So /his/ redpill me on the native persian faith. Would persia be better today if it was Zoroastrian rather than Muslim?
>>1127560
>Would persia be better today if it was Zoroastrian rather than Muslim?
Yes. Why? Because then it wouldn't be Muslim
>>1127560
Better? I don't know. I hate Islam as much as the next guy, but the Shah was very much pro-Western and the photos from that time show a tendency towards Western-style degeneracy. So what is better?
>>1127574
Western styles are not degenerate, they are the highest culture. Islam is degenerate, as is most conservatism.
>>1127574
>degeneracy
>labels image "qts"
You're not fooling anyone.
>>1127601
Lol! The spirit is wiling, but the flesh...
>>1127560
Yes. Islam was the reason for Iran's climb to irrelevancy and without it, you wouldn't have a shitty oppressive government. Fuck the west for supporting Islamists.
>>1127628
>Fuck the west for supporting Islamists.
The opposite is true in the case of Iran.
>>1127628
But what about the glorious Safavids?
>>1127560
Humanity in general would be better off without Islam but in Persia’s case, it was especially disastrous, as they already had an advanced and long established culture that was destroyed.
>>1127628
>Fuck the west for supporting Islamists.
>>1127680
>Which is precisely why the USA fucked them over and sent them back to the Bronze Age.
What alt-history are you guys posting from?
The West / American's failure was not insuring the Shah remained in power and could resist both the religionists and communists so that by now, Iran would be a 1st world representative democracy with constitutional monarchy.
But post-Vietnam America had been neutered and infected with commie sympathizers so instead, we left him and the Iranian people swinging in the wind...
>>1127762
Wasn't one of the Shahs a Nazi sympathizer?
>>1127762
>Iran would be a 1st world representative democracy with constitutional monarchy.
Not really any better. Plus, Khammeni was an American plant, because a stable Iran wouldn't benefit the USA.
I think the major trouble is that a lot of people confuse the regimes with the leaders.
The Shah, for all intents and purposes was a very corrupt tyrant, but allowed for degrees of liberty which many Iranians enjoyed - as long as they kept on the good side of the regimes.
Khomeini was very brutal, but saw the Shah as another western puppet who could be disposed as easily as Mohammad Mosaddegh was, so he tried to make it so the country would have it's own proper sovereignty. But in doing so he'd basically turned Iran into a very strict and oppressive Islamic Republic.
>>1127562
underrated post
>>1127574
If there's anything degenerate about this picture, it's those eyebrows.
>>1127779
> oppressive bat-shit crazy Muslim theocracy
> 1st world representative democracy with constitutional monarchy.
> Not really any better.
>>1127968
>democracy
>ever good
Stop chugging the cool-aid, American.
>It's another post cherrypicked photos of the urban elite thread
>>1127666
Every single woman has a smug look on their title face. Literally why
>>1128050
>System which eliminates all long term planning, and any hard choices, as only things popular with the majority of idiots can happen.
FTFY
And maybe we should go back to violent usurpation, as then we know it's more warranted than just, "The media tells us to not like the party figurehead anymore."
>>1128041
It's called bedroom eyes.
>>1127635
Not really. If you can read Farsi sources or talk to people who were at the forefront during the revolutionary period, it becomes pretty obvious Khomeini had a lot of "help" from Western sources.
>>1127968
Two years ago I talked to an Iranian Jazz enthusiast who was visiting various music clubs in Europe.
He said alcoholism and drug abuse is a massive problem over there, and how the repressive government effectively prevents anyone from seeking help with their issues. Everything happens underground, the booze is dangerous to consume, etc.
Honestly edgelords who think that opressive governments who try to stamp out "degeneracy" (word filter when) are a good thing need to grow the fuck up.
>>1128385
>Honestly edgelords who think that opressive governments who try to stamp out "degeneracy" (word filter when) are a good thing
They are, but it needs to be done the right way. Zero tolerance isn't it.
>>1127574
The westernised culture in Shah Iran was really only prevalent in the upper class. Lower classes still engaged in Shia Islam culture and resented the prescence of the Western foreigners, who took a discriminatory attitude to most Iranians.
>>1128111
Indeed true that during the Iran-Iraq war, the superpowers and western states were funding both sides, however I think the USA, Britain and the USSR predominately funded Iraq, which meant the sale of conventional and chemical weapons, which were deployed against the Iranians. Strangely enough, one of the countries that assisted the Islamic Republic, was Israel.
No, Islam didn't ruin Iran, it revitalized Persia after it was stagnating under the terrible Sassanids.
The problem is they became a theocracy through Western interference in their politics.
>>1127771
Like most of the colonized/semi-colonized world, he engaged in diplomacy with Hitler and paid some lip-service to the reigime as a counter weight against (in his case) Soviet and British influence. There is no reason to think that the Shah or his govenrment were genocidal or more racist than your average person of the time was.
>>1127560
I heard that they really like incest.
"Would Persia be better today is it were Zoroastrian?"
Hm, fun question. If, right now, the world was the same other than Iran being different by being Zoroastrian. Tough question.
I can speculate geopolitically. Let's assume that this hypothetical Iran was a constitutional monarchy like UK or Japan with an emperor. There would be a central religious figure (Moabadan-Mobad).
