let's talk about this
it is honestly the most remarkable archaeological find in my opinion
here is what we know
>megalithic structure, built around 9 500 BC
>older than Stonehenge by 6 000 years
>bigger and more impressive than Stonehenge
>built by hunter-gatherers
>I'll repeat: built by hunter-gatherers
>built before agriculture, before writing, before the wheel
>deliberately buried and left around 8 000 BC
so what do you think?
people think it's spoopy because it was deliberately abandoned and buried
but I think it was the proto-Sumerians who left it when they developed agriculture in the Syrian area
I don't remember the site, but there is a village south of Göbekli Tepe where the earliest evidence of grain cultivation is found
>>built by hunter-gatherers
>>I'll repeat: built by hunter-gatherers
>>built before agriculture, before writing, before the wheel
I highly doubt these
>>1076350
Why wouldn't hunter gatherers do such a thing?
We don't give early humans enough credit. I know it sounds ignorant, but it really is just some carved rocks.
There's probably a lot more which has been lost or eroded away.
>>1076370
look into it, senpai
they have found tons of traces of humans around there
including tools and weapons
but ONLY pre-agricultural tools
that's another thing
this find challenges the conception that we need a cohesion through civilization before temples can be built
>>1076370
It's actually true, surprising as it seems. Certain hunter-gatherer societies living in extremely productive environments can achieve fairly high degrees of social complexity. In the Levant during the centuries before agriculture emerged, the post-glacial warming of the climate caused the widespread growth of wild cereals throughout the region. People exploited these cereals which were so abundant that they didn't even need to move around anymore and settled in permanent or semi-permanent villages. They could then store food and their population grew fairly fast, which put more pressure on them to deliberately encourage the growth of cereals, leading eventually to agriculture (that's a simplification of a more complex process though). Gobekli Tepe was built around the time that cultivation was beginning but gathering wild grains was still the norm (the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A).
Societies like that are rare, but there are other examples like the Pacific Northwest Native Americans, most notably the Haida, who had large villages, complex art, institutionalized inequality (including slavery), and a chiefdom level of social complexity despite a diet consisting mostly of wild fish and berries.
It's also worth considering the complexity of Paleolithic European painting and sculpture, or Jomon pottery, but as far as I know neither of these societies were sedentary (though they were fairly prosperous).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
http://archaeology.about.com/od/cterms/a/Complex-Hunter-Gatherers.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Pacific_Northwest_Coast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haida_people
Also before anyone says it, despite the importance and impressiveness of Gobekli Tepe, it has not revolutionized our understanding or prehistory or religion or anything like that as a lot of sensationalist articles claim.
It's also not the only example of this in the region, though it is the oldest and other examples come from later in the PPNA when cultivation was more well established (as opposed to Gobekli Tepe which was built near the start of the period).
Nevali Cori comes from the same tradition a thousand years later.
>>1076350
The fuck? Literally the first children of Adam and Eve were planting crops.
What do they teach kids in schools these days?
>>1076532
Not that retarded shit you just implied, thats for damn sure.
>>1076577
Almost as retarded as biting basic bait
Talking about an ancient civilization, before the sumerians is talking about aliens?
They could perfectly be the famous annunakis, after a couple of milleniums the tales about them would be wildly exagerated.
Also who covered the ruins and why?
The same culture or a later establishment of humans?
Bamp
>>1076350
>older than Stonehenge by 6 000 years
yeah and?
a lot of structures in Europe are older than Stonehenge
>>1076507
>wikipedia
>not revolutionized our understanding or prehistory
i would recommend you to watch the documentary made about gobeklitepe. it is well done.
>>1077810
>wikipedia
Yeah, some articles about some of the stuff I was talking about. If you want something better then here;
>http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/authors37/37_21.pdf
>http://web.pdx.edu/~amesk/pdfs/Ames_NWC_ANREV.pdf
>not revolutionized our understanding or prehistory
Are you pointing out a typo, or do you think it actually has?
Pre-ancient civilization who utilized rock based technology and eventually were wiped out.
The proof is all around us today, but because our civilization progressed in a different way we simply don't understand how to utilize the innovative properties of rock.
It's ignorant to assume all cultures will follow the same paths to innovation.
