What /his/ opinion on the Ottoman Turks?
they can't handle good bants
Kebab removed
>>1073531
One of the gayest races to ever walk the earth. The male equivalent of belly dancers were always more popular than the female ones, mostly because they would put out for the sultans.
I have no idea how they managed to propagate themselves given how fixated they were on fucking each other in the ass.
On a different note; why is it that the only noteworthy Muslim peoples/nations have always been non-Arabs.
>Muslim Golden Age scholars
Iranians
>Greatest Muslim power
Turks
>Most culturally advanced
Iberians
Arabization a shit though.
![Reception_ceremony_of_the_Conte_de_Saint_Priest_at_the_Ottoman_Porte_Antoine_de_Favray_1767[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/lyTvkQT.jpg "Reception_ceremony_of_the_Conte_de_Saint_Priest_at_the_Ottoman_Porte_Antoine_de_Favray_1767[1].jpg")
>>1073531
One of the most significant nations of the past, a remarkable account of the Western world meeting the East. Fantastically rich history and a major and awesome civilization.
That's if you look at it seriously and put aside the memes and racist European sentiments.
>>1073940
>Fantastically rich history
>>1073940
>racist European sentiments
It's not really all that racist to not like invaders, slavers and genociders, m8...
>>1073945
>frogposting
See, you didn't put aside the meme.
Or the racist sentiment I would assume.
>>1073946
So why do you get butthurt whenever somebody hates white people?
>>1073948
What was rich about their culture?
>Or the racist sentiment I would assume.
Ah, you complain of memes but spew this sort of desperation.
>>1073950
>So why do you get butthurt whenever somebody hates white people?
I do?
>>1073531
Suleiman was pretty awesome dude.
>>1073966
>This is 800 years of history, and you have to be pretty childish to assert that nothing significant occurred before, during and after that time period.
Never asserted anything like that. Can you provide specifics, or is blanket generalization your final form of sophism senpai?
>What civilization doesn't have dark periods in its past?
Did this one even have any light ones?
prove me wrong
protip: you can't
ive reed that after the revolution the socialists burned all the documents left by the ottomans. Most documentation about the ottomans is from western perspective, mainly french. I reed this a long time ago, so might be lying.
Any Turks here? What are your thoughts about the Ottomans? Shamefull or proud? Are you guys even allowed to glorify the Ottomans in Turkey what with all the Ataturk stuff and secularization?
More importantly, how much damage did the Ottomans do to modern Turkey as far as relationships between them and Europe and trying to get into the EU? I only know of the Armenian genocide being a block.
>>1073996
Turk here, my thoughts?
>WE WUZ
Honestly, I dont know much about ottomans, and I feel like theres not that much info anywhere. The ottomans fucked up with the thought of "WE WUUZ" and didnt go to america to conquer like the western world did.
I would argue that "secularization" forced by the state caused more harm than benefits, the "westernization" caused good things but caused alot of suffer to people that dont "agree" with the state vision. Now its pretty polarized in both "sides", it used to be only secular oppression by government, now with AKP in rule the country has become more "liberal" in that sense that both sides get to participate in the society and not one side being oppressed.
Turkey has until very recently been very poor and backwards but its slowly changing, people whining today dont know how it was before 21th century, the politicans was very corrupt and didnt try to "better" the country, it was a country with a system made for industrilazed countries but with no industry(western type of industry). Most people were still farmers and lived in small villages.
I believe Turkey has a bright future, if you think Erdogan is bad, you dont know how it was before, the political elite and core was and still is corrupt, but not as much as it used to,Erdogan is trying to get rid of all the corruption inside politics to create a real "democratic" system. Erdogan won by getting the support of Gulen, which is a religious kind of mafia that used to have incredible amount of power in media and politics, Gulen was the force that made CHP(socialist ataturk party) leader to leave his post by leaking scandals about him.
Erdogan is doing very undemocratic things, its true. but his government is fighting corrupt leaders and politicans that characterizes most of mediterranian politics.
Turkey has always been self hating, and its still strong within the left wing, but its changing.
This just my general understanding of turkey today.
4chan meme says they suck so I agree
>>1073531
All I know is they genocided somewhere between 1 and 2 million Armenian Christians about 100 years ago, but nobody cares because they were Christian and not Jewish
>>1074091
Nobody cares becouse nobody knows where Armenia is. But everybody knows at least one jew.
>>1073531
Source of butt hurt for many folk. This thread being the living proof of it.
>>1073983
The belly dance
Spurred the invention of cockroach exterminates
Being a part of one of the ethnicities they genocided (Assyrian), even I'm not butthurt about the Ottomans.
op please never ever post that again on /his/ my rectum hurts just reading this thread
>>1073946
>invaders, slavers and genociders
every imperialist power ever?
Pretty interesting military history
>>1074324
Difference being westerns are cucks about their own imperialism.
OP just wants to stir the pot. The stew is thick, the butthurt has never been so real
>>1073969
Nigger the ottomans rekt everything on their path till the 1600's ,they had a great cuisine which is still visible in modern turkish cuisine, poetry was very big and respected and they allowed people to live according to their faith when europeans were murdering heretics left and right.
>>1074337
why cant we discuss the ottomans without some butthurt greeks/armenians/balkans/kurd/arabs/diaspora shitting all over the thread? its been more than a hundred years already let it go
>>1073969
>most accurate map ever drawn without modern mean
>person who drew it probably took his education in Ottoman medrese(university)
>>1074342
Nationalism everyone!