Watching happenings in Iran would be far more fun and exotic for modern Americans and Euros because of them having a religion exclusive to their nation rather than Islam which all Americans by now don't really view as 'interesting' like buddhism or hinduism or sikhism or daoism or whatever. The faravahar, after all, is a little bit more comprehensible as a logo than the calligraphic representation of muhammads name. Tourism would probably be high if it were internally stable.
I think them being seperate from surrounding muslims would lead to them being popularly viewed as a haven of non-extremism (assuming not many zoroastrians had comitted terrorism in the west). If alt-historians are right, the country would still likely be plunged in instablility because them having oil is true regardless of them worshipping Allah or Ahura Mazda.
(Just to talk a bit about Zoroastrianism, rather than the Shah and the revolution)
>>1128041
They all cucked their husbands and they didn't noticed.
Zarathustri actually invented Judaism, and gave them a comic book origin story to keep them busy. One of the few early religions to eschew animal/human sacrifice.
>>1128074
>And maybe we should go back to violent usurpation,
t. African
>>1128496
Hilarious. The point would be that it'd be far more rare, and far more drastic. You're not going to do it unless you really need to. Instead, shit just might get fixed.
On the flipside, those in power would probably not fuck up too badly if they'd end up guillotined for it.
Much better than "fuck everyone over for four years, syphon as much out of the nation as you can, then bugger off when your term is up."
>>1127560
Zoroastrian vs. Islam is like chocolate vs shit
Zoroastrianism is the founding religion to the Abrahamic faiths, passing down most of the good spirituality and morals we have today.
I won't speak for Islam, as it speaks for itself and is relatively new on the religious market. The rule of not making images of Muhammed is a modern distortion of do not worship graven images. They need to get a grip.
Zoroastrians believe in three main principles:
Think good.
Speak good.
Do good.
Zoroastrianism, at its core, is the only none meme religion in my opinion. It's about self improvement and then helping other to self improve.
I really wish it was the dominant religion of modern times. But alas, it wasn't designed to control people, so it has no use.
>>1128444
I think Zoroastrianism is more aligned with Christianity in morals than it is with Islam.
Therefore, anywhere that would be Zoroastrian would be allies of the Western (Christian) world.
Better than hearing death to america from a fifth the world.
>>1128050
More like
>System in which polititians start to offer free shit to the eloctorate to win an election,and pursue populist policies,which in the long run end up hurting the economy.
Just take a look at what glorious democracy has done to Zimbabwue,Spain or Iran. Or what it did to Chile under Allende. Democracy always ends up with a huge burocratic class and uneducated people drinling the kool aid of the average polititian.
>>1127562
this
The zoroastrians escaped to india and continued their tradition in peace. Muslims however, are still a menace in india.
>>1127560
Zoroastrianism is a religion that stands for positivity and self actualization and self improvement, not self hate, being unworthy and self flagellation like Abrahamic religions, be it Judaism, Christianity or Islam
>>1128765
You do know Zoroastrianism was allowed to flourish by the Biblical God, right?
>"Abrahamic"
A shitty concept invented by Muslims in an attempt to garner sympathy from Christians.
The Allah of the Quran is not the God of the Bible.
>>1128765
Yeah, but isn't Zoroastrians' fault the fact that we distinguish between good and evil and have a guilt culture based on the original sin?
>>1128774
You know your full of shit and fooling no one, right?
>>1128795
that was abrahamic autism, zoroastrianism encourages you to have sex and get drunk once in a while because life's too short to be all mopey about ahriman
>>1127560
What books should I read to learn more about this faith? All I know are the memes.
>>1129102
Source?
>>1129182
The Gathas
>>1129102
Yeah, but it wasn't always as it is today.
>>1129191
Any particular translation I should look out for?
Islam already absorbed a ton of Zoroastrian things. Zoroastrianism wasn't the great belief you imagine either.
>>1128050
>threat of violent usurping of power when opposition to the ruling government gets too high
It's one of our constitutional duties.
>>1129258
i'm sure some good english ones exist but idk which are good - Avesta is probably not what you are interested in. also, really depends what you are interested in.
>>1127560
All I know is that (certain) Christians HATE it.
It totall undermines their narrative that all """"pagans"""" were ignorant and evil idol worshipers and Judaism and Christianity are completely unique and revealed by God. They cannot stand the fact that there were virtuous non-abrahamites that had very similar views as them with regards to the afterlife, God, Angels, demons, the end times. No, that in fact predates and has influenced the abrahamites. It's too much cognitive dissonance for them. They can't stand it. And since they can't simply suppress it like in medieval times, they either ignore them or try to falsify history, Christian style.
Iran needed Islam, just not it's Shi'i variant.
The Persian faith is definately the best of paganism.
Because it's the closest to Christianity and the Bible.
>>1129595
Say it after me: Zoroastrianism predates and has influenced both Judaism and Christianity, not the other way around. Christianity is not a unique, special revelation by God. Christianity is good because it is closest to Zoroastrianism, as a copy is related to an original.
>>1129550
What about virtuous pagans?
>>1129550
Well tipped, my euphoric friend. None of what you just said is true. There's a difference between not giving a shit about an extinct religion and actively suppressing its history.
>>1129641
You're quite incorrect.
>>1129595
I wouldn't call it pagan in the traditional sense (polytheistic, idol worshipping, nature gods, etc). It's certainly an exception among the non abrahamics though.
>>1129796
Saying something is incorrect isn't actually refuting it. Either provide an argument for your position or don't bother responding to his post.