>>1078911
You might want to see a doctor about that advanced retardation
>>1078914
*tips autism*
>>1078911
>rock based technology
not this again
>>1078911
oh boy the retarded rockfag is back. You the same idiot claiming that ancient civilizations were creating megalithic structures out of rock-based polymers?
>>1077988
Not him but this seems pretty revolutionary, seems a lot like the vast majority of archaeologists haven't fully digested its significance yet and are sort of in denial.
>>1078911
>>1078911
is this going to be /his/'s first big it's gonna be may may?
>>1078989
rock based technology can be a solid stepping stone for rolling advancement
>>1078953
>this seems pretty revolutionary
It really isn't. All it tells us is that the PPNA proto-farmers had a somewhat organized society.
I've seen articles claiming that this has revolutionized the view that religion only emerges after urbanism, as if we don't already have countless examples of Neolithic religious structures. This just happens to be the oldest.
>>1076350
>deliberately buried and left around 8 000 BC
That's because of the Flood.
I'm not saying it was ancient ayylmaos, but........
>>1080301
The Flood. It was the Flood.
>>1078938
the megalithic polygonal structures in southern america have been shown that they were heated up enough to destroy the micro fossils in them. They also lack tool marks.
>>1080432
They lack tool marks because they were made by african americans, african americans didn't invent tools until they've had to make a rocket to reach the moon.
>>1080432
you take a rock with a hardness equal or greater to the rock you are working with, you start bashing it until the needed form is made, then you smoother the surface with grinding
I am not saying the structures like that are mindbogglingly impressive but they were well withing the human capabilities of the time
>>1076507
A genuinely good post, son. Uh, dad.
>>1080432
Weren't there half-finished rocks literally lying around all over the place ? Some more rough than others but clearly showing marks of workmanship of the bashing kind not 》rock technology of the finnic empire
The way I see it, these communities would have had far less stress in day to day life than we do today. When not stressed, and living communally, humans can get a remarkable amount of tasks done.
I figure the majority of today's disbelief and doubt in regard to these ancient finds is to do with our current disenchantment with the human condition. We are currently, generally speaking, self destructive and really quite shit to one another - example being US Gov (not attacking, just observing) and that makes it difficult for humanity to have any form of insight.
I put forward that these finds are hugely important in teaching up ways of living that have been forgotten about, and they aren't to be postulated and pontificated about - rather learned from and considered.
>>1080498
To put it simply; people spend too much time working and not enough creating now.
>>1080635
that's all changing now. more and more people are entering the ranks of the ascended autists creating dank memes on imageboards
we are truly entering a golden age
>>1078938
I was that idiot.
I'm glad that someone liked it, because it's really interesting.
Obviously there's a lot of lost technology in human records.
>>1080432
A couple of things that don't add up with this walls.
To carve them and pile them up you need a lot of leverage, and big trunks, and this are build at an altitude were big enough trees don't grow.
The shape, so by the carving theory they make one, then carved the next one in the specific shape to fit with the next one?
Sounds time consuming to say the least.
The rocks are huge and the mining of said rocks, would be an even bigger and more implausible project than building the wall.
In the subject of Göbekli Tepe.
We need to reconsider what an advanced civilization really is, to give it his proper place in history.
>inb4 go back to /x/
I'm in there discussing the possibility of our universe beign a numerical simulation.
See you soon.
>>1083932
I'll just say, thank you for posting these things. I know there is much more to be known about these structures and others in the world too.
>>1076383
>but ONLY pre-agricultural tools
That doesn't mean they're hunter gatherers.
>>1080492
>>1080868
>>1076507
Doesn't that BTFO Marxism?
I mean, the whole basis of the materialist conception of history is that the material conditions of a society's mode of production determines its organisation and development.
But Gobekli Tepe shows that class polarization and even religious behavior can appear even when there is no material basis for it.
>>1083955
Elaborate.
If they didn't cultivate nor gather their foodstuffs then they did what, conjure it magically?
>>1083932
>I was that idiot
Yes.
How can leverage be less complicated than melting minerals and rock-casting? I mean, how can you demand that 'they need to be afforded proper respect' and then imply that 'they couldn't have possibly piled rocks' in the same sentence.