If you cant claim it, throw shit at it!
>>1074352
He is right though everytime something about turks gets posted here everyone explodes in autistic rage.
>>1074330
except that the westerners on /his/ are all about justifying that, only libs are cucks about it.
i think white guilt is stupid but hating on turks for literally doing same shit as brits, spainards, romans etc, is hypocrite as fuck
>>1074342
You're asking the wrong anon. I go back and forth between finding it hilarious and irritating as all hell. Depends how tired I am.
>>1074355
thats what i am saying m8, if Ottomans were christian ,part of European culture and did the exact same thing, they would be loved to death
because people could superfically relate with them
>>1074377
What I don't undersand is why the balkans are so butthurt about the ottoman empire when they were one of the biggest groups which fueled the empire. I mean even foreign ambassadors say that the most spoken language by the jannisaries was fucking serbian.
>>1074006
>Are you guys even allowed to glorify the Ottomans in Turkey
only the early parts and the height of Ottomans are glorified
literally most popular tv show in Turkey is the romanticized life story of "Suleiman the Magnificent"
and the newest most popular tv show is glorified life story of "Ertuğrul", father of Osman who founded the dynasty.
>Ataturk stuff and secularization
some people hate on Atatürk because he wasnt muslim enough but %90 still loves him.
State propaganda about Atatürk in schools is really strong. Turkis people basically think Atatürk as what Americans see their founding fathers.
>how much damage did the Ottomans do to modern Turkey about Eu relations
a lot, i would say, we are still the boogeyman of the eurome
>Shamefull or proud?
there are some people who literally hate the guts of Ottomans, those are generally atheist community or hardcore nationalists(we wus nomads ans shit)
but generally people dont hate and we learn all about them in school anyway
at their height they were pretty cool
they had a long lingering death as an empire though
>>1074386
nearly all of the "baş sadrazm" (grand vizer) were devsirme from balkans, they were the right hand of the emperor and second in command, there are even times where they were more influentual and powerful than the emperor while Turks were either soldiers or peasants.
Albanians seem to be especially popular.
>inb4 WE WUZ KINGS AND SHIT
Buncha cunts
>>1073946
Like every civilization in history?
>>1073969
Go back to /pol/. You're clearly too much of a dumbass to be here.
>>1073531
It was an awesome Empire at it's peak (16th and early 17th century). It earned it's reputation as Europe's sick man though. Also, the whole Armenian genocide is still shameful considering Turkey still refuses to acknowledge that it happened.
>>1073899
>On a different note; why is it that the only noteworthy Muslim peoples/nations have always been non-Arabs.
You seem to forget who ran the governments that enabled the Muzzie Golden Age.
Or you know, the guys who founded the religion.
>THE CRUSADES WERE AWESOME, I LOVE THE IDEA OF MY RELIGION BEING SPREAD FORCEFULLY
>THE FUCKING TURKS PUSHING THEIR FUCKING ISLAM ONLY BACKWARDS SAVAGES WOULD DO THAT
>JAPAN IS SUCH AN AWESOME COUNTRY I LOVE HOW THEY DONT GIVE TWO FUCKS AND DENY WARCRIMES
>FUCKING TURKSMELLS DENYING THE ATROCIOUS WAR CRIMES THEY COMMITTED AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE ONLY TURKS WOULD DO THIS
they were pretty cool OP
Anything that pisses of /int/ is great in my book
>>1073945
Just because you're ignorant of their history doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
>>1075696
>pisses of /int/
Nothing pisses off /int/.
>>1074006
>Shamefull or proud?
The last 200 years were absolute shit tier which shamefull loss after shamefull loss.
>Are you guys even allowed to glorify the Ottomans in Turkey what with all the Ataturk stuff and secularization?
if you would say 20 years ago you want to bring the ottoman empire back turkish cia would pick you up and imprison you for 20 years
with erdogan everything changed
>More importantly, how much damage did the Ottomans do to modern Turkey as far as relationships between them and Europe and trying to get into the EU?
its in the past, if it does any harm or not i dont care, fuck the eu anyway
>>1074339
>durr good food
And no proof whatever that their poetry is good
>>1076330
What about Easter?
>>1075554
The best Abbassid Caliph was half-Persian.
I love turks because they kill kurd dogs
![turkishcavalryxviictave[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/U4LR4KC.jpg "turkishcavalryxviictave[1].jpg")
>>1073531
They had badass military music
>implying you wouldn't march to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWyTTa_IkzY
>>1073899
>implying Damascus and Egypt weren't relevant to Islamic Scholarship
Lmaoing at ur life viper
Kinda impressed that an obscure tribe became a major power whose dynasty lasted for more than 600 years. Osman's life is something straight out of a D&D campaign.
![Gentile_Bellini_003[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/aBi4nfN.jpg "Gentile_Bellini_003[1].jpg")
I find the early humble beginnings of the Empire quite interesting. There are many gems there especially the times when Ottomans ally with Byzantines against other forces. One spectacular story is when the Princes of both dynasties team up to overthrow their own Emperor fathers and create a new system yet they both get fucked in the end.