You have seriously accomplished nothing but putting words on a screen and baiting me.
>>1128416
You are retarded.
>>1129929
The argument is simple. Zoroaster was a Persian born in the early to mid 6th century BC during the Jewish captivity in Babylon that evolved into captivity under the Medeo-Persian empire.
Zoroaster was exposed to the scriptures of the OT that the Jews brought with them into captivity, believed in them, and took them for himself, adding a little pagan fire god to appease the locals.
The complete and utter lack of any evidence showing that Zoroaster ever traveled to Israel speaks volumes. The OT came to him. He did not influence either the OT or Christianity; he merely believed what the one true God said.
The oldest copy of any manuscript you rely upon is almost 2000 years after the event took place. That you think such a document is reliable, yet the bible is not, is absurd.
>>1127574
>Western-style degeneracy
/pol/ is this way ->
Also
>I hate Islam
I don't know if you're aware of that, but you're no different than a taliban with your traditional viewpoint and conservative morals.
>>1127978
Fucking how?!
>>1127560
>religion that encourages incest
>good
>>1130139
>What is Genesis
>>1130139
>incest
>bad
>>1130105
Gathas pre-date 1000 BC which the ink used to write them were dated to on those goat skin parchments, so Zoroaster being a "6th" century prophet is fucking retarded. The fact there is no testaments or mentions of the Achaemenids and the overwhelmingly ignorant belief Darius claims his great-grandfather was a patron of Zaruthustra is valid is retarded.
Otherwise, Zoroastrianism influenced both Christianity and Judaism, but neither played any significant role on it in turn.
>>1127978
> I don't like muslims, but the Islamic revolution was definitely an improvement on Iranian society.
Ayatollah, please.
Islam was a disaster for the Persians and the Iranian Revolution only further acerbated it. It set them back a 100 years and destroyed the Iranian people’s chance to become a 1st world nation, a path that the Shah had put them on and which they had been steadily working towards.
>>1130105
>Zoroaster was exposed to the scriptures of the OT that the Jews brought with them into captivity
Is there ANYTHING the Jews don't claim to have created or invented?
I remember reading a Wiki article and it said the British _didn't know_ how to dry fish, until the Jews showed them how...
>>1129641
Are you retarded?
Abraham = 2000 BC
Moses = 1500 BC
Israel & Judah = 1000 BC
Persia = 500 BC
Cyrus had a vision from God who told him to conquer all the lands and free the Jews from Babylonian captivity. It's in the 2nd book of Chronicles.
>>1130479
> fry fish
>>1130481
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster
>In modern scholarship Zoroaster is often dated to the 10th century BCE
Uh-oh, looks like someone's been lying for Jesus again
>>1130487
>wikipedia
>""""modern scholarship""""
Uh-oh, looks like someone's been lying for Darwin again
>>1130517
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 23Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.
Book of 2nd Chronicles, chapter 36
>>1130481
>Abraham
>real
>Moses
>real
If you are arguing Cyrus the Great for whatever reason felt he was compelled to liberate the Jews in 539 BC when he defeated and conquered the Neo Babylonian Empire, then sure. If you are arguing THAT Judaism played any role on Zoroastrianism, then you are being ignorant.
>>1130530
>Cyrus
>real
See I can shitpost too.
>>1130481
Zoroastrianism was the official religion of the Achaemenid dynasty by 600BCE.
Zoroaster taught the tennets of the faith long before then, and it already had adehrants that probably transmitted doctrine via oral tradition.
Judaism and Zoroastrianism probably mutually influenced one another's ideas.
>>1130534
Cyrus is real you fucking moron, there is no actual scientific or physical evidence of Abraham or Moses.
>>1129250
Where are you from and how does Zoroastrianism play into the daily life of a follower, at least in your case? As in what rituals do you practice, what doctrines and virtues does it bring to your pondering in a normal day, how does it affect day to day decisions... That sorta thing.
Thanks for offering yer experience.
>>1130534
Que? Its commonly accepted that Moses alone was likely a conglomerate of a bunch of possibly real individuals that were merged into a single mythological figure at best.
Cyrus not being real is kind of fucking dumb as a riposte response though, man.
>there has to be physical evidence for someone to exist
I guess billions of people never existed then!
>>1130562
>I have to most goal posts this badly
>>1130574
>atheist
Nope.
>came from a rock by pure chance and that the world is billions of years old.
Nice databait.
>>1130530
It obviously did.
>>1130610
It didn't.
>>1128111
>calling the language Farsi and not Persian
Zoroastrianism is just a ripoff from the Hebrew God.
Persian was inspired by fragments of the Old Testament and created the religion.
It's nothing new, God used nations to either punish or enslave Israel.
Assyria and Babylon fulfilled their task so God powered up Persia.
>>1127562
Good argument
>>1130682
>>1130673
>>1129250
>says he's a practicing Zoroastrian
>says that the same virtues are found in Hindu-Buddhism and says that it's not closer to Christianity than any other religion
Heretic dregvant detected.
>>1129550
Ayy lmao
>>1130701
So Persians had a nice language..?
What does that have to do with the fact that Cyrus was empowered by the Christian God?
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 23Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.
Book of 2nd Chronicles, chapter 36
Here you have Cyrus himself saying he got a vision from the God of the Hebrews.
>>1130710
Considering Zoroastrianism is distantly related to Indo-Aryan religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, he's not wrong.
