How do Jews, Christians, and Muslims defend their beliefs about god when their god was once merely the god of war/storms of the Canaanite pantheon? It explains why god couldn't defeat iron chariots, for example (he wasn't claimed to be omnipotent at this point), why he loved sacrifices, told others to have no other gods before him, etc. It was always accepted that he was merely one god and not 'all powerful'. And each tribe/people had their own god, of which the ancient Israelites chose Yahweh.
This only changed over time when gradually the ancient Israelites over thousands of years attributed more and more to him until he was accepted as the only all powerful, all knowing god who created everything.
So, if you worship the Abrahamic god, why don't you accept him as he originally was, yet accept all of these later claims that came about over thousands of years and were added later with no real basis?
>>1091993
Easy, I don't give a shit.
Mental gymnastics.
>how do Christians defend their God against random hypothesis no. 3 even though the first mention of YHWH originates with the Shasu and it has nothing to do with a pantheon
>>1092010
>it has nothing to do with a pantheon
there's no way to tell if that inscription in Edom is about a god within a pantheon or a god not within a pantheon. hell, we can't even be completely sure that inscription is for the god Yahweh and isn't the name of the location or some shit
>>1092021
The explanation is more substantial than no. 3.
>>1091993
How do people like you escape your restraints and gain internet access?
>>1092029
no. 3 what?
Why would I have to defend what I believe ? You believe what you think is right, I believe what I think is right. It's that simple
>>1092010
it looks like yahweh was a southern god, coming from midian or perhap edom, who was worked into an extant canaanite pantheon, replacing baal. the only real evidence we have to go on is a egyptian description of a midianite tribe as being "shasu of yahu". but there is also a decent argument comparing yahweh and the edomite qos. there's an apparent lack of condemnation for edomites in the bible, as well as the mythological close relationship between israel/jacob and edom/esau in genesis. so i think it's more likely that yahweh is an epithet of qos (or vice versa) than of el.
it seems likely that yahweh is a southern god, from midian and/or edom, who was merged into the canaanite pantheon replacing baal/hadad, and then conflated into a monotheistic god. he becomes associated with war after the deuteronomic reforms, when he becomes the patron god of josiah's armies who expel other religions from judah. thus, yahweh of the armies (tsavaot).
yahweh worship may not even be explicitly monotheistic now, depending on semantic debates about whether you consider a council of angels to be a pantheon (i don't see a substantive differences, so i do).
early versions of the cult were likely henotheistic or monolatrist, worshiping one god they placed at the top of their pantheon, and ignoring the others. the deuteronomic reforms (should those prove to be historical, and i suspect they are) would have placed this cult in political and religious power. a statement like "have no other gods before yahweh" takes a bit of a different context when you have an army behind you, letting your purge other cults from the kingdom. from there it likely transitioned more towards monotheism, denying the other standard gods of the pantheon, or merging them with yahweh.
>>1092147
also he was synchronized with El. Several names in the Bible, including Israel, are El names
>>1091993
Except for the part in Genesis where it literally said he created everything.
The "God of the Old Testament" started off as a secondary figure. Look at Deuteronomy 32:8-9,
8. When the Most High apportioned the nations,
when he divided humankind,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the gods;
9. the Lord’s own portion was his people,
Jacob his allotted share. (NRSV, using manuscripts from Qumran)
The Most High is usually a means of referring to El (who was later combined with Yahweh). So El apportioned the nations and Yahweh's portion was Israel. (Not a surprising choice.) The other gods got other peoples. You can imagine early on a council of the gods of which El was at the head and Yahweh was a member. A similar structure is implied in Ps 82:
1. God [Elohim] has taken his place in the council of El;
in the midst of the gods [elohim] he holds judgment:
...
6. I say, “You are gods [elohim],
children (or sons) of the Most High, all of you;
Below the translation things are somewhat confused here and that confusion is already in the Masada Psalms scroll. (NRSV has "divine council" for "council of El": the latter reflects the Hebrew more closely.) But the intention is fairly easy to spot.
If we replace the first "Elohim" with Yahweh, given that much of the bible presents them as references to the one deity, it's very simple. Once again we are facing the god of Israel as member of the council of El, along with various other gods and they are all sons of El.
At a later stage, Yahweh is acknowledged as the only god Israel should worship. Ex 20:2-3,
2. I am the Lord your God...
3. you shall have no other gods besides me.
Eventually, it would be that the other gods were really only idols.
So, a brief evolution of "the God of the Old Testament". And how do you prove a god? Either he is or he isn't. By definition he is beyond perception, so there is no proof! Texts are naturally no help. There is no way to decide if they are of human or divine conception.