Then there is the Renaissance era. After the conquest of the Constantinople, Ottomans are arguably the single most powerful force in the world during that era. Mehmed II is a classical sophisticated enlightened ruler of the time period. He called himself Caesar of Rome and invaded Italy with the intention of conquering also the original Rome and uniting the old empire. It's suggested that he was poisoned by his Venetian doctor. He had the disease of gout and we know that he loved sea food so much that he ate fish or octopus every day.
Also he created the Armenian patriarchy too which still literally exists and is the main head of the Armenian church. Ironic if you think about the Armenian genocide discussions.
The funny part is for the Ottomans Balkans was the heartland of the country NOT anatolia. Then suddenly they were left with the backwater rural lands filled with no infrastructure and peasants. It's a miracle for the Turks that a person like Mustafa Kemal was born at that time to save their ass and carry them to the modern age.
All in all interesting country for sure. For further reading I would suggest Halil İnalcık's books on the Ottoman Empire. Google them.
>>1073531
The first 10 sultans were fucking brilliant. The rest were pretty damn dreadful with the very occasional exception.
>>1077525
What the fuck is wrong with his lower face?
>>1077633
weak chin, grew a beard to cover it up
>>1077646
How inbred do you have to be?
>>1077669
The Ottoman sultans were of mixed blood. Their Turkic ancestry was diluted thanks to intermarriage with Greeks, Serbians, Italians, Circassians, and other groups.
Interestingly enough, Suleiman the Magnificent had Genghisid blood from his mother, a daughter of the Crimean Khan.
/pol/tards and europa universalis players talk shit, but any one of them would rather be a turkish sultan fucking slav girls in the harem than any other person in all history
>>1077149
Can you imagine defending a city while an army marching to this is coming your way?
What a feeling that must have been.
>>1077691
id be one of those slav girls
>>1077676
Bayezid I and Mehmed I weren't all that great in my opinion. I give a lot of props to Murad II for being able to deal with multiple enemies that wanted to break-up the empire.
And Bayezid II was a surprisingly peaceful man compared to his predecessors and successors. Not to mention how he welcomed the Jews of Spain into his domains.
>>1077516
It's sad that at the same time Osman was laying the foundations for Turkish domination over the Byzantines, the Muslims of Spain were on the retreat. It's eerie how many parallels there are between Iberia and Anatolia; eventually culminating in the conquest of Granada into Christian Spain and the takeover of Constantinople by the Ottomans in the 15th century.
>>1077149
lol I kinda like the civ 5 rendition of this tune
its sounds so ominous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AB0k4Itneg
They still haven't payed for Armenia, it's time to make them
>>1077149
Posting another based one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmjtZLbYnNE
>>1073531
Sick man of Europe
>>1074355
This, and its very fucking annoying.
![maxresdefault[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Pkb8x4e.jpg "maxresdefault[1].jpg")
>>1078016
>>1077149
Since we're on the topic of Ottoman music, while their military marches are catchy, I've found Ottoman classical music pleasant to listen to as well. Such an interesting, unique and foreign style. I especially love the percussion and the violin in some of these.
Give this a listen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah8BVfoOD-I
Some other good ones I've found
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPTg_H_rP5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy7_MgNaoY8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MN4DN06xc8
>>1077516
The Ottoman dynasty's last 150 years was about the same way the Byzantime Empire "lasted" from 1300.
>>1078104
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MN4DN06xc8
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPTg_H_rP5E
These are pretty sweet jams desu
>>1078104
>that european looking dude peaking in
lmao wtf
thats how I feel right now listening to these
>>1078104
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFPyO_BAK-I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-GMa-MMuIs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqw4t3aCv8A
Composer/Collector is a Vlach but the style is Ottoman
They would have been cool if they stayed in Anatolia
>>1073531
>mfw the middle east was fine and peaceful with the ottomans
>>1077525
>Venetian doctor
were Venetian the jews of their time, everything from that period from there seems like Jewish Israeli schemes.
>>1074356
but the governments of the westerns countries are cucked and force their cuckery upon other countries. Its pure political game, ottomans buttfucked people in its borders and long time ago and those peoples ottomans conqured are actually conqured by france/england. e.g middle east, greece etc. The brits gave guns to people to fuck ottomans up in 1st world war. England still owns land in parts of todays turkey
>>1078152
>mozart
>>1077676
Ottomans were never really anti-Armenian. Armenians were quite important to the Empire just as Greeks. They were not in any case a scapegoat like Jews in Germany. It's a totally different situation. Armenian members of the parliament existed as late as during the WW1.
>>1079746
England has no lands in Turkey
Talking about Brits, the centuries long French Ottoman alliance was over with Napoleon and Ottomans allied with Brits against the Napoleon during Napoleon's 1799 campaign in Egypt and Middle East. I think Brits send a few ships and the Ottoman general Cezzar Ahmet Pasha stopped Napoleon finally in the Siege of Acre which was one of the few defeats of Napoleon.
Napoleon describes the events and his Alexander fantasy like this: "been able to take Acre, I would have put on a turban, I would have made my soldiers wear big Turkish trousers, and I would have exposed them to battle only in case of extreme necessity. I would have made them into a Sacred Battalion--my Immortals. I would have finished the war against the Turks with Arabic, Greek, and Armenian troops. Instead of a battle in Moravia, I would have won a Battle of Issus, I would have made myself emperor of the East, and I would have returned to Paris by way of Constantinople.
His fantasy was crushed by the Ottomans and he returned the other way back to France.