>>1130530
Gotta love the mental gymnastics atheists do.
Scoffers gonna scoff
>>1130730
Not a source
>>1130682
>A religion that already had its core tenants, beliefs, doctrines, and faith codified and organized between 500-800 years before Jews became monotheists themselves ripped the Jews off
Great argument, Shekelstein.
>>1130742
>A history book written by scribes that lived during the times of Persia
>not a source
You dropped your fedora.
>>1130741
>implying that religious people don't have to do extremely complex and convoluted mental gymnastics to get a belief system and a worldview that makes a little bit of sense
>>1130754
>history book
>not religious text
I'm laughing.
>King James
Now I'm laughing harder.
>>1130735
Mazdaism is an Aryan religion, yes. But it is an explicit rejection of Vedism.
>>1130735
Hinduism is heavily Dravidianized.
Why are people arguing with the loopy fundie? Nothing ever comes of it. He's either a troll, or completely out of touch with reality, either way he's utterly unable to be budged in his beliefs. He does nothing but shit up threads.
>>1130785
Buddhism is an "Aryan" religion as well, but it's also an explicit rejection of Vedism. I don't really know where I was going with this, I'm just saying according to lineage they share a lot.
>>1130788
What do we really know about early Dravidian religion? Besides deities like Shiva and Vishnu who were eventually conflated with Vedic gods and given a massive bump in status?
>>1130742
Correct, not a source.
The source.
>>1130764
You laugh alone.
>>1130810
Nah, I'm laughing with him.
>>1130810
Whatever keeps your self esteem afloat.
>>1130555
I'm from India, my family is ancestrally from bactria. We moved to India during 1800s, due to persecution.
> how does Zoroastrianism play into the daily life of a follower
Like what? Yeah we go to temple (if one is nearby) and pray daily, don't really have many rituals during the day besides wearing a holy shirt and thread. various festivals have some rules like fasting, etc. Community is quite small so we all know each other and marriages are all arranged.
>>1130710
>dregvant
lel. and are you seriously trying to teach me about my own religion? I don't think any of us would consider Christianity, especially the western type, to be close at all to our values.
I get that from a historical perspective, our ontology is related to christianity. but in practice that means little. our liturgy and rituals are very close to vedic hinduism, and they always have been. zoroastrianism is like vedism interpreted through a sort-of-monotheistic lens, if you understand.
>>1127560
Yes. All people have a right to the religions of their ancestors.
>>1130835
>wearing a holy shirt and thread
What do you mean? You have to change into holy clothes at some point every day or something?
>marriages are all arranged
Damn that sucks, dude. I hope you got/get a qt.
>>1130848
Yes, we have to wear a special tunic and tie a thread every morning. Just as the thread Brahmins wear.
>Damn that sucks, dude. I hope you got/get a qt.
Nah, I think its a good thing desu (our policy on people out-marrying is pretty shitty though - thats the main reason we'll die out soon). And thanks, I just got married this past summer :)
On a related subject, is one of the core reasons for the first Persian Empire's success and longevity due to its religious and cultural tolerance?
>>1130525
Fuck off bible shill.
>>1130835
woah, I never thought I'd run into a fellow Indian Zoroastrian on 4chan.
what're the chances??
Do you still have irani Zoroastrians in your family?
Just about all of my extended family is in India atm
>>1130898
Do you not browse /desi/ threads on /int/?
>irani Zoroastrians
as in, in Iran? No, we're from Afg (and the ones that stayed are either dead or just lost contact).
Are you Parsi?
>>1130816
Twofools.com
>>1130869
>our policy on people out-marrying is pretty shitty though
What happens? Do they or their children lose privileges or status in the faith?
>I just got married this past summer :)
Congrats, man. Another generation lives on.
>>1130896
Sort of. Cyrus' political and military acumen is what really launched Persia to the top and having the tolerance the Persians had to other cultures was just a cherry on top. They also had a modernized army that laid the basics for future militaries to have and having an excellent administration system.
atheists getting BTFO here
it must depressing getting wrecked in every debate
>>1127560
No, Zoroastrians jerk off to fire and think it's God. Islam is rational and triggered the Islamic golden age, which inspired the European Renaissance.
The only people who disagree are retards scared of the Muslim boogeyman and think the Islamic Golden Age was a myth because the facts interfere with the tribalism.
>>1130967
Epic bait. Islam made Iran shit and no amount of shilling the golden age will change that.
>>1127762
Literacy, wealth, secularism, and the economy have all risen dramatically in Iran since the revolution. Less people are hungry, everyone gets free education and health care, people actually have food that isn't being drained by the Shah and given to the British and the US.
But oh no it was some Muslims that threw off a puppet dictator, not the glorious Americans, like the did in Korea or Vietnam or Iraq or Cuba or all those other places where that didn't happen.
>>1127796
>but allowed for degrees of liberty which many Iranians enjoyed - as long as they kept on the good side of the regimes.
Wrong. the liberties were only enjoyed if you were the wealthy 1% involved in selling out the rest of the 99% of your own people to British interests.
>Khomeini was very brutal
Less than the shah. He actually established a Democracy and literacy exploded because of him, triggering extremely fast progress. The Iranian population is more secular than it's ever been in terms of government, and that's because the voting population does have some power, contrary to western propaganda.
