucky enough to be able to choose their side with full knowledge of the ideology they were supporting
>>1182494
>The monarchists and liberals
You mean absolutists and liberals, because most of the liberals were monarchists.
>>1182474
>They were not in position to give but a token help (Division Azul), the country was in ruins.
Why were they so slow to recover? Surely that didn't prevent them from sending plenty of infantry brigades. Spain had nothing to gain from the status quo.
>Spain was in ruins.
Yet, Germany didn't stay in ruins despite painful occupation and treaties.
Germany recovered quite quickly from the depression and WWI when Hitler got in.
When Germany was occupied in the Cold War, it was up and running again by 1955ish.
What did Spain not have that Germany did?
>>1182535
Spain was already too poor to enter the World War I without the civil war. Spain was not Germany, contrary to the germans for the spaniards everything went from wrong to worst for the whole 19th century.
>>1182474
>If they got into the war the coast couldn't be defended, Gibraltar wouldn't have been taken but the allies (with help from republicans) would have easily established a beach head in western Andalucia and advance towards Madrid. It would have been like Italy, but even easier for the allies.
But they could of counted on Nazi U-boats for help, this would of screwed the allies big time for Mediterranean liberations.
>>1182535
>Yet, Germany didn't stay in ruins despite painful occupation and treaties.
Germany recovered quite quickly from the depression and WWI when Hitler got in.
When Germany was occupied in the Cold War, it was up and running again by 1955ish.
What did Spain not have that Germany did?
Do you actually need to ask this?
Like seriously?
>>1182494
>Long term repressions of liberal reforms with no appeasement gave rise to radical ideologies like communist
Oddly enough before the war communism had little support. Anarchist were the main revolutionary group, with their ideology being introduced first. Communists grew strong during the civil war, thanks to soviet support.
>Fascism was reactionary
Spanish fascism wasn't specially reactionary before the death of Jose Antonio, although some of it's faction were certainly really violent (Falange de Sangre)
>Spain was confiscating lands from the aristocracy in 1933, something which pissed off traditionalists and monarchists.
The republic tried to solve all the traditional problems of Spain, failing hard and pissing all their enemies in the process. The religious reform failed, the army reform was a fucking wreck and the land reform managed to lose support even from socialists and anarchists (Casas Viejas)
It was bloody because fighters had no respect for the other side.
Italy joined because it wanted to look important. Germany joined because they wanted to try out their rebuilt army and to get themselves an ally on the other side of France. The USSR joined because communists expected their help and to make sure that no communist country appeared that was autonomous from the Kremlin. France didn't join because the UK bitched about it.
Incompatible ideologies didn't really work together. They gathered because of the common enemy. Foreign volunteers joined the republican side out of solidarity, and because a victory there would make things move in their country.
One side had republicans, communists, socialists and anarchists, the other had fascists, conservatives, capitalists and loyalists. Simplifying more than that is too much. They were fighting for the chance to install their preferred system.
Spain didn't help Germany because Franco thought the risks were greater than the rewards, and that it was better to make sure to remain in power than to gamble it all for a rock. Also he was an authoritarian conservative but not a fascist, and felt not much sympathy for Hitler's projects.
>>1182572
Yes, I find the contrast interesting. Obviously the question reflects my curiosity and desire for different informed opinions. Are you going to contribute?
>/his/ is not /pol/, and Global Rule #3 is in effect. Do not try to treat this board as /pol/ with dates. Blatant racism and trolling will not be tolerated, and a high level of discourse is expected. History can be examined from many different conflicting viewpoints; please treat other posters with respect and address the content of their post instead of attacking their character.
>>1182601
>France didn't join because the UK bitched about it.
No, UK didnt bitch out, liberals and conservatives have no problems with fascism when it becomes the last resort against communism
>>1182518
You are right, I got a bit confused.
>>1182535
Spain had shit economy before the war and just as it ended, WWII started. There was not time to build or rebuild. Germany got from 1918 to 1939 to prepare, Spain only had six months or so.
>>1182558
The U-boats were already stretched thin, having to cover even more territory would not have help them. And Spain didn't have a great navy, having lost an important part during the war (The navy sided with the republic)
>>1182558
U-boats couldn't do dick about the north atlantic, adding the coast of Spain to potential spots for an allied landing? The only thing Spain could bring to the table is a chance at taking gibralter, which they wanted much of Vichy north Africa in exchange for. Adding a huge coastline that won't be able to be adequately defended, a country with wrecked economy and industry, a weak military, and a huge pool of potential resistance fighters, all in exchange for pissing off your puppet state. They wouldn't be able to hold gibralter even if they took it.