>>1080043
>Treaty of lausanne
>>1073531
s-stupid Ottomans...i-its not like Byzantines like you or anything...b-baka!
>>1080111
So what? What lands are you talking about right now that England has inside Turkey?
>>1073531
>the imperial harem had African eunuch guards
They were very dedicated to not becoming cucks.
>>1080242
Holy shit it's true.
Somehow I have a hard time picturing blacks in the Ottoman Empire.
How were Africans treated overall in the Empire, besides some serving as eunuchs? It's often said the Ottomans were more accepting of religious/national groups (relatively speaking obviously) - was it the same sort of deal with blacks?
>>1076368
Keep being ass blasted faggot good food is one of the best things in the world.
>>1077676
They outlawed brothers killing eachother which while being brutal favoured the more capable princes for the throne.
>>1078010
Nobody gives a shit desu.
>>1080250
As far as I know aside from the eunuchs there were also many blacks as servants in homes or they working as seamen in the navy. Some foreign ambassador remarked that a large part of the ottoman navy consisted of black people.
>>1078104
>Dimitrie Cantemir
>Turkish
yeah, not so much
>>1080362
>muh nationalism
He was an ottoman.
>>1077676
at earlier times ottoman princes were given states of the empire to rule until they would be throned but it caused a lot of civil war because there would be too much fight between strong princes who wanted to become kings, assasinations were often too
so they locked up all the princes in "kafes" cages, in the royal palace, they wouldnt see outside world until they were throned, some even went crazy
you can imagine the rest
>>1074342
>its been 100 years get over it!!!
>HOW DARE YOU DENY THE HOLOCAUST GO BACK TO /POL/ YOU RACIST PROBLEMATIC SEXIST BIGOT N A Z I
>>1078010
who cares nigger
>>1078104
>>1078132
>>1078165
Well finally something I can get behind on /his/
>Not posting the dankest mehter march
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z01xKhfIaoM
If you like Dimitri Kandemiroglu you'll probably dig on Tanburi Cemil Bey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlETB2Lyb88
>Also tanbur music in general
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZDuVzFZrDU
And as an added bonus have some eastern Turk stuff as well (song starts 30seconds in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCiCK00anEU
>>1080250
The first black pilot in history was an Ottoman subject
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Ali_%C3%87elikten
>>1074006
Turk here.
There Are Hardcore retards from either camp:
Atatürkist retards who Start Foaming at the mouth at the slightest hint of arab influences (rightfully so but some overdo the anti Muslim part), and neo-ottomanist retards who Jack off over Erdogans hostility and supposed "hardass" attitude towards westerners. (Even if our relative power is not a fraction of what it was).
Most people are like me:
The ottomans Were powerful And glorious up until the very end. It was the dream of the islamic world we took Hegemony over to rule over Constantinople, Jerusalem and Mecca. We did exactly this and Brought centuries of peace under one flag there.
It was a good show of what Turks are capable of, and in the early times Turks even had a legendary status as being invincible.
I am proud of them just like i am of previous tribes. Seljuks, oghuz, gökturks and later ones, its all one long story.
Ottomans have a bigger Name for being more Recent and more Euro centric.
They are more turk centric but still Were a huge multicultural empire like USA.
ALSO the meme of ottomans being weak in their last 200 years might have a footing in reality but they Were still a force to be reckoned with.
Even in the last battles they won a lot against the then #1 Military power, the Entente.
Victories against brits in a seperatists arabia are also not to forget.
Same with defensive battles on the balkans and against the russian menace.
I know i sound like a huge ottoboo, but im actually ataturkist.
Atatürk saved the nation when the Sultans grew corrupt and falsified by the West.
Do me one favor as histards:
Never let arabs or other *Brothers of faith* claim ownership of the Turkish Ottoman empire.
Too offen they Attribute for examplr the conquest of Constantinople to Islam only when it was a Victory of Turks.
>>1075554
The Abbasids heavily used Iranians as administrators and bureaucrats.
>>1081484
Mein neger, good post
>>1081484
>The ottomans Were powerful And glorious up until the very end.
>ALSO the meme of ottomans being weak in their last 200 years might have a footing in reality but they Were still a force to be reckoned with.
lel, the last 200 years were an absolute joke, to almost losing istanbul if it wasnt for foreigners helping, to getting humiliated by the russians time by time, corruption, to the treaty of sevres and on
how can you not feel shame as a turk about the last 200 years of the empire
>Too offen they Attribute for examplr the conquest of Constantinople to Islam only when it was a Victory of Turks.
lel no, you need to go and read up more about mehmed 2
>>1081381
noice stuff m8
>>1081381
>Them turk runes in the last song
kewl
>>1081686
Buttmad Orthofag detected
>>1081731
im turkish
>>1074347
Wow, a map copied from that of Columbus. Surely this validates an entire culture
>>1081733
Fuck, sorry for the case of mistaken identity. My shitpost failed.
Ever been to Gallipoli?
>>1080251
You're right, delicious kebabs= good culture
>>1081768
no, i plan on, but im saving money now
>>1081786
I like to tour the battlefields of WW1. Gallipoli is by far the best one I've ever been to. You guys did a fantastic job of preserving and memorializing the place.
>>1081484
>Atatürk
Pretty dank dude. Turkey from being split up by the Entente. I think the abolition of the Caliphatul position was a mistake though. The ramifications for which still reverberate unto the present day.