>>1084023
>less
Meant more obv
>>1084005
>>>1084000 (You) explained here >>1076507
I'm sorry, English isn't my first language, but I can't see anything there which would imply that they were not pre-agricultural hunters-gatherers. One of the more rare instances of settled h&g with access to wild cereal and on the transition towards proper cultivation, but h&g non the less. There aren't that many options for getting food: agriculture or h&g. Unless I've failed to grasp something essential.
Plz extrapolate, i just want to know
>>1084023
You don't have to melt the minerals, just smash them into powder.
The proper respect part refers to the fact that a task that could have consumed to much time, could have been achieved in a simpler more practical manner, if we accept that they were capable of making cement.
If you never carved a rock or a piece of wood, I can tell you that a rock of that size and with the specific shape is the equivalent of making a greek statue.
And you are telling me that they mined the rocks, went down the hill crossed the valley and moved the rocks uphill and placed them several feets in the air.
Instead of just making something that wasn't outside of their capacities.
Geo polymers make more sense to me, that's all.
>>1084069
A panoramic pic for reference.
>>1084063
For the sake of the argument I will consider only the tools found near the site, wich are very basic but still capable of agriculture.
the problem is the amount of people that the alleged civilization had.
If you don't have that many people you can sustain them with hunter and gathering and the conditions could have been favorable enough.
But what the ruins suggest is a bigger more complicated settlement.
Wich makes no sense.
>>1084000
Any number of possibilities, Horticulture, fishing, pastoralism, etc.
>>1084132
My bad then. I just assumed those to have already been included in either agriculture or hunting-gathering. Must be a translation thing.
Probably plenty of things like this are just submerged. 10K years ago the sea level was still way down compared to the present (incomplete glacial melt plus isostatic rebound effect). Roughly one hundred and fifty feet lower at that time. That's a lot of buried coastal cities or temples or who knows what.
>>1084000
They were hunter-gatherers, but not the kind we usually imagine. They didn't move around in bands and live in camps or anything like that, though they didn't live in completely permanent villages either. I've seen them called Semi-Sedentary Foragers. They mostly gathered wild cereals for food as well as hunting for meat and probably experimenting with domestication both of animals like cattle and wild cereals. There's still a lot of debate about how this gave way to agriculture though.
http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/paleomagnetism-study-supports-pyramid-geopolymer-stone-2/
The aim of paleomagnetic investigation of the rock material of the great Egyptian pyramids, Khufu and Khafre, was to find out the directions of the magnetic polarization vectors of their building blocks. This is one of the possible ways to verify the hypothesis according to which the blocks were produced in situ by a concrete technique. The analysis of a limited set of paleomagnetic samples provided the following results. The paleodirections of three sampling locations (2 from Khafre and 1 from Khufu pyramid) exhibit the common north-south orientation, suggesting that they may have been produced in situ by a concrete technique
>>1084492
I truly don't know, how advanced can artificial rock formation be?
This one of the strangest but at the same time more fascinating point of the theory after 12.000 years, would our modern concrete be considered a natural formation?
A mixture of sand, water and aggregates can occur naturally, meaning that nature makes their own geo polymers.
http://www.geopolymer.org/science/examples-geopolymer-frameworks/
After dehydroxylation (and dehydration), generally above 250°C, geopolymers are becoming more and more crystalline and above 500°C have X-rays diffraction patterns and framework structures identical to their geological analogues.
It's open to discussion.
>>1084534
It was a trick question. The answer is yes and you are an idiot for not even considering answers to the simplest most straightforward questions before throwing around wild assumptions.
>>1084656
The answer is not yes.
To our current methodology the rocks can seem identical to a natural one.
That's why I posted the magnetic polarization method, but that's also inconclusive.
It's not a wild assumption if a post proper sources.
Not everybody is desperate to reach a definitive conclussion, the best answer is not always yes or no.
>>1076350
>built by hunter-gatherers
>I'll repeat: built by hunter-gatherers
>built before agriculture, before writing, before the wheel
>deliberately buried and left around 8 000 BC
>>1076372
>We don't give early humans enough credit.
True, richfags with talented engineers which understand primitive pulleys and polishing is usually enough for the most impressive of structures.