>>1130975
>Secularism
Blatant lies. The Pahlavi rule was secular until the revolution came along and made a rigid Islamic government.
>>1127968
>look at these rich people not wearing scarves!
>pls ignore the nationwide poverty and illiteracy, while white people are welcome to party in designated areas where the peasants are not allowed to roam.
God damn this site knows so little about the middle east it's sad.
>>1128041
it's because that's the wealthy upper class who sold out their people for British wealth.
>>1129250
The game Crusader Kings 2 basically includes Zoroastrianism because it has a incest mechanic that makes it different.
So what's the actual connection to incest that Zoroastrians have?
>>1130986
Wouldn't it only matter as long as the kid is raised with Zoroastrian culture and faith?
I don't understand why both parents would need to be Zoroastrian for the kid to be raised as such. It's like some weird borderline ethno-genetic thing it seems like they're pushing.
>>1127574
What does the shah have to do with zoroastrianism?
>>1127578
>onservatism.
>degenerate
Sure. I suppose you prefer constant nudity, obscenity, sexual promiscuity, and a complete lack of self respect/an inclination towards self degradation in the name of physical pleasure.
>>1131038
Or you know, they would have been Zoroastrian or Muslims serving Zoroastrian rulers.
>>1130990
was wondering this too desu
>>1130990
There is a term for 'marriage to family' for us, but it is in a religious context. Based on examples (like Ohrmazd producing a child with his 'daughter' ) it was argued by priests that this practice was auspicious. It also helped nobles keep clan property to themselves. So yes in ancient times nobles practiced it.
>>1131025
The argument is that the child cannot fully be Zoroastrian in culture if one parent is not, and that even if the child was able to be one, its not like the spouse would be allowed into the temples anyways. I don't think its correct, but whatever.
> ethno-genetic
well, our community is so small that our religion has basically become the same as the culture and ethnicity. To preserve the latter, we had to resort to limiting entry to our community. Of course that effectively limits entry to the religion.
>>1131038
And why is that?
>>1131054
>The argument is that the child cannot fully be Zoroastrian in culture if one parent is not
Just curious, is there a scriptural basis for that? That must be a recent innovation right?
I remember there was a Sassanid emperor who had a Christian wife, I can't imagine his heirs not being allowed in temples.
>>1127560
I seriously doubt that the zoroastrian priesthood would've been better at ruling the place than the shi'ite one.
>>1131080
And why is that?
>>1131072
>Just curious, is there a scriptural basis for that?
Nope, and we don't claim that there is. Indeed, its just something we started enforcing after our numbers grew low. The mandate of non-Zoroastrians not being in temples has always been there though, so that queen (Shirin) would not have been able to enter a temple herself.
>>1131072
Not him but zoroastrianism has evolved a lot (like all long lived religions) and what was going on during the 6th century might not be representative of the actual zoroastrians. The sassanid era zoroastrians had no problem with conversion.
>>1131094
The zoroastrian priesthood was often actively hostile against other religions and tried actively to control the decisions of the state. Exactly like the mollah.
Nowadays is obviously different because no longer do exist the all-powerful high priests who boast about the persecution of infidels in the inscriptions. But in general having the priests in charge of the state (directly or indirectly) is a bad idea specially for individual liberties.
>>1131136
>often actively hostile against other religions
'often' is a strong word.
>>1131139
>Is the community putting forth any efforts to raise birth rates?
Our birthrates are low because we are a generally wealthy community and a lot of us don't even get married till very late in life. And while all the elders nag us about getting married, thats about the extent of it. The Indian government is so concerned they went so far as to issue ads convincing us to have kids lol.
>>1131161
>The Indian government is so concerned
That's cool, and pretty surprising honestly. I can't imagine them giving much of a rat's ass about preserving a fringe community imported from another country.
>>1131241
>a fringe community imported from another country.
that's not the way Indians really perceive us desu. We've been in India for a long time, and our faiths and cultures are far from foreign - most of us have no issues celebrating all the Hindu festivals. And countries are just modern inventions - the persia we were from is not the modern Iran.
>>1131161
>The Indian government is so concerned they went so far as to issue ads convincing us to have kids lol.
Lol I guess Indians really are nice. I almost feel bad about telling them to poo in loo.
>>1131269
Ah okay, sorry for the false assumption.
>>1131297
Indians are nice, hardworking people and dont deserve to get shat on so much.
[spoiler]They shit on themselves enough already[/spoiler]
>>1131379
WHY DONT SPOILERS WORK
>>1131136
Not really. You can find a shit ton of overlap between the Mobads with their Rabbi counterparts, part of the reason why there were so many wars between the Byzantines and Sassanids was due to how anti-Jewish policies the Christian Romans had against the "non" convert Jews.
Its nothing uniquely paralleled with the Mullahs because it was echoed by essentially every other major religious clergy of any other denomination or faith at the time. I mean for example, the Talmud was fucking started and completed with Sassanid patronage and Zoroastrian blessings for example.
Christians were distrusted for the same reason Zoroastrians and their kind were between both empires.
>>1131269
You are also more Indian then Persian to be fair.
Zoroastrianism is an amazing Aryan religion that fits the Persian much better than Islam.
>>1131382
History doesn't really have spoilers. I mean, nobody is waiting until they get home to see the final episode of WW2 to see who won.
>>1130919
>afghani
oh, my bad
>Are you Parsi?
Ya, I'm a student and working in the US atm, but I will return.