Don't get me wrong, the position would've have been mostly ceremonial but it would've meant a legitimate authority to counter the Salafi Ulema of Saudi Arabia and various the various violent Salafi splinter groups.
>Brothers of faith
I mean, it was true before the Ottoman period but no, the Arabs in particular were not the driving force in the empire.
>Constantinople to Islam only when it was a Victory of Turks
I mean, the symbolism of conquering Constantinople had been important since the early days of Islam. They're not trying to take credit for the victory away from Turks they're using it to legitimize Islam because there are Hadiths about how the Prophet said that it was Gods will that one day they were destined to conquer Constantinople.
Also, the major deciding factor for that battle was the Ottoman Janissary corp. You know, non-Turkish slave soldiers...
>>1082215
>Don't get me wrong, the position would've have been mostly ceremonial but it would've meant a legitimate authority to counter the Salafi Ulema of Saudi Arabia and various the various violent Salafi splinter groups.
Saudi arabia funds their extremism by money. People argue today if the claiphate was not abolished it would have sway today, but thats just not true, you cannot counter the billions and billions of oil money the saudis use to spread their extremism. The caliphate itself was a mere joke since anyway, since arabs betrayed the ottomans shortly before and nobody would care about it.
You can very easily counter salafi influence by simply not allowing saudi arabian money and saudi arabian imams to flow into your country, its as simple as that.
>>1082303
You're right, if the Caliphate had not been abolished it wouldn't be able to hold off Salafism. But, it would provide a much need Sunni counterweight, even if the over-all impact was relatively small.
>since arabs betrayed the ottomans shortly before
Yep, because the Entente promised to help them establish their own states after the war and guess who got betrayed in turn? The arabs.
>not allowing saudi arabian money and saudi arabian imams to flow into your country, its as simple as that.
It's not that simple. The West has stepped it's game up in condemning the Saudi's now that it relies on their Oil less but there's still decades of world dependence on that oil. Ban Saudi citizens and private investors into your country then you risk losing an important oil supply. Even worse, you risk all that oil you were going to buy from the Saudis going to the Communists.
Hindsight is a bitch. It's easy to say ban the Saudi's now but back then no one predicted the ramifications of the rise of salafism. They could only worry about the threat of Communism.
>>1073940
>Fantastically rich history
>>1081484
Ottomans were complete shit in the past hundreds of years. Not a meme, it's a fact. I cannot think of any empire that had to whore out to other ones for protection as much in history.
By the way, the fall of Constantinople can mostly be considered a Victory for cannons. I'd give Arabs and Venetians more credit than the Turks because they're the ones who actually caused the empire too decline. Turks really did nothing to earn the conquest more than previous triers, it was more luck than anything else that literally all the remained of the Byzantine empire was a single city and that cannons had been invented around the same time.
Also Bulgarians helped the Turks.
>>1081797
i was there, the school actually took the students on a trip to there in my school, walked around the barricades and went to military museum, memorials including anzac memorials and stuff
i think also having a memorial and mourning day for enemy soldiers who had died is kinda cool
also Ataturk was the commander of that front that is why its kinda of a big deal in Turkey
>>1082494
>You're right, if the Caliphate had not been abolished it wouldn't be able to hold off Salafism. But, it would provide a much need Sunni counterweight, even if the over-all impact was relatively small.
Turkey is already providing a certain counter weight by funding mosques and providing turkish imams who are "moderate". If they get richer i can see them increasing this kind of stuff.
>The West has stepped it's game up in condemning the Saudi's now that it relies on their Oil less but there's still decades of world dependence on that oil.
You dont get it. Its not the Saudi heads that spread the extremism, its the individual saudi princes who have tons of oil money and believe in wahabism that fund mosques and imams. Not the king. They wont be able to do shit.
Like i said and i will say it again, it is very simply. Dont let a foreign country pay your imams, nationalize it and let imams be dependent on the state for their salary (belgium already has plans) You dont ban saudi citizens, you simply dont give em a license, the vast and vast majority of those saudi imams who preach in the west can only speak arabic.
>It's easy to say ban the Saudi's now
it is, where there is a will is a way. I can understand Europe making a mistake (not only europe, we see this everywhere, asia and on), but you need to step up now and correct it, simple.
>>1074342
forget the genocide they deny till today.
no way fuck you
>>1074355
becaus they deny the genocide till this day and neverlearned from their horrible history
thats the difference between germany and turktards
>>1082708
germany lost the war, the country is cucked to the bone with huge levels indoctrination of which you can see the effects of today with merkel and them inviting refugees
also, +20 shill points, you guys are literally in every thread crying, lol
>>1073531
"The devil excretes and your armies eat."
>>1073885
this desu
>>1081758
>a map copied from that of Columbus
[citation needed]
>>1082736
The Ottoman Empire lost in World War I as well.
>>1073885
>The male equivalent of belly dancers were always more popular than the female ones
source?
also what greeks and romans did was giving young boys to successful statemen so that they would learn how to rule or something, and getting buttfucked by the old political daddy was common
there are greek philosophers who literally argued love can only exist between 2 man and women were only good for baby pumping
>men dancing is so gay, it makes the whole history and nation gay, totally not my political bias
not that i think the whole political daddy butt fuck makes greek or italian history gay cuz i am not an edgy retard who judges history by my superfical political biases
>>1081758
what validates a culture? do they need a permission from an edgy racist cuck in internet to exist?
