So /his/, tell me about the pre roman iberian cultures. they have caught my attention as of lately and i have found the amazing blend of Celtic, native iberian and proto indo european influence on the region's cultures to be severely interesting. Tell me moar plz.
The Gladius came from Celtiberians
>>1079220
Yeah, i know that, hence why it was called the gladius hispaniensis right?
Genetics shows that theres a lot of north african mixed up in there too. They were mostly just tribals like the gallic and celtic tribes to the north, only the Iberians were less accomplished cavalrymen and more formidable with the shortsword.
They were also a royal pain in the ass for the Romans to subdue and conquer.
>>1079435
Most likely because Iberia was an integral part of the trade system of both the Phoenicians and Carthage.
But also because of Arab invasions.
>>1079435
Less accomplished cavalrymen? Didn't the cantabrian circle come from Iberia?
>>1080900
And the Numidians?
>>1080900
The Cantabri were a Celtic tribe from Iberia. I think he's referring to native Iberians.
>>1079435
From were do you get that? Genetics if anything shows than Iberians are predominantly from Paleo-lithic stock, being R1b. Some E is found but in general is nowhere superior to 10% (only in the Canary islands it rose over 20%) and in most parts in the north not even 1%. Heck in lots of parts is more common the Jewish genes because the mass conversion of the sephardies.
About the iberians they mostly lived in cities specially in the south, or fortified towns in the north, with a clientele style of governing being personal, that's why do you have so many switching between sides in the Second Punic wars like the Ilergetes under Indibil and Mandoni,they sweared to one general, and with them they entire houshold and retainers, when the general died they were free of they oaths.
About the quality of the cavalry, the horses of the paeninsula were said to be the most handsome of the west, and you have plenty of anecdotes of how well trained they were be all the ethnics groups of the paeninsula, since Launching nights atacks or waiting kneeling in ambush, or being a kind of taxi and transporting two riders.
About the Celtic parts, that's a great can of worms. The Lusitani, Cantabri, Asturians and other groups didn't seem to speak the same language than the Celt-Iberians of the interior or the galicians tribes (than were the only ones than did have heavy Gaulish influences apart of the North-Eastern iberians in they kit), they were mainly Pre-gauls indo-europeans from an earlier invasion. Also the Turdetanians and they ancestors the Tartesians were in general more civilized than the other Iberian tribes, but were reket hard be Carthago based Barcas.
>>1079207
Well you had a significant Phoenician presence for quite some time as well. They founded a couple of colonies, the most notable being Cadiz around the 9th Century BC with the intention of getting silver from the region.
The Iberians were known to regularly charge and retreat, throwing javelins and shouting at their opponents without actually committing to full contact combat. This sort of fighting was termed concursare by the Romans, all the peoples of the paeninsula used this way of warfare in inter tribals conflicts, night rides with cavalry weren't uncommon, and while battles of full armies were rare they weren't unheard and the mercenary lives of most of them made them adopt tactics of they employes and enemies. The most glaring weakness of all the tribes of iberia tough was they incapability to unite, inter tribal hate and the raiding of weakened rivals made the conquest easier for the Romans ,even then they needed 2 hundred years to stomp the last tribes, the cantabrians and Astures, and even when those were two of the poorest tribes they put kite a fight (it's true than they were considered the best warriors of the paeninsula, the best raiders were the Lusitanian toguh).
This image let's you see differents kinds of Scutums/thureos used in the med. The Iberians in earlier times used caetras (those little buckler-like shields) and bigger ones round or quadrangular, the later were phased out be the thureos. In general the Iberians and celt-Iberians disdained heavy armor, they prefered to be comfy and even helmets tended to have the cheekpices out (not all, specially the upper class used full armor).
>>1081476
Here the Cetra or caetra, the tipical iberians and celtiberian shield for the skirmishers warriors (called caetrati be the romans), the scutarie used the above shields. Both of them were used heavily be the Romans too, Sertorio, Caesar or Pompey in they civil wars.
>>1081293
>From were do you get that? Genetics if anything shows than Iberians are predominantly from Paleo-lithic stock, being R1b. Some E is found but in general is nowhere superior to 10% (only in the Canary islands it rose over 20%) and in most parts in the north not even 1%. Heck in lots of parts is more common the Jewish genes because the mass conversion of the sephardies.
not him but the n. African component comes up in autosomal DNA, especially in Portugal, Y-DNA doesn't mean a lot in this case
also, R1b being paleolithic is kind of a bold claim these days isn't it? neolithic perhaps but even that hypothesis isn't that strong
>>1079207
How far back in time anon?