I had no idea about threads on /int/... don't visit many boards except /g/, /v/, &/sci/.
When I'm in India I usually make a pilgrimage to the Udvada and Navsari fire temples. I'm actually the last generation from my paternal lineage eligible to train as a mobed, but I'm not a devout believer.
>>1127560
>Would persia be better today if it was Zoroastrian rather than Muslim
Well the pproblem with Iran is that its ruled by Dicks...Muslim Dicks, if Iran was ruled by Zoroastian Dicks it would still be shit, if the rulers werent dicks, it wouldnt really matter which religion they are...
(btw Zoroastrians are still kinda important in Iran, even more with Persians outside of Iran)
>>1131568
i think so
>>1131462
In what way or definition of both those terms?
>>1131313
Its fine. Most westerners don't know much about Zoroastrianism besides its historical context.
>>1131549
Nice, I'm Irani, from Hyderabad (I have some parsi relatives though)
yeah iranshah is probably the best one in India. I get that you aren't devout enough to be a mobed, but I hope you at least marry a nice parsi girl :)
>I'm a student and working in the US atm, but I will return.
are you literally me? fuck
> /sci/
how do you not have cancer yet. post in /desi/, its pretty decent.
>>1131639
Parsee and Iranis both show pretty heavy admixture with Indians, physically and genetically. I was actually surprised meting a Parsee at how dark and Indian looking he was a few years ago at this convention for Iranians in DC.
>>1130835
What are temple services like? Any facts about your religion that you find particularly interesting? How does one become a religious leader?
I've heard Indian nationalists have been cracking down on non-Hindu religions recently, so has that had any effect on the Zoroastrian community there? What do you think of Zoroastrianisms chances of survival, or expansion, In India and abroad in the coming future?
>>1131469
likewise to you. Christianity is a semitic folk religion.
>>1131762
>I've heard Indian nationalists have been cracking down on non-Hindu religions recently,
That's fucked up. Especially for a nation that supposedly embraces a long history of diversity in nearly everything from food to language to religion.
India's got a classic Buddhist symbol on their flag, are these idiots going to go after that too?
so much diaspora shilling ITT.
>>1131701
>pretty heavy admixture with Indians
By Indians you mean Gujaratis, yeah they do. Parsees more than Iranis (as we came pretty recently and were already practicing endogamy when we got there). But culturally, at least speaking for Iranis, I don't think we can be called more Indian than Persian.
>>1131762
>What are temple services like?
Depends on the occasion. Usually its fairly boring with some offerings, prayers, readings etc. You train from a young age to become a mobed, and its passed down a family line - those with that line usually have names which indicate it, sort of like a priest caste I guess.
Indian nationalists generally like us a lot, same with buddhists, jains, etc. Its mostly a reaction to muslims and westernized christians.
>>1131799
Its a more subtle issue than you're making it m8....
>>1131701
Parsee's are probably 50% native Gujarati and 50% Irani. The anti-misegeny "regulation" to be initiated into the community by the mobeds is still upheld but genetic tests show male-mediated mixing, probably when a Parsee dude marries a Hindu wife the priests must've let tit slide so to speak.
The anti-mixing regulations are partly a desire to maintain ethnic cohesion and partly imposed by the Hindu host dynasties as a condition for coexistence.
Either way, yeah, pretty heavy mixing.
considering iranian history post-zoroastrianism is being bullied by arabs and steppe peoples, yes
>>1132427
Majority of non-native ruling dynasties and peoples were assimilated by the Iranians. They are the ultimate survivors. Arabs, Turks, and even the Mongols didn't end them, their doing just fine.
>>1127578
Bet you like traps
>>1130730
>they wuz krishun' n' shit
literally hebrew-israelite tier logic
>>1133974
Thanks for the compliment.
Why am I not surprised the other Zoroastrian thread got deleted by the safe /his/space Christian police?
Question for Zorofags: do you think Zoroastrianism can undergo a kind of reformation to both save the community from going extinct and allowing for stray Indo-Europeans around the world to convert to a religion more akin to their roots than say, Christianity and Islam?
>>1133976
>>1133977
>religion more akin to their roots than
You mean Vedic Brahmanism?
>Zoroastrianism
>in the 21st century
I don't think so.
>>1133977
>/his/space Christian police
thats something that exists only in your mind
and no we live in world where number of atheists (not just fedora tippers but also people who dont care about religion) is growing, it will stay limited to traditional worshipers and few western hipsters
>>1133983
>satanic hexagram
That's not an Israelite.
The icon of the ancient Israelites was the Menorah or Lion of Judah.
That occult star is the icon of Talmudic, Rabbinical, Babylonian Judaism. Synagogue of Satan, the Pharisees, etc.
>>1133977
Zoroastrianism is really an exception among the ancient indo european religions. It's monotheistic, prophet-based, and anti-idolatry. It certainly is indo european if you read its text but it's symbols and iconography resembles Sumerian culture for some reason.
Very odd.
>>1133999
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUyMs_9N_1o
>>1134021
I think that's because the ancient Aryans were nomadic horsemen and cattle herders who worshipped and sacrificed in the open air and didn't have a iconography or temple architecture. Their gods were the heavenly bodies ("shinning ones"), natural phenomena and abstract concepts such as law and friendship (Mitra). But as soon as they settled down they wished to be a Near Eastern Empire like the Assyrians and copied their iconography and architecture, like the Israelites copied ther iconography and temple architecture from Phoenicians, Egyptians, Babylonians, the Germans from the Romans, etc. It's how culture works.