>copied
sure, that is why it is much more accurate than any map colombus drew
you autists cant even shitpost right
>>1083145
and it ceased to exist, what more could armenians ask for?
>>1083145
Ottoman empire literally ended after ww1, the government who made the armenian genocide were all exiled, the fucking royal family was exiled, caliphate removed
todays Turkish government literally fought the Ottoman empire to exist
but somehow so many people think modern Turkish government should be held responsible for the genocide?
>>1083194
Ottoman culture produced nothing worth preserving, prove me wrong
>in internet
Bootyblasted turk detected, i'm half turk so I recognize that solecism. I gues I'm racist against myself :(
>>1083243
stfu self hater, you either has to be incredibeşy ignoreant, retarded or a troll to say a empire of 600 years and super power at their height literally produced nothing that worth preserving, calling my bootyblasted doesnt validate any of your arguments
pic related porven you wrong, more to come
>>1083243
>>1083270
this ones seljuk tho
oh yeah btw i am turk and its pisses me off when you faggots try to erease my history becasue your ancestors got cucked by my ancestors
>>1073950
How would you know that he specifically gets butthurt over that?
Nice whataboutism, ottoposter please go
>>1074339
>hurr europeen dark ages christian memes xD
>>1082578
Spot the Putinbot
>>1083309
literally facepalmed, you dont know the diffrence between "copy" and "influence"/"inspiration", ofc arhitects of that time had influence from other style, that is not "copying" and even if it was, can you truly say that is not worth preserving? you asked for soemthing worth preserving and i gave it to you
i am infact an archtiect and quite interested in history of archtecture.
but if you really want soemthign completely original, here is something called "Turkish triangle" because it was Seljuks who invented it, it is a dome carrying system that works with utilizing series of triangles to distrubite the load
pic related
Have a chuckle over what retards on /tv/ think
>>1083366
turks have like 10-15 percent turkic dna or whatever the fuck you call it
the rest are white balkan slaves, anatolian greeks
and a little bit of armenian and arab
thats it i think, extremely mixed
>>1083230
>the government who made the armenian genocide were all exiled
The Turkish nationalists were largely composed of Armenian genocide perpetrators, and also massacred hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Armenians afterwards.
Firing the caliph =/= Not guilty of crimes against humanity
>>1083452
Nigga, I fucking know. Do you see what he's arguing tho?
>>1083461
well i mean you are on /tv/, its one of the shitpost boards
>>1083309
>>1083243
have more
pic related is the university equivlent in the Ottomans, it was basically a close community of schoolars who were government funded, the teachers would be retired schoolars and they would pass their retirement teaching the next generation, but it was very elititst so a teacher would only have few students and they would be thought a specific subject like archtecture, medicine, religion, astronomy, math etc
there was also another elite school in royal palace called "enderun" there youngs would be tought politics and military to serve the empire. nearly all the grand vizers were from the royal palace school.
>>1083460
Tell that Stalin, Mao, Leopold and The Khmer Rouge
>>1083460
and hundreds of thousands od Turks were killed and exiled in balkans but noone wants justife for them
also yeah i agree but there is no organized murder like nazi germany, Armenians forced off their land by government but people who killed them were irregular forces, there were no concentration camps or anything like that.
so what is your suggestion on the responsibility about the genocie and its compensation?
my personal opinion is piece of land from eastern anatolia could be given. It would not effect Turkey whatsoever. but a political party trying that is nearly impossible, it would be a poltical suicide.
>>1083470
the enterance of the same building complex.
>>1083460
alot of nazis went on with their normal lives and helped with the rebuild of germany together with america after ww2 and kept alot of strong positions
even the issue only came of importance decades later
the most you can ask for is turkey to recognize it, but not apologize for it, its up to them personally to do whatever with it, im not going to hold it against turks if they continue with their stance, i mostly had negative experiences with armenians
>>1083499
The Armenian Genocide coined the definition of organized mass murder. Both regular and irregular forces were used by the Young Turks.
>>1083513
Nice try Mehmet.
give Constantinople back
>>1083533
>The Armenian Genocide coined the definition of organized mass murder.
Are you talking about lempkin?
He had a very lax stance on what a genocide is. He also considered the what the Greeks did to the Turks a genocide, yet you dont see Turks crying about that, do you?
>>1083538
go to cali and try again, and you can look up about german nazis after world war 2
>>1083538
>replies with a /pol/ image
>no counter-argument, no statements, no facts
you sure showed him boy
>>1083546
desu, if ww1 Greeks could, they would wipe Turks off the face of the earth, i wouldnt be suprised if they tried
>>1083581
offcourse, they tried, and they pretty much did at certain places
its true that lemkin got inspired by popular definitions of what happened to armenians (read, fed with propaganda), but he also came up with other examples, you can read it in his unfinished book
https://books.google.se/books?id=Z9pkney_zw8C&printsec=frontcover&hl=sv#v=onepage&q&f=false
Genocide by Vikings, genocide against Moors, reconquista, genocide against Native Africans by Germans (beginning of the 20th century, people think it was the armenians who got mass murdered first but it was actually not true, germany wins again that), Belgian Congo, genocide against american indians, incas, aztecs, mayans, native australians and on, he gives around 40 examples, including the genocide by greeks against turks
yes its true, he also talked about turks getting genocided, but all armenians dont mention it or care about that offcourse
international law has a much more strict definition of what a genocide is compared to lemkin, it favors turkeys case, that is why armenians pressure turkey trough public opinion (ea spending millions on lobbying) instead of international law
>>1083608
>it favors Turkey
so every major scholar at every prestigious university is wrong? My sides
>>1083623
hmm yeah, why dont these said scholars go and also recognize the genocide of turks done by greeks?
