What went wrong, /his/tory buffs? Are they victims of circumstance or doomed from the start? Input? Pic unrelated
Between 90 and 95% died from the spread of disease caused by first contact with Europeans. Everything that followed was simply the aftermath.
They got completely raped by the diseases carried from the Old World, literally 80 to 90% of their population went extinct thanks to plagues. That's some post-apocalyptic movie tier shit, even Black Death was nowhere near that brutal, killing about 40% of Europe.
>>1121597
How about the present circumstances? Alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, unemployment, is it common for groups of people who get btfo like that to fall into that sort of stuff?
>>1121610
Shit like alcoholism and obesity are actually very biological, the former is related to their biological inability to oxidize ethanol into acetaldehyde, the latter is because they can't handle sugar well. When you put a native on the average sized white person diet he will swell up like a balloon.
As for crime and poverty, it's because they have low IQ (inb4 go back to /pol/). There's a strong correlation between those.
>>1121597
Of course it's not like that shit was spread intentionally seeing as there's only one letter which mentions the idea of using it but never stating whether or not it was caried out.
>>1121678
The Seminoles of Hollywood FL are all balling.
>have no concept of land ownership
>complain for the next 500 years about white people taking something you didn't even know was a thing
>>1121678
So indians didn't have alcohol before the europeans arrived or something?
>>1122251
They had some access to low ABV fermented beverages, but they didn't have distillation, and never really figured out how to produce large quantities of beer/wine.
Liquor rekt them hard.
Progress took place. Indians in the year 1880 in Oklahoma vs whites in the year 1940 Oklahoma.
I hate my life
>>1121678
How does the inability to oxidize ethanol lead to chemical dependency on alcohol? I was under the impression it just led to red face like in some Asian cultures
>>1122401
Ah, yes. Everyone's favorite past-time: cherry picking photos.
>>1121587
Had the Europeans not done it, the Chinese, Arabs, Turkics, Persians, Japanese, etc would have. This is of course unlikely due to the distance but the Americas would've been colonized by a foreign power eventually. And they would've been more or less just as brutal. The Spaniards ironically were probably inspired by their previous moorish rulers. That being said I think the Europeans just wanted to subjugate the population, not genocide them. It was merely the disease that killed most of them.
>>1122993
Last time I checked the Moors never genocides the Iberians.
>>1122993
Did the disease come from the spa oars or the Norse? Because a lot of the population was dead when the pilgrims arrived, and that was shortly after the Spanish arrived right?
>>1123033
*spanish omg autocorrect
>>1122999
The Spanish didn't genocide the natives.
>>1122999
I'm referring to their brutality/imperialistic tactics.
>>1123033
There weren't as many Norse settlers as there were Spanish, and the Norse settlers only really reached the North-eastern coast of North America, so their diseases probably killed a lot of people but not as astronomically much as the Spaniards.
>>1123071
They did enslave them though
How has all this affected their role in present society? At what point did the alcohol, drugs, crime, and unemployment become the norm? And for the ones that don't, are they viewed like that by the rest of modern socket and why?
>>1121587
Too many languages, too spread out, too many internecine wars. Plentiful resources meant no real need to advance.
They couldn't organize against outsiders.
They needed more Kevin Costners.
>>1123104
Society* damnit
>>1123104
theyre basically entirely lower class workers or bums, and just like all other lower class people, some are cool, but mos stick, are drug addicts, and generally rude and unpleasant. niggers, natives, latinos, hell even low class white people are in general not the kind of people who you want to be around
>>1121587
Even if they made sincere attempts at civilizing themselves (which some did) they still would've gotten fukt. Racism + competing land interests.
The widespread psychological blow has fucked them to this day, and will continue to do so. I have a friend who works on reservations and fucking despises it (but doesn't take their shit personally).
>>1121587
Assimilation was risky for sure, though it was their best bet in the long term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villagómez_family
The biggest problem seemed to be reliance on european patronage which could easily evaporate in a crisis.
Latin America was more feudal making this easier, the threat of ethnic violence bound you closely to your protector, overlords welcomed this and would offer political protection if you proved to be more reliable than some rogue conquistador. It was a very natural friendly personal system, muscular patricians would hunt together then sip sweet tea on the veranda and discuss aesthetics and intellectual pursuits.
In North America however the highly centralized state cared little about some tribe 100s of miles away. Federal governments are devilish and care little for state rights, they view local government and individuals as competition and try to limit them as much as possible, even where impractical. They viewed people as their playthings, like chess pieces for them to move around a board.
>>1123434
Resulting in a general sense of nihilism, hopelessness, doom, and self loathing amongst the tribes, now locked in a pit of despair that they are lucky to be able to escape
>>1122401
1880 Oklahoma wasn't in the grips of a massive fucking dustbowl that paralyzed the region for many years.
>>1122280
I think they recently found that some Mesoamericans did have liquor. And they did drink a lot of fermented drinks in some rituals. Theres Maya artworks where you see them vomitting even. Though they were hardcore, they got drunk through enemas.
>>1123071
They did in some places.
>>1122999
We are talking about a period of near 500 years between the viking voyages to America and the arrival of the Spanish, I am pretty sure the Indians would have developed some immunity and managed to regrow again once the second European wave came if they got their diseases from the Vikings.
>>1122910
>cherrypicking
Would you kindly describe with words that you understand what you are accusing anon of?
>>1124116
It would take a really long time to recover after losing 90% of your population, I wouldn't be surprised if it took longer than 500 years
>>1121598
indeed it's best to think of it as a sort of proto-apocalypse of a stone-age/early-bronze age civilization.