>>1128416
Islam sabotaged Muslim science and they haven't recovered since. Take a look at the history and you can see
>>1130107
>you're almost a terrorist because you hate a religion that allows rape
Wat
>>1133991
>that image
lol some real butthurt feminist christian has access to a copy of photoshop apparently.
>>1132253
>must've let tit slide
its because the endogamy practice wasn't enforced until more recently. in the past, the usually patrilineal system was used without issue.
>>1132412
I feel a kinship to the Indian nation, but that's not really about ethnicity. I feel more related to Iranics, but I know the modern ones have almost no connection to my religion now. Indian culture is really great, but it doesn't feel like 'kinship' if you know what I mean.
Are you the guy I talked to last thread?
>>1134021
>anti-idolatry
lelno
>>1133977
I'm fine with accepting persian muslims (or hindus who have studied the avesta), but westerners would just fuck the culture up beyond repair, and non-persian muslims wouldn't want to join anyways. we're completely fine as it is, we will solve our population issues ourselves.
if westerners want to join, they can go make some hippie knockoff version that we don't have a part in.
and as >>1133985 says, the only people with 'zoroastrian' cultural roots still visible are probably hindus, and maybe armenians.
>>1134399
So you feel closer to any Indian vs an actual Muslim/Christian/Jewish/non-Zoroastrian Persian or Iranian?
>>1134399
>westerners would just fuck the culture up beyond repair
I actually had a vision of the first Zoroastrian lesbian priestess ever:
>I don't really believe in any of the dogmas, but I found Zoroastrianism to be the religion that really appealed to my feminist ideals
In other news, the liberal media deplores the "old conservative wing" of the Zoroastrian "church" (actually 99,99%) as "very problematic" and needing to "change" and come into the 21st century, as the US government treatens to remove their tax-exempt status if they don't allow divorce, gay and trans-species marriages.
Yeah, you're probably right.
>>1134929
Even the super fringe religions are being attacked for not being progressive, actually. Some of them are attacked even worse.
You know how much the practicing Norse Pagans in Scandinavia get shit on by the media for being more hardline anti immigrant than their Christian counterparts? It's slightly amusing.
>>1135107
>Norse Pagans are more anti immigrant than others
Really?
Half of them seem to be SJWs, or that's kinda what I get.
>>1135117
>Half of them seem to be SJWs, or that's kinda what I get.
Common misconception, sorta.
The progressive pagans are almost entirely wiccans, the 1960s/70s reconstructionist shit that really has historical zero basis even for someone who wants to practice that sort of stuff. Big on Tumblr.
Then you get the other crowd, the Volkisch crowd like Vaarg. They are mostly old, bitter white men with beards down to their knees. They're mostly ultra racist, to the extent even christianity is seen as an invading foreign middle eastern faith that needs to gtfo.
>>1135135
That's not entirely true. There's a large universalist bent among Germanic neo-pagans that have little to do with wiccans.
>>1135153
>>1135135
It's tricky to pin down. Maybe its best to describe the difference based more on why people take up those faiths.
Some do so because they want to be religious but want to rebel against what they perceive to be the current establishment/normality.
Some do it to appeal to a sense of cultural belonging, by worshiping what their ancestors worshiped for thousands of years, by taking part in the original religion of the region, which is where the racism/nationalistic overtones can play into it.
>>1135174
Personally, I've been toying with the notion because I feel polytheism fits best my conception of divinity, so I don't really feel an attraction to either side of that particular issue.
>>1131032
yes.
>>1135182
Likewise, if I'm being honest. I felt it fit me, and I don't care about the politics. Good to see I'm not alone even here.
>>1135174
>racism/nationalistic overtones
Fuck off. No country in the world has or has ever had the obligation to serve as permanent residence for millions upon millions of foreigners who have no intention of leaving and no intention of assimilating (quite the opposite really), but come for economical reasons only. This is not racism/nationalism. It's common sense.
>>1135233
I didn't say it was a bad thing, Anon. Relax. As I said before, I'm polytheistic myself and I can see value in holding ones cultural identity in high esteem, it's what separates you from the rest of the world really, and it's part of the reason I'm not fond of Christianity, as its one world religion vibe makes every country mostly the same as another.
Sorry if I came off a different way, I was just trying to stay unbiased.
>>1135251
Oh. Sorry I misunderstood you.
>>1135251
"racism" is just being a realistic.
Have you seen an Abo skull and a Caucasian skull?
>>1135358
Yeah because I live in Australia and have known many abos in my time.
I can't even bring myself to hate them, they're fucking hilarious, almost harmless. In certain regions they sleep on the road.
>>1128694
>implying that it's not always the Dindus' fault.
>>1130671
You should consider killing yourself
>>1128774
Gtfo you pagan shill
>>1135406
>A crusader being mad that someone gave Christianity a compliment while shitting over Islam
>Calling someone a Pagan in a discussion about monotheistic faiths.
The fuck are you smoking?
>>1135440
Don't even talk to me
>there are two parsis in this very thread right now.
nice
>>1131762
>on non-Hindu religions recently
primarily bible belt christianity and wahabi madrassas, they are cancer.
Parsibros. what do you think about Sam Manekshaw?