>>1182643
>tl;Dr : Spain was in ruins and had 0 business going to war on a 10x larger scale to assist the Axis.
Done. Next question.
Side note my half brothers great gramps fought in the war supposedly. Never met him. Would have loved to ask about it.
>>1182621
Well that's true, but at the time France had a socialist government and they understood that having Spain on Germany's side was not a good thing.
But the anglos threatened to break their alliance if France intervened.
>>1182494
>Fascism was reactionary. Spain had no room for a centrists political authority.
Fascism is not reactionary, it's an authoritarian nationalist ideology that seeks people of different classes and of the same Nation unite for the well being of it.
>>1182373
>How do we frame this war?
A war of defending the Catholic faith from the godless heathens who wish to bully and kill the priests who wanted nothing to do with any of it.
>>1182670
>>1182621
>>1182601
>British didn't want to get involved and wouldn't join France in an intervention.
Well, Winston Churchill wasn't in Prime Minister yet.
Chamberlain was still trying to avoid getting involved, he wanted to avoid the civil war in Spain from escalating into an international Crisis.
Many still had a positive impression of Hitler from the 1936 Olympics when he got involved.
BUT
Why didn't this stop the British Empire from sending various foreign fighters if they wanted to stay out?
>Canadians joined the Mackenzie–Papineau Battalion
Apparently the UK sent some foreign fighters too.
So was it an official "non-intervention", while covertly sending fighters into a proxy war?
>>1182745
>Canadian participation.
A great many of the forces from Mackenzie–Papineau Battalion were from Finland and the Ukraine; communist territories. They were alienated from Canada because of the great depression. If they succeeded in winning the Spanish civil war, its possible they would of returned to Canada as a fifth column for communism.
Canada was concerned of this and banned Canadians from joining the Civil War in 1937, and if they tried to do so, they would be spied on by the RCMP.
1937 Foreign Enlistment Act, outlawing participation by Canadians in foreign wars, 1937 Customs Act, which provided for government control over arms exports
>>1182745
> So was it an official "non-intervention", while covertly sending fighters into a proxy war?
nah they were edgelords and idealists like George Orwell
>>1182775
>>1182731
Well, Catholicism was part of the political system, they're there for stability, but they're not responsive to change. They rule with wisdom, but they're slow to learn. Its natural they would be a target by the republicans as they would of supported the nationalists, monarchists and fascists. (Weren't fascists atheist though? Hitler was a neo-Pagan wasn't he?)
>Why was this war so bloody?
With the influx of foreign fighters, they weren't fighting for land, they were fighting for ideology, they didn't care about the collateral damage because it wasn't their home territory.
There was also plenty of rage about the great depression driving people towards the left and even communism. Some blamed traditional institutions like the church. Conservatives and aristocrats would be been blamed for their destitute poverty. This was a chance to get revenge against the upper class for the great depression.
Was Spain hit hard by the great depression (i'm guessing they were doing pretty bad even before the depression), or were the foreigners only acting out their rage against the wealthy?
>you will never kill commies while shouting "Viva Cristo Rey" under the hot Spanish sun
just fuck my life up pham
>>1182373
Does anyone have the pasta that went something like
>hemingway
>fucks qt3.14's and hangs out at resorts
>war is hell
>orwell
>gets lost in the woods, all friends die, cause loses, not taken seriously by own side
>10/10 would fight again
>>1182612
Spain never really industrialized apart from two or three very specific regions that were mostly on the defeated side of the war.
>>1182654
>fought in the war supposedly
What side and for what sub-group of the side?
>>1182558
yeah just like how the Uboats sank everything the Allies sent to Tunisia then all the boats for Husky and Overlord.
>>1182892
>Weren't fascists atheist though? Hitler was a neo-Pagan wasn't he?
Everything works a little different in Spain regarding the catholic church. When the spaniards rebelled against Napoleon, even the liberals included the catholic faith as the sole official religion in the constitution.
Fascists (falange) were not like the carlists who were only one step away from being catholic ISIS, but you can't be a spanish traditionalist without a certain sympathy for the catholic church.
>>1182892
>Well, Catholicism was part of the political system, they're there for stability, but they're not responsive to change.
And more important: a convent or a monastery cannot really defend itself. The other symbols of "the system" like the Guardia Civil were not easy prey like a priest.