>>1079435
>They were mostly just tribals like the gallic and celtic tribes to the north, only the Iberians were less accomplished cavalrymen and more formidable with the shortsword.
>They were also a royal pain in the ass for the Romans to subdue and conquer.
So most of what we know has to do with what it was like for other people to fight them?
>>1081496
Some warriors and a noble,probably some of his Devotio. The Devotio were a class of household warriors than sweared to not live after his chief died in terrible oaths than vinculated the Chief, the warrior and the gods. The difference with other swearings like this was than they also sweared to kill or be killed in the next year trying to murder the asassin of they chief. Some of the most famous cases are the siege of Calahorra, were the Sertorian devotios were sieged for a year, and even salted they elders, women and childs to keep fighting. The Devotio was also an institution in different ethnics groups in the paeninsula, it seems universal in the Iberians, and common in the Lusitanian, Asturs, Vasque, Cantabri and some celt-iberian tribes. The Devotio Chief tough wasn't necesarily to be of the same ethnic group, Titus Livius and Plutach tell about Romans generals using it with the natives, and some people believe it was part of the origin of the Imperial cult in the west.
>>1081553
Heck, there the pic.
>>1081512
That's true, these days it seems to change everyday those things.
>>1081528
Yup, we have not first account from them, we don't even understand they language. They had plenty of writings as well (only the iberians used three different alphabets) and the celt-Iberians and lusitanians were less likely to put anything in words than we can find, apart of some bronze pieces than were used to greeting people in they houses.
Iberian settlements were nearly all walled, with solid rock and brick walls and encircled all the town. More defenses and the heads of captured enemies were in general put outside the walls, hills and other easy to defend positions were prefered, orchards and fields outside the walls. Comerce was abundant, specially in the south, with both Greeks and Punics, later Carthaginians. Lots of imports were later adapted, from olives to garum, and made locally in a short span to be traded.
>>1081649
The wealth, granaries, animals and all that was inside the towns tough. The pesky tribal warriors of over the next hill needed to be fast to get them before the locals mounted a counter raid to get the goods backs.
>>1081668
Inter tribal raids and war were endemic, even within the same tribe like the saguntins and the rest of the Edetani were in a feud even when they were of the same tribe. In General those were intermitent and low level, being mainly skirmishes without decisive battles like Greek citites, it was more to protect or get wealth from your neighbors, some times little confederacies were joined and true battles ensued but that wasn't common. Iberians armies were more infantry based than celt-iberian, lusitanian or Northern, than had a riders for every 3 of infantry, the iberians had one for every 4.
>>1081705
Upper class warriors liked to be pimped out, with lots of zoomorphic decorations in they panoply and flashing colours. Punic Purple was specially sought after, the best warriors used tunics edged with it payed be they chiefs.
Here a tipical young noble from the Coast South-East.
>>1081401
>The most glaring weakness of all the tribes of iberia tough was they incapability to unite
Same as today.
>>1081806
Some things never change. Sadly.
Most Based General coming trough.
>>1083364
Hannibal was Phoenician/Carthaginian, not Iberian, though he did get a lot of his best mercenaries and supporting troops/allies from Iberia.
>>1080900
The tactic arose independently in several places.
Bumping I guess.
>>1087937
If you ignore the constant warfare, raids and that stuff it was, Iberian warfare was also more about looting and not geting caugth than killing too, but they had the thing about fighting to the literally last in sieges (Saguntum, Numantia, Calagarris, lot's of little oppida in the cantabrian wars) than is pretty hardcore, like in Numantia and Saguntum burning themselves in pires with all the precious metals so the Romans/carthaginians couldn't use them when they won the siege. IN Calagarris/Calahora was even worst, the warriors killed and salted they families whne they were short of supplies (Oaths of felty were serious business). The Cantabrians and Asturians seemed to prefer death before slavery too, chanting victory hymns in the cross because they died free or simply poisoning themselves with Yew venom,and even when they were made slaves and used in Gallia, to kill they owners and get back to they tribes.
>>1088055
So they had some sort of warrior oath culture a-la samurai?
>>1088256
Yes, but different, the culture of the Iberians and Celtiberians was mainly clientelar, and they had differents kinds of oaths and obligations, the devotio is the most peculiar, an oath binding warriors, chief and gods, the chief gives status, gear and maintains the warriors and "adopts" them in his family, the warriors then sweared to fight for him and die after him and the gods (and society) punished any one than broke the oath. It varied from other oaths of that kind in that they didn't kill themselves until a year has pased, and in that year they had to try to kill the one than was responsable for the death of his chief at any cost, that's why in Calagarris they did all that guresome stuff. The one than had the largest recorded Devotio household was a chief of the Vasque with 6.000, but obviously it was an exception (and probably an exageration).