>>1083573
He's too autistic to bother wasting time with, boy. Comparing the Nazis who had their country destroyed, half their territory taken away, are still paying reparations to this day, and have Holocaust denial an automatic jail sentence to the Turks is a complete opposite. No German leader who had anything to do with the Holocaust was spared, even today elderly Germans who so much as answered the telephone are being thrown in jail.
>>1083641
Because of le evil conspiracy against you right?
>>1083546
>>1083608
>He also considered the what the Greeks did to the Turks a genocide
>>1083644
no, its because turkey got over it and continues with their normal lives, just like how we dont care about the balkan genocides of turks anymore, we got over it, most of those scholars probably got a nice payment of dollars by armenians
>>1083647
i literally posted the link to his book retard, you are one of those mega shills who is in every thread bring up the same pictures
>>1083661
>most of those scholars probably got a nice payment of dollars by armenians
my sides, you've gone full conspiratard
Ironically, Turks are the only ones paying off scholars:
> The Armenian Assembly of America found that many or most of the 69 academics apparently benefited directly or indirectly from Turkish government research grants
>>1083682
>Ironically, Turks are the only ones paying off scholars:
Offcourse, Turks are paying off scholars..
I can accept that, no problems, but Armenians are doing that on much, much bigger scales. But obviously, im the conspiritard, but you are the enlightened one, sorry!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_lobby_in_the_United_States
>Zbigniew Brzezinski ranks the three most effective ethnic lobbies in the United States as the Israeli American Lobby, the Greek American lobby and the Armenian American lobby.[1]
says enough, really
>>1083696
>much bigger scales
>The Armenian lobby recently has been subdued by the Turkish and Azerbaijani lobbies. In contrast to the Armenian lobby, the Turkish lobby mostly runs through its government.
>says enough, really
One person says absolutely nothing, really. Especially since scholars in Britain, Germany, Italy, France, etc all agree. But I'm sure that's also a conspiracy, lel
>>1083712
why dont you all go and use international law? lol
if the UN and interantional law agrees with you, why even care about what these scholars are saying?
lel, go and sue, make it internationally recognized, go on, ill wait
oh no wait, is it a conspiracy against armenians why it isnt??
and its well known how big the armenian lobby in america is
>>1083721
>and its well known how big the armenian lobby in america is
Not big enough to force the US to recognize it in the face of the current political climate.
Anyway, what happened to Britain, Germany, etc? Their professors are lying? I'd like you to inform me, wise conspiratard
>>1083748
>Not big enough to force the US to recognize it in the face of the current political climate.
hell, armenian diplomacy can only go that far, i gotta agree, they are one of the best shills on this planet, maybe if their shithole of a country was a bit more important they would have done it by now
>Anyway, what happened to Britain, Germany, etc? Their professors are lying? I'd like you to inform me, wise conspiratard
Germany is cucked to the bone, everyone knows this. I even remember an article about the German president saying that we should recognize what happened to the Armenians, and that Germans should also pay for their part in it.
I kekked really hard at that, i cant imagine how it is for a red pilled german to live in germany, they have become delusional.
Britain is also obvious, they and the Soviets are probably the 2 biggest reasons why Armenians started going for recognition, to put pressure on Turkey.
obviously, also cant blame mose of them. Armenians are extremely good in shilling and spreading propaganda. They (the diaspora) pretty much have spread a completely revisionist idea troughout europe and america. Just because they are western doesnt mean shit.
That said, its all irrelevant to me. Go and internationally recognize it, after that come back, instead of paying countries millions and force them to recognize it.
Armenia is like that little fly that keeps bugging you when you are trying to go to sleep. One time you slap it on time and you can go and sleep nicely.
That said its hilarious how every thread on his about turks turn into a genocide discussion, i admit, i keep falling for it, you truly cant beat the armenians shills
>>1073899
>Muslim that beat back the Crusades
Kurd
>>1083661
You posted the link to the front cover of a book, dumbass.
>>1083858
you can scroll idiot, google another google book if needed
listen, i know you shilled lemkin and his armenian genocide stuff a million times, i know this comes as a shock that he also said a genocide happened against turks, i know this shatters your view about him, but we all know you will just ignore this, you will just keep on shilling lemkin ignoring what you found out today
>>1083787
>Armenia is like that little fly that keeps bugging you when you are trying to go to sleep
Hilarious considering you're the only ones who have been caught paying professors, and your lobby is quickly growing.
The rest of your post is nonsense, it basically comes down to nothing
>why do 99% of professors disagree wtih you
>It's obvious, it's all obvious
You're going to have to do better. You have 100 times the money the Armenians have. If it were really down to bribes, the professors would agree with you.
>They (the diaspora) pretty much have spread a completely revisionist idea troughout europe and america.
Yes, all of those British and German Armenians! kek you turks really are slimey
>>1084344
>Hilarious considering you're the only ones who have been caught paying professors, and your lobby is quickly growing.