>>1183022
No but I'm interested too.
Daily reminder that Franco hijacked the FE-JONS and transformed it into a reactionary capitalistic party.
It's also Ramiro Ledesma's 111th birthday today.
>>1183300
Daily reminder that Franco literally used moors. I mean, what the actual fuck?
>>1183340
He let them rape and murder in the only part of Spain that was unconquered by the fucking moors.
>>1183340
>>1183355
Do you really think Franco gave a fuck about the Spanish People?
>>1182892
>Hitler was a neo-Pagan wasn't he?
Literally no, he wasn't.
>>1183340
What's wrong with allowing other ethnic groups and religious confessions into the military and the civil society with equal opprtunities, Juanito?
Why are you so racist and anti-multiculturalism? You should go to Sweden and learn into civilization, you shitskin ape.
>>1182373
>Why not?
Because they just got out of a massive civil war thus by entering WW2 they would be more of a liability to the axis than anything. Thank god Italy did not have this foresight.
Also RIP in peace Catalonia, I cri everytime.
>>1183751
>What's wrong with allowing other ethnic groups and religious confessions into the military and the civil society with equal opprtunities, Juanito?
They were literally second class tools used to eat bullets and terrorize the population. Dogs of war. Equal oportunities my ass.
>>1183247
>>1182373
>Why was this war so bloody? Why did other nationalities want to join in?
>Why were all these foreign fighters and various incompatible ideologies working
together? Why did they care about Spain?
>How do we frame this war? What was everyone fighting about? Was it really communism verses fascism, or was it just republicans verses nationalists?
A war that involves Spaniards is always bloody. As for foreign fighters, that's because the political climate and shilling of the times was particularly strong. Leftist faggots would come to Spain to fight commies because Mussolini evil and Hitler evil and has just cucked Austria into the Reich and etc. Right wing fags would come to Spain because goddamn commies and protect Jesus and the Church.
Basically, morons all of them, totally unrelated to the reality of Spain's politics and the causes of the Civil War. They might as well have gone to Madagascar to fight for their ideals without having a fucking clue of what the fuck is going on in Madagascar.
>Spain was aided by fascists, but they didn't help Hitler out in WWII. Why not? They could of used the opportunity to take back Gibraltar from the British.
Because 99% of the times, countries enter war for reasons of their own different to 'I owe it to you, m8'. Look at USA's splendid example: it took the lads Georgie Washingbong, Jay and Hamilton five minutes to become m8s with the Queen and show the middle finger to France after le Independence war. Not that France supported the rebels out of simpathy for Georgie Washingbong & lads desu, either.
Germany supported Franco for political and strategic reasons but also to test in a real war their latest military equipment and tactics. Specially, aviation bombing. Italy's support was far more relevant anyway.
Also, Spain didn't enter the war and Gibraltar because
a)Franco bets on 100% winning bets only
b)It had colonial cucking issues with Vichy and Italy regarding Northern Africa
and c) Franco realized Germany didn't give a shit about the Mediterranean theatre and was totally focused on lebensrauming east for the future of qt blonde german country grills. Because superior german logic says that if you lebensraum Belaruse and Hoholia, then you win and le 1000 years Reich happens.
Foreign volunteer brigades were filled with idealistic intellectuals with little to no formal training. One account has a survivor of a battle describing the books he found in the items of the dead.
The International Brigades are fascinating. On one hand, some of them were earnest men who wanted to combat fascism. However, others were dedicated Communists with Soviet sympathies that wanted to participate in international expansion.
>>1184092
The Russian Civil War was very similar. there was both allied and axis volunteers on the white side, with it being divided even further into Siberian Whites and Southern Whites+ Cossacks. It was even worse when the German Empire was still marching further into Russia even with the Civil War happening.
>>1182892
Look up clerical fascism, like the Iron Guard or the Falange
>>1182373
>Foreign volunteer brigades were filled with idealistic intellectuals with little to no formal training. One account has a survivor of a battle describing the books he found in the items of the dead.
>>1184092
I think some were not intellectuals but the front line were the useful idiots of these ideologies
Were there any real objectives to this war? Seems like Spain ended up with some crap despot, Im guessing they had higher hopes than that.
Why did they turn to violence and not reconcile or compremise before violence broke out? Where were the centrists and moderates?
>>1182373
God bless Franco
What should I read to learn about the anarchist or socialist movements during this time? Homage to Catalonia?