>>1092320
The stories and ideas concerning Yahweh were also informed by a polemical purpose. A polemic in this context is a rebuttal of the myths of a neighboring group of people. To this end, stories were created wherein Yahweh was given credit for things thought to have been done by Baal (Canaanite storm god and source of "cloud rider" imagery) and Marduk (Babylonian creator and chief god, slayer of Tiamat, reworked as the slaying of Levithan, IIRC, and Genesis 1's chaotic deep).
Pagan distortion
>>1092323
>stories were created wherein Yahweh was given credit for things thought to have been done by Baal (Canaanite storm god and source of "cloud rider" imagery)
don't forget Yahweh slaying Leviathan in Isaiah
>>1092147
>qos
Or some say Qosm
You are all barking at the wrong tree.
>>1092147
Anyone know anything I can read to learn more about Qos? I can't hardly find anything online about the god
>>1091993
He couldn't defeat iron chariots because iron beats fairies.
A fairy is a fag.
Q.E.D. God is a fag.
>>1091993
Jew here
El was a war god, Yaweh was an African god.
Two different periods bruh.
>>1093317
uh source? how was El a war god? He was the head of the Canaanite pantheon and never was warlike in any of the Ugarit texts. And how is Yahweh african in origin?
>>1093340
>>1093340
He's an Ethiopian jew "we wuz" guy, ignore his bullshit about sub-saharan Africa's importance in the middle/near east
>>1092140
>I believe you're a pedophile so o tell everyone you're a pedophile
>I don't have to validate my beliefs to anyone
>>1093340
I may be wrong about the war god aspect, my rabbi told me about that. BUT the first mention of Yahweh/Yahu is inscribed in ancient Egypt referring to Midianites, the people with which Tzipporah wife of Moses belonged to who was also referred to as a Cushite.
Joseph ben Matityahu arguably one of the most important Jewish historians of all times stated that Midianites main descendants are Ethiopian herders who lived in homes carved in mountains or caves.
Another interesting fact: Druze who claim descent from Jethro father of Tzipporah have significant proportions of their male population carrying an East African haplogroup.
>>1093420
How is any region subsaharan when Egypt and North Sudan/Ethiopian is at or above the Sahara anon?
What's we wuz when genetic testing shows all Jews have African ancestry?
Israel has a very long history of African populations and genetics, it's not far away from the continent.
>>1091993
I too, have read A History of God by Karen Armstrong.
>>1093465
Everyone has African ancestry
What's you point?
>>1091993
am jew. All jews know, really religious minority have mental gymnastics, most don't don't care because its our culture anyway. Judaism is literally just traditions of the jewish people, less of a religion than that. A significant portion of jews are atheist and still do religious things anyway. If anything we're confused why Christians and muslims wanna play at pretending to be jews. When they realize our cultural god has no relevance to them they get really butthurt.
>>1093571
No everyone derives from the first humans from Africa, African descent is not the same
>>1093451
>implying my beliefs harm you in any way
You can't be this retarded
None of this should be any of your business anyway
>>1093465
>Another interesting fact: Druze who claim descent from Jethro father of Tzipporah have significant proportions of their male population carrying an East African haplogroup.
then why do they look so white?
>>1094794
Because phenotype =/= genotype
>>1093622
If all this is true them why do they still cut cock & believe in a shakey claim to someone elses land
>>1093289
>worshipping Mammon, ever
Well sure, if you want to poison your soul. You don't even have to be religious to understand that unchecked materialism is seriously damaging to one's emotional health.
>>1092140
Untested faith is weak faith.
>>1094823
>believe in a shakey claim to someone elses land
Moving a few million people who are willing and don't have much to lose to a desert nation that hasnt existed for millenia is easy.
Evicting a few more million who have developed the land, dont wish to move because it's their home, have nowhere else to go, and have almost everything to lose is significantly harder.
>>1091993
>How do Jews, Christians, and Muslims defend their beliefs about god when their god was once merely the god of war/storms of the Canaanite pantheon?
They are obligated to reject anthropology and insist that their god is a unique phenomenon.
That's why anti-intellectualism is rampant among Christians.
>>1091993
Because Jesus is super cool bro, go to your nearest catholic church.
>>1091993
You seem to forget the fact that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
>We lie, what do christians do about it?
Protip: not listening to lies.
>well the bible says that
The bible says that the bible lies, the bible says that delicious food was forbidden, the bible says that sexual fun is bad, the bible says to even let yourself be smacked in the face and do not give the smack back
It's very clearly written by satan.
"El" just means "god", which is a title. It can be a proper name just like we say God in English, as King and Lord can be proper names.
There is zero record of YHWH in a pantheon or any worship of YHWH in a polytheistic context.
>>1092002
We're not talking about atheists here
>>1091993
>How do Jews, Christians, and Muslims defend their beliefs about god when their god was once merely the god of war/storms of the Canaanite pantheon
cause when god started doing shit and talking to them, they associated him with their earlier pagan fairy tales.