>Why wouldn't hunter gatherers do such a thing?
Because huge-ass structures are a bit antithetical to the HG way of life.
fun fact: brain size and IQ is declining, and has been declining since the upper paleolithic
they didn't have our body of knowledge, the scientific method, technologies etc
but we should acknowledge the fact that they were on average much more intelligent that us
and their geniuses might have had 200+ in IQ
that's why engineering marvels like Gobekli Tepe, the Pyramids etc seemed so strange, even in the Iron Age
I think Plato describe Mycene temples as "Cyclopian design" because they couldn't imagine humans making it
>>1087091
Gonna need a source to your bald statement
>>1087091
Humans are actually becoming more intelligent on average.
THAT BEING SAID
We have a tremendous problem with nutrition on a global scale. President of the World Bank did an interview recently said that it was the current largest barrier to human advancement. If you aren't raised and fed the right things in the first several months of your life, your overall intelligence gets severely impacted and you lose capability for a lot of things. Hunter gatherers probably has less of an issue because they could spend all day getting the correct kinds of food, while after the development of agriculture humans started to eat whatever they could afford.
>so what do you think?
I think that whole human history BC is total bullshit since they still teach kids in school that Mesopotamians were first real civilization when there are discoveries like this. Also who knows how many civilizations were there that we didn't find out existed nor we ever will. They should just rewrite whole history instead of building existing(shitty) one with new findings.
>>1087091
>I think Plato describe Mycene temples as "Cyclopian design"
What? Mycenean temples were just simple megaron temples and similar temples can be found in the rest of the Mediterranean too during the bronze age., Classical Greek temples are much more monumental structures than Myceneans temples, what was described as Cyclopean was mostly the walls because of the large stones used to build them.
>>1087932
Cyclopean stones you said?
>>1076350
To the retards gong BUT HOW DID THEY BUILD IT?
Key word they had alot of times a man could build a city with own hands in 1000 years and thats just one man, so a group of humans can accomphish amazing feats of stone engineering in a large timescales.
>>1076350
It is an offence to Christ and must be destroyed as all other paganry should be. Deus Vult
>>1090466
Is this next on your list?
>>1090423
That's not Mycenean
>>1087429
Rewrite according to what? If we haven't found these supposed ancient civilizations, there's nothing to write about.
>>1090466
Ave maria brother
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r7eNvrTQJM
>>1083983
>Doesn't that BTFO Marxism?
There's a reason there are so many Marxist or quasi-Marxist anthropologists, you know.
>>1084534
Do you have a source about ancient geopolymers that isn't geopolymer.org?
As an ethnobotanist I just want to say that some of you people are absolute retards.
They were pro to agricultural in the sense that CULTIGENS plants found only in domesticated agricultural settings had not fully developed yet. That means that the precusors did, they harvested and likely sowed seeds and performed light tillage and/or utilized fire to produce stable grain/root harvests LIKE ALL MEDITERRANEAN CLIMATES AROUND THE WORLD.
Agriculture's start is TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF PLANT EXPLOTATION THAT CREATED CONDITIONS FOR THE DISPERSAL OF SEEDS FROM NON-SHATTERING MUTANTS.
IT DID NOT JUST HAPPEN 10K YEARS AGO.
>>1091263
no one has said that they didn't use plants to sustain themselves along with their hunting and foraging
OP even said that there are evidence of planting proto-agricultural areas in nearby villages in Syria and Anatolia
AND WRITING IN ALL CAPS JUST MAKES YOU SOUND LIKE A 12 YEAR OLD BOY
not a professional
the point is: this is a megalithic structure built before civilization proper
Sumer didn't develop writing, the wheel, true agriculture with irrigation etc until WAY later
it's still an amazing feat that they organized this in 9500 bc
>>1091263
>MEDITERRANEAN CLIMATES AROUND THE WORLD
>>1091144
>anthropologists
propagandists pretending to be anthropologists.
>>1091132
If it's come to this, let us post more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzo4LPR46k
>>1090738
No it's not is Baalbek I just like that picture, this is mycenean.
>>1091157
http://www.zeobond.com/
http://www.rilem.org/gene/main.php?base=600025
>>1091688
Yes and it's not a temple, it's just walls, as I said Mycenean temples aren't impressive at all in factalmost nothing remains of them but the foundations.
