Okay /his/ can we please settle this "there was no way they germans could have won against the SU" meme? I agree in OTL it is very unlikely that the Nazis win but there are several counterfactual ideas not completly in alien space bats territory in which germany most likely would have won. Muh industry and muh manpower are decisive factors but to outright dismiss any real danger of the soviets losing is unhistorical.
If usa didnt help at all and if Hitler didnt help at all.
Very possible then
>>1128439
Especially if Japan decides to attack the UDSSR too.
>>1128442
If the US doesn't support the US, Japanese attack on it is literally worthless. They'd take over 10000000 square kilometers of nothing and Vladovistok.
Oh wait, they wouldn't because the border was guarded by enough soldiers to BTFO the Japanese "the absolutely best army for fighting WW1 that fought during WW2" completely and take over Manchuria and Korea.
>>1128454
The point is the increased demand of supply and (experienced) manpower in the East. If we are talking about a completly neutral america and Japan not stupid enough to antagonize them,then the IJA would have enough power left to be a serious strain on soviet power. They would have probably lost because their army was trash but every bullet not used against the germans in this scenario is a serious danger for the SU
>>1128463
>The point is the increased demand of supply and (experienced) manpower in the East.
For the entire WW2 Soviet forces in the East were growing continuously.
It may have took them month rather than two days but it would still end up the same Kwantung Army was very badly equipped, trained and lost its power ever since the border incidents(during which they've got trashed as well).
>>1128463
In the second half of 1941 alone the Soviet army size in the east doubled. As in during the most critical time of the war, during the height of Barbarossa, during the Germans' drive towards to the edge of Moscow, the Red Army manpower in the east was growing. From 700,000 men in June to 1,350,000 men in December. Another six months later, it would be one and a half million men. And like >>1128454 says, it's literally just Vladivostok and the railroad they need to keep.
>>1128436
They simply didn't have enough oil to resist the Soviets. Maybe if they discovered thorium and built a ton of coal liquefaction plants they could have supplied themselves.
>>1128521
To just increase the army size is different in Terms of supply. I don't disagree with you that the IJA would probably lose or wouldn't be able to make any significant gains. BUT with the germans landing hard blows and no american help whatsoever the soviet industry is way more busy producing trains and trucks and in this case it is questionable if the soviets could afford to increase the army size let alone supplying a second front. Again i am not trying to advocate that the shitty japanese army would have any shoot against even second rate soviet troops and with the US involved they also wouldn't make a difference BUT without lend and lease the strain on soviet industry would make a huge difference.
>>1128542
56% of high octane fuel the SU used was supplied by the US. Not like only germany had supply/ressource problems. I agree though that the lack of oil is a nearly back breaking Problem.
>>1128588
>56% of high octane fuel the SU used was supplied by the US.
i kind of wish people would put these lendlease numbers in context
yes that is a lot
but if they had not gotten it, they would juse use worse grade fuel
not disputing the importance of l+l
just sort of tired with the numbers being brought up without context
this one is not even that bad
but i especially hate the bit about locomotives that gets thrown around
hurr durr dey only built a handful of locos and the americans gave them two thousandddd! (lets forget the fact that they had like twenty times that number already)
If the Germans captured Moscow in 41 there is a strong chance they would have killed Stalin in the process as he felt he should go down with the ship as he did not evacuate Moscow with many others at the time. After he was out of the picture the Soviet army might have just fell apart.
>>1128606
Meh, first off I think Stalin would have simply evacuated, and also the Soviets get portrayed like a one man STalin show but they actually had a much stronger party bureaucracy and an existing inner circle that might have simply carried on.
>>1128607
Nah. When Molotov and crew were fleeing the city, Stalin changed his mind and said he would stay put and did not board the train with most of the higher ups who were leaving when the Germans were kilometers away from the city.
>>1128632
Yes but capturing Moscow would have been a several months kind of deal. It's not like he HAD to board the train RIGHT NOW.
>>1128598
I am not even trying to disagree with you. Most l and l arguments are wehrabo trash tier. The other side tends to downplay the effects of l and l.
I am sorry i shouldn't have used the lel trains argument, what i meant was :
They would have needed to produce all the stuff GB and US delievered on their own. In a situation with a second front my personal opinion is that the soviet industry wouldn't have been able to give both fronts the attention they need. Also the starvation the SU would have suffered without US help.
In general : Lend and lease often delievered strategic good. Without them production would have dropped more than just the simple amount of goods delievered.
>>1128606
Nah mate. Moscow and dead stalin wouldn't have been enough to win the war.
I don't know.
After the Officer purge, it was safe to say many Soviets were just a back stab away from turning on Stalin.
I mean after he died they instantly purged Stalin.
Most of them only obeyed because they feared getting shot in the back of the head.
>>1128654
With a even more desperate situation in 41 and 42 because of a second front it is entirely possible for a coup/massive civil unrest hampering the soviet war effort.
>>1128521
This
A popular expression was no retreat Moscow is behind us. Imagine if the Germans captured Moscow before winter in 1941. Instead of diverting south to Kiev panic would set in when the Red army discovered that Moscow was done for and their high command was destroyed. Then they would just have to dive south and offer terms of surrender to every Red army unit they came in contact with.