>god couldn't defeat iron chariots
nor couldn't he defeat 2 sticks nailed together.
>>1099900
Jesus never called himself God. He alluded to it.
>>1099941
>Let me tell lies, I'm sure you will believe them
No, I won't.
Do a miracle, btw.
>>1099941
John 14:9 is a pretty strong allusion, though, but that was strictly to his Apostles and even later was not revealed to the general public (the Gospel of John is for initiates only, or at least was back in the day).
>>1099941
Suggesting you are something means you are claiming it, or are you saying Jesus lies?
Go ahead and say that, let's see how that works out for ya.
Btw: "you must have faith".
Faith means trust, not blind belief, you only place your trust in the trustworthy, an obv antichrist whose followers can't do a miracle for shit isn't trustworthy.
>>1099952
>John 14:7 If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves. 12 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
Jesus never said "I am God" like a crazy person would.
>>1091993
This is pasta. I'm sure of it.
>>1099952
John wasn't written until around the 90s and most likely came from a community that got kicked out of a synagogue
>>1099914
The different Gods in the OT were though before they got conflated with Yahweh. Yahweh started out as an Edomite deity and we can't say for sure if his worshippers were monotheistic or not.
This GET says that fedoras shall stop shitposting on this board.
>>1099984
Also, the fact el elyon is used as an alternate title for Yahweh in places throughout the biblical text does not preclude the fact that they were at one point two distinct deities. The identification of the two deities in the text merely shows that the authors (or the more fiercely monotheistic redactors) wanted to conflate the two in order to cover over earlier traditions that pointed to the fact that the early Israelites worshiped El.
I think Deut. 32:8-9 pretty clearly points to two distinct deities, the Most High as the divider of the human race and then Yahweh as the inheritor of Jacob. I'm not sure how you could read this as referring to one deity.
>>1100000
WITNESSED
>>1100000
WITNESSED
>>1100000
Testify
>>1100003
>there can't be more than one word for things
>languages can't evolve
>>1100000
This shall be our dogma.
>>1100019
Read about the archaeology of the ancient levant and the redactive process of the Torah. There's nothing in my post that many scholars would balk at
>>1099914
What about Asherah, the consort of Yahweh?
Wasn't he worshipped "side by side" with other deities before the Exile?
>>1099972
>whoever believes in me will do the works that I do
Put it into practice:
Move a notable mountain from one country to another, so that it is visible and observable.
>>1099972
>whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
Go ahead, put it into practice, go wild here.
>inb4 dubs or shit like that
That's not a miracle per se.
Moving a mountain like I mentioned however...
Oh, and btw.
>“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
“Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'” John 8:58 NASB
“Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28 NASB
Acts 20:28New King James Version (NKJV)
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God[a] which He purchased with His own blood.
Titus 2:13New King James Version (NKJV)
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
-------
>E-every a-apostle l-lied and e-every b-bit of the b-bible lies b-but jesus is t-true
In the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy there's a part where God "vanishes in a puff of logic."
Jews believed in many Gods then reached a point where worshipping Hashem seemed more sensible--be it monotheists at Sinai or henotheists in the Fertile Crescent. At that point there the other gods simply went poof!
There's a story where Maimonides paskens that demons aren't real using scripture as a basis, which contradicts earlier rabanim. The conclusion reached was that Maimonides argument caused demons to suddenly disappear from existence--if it happens with demons, why not gods?
>>1100000
damn so truthful!
>>1100000
It has been declared.
>>1100043
From my discussion last night defenders dismiss their work as merely theoretical
>>1099984
>and most likely came from a community that got kicked out of a synagogue
Complete groundless guessing
>>1100000
DEUS VULT
>>1100246
>Move a notable mountain from one country to another, so that it is visible and observable.
Why?
>>1100266
>E-every a-apostle l-lied and e-every b-bit of the b-bible lies b-but jesus is t-true
Are you like 12?
>all of quotes
And Jesus either isn't the speaker or isn't directly saying "God is I". Since you're quite young you probably can't pick up on subtle approach Jesus uses to tell people he is God without saying it.
>>1100000
****** BTFO
>>1102118
Don't you want people to believe in your god?
Because I believe that although the ancient Semites may not have worshipped him as the Jews today do, he was always the same, like how the name for England changed throughout the years but it has always been England
>>1102688
And the only acceptable proof is moving a mountain?
>>1100246
You need to fast and pray and be humble to a crazy degree before that's something that would happen for you. Only the most dedicated monks would be capable.
>>1091993
MADRE DE DIOS!!!
>>1092140
1 Peter 3:15
>"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"
Kjv.
>>1099970
Can you do miracles?