>>1091949
You are hard to impress.
On a side note why everything always have to be a temple?
Every building they found is a temple, like Göbekli Tepe, they know nothing about the culture that did it, but is big and impressive so it has to be a temple.
Maybe they liked to make big buildings and make pictures for secular reasons.
I will never understand why they catalogue Animism as a religion, it's a belief, and not even a dumb one. organized religion gets dumber.
>>1092378
You mentioned temple, I stated that's an error.
Anyway that's not true, archeologists don't classify every single ancient building as a temple, I don't kow where you got that from.
>>1092427
They do if they don't have a temple already.
Many buildings have been classified as temples first and remain temples until someone finds out what they really where.
Closer example I have, are south american buildings, spaniards destroyed many buildings, because they were considered places of pagan worship.
But that was probably the spaniards wanting to destroy shit.
Like this guys>>1091132
One of the things we need, is a secular history, any description of an ancient culture is:
>Those were .... they lived in ... between the years .... they worshiped ....
And the bastards were probably more irreligious than us.
It's important in the case of Göbekli Tepe, because if someone decides to say that they worshiped something, ISIS is going to blow the site.
>>1077746
Yes, but not many by 6000 years
Oldest in France is pic related, some 6700 years old, and it's one of the oldest in Europe too. It's old as fuck, but it's not Gobekli Tepe old
>>1083983
>But Gobekli Tepe shows that class polarization and even religious behavior can appear even when there is no material basis for it.
Go back to /pol/. That post explained the material basis, yet you are too stupid to see it.
>conventional archaeologist getting BTFO with places such as Gudan Padang and Gobekli Tepe and who knows what else we will find in the future
>people like Randall Carlson and their theories of how the last ice age ended because of a meteorite are becoming more accepted and the evidence is literally undeniable
>mfw all this denial
tfw ISIS will destroy all this
>>1098024
it's still close to the Syrian-Turkey border
>>1090466
>Ambrose did nothing wrong
>>1077820
Sauce por favor?
>>1095523
why is it that accepting, for example, the theoretical existance of extraterestrial life is ok, theres even a whole seti program trying to listen on them, but thinking that we might have not yet dug up and catalouged every inch of earth and sea so there might be more crap out there, older than is known today, is crazy and against all established scientific knowledge?
>before the wheel
So...they rolled the wheels away when they were done?
Is every dig site "before the wheel" because they didn't bury a ton of perfectly good wheels in a pit?
>>1098629
Because it would have to literally rewrite the whole history and by doing that many ideologies, propaganda, agendas and even religion.
This would directly affect the global economy on many ways and even maybe making money "useless" on a long term thus making it really hard to controll the masses as they have been doing it for a long time.
>inb4 conspiracy
>inb4 /pol/
>>1083983
Marxism is fucking stupid. Beginning and end of argument.
>>1098599
you can watch the documentary here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjl3czhIDr8
there is also kind of a commentary and answers from director but it is only in turkish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88vFUukH2-o
i'll be leaving director's name here since i think that he has done a really good job overall. it is Ahmet Turgut Yazman
>>1080868
this inspired me just a little.
>>1083983
No. Well, according to cannon, no. In the preface of the 4th edition (English translation) of the Manifesto Engels added "written" into the sentence.
Meaning the sentence is now: The [written] history of all hitherto existing society† is the history of class struggles. Marx wrote a lot of shit about society before capitalism in his later years and following Marxists (Luxemburg) tried to elaborate on that.
>>1083983
Will the world please stop regarding Marxist theory and accepting the million varieties of socialism as a legitimate ideology and see it for what it is: a half-baked idea transformed into a dogamtic impetus to trade one despotism for another. Really in execution no different than theocracy, monarchism, or fascism.
>>1091413
He's not wrong.
>>1102417
What would a mediterrean climate allow in terms of civilization developmentP
>>1104408
One of the main aspects is that species from one Mediterranean region are often successful in the other similar climates, so he European species brought by colonials were pre-adapted to these climates (see wine producing regions).
>>1104419
That gives you a territory to expand and repeat succesful farming techniques.
The basic tool to develop a civilization.