>>1131762
>I've heard Indian nationalists have been cracking down on non-Hindu religions recently
I've visited India recently. It's not that black and white. They don't really like Christians, sure, but they tolerate them mostly. Muslims however, are loathed with very good reason, and I'm not even inherently racist/sacrilegious to particular faiths. I'll just say, I can't blame the Hindus for trying to be rid of them.
As it stands, Zoroastrians are left alone in the same way Sikhs are, as far as I've seen and heard. Don't mistake the eternal conflict with the Muslims as a campaign against anything else, is what I'm saying.
>>1135553
what place did you visit?
>>1135557
Mumbai, but I also traveled outwards into other regions, mostly Hindu holy sites, like the Shiv Temple in Assam.
Honestly the main threat facing Zoroastrians in India isn't violence, its a lack of breeding. Currently I believe its 1000 deaths to every 200 births, which against the backdrop of the most reproductive place on Earth is quite terrifying.
>>1134759
That's not what I said (or meant to). I meant that I do feel closer to Iranics culturally, but I just know that in reality, the people that have more similar values and outlook are Indians. I mean Indians took us in, they give money to our temples, enjoy our food, etc. The others don't do anything besides the occasional edgy persian wanting to convert. Its a complicated feeling m8.
>>1134929
Interestingly, in Iran the Zoroastrians just recently allowed female priests. All the liberal Parsees in India now want to follow suit.
>>1135553
>>1135519
These guys are correct. Hindu nationalists attack things which are anti Indian in nature. India has always been a place of syncretism, but you have to understand, syncretism =/= tolerance for outsiders pushing their agendas.
Do american christian missionaries or islamists allow syncretism? No, they advocate for quite the opposite. And for the record, India has native, syriac christians who don't seem to have any issues with this.
>>1135532
Based.
>>1135584
Mumbai has some good Irani cafes.
>>1135971
Missionaries got to respect the culture they're proselytizing to. I can understand wanting to convert people, but you shouldn't destroy someone's way of lifestyle in the process.
>>1137416
The people who convert don't respect their own culture, so it tends to work.
>>1135971
How is it "edgy" for another Persian to convert? No wonder with this mindset why so many Iranians are preferring to go Christian instead of Zoroastrian these days.
>>1131456
http://www.avesta.org/mp/kz.html
>And in kingdom after kingdom and place after place throughout the whole empire the services of Ahura Mazda and the Yazads became preeminent, and great dignity came to the Mazdayasnian religion and the magi in the empire, and the Yazads and water and fire and small cattle in the empire attained great satisfaction, while Ahriman and the devs were punished and rebuked, and the teachings of Ahriman and the devs departed from the empire and were abandoned. And Jews, Sramans (Buddhists), (10) Brahmins, Nasoreans (Orthodox Christians), (Gnostic) Christians, Maktak (Baptisers), and Zandiks (Manichaeans) in the empire were smitten, and destruction of idols and scattering of the stores of the devs and god-seats and nests was abandoned. And in kingdom after kingdom and place after place many divine services in magnificence and many Warharan fires were established, and many magi became happy and prosperous, and many fires and magi were imperially installed.
It's clear that the mobads were far from tolerant or at least an important section amongst them, since we have a motherfucking inscription that survived the ages. The attitude of the Sasanian monarchs is independent to this, since some supported this and some did not like everywhere you see monarchs who are more or less controled by the fanatics.
>>1138021
Once again how is this different from any other religious or clerical figures in the past?
>>1133977
Iranian zoroastrian diaspora in the USA and other countries accept converts. But they're very small in numbers (even compared to the zoroastrians from south asia) and a lot are adopting secularism or even atheism or even becoming soft muslims, to integrate themselves better.
Do not confuse iranian zoroastrians with the iranis, zoroastrians in india (but different from the parsis too). Although in the end the origin is the same of course.
>>1138030
It isn't, but in >>1131080 nobody talks about the zoroastrian priesthood being worst, but equal.
In general I just don't like the idea of theocratical rule and in the case of Iran (unlike in other countries like saudi arabia) I don't think that changing the religion would have changed the problems of the nation.
>>1138168
You know one of the reasons why the Zoroastrian clergy had so much power is because the ruling family, House Sasan, were descendents of fucking Zoroastrian priests and Persian nobles themselves right? Sasan, Ardashir's father, was a particularly famous case of being a hugely popular priest.
There's little wonder why a family who invests themselves in a faith they are literally tied to in blood before they became a major world power would allow other peers who represent the theocratic backbone of the empire so much power or leeway.
But again, the other anon points out, its nothing unique. And Jews of all other religious minorities had esteem and generally friendly relations with Zoroastrians.
>>1137991
Its not at all. Its just that a lot of them only do it because they hate islam, then never care to actually practice zoroastrianism - same as edge westerners converting to hinduism just to appear 'spiritual' or whatever. I would like nothing more than to see them convert, m8, don't misunderstand.
>>1135375
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA241Lg70fg
>>1127628
Can you blame that on the religion or the despots using the religion as the opiate to control the masses? This is of course rhetorical.
>>1135971
>Based.
>a parsi jew and sikh cucked the sword of islam so hard they became a terrorist state.
>>1138325
That's a pretty far reaching blanket statement, I'm not buying it.
>>1130989
> look at all these rich people in McMansions!
> we need to overthrown the government and institute a bat-shit crazy theocracy!