>>1123033
>>1123077
in north america (or at least the present day united states) it's probably the french that accidentally-ed the entire mississippi valley civilization.(via trading peacefully with the natives)
the Spanish Conquistadors were basically fucking lucky, and relied greatly on smaller tribes who were sick of the shit the Aztecs and Inca did.
>the Maya were in a civil war.
it's weird, while it's sometimes looked down upon, I think Gun's Germs and Steel provides a (extremely general) explanation for why technology wasn't that advanced in the america's. That it was the geography that created natural trade barriers.
there was metallurgy in pre-columbian america.. with equipment for molding copper existing in some areas.
in the northwest I think there was iron-working, (from meteoric and surface deposits) it was crude though.
>>1122452
This is only from five minutes of research, but it's based on the amount of ethanol being present affecting the release of endorphins.
Natives Americans and Africans have a different allele of our alcohol dehydrogenase which is less effective at converting it to acetaldehyde.
I may be competently wrong and misinterpreting everything though so actually go look for yourself.
>>1121678
>obesity are actually very biological
My inner /fit/ is triggered.
>>1122213
I never got this meme that people perpetuate
Of course they knew what land ownership was, they fought each other for it (like normal people do) before we ever got there
Being from the European union (probably not much longer though) i would love to formally apologize for everything we did to the natives~
IM SORRY!
>>1123104
Same as any impoverished people, it creates a vicious cycle. Say what you want about nature v nurture, raising your kids in a drug addict/alcoholic/unemployed household is going to make the kids much more likely to do the same.
Sad really, I've met a lot of natives that were bros, but most of those got off the rez asap
>>1125208
Cuck
>>1121889
>Of course it's not like that shit was spread intentionally
Well sure, of course not. This happened before anyone even understood germ theory. In fact the epidemic mostly traveled ahead of the Euros themselves, so by the time they showed up civilization was already destroyed.
>>1123453
because the federal government sucks at promoting patrician virtues
>>1125208
>i would love to formally apologize for everything we did to the natives~
I think it's pretty racist to act like natives were noble innocent victims who lacked human motivations, distinguishing characteristics, or any agency to determine their own destiny.
>>1125499
I think its pretty racist to think that the modern natives are effected by the atrocities on the natives 300 years ago. Cant they just be treated like people, rather than the victims of the fate their ancestors "laid out for them"?
What! Have you heard all the native american personal and tribal names translated to spanish? One princess is called "little shame" and the tribe is called "dinner, eat here"
>>1125791
He that perfumes shit, by shit they shall be filled.
>>1125208
As another european im quiet ashamed of your cuckdom because our ancestors stayed at home and dindu nuffin safe for some kings who ordered the conquostadores over.
You are probably not even spanish.
>>1125204
I think it was that they would share land, fishing spots like Manhattan, and sell the land to white people, then tribe B moves in to whitey throwing up a sign that says 'New Amsterdam'.
>>1121587
>doomed from the start
I dunno, I'm a museum administrator with a masters, so I don't feel that doomed.
We can actually thrive in environments that aren't socio-economic deserts. Some of these rez locations only have a convenience store for local grocery access.
>>1122452
maybe it stays in your system longer causing dependency
>>1125846
This is a bit of a misconception. Spanish kings actually tried to protect the native inhabitants and questioned the morality of what they were doing. The conquistadors often defied the crowns orders and were doing ilegal things on their own accord like Cortes and Pizarro. Even though there were technically laws to protect the natives many encomenderos still mistreated their native workers where they had serf-tier conditions. The clergy acted as its own agency trying to be the middle man in between the natives and colonial authorities. But even they had their share of abuses, not to mention some of the natives that took advantage of the new political system and abused their fellow natives. The Spanish were hardly the only ones having a presence in the Americas prior to the English, the French and especially Portuguese did fucked up stuff too.
>>1125191
It's not like they're helpless, but genetics definitely play role in how easily you pack on fat.
>>1125499
There's a tendency to treat the natives like smurfs instead of the often flawed, brutal, and industrious humans they really were (in other words, not so different from Europeans). It sort of infantilizes them and their history.
This applies mostly to northern native americans of course, no one's romanticizing human sacrifice.
>>1127272
There's some who deny human sacrifices took place at all and say the depictions in codices were references to open heart surgery.
>>1125578
There are clear historical consequences to the mistreatment of certain groups that continues to affect their descendants. Look at African-Americans for example. It has nothing to do with feeling sorry for them and treating them like they're pitiful. When one generation is mistreated, their children are going to be affected by the environment they are in, and so on.
>>1127375
Now thats just silly.
>>1127250
I believe almost everyone agrees that
>People have inherent metabolisms (The amount of base energy to run their body.)
>People have inherent hunger states (The amount of food they feel they should eat)
>Some people have these out of synch.
I, for example, relatively skinny, have a lower hunger state, but a high metabolism. In that, my body likes to burn food regardless of requirement.
These are difficult to surpass, but well worth it in the case of people like me, and the fatfucks.
>>1123457
>1880 Oklahoma wasn't in the grips of a massive fucking dustbowl that paralyzed the region for many years.
Directly cause by settlers and over processing of the land.
>>1125191
Your inner fit should know all about genetic predisposition to diet then.
The vast majority of Pacific Asia is lactose intolerant. Europeans have long term issues with diets high in coconuts. Aboriginal Australians can't metabolize hard sugars, and get diabetes looking at a bag of skittles.
Genetics evolving over thousands of years adjust to take advantage of available resources in diet.
>>1128142
That feel when I'm 3/4 native american and can't tolerate diaries.
>>1128508
>can't tolerate diaries
What do you have against people writing their inner thoughts privately, Native anon?
>>1125883
Makes sense