Portugal to this day identifies with Lusitania and the Lusitanians to the point the prefix for portuguese is luso (line in the word luso-french, for example)
>>1088325
Yup, the Lusitanian extended for a great part of portugal and the Spanish province of Extremadura. They were great riders, but they were known specially for being the greatest raiders of the peninsula. Viritatus was they most famous figure too, from a simple shepherd to great general, surviving the treachery of the Romans he raised an army and curbstomped some legions in the process, until he was assasinated be three of his own allies be order of Rome. The Romans then bribed them then killed the traitors, with the famous Rome doesn't pay traitors. They were an spine under roman controlled territories, tough some Romans generals raided they lands for loot (like Julius Caesar when we was gov in one of the Hispanic provinces).
>>1088370
>One of the Hispanic provinces.
>>1088370
I've heard that the rags to riches story was challenged in academia but I have no idea, I'm just an armchair historian.
>>1088384
It's possible, I'm only another arm-chair historian myself. He was probably a minor noble or even the son of a great tribal leader, it makes more sense because respect and more important warriors and how to maintain them would have been easier with powerful parents to help him, the principals texts I think than say he was a shepherd tough, and being so romanticed be lots of people than prefer the shepherd version,is even harder to get the unbiased true, it also makes a better history I guess.
Do the Basques descend from Pre-Romanized Iberians?
>>1081401
>The most glaring weakness of all the tribes of iberia tough was they incapability to unite, inter tribal hate and the raiding of weakened rivals made the conquest easier for the Romans
I'm going to disagree with you, here. One of the reasons Rome conquered Gaul in such a short period of time was because they cut the head off the snake. When Vercingetorix was subdued, Gaul was subdued.
By contrast, the disunity of Iberian peoples made the peninsula a bitch to conquer. There was no central leadership to defeat or bribe, they had to conquer each people individually. Unlike Gaul, it took the Romans 200 years to get a hold of Iberia.
That said, the fact that there was so much factionalism meant that the Romans could essentially rely on Iberian mercenaries to do a good portion of the legwork.
>>1088510
Bump
Did the Turdetani control a city named Arse in the eastern Iberian coast?
Just sounds hilarious if the Turdetani 'issued' from Arse
>>1089169
Iberians as tribe? No, they come from Vascones who were related to the Aquitanians.
>>1090458
Aquitanians seemed to be more related to Iberians than other people too. But I really don't know shit about them, they don't seem to get any spot in wargames.
It always feels good to be a portuguese just for the fact that you are lusitanian.
But on topic:Everyone from early was taught on how to throw a javelin,for real we even had a god of javelins.
The romans were scared of them,they were not your normal wood body with lead on the end,this was made with pure Iberian iron that thing would get throught your shield really fucking easly if you didn't angle it right.
Oh and then the second thing they hated about us must have been our guerilla fighting style.
We mostly used light armor althought it is known that we used some kind of padded coif in our heads.
>>1093181
>we
>our
>>1093204
They their
Ya bloody twat
How did clan/tribe politics work for the Iberians and Celtiberians? Was it a dynastic thing or was it elective like other tribes of the time?
>>1088510
Yes.
>>1093725
It depended from Tribe to tribe. The Iberians, specially in the south had a very stratified society, Royal families and nobles(horses seemed a very important part of that class)had a retinue of clientele formed be all the other castes,priest caste (there the women had a lot more power than in all the others, they were the link between death and life etc, tough male priest were as common) were outside but respected be everyone, full time warriors, Merchants, Artisans, peasants (with or without land) gave binding oaths to they tribal leaders, Slaves existed but it didn't seem to be a permanent institution.
The Problem is than every tribe was a world, ones had less classes, others were ruled be a dinastic king (earlier Priest-Kings, later heroic descending Kings), other for dinastic or elected(be the other military aritocrats) kings in peace and elected king in war, others be council of elders than elected a warchief in times of war etc. That without counting Celt-Iberians, Lusitanians or the Northern tribes, the romans didn't delve deep in any tribe so we only have the best efforts of the underfunded archeology to know more. And that's without counting the fealty oaths than linked everyone, inter tribal loyalties were common, great men could have households with warriors from all the nearby or far tribes looking for statues and riches, heck Sertorius, Pompey and Caesar used that to amass local armies, like the Carthaginians before them.
>>1089190
Nah, that was an Oppida of the Edetani, one of the first places in the peninsula to issue coin tough.
>Tfw no oen to raid legally those days.
>>1079207
The hispaniensis is such a cutie.
>>1100031
10/10 would definately raid villages and plunder some comfy seaside fortresses with.