No country can match the shilling skills of jews and armenians.
>The rest of your post is nonsense, it basically comes down to nothing
k
>why do 99% of professors disagree wtih you
Why would i care about them?
Why dont they group up and take it to the UN? Why dont they make a case with international law in mind?
Why dont you go and make it official? Why do i have to repeat myself 500 times huh?
>You're going to have to do better.
Not really. My position is very comfy, most of my people are red pilled on the issue. Its you who will have to do better, because you wont get jackshit from me.
>You have 100 times the money the Armenians have. If it were really down to bribes, the professors would agree with you.
The problem also is, like i mentioned, the completely revisionist idea armenians have spread troughout europe and america. Most of them just eat up the propaganda fed by armenian diaspora. Probably half of them get their information form wikipedia which is getting shilled by armenians 24/7 wich tons of unsourced bullshit.
But like i said again, at the end of the day, there could be 0 or 10 thousand saying its true, go and make a case out of it.
>Yes, all of those British and German Armenians! kek you turks really are slimey
Theo nly ones who are slimey are the armenians, everyone knows it.
>Tfw you will enjoy your country being red pilled till the age you die, armenia will stay an eternal shithole and it will just lobby to countries while i wont give a fuck
feels good
>>1084375
>No country can match the shilling skills of jews and armenians.
Lol, do you really think in such vulgar cliches?
>Why dont they group up and take it to the UN?
What good would it do? The UN already classifies it as a genocide btw.
>Why would i care about them?
Why should you care about the top 200 universities in the world? lol are you serious?
>Not really. My position is very comfy, most of my people are red pilled on the issue
Most people outside of Turkey disagree with you. In fact, there's much more anti turk racism than anything. I guess it's comfy that your low ranked unis regurgitate state propaganda tho
>. Its you who will have to do better, because you wont get jackshit from me.
How can I? This meets every metric. If you don't agree with 99% of historians, how can a non academic on the computer convince you
Your position is: I can never be convinced because reasons. Now convince me.
>The problem also is, like i mentioned, the completely revisionist idea armenians have spread troughout europe and america.
kek, how do you believe this shit? every college professor who disagrees with you is working for an armenian
>armenia will stay an eternal shithole
Who gives a shit? Kind of irrelevant to the discussion.
>>1084390
>Lol, do you really think in such vulgar cliches?
Its the truth. Just a quick look on wikipedia makes it very apparent.
>Why should you care about the top 200 universities in the world? lol are you serious?
Yep, they are being fed Armenian propaganda. Pretty much, literally all of them.
>Most people outside of Turkey disagree with you.
Duh, they dont care about the issue, they are being fed propaganda and just go with it, they dont care, they just accept it and move on. France does it for votes, america does it because of lobbying and on.
>In fact, there's much more anti turk racism than anything.
Its irrelevant of the armenian issue. With or without it would be the same. Nobody really cares about you.
>Your position is: I can never be convinced because reasons. Now convince me.
My position is that Armenian diaspora have spread an amazingly revisionist idea troughout europe and america. Historians just go with it. You also have different views on what a genocide is. Like mentioned earlier, Armenians like to point out lemkin, but also ignore that he said the genocide done against Turks.
>kek, how do you believe this shit?
Its the truth lol.
>every college professor who disagrees with you is working for an armenian
A Turkish professor saying its not one is a brainwashed one offcourse, but a foreigner which is being fed armenian propaganda is the good one.
Its not only tied to the armenian issue. Europe for example does it on many, many ways. They dont care, modern europeans are shallow and just accept everything thrown at them. Belgium killed 10 million in Congo, nobody gives a shit there. Look at what France did in north africa, even recently they fucked up libya.
At the end of the day, you wont get any land, you wont get a penny, with or without recognition your so called "pain" wont go away (like how it only became an issue decades later after the holocaust lel).
You guys are sad. Go and shill, spread propaganda for another 100 years.
>>1084454
>Historians just go with it.
>this is an argument
>>1073531
Was the Turkish Empire the only nation to successful kick Europe's ass?
>>1084464
Most of those said historians barely have any credits regarding ottoman history. Its just a bullshit list of random names where you cant find fuckall about their credentials.
Bernard Lewis, Normal Stone, Gilles Veinstein, Michael Reynolds. Sean Mcmeekin, Michal Radu, Malcolm Yapp all reject the genocide narrative. You cannot come up with historians that come even close to their credentials that recognize it.
Just saying "alot of historians say it :D" is also not an argument.
Armenians like to point out that shitty group called "international association of genocide scholars", but they are political activists and not historians.
As good as all of your co called historians rely on armenian/pro armenian information. Its a fact.
>>1084484
Also, most if not all scholars who dont recognize it received threats against them and their families in addition to having their reputations and credentials attacked by Armenian nationalists and "genocide scholars". Many historians refuse to describe 1915 as "genocide" but will not explicitly call the Armenian Diaspora out for fear of retaliation.
I listed over 100 historians, academics, and scholars, and there are probably hundreds more, but it's too time-consuming and unnecessary to search for all of them and link to their works and statements individually. Justin McCarthy and his family have been under police protection since 1983. Stanford Shaws house literally got bombed.
>>1084499
forgot the site
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2009/06/2889-ottoman-armenian-tragedy-is.html
>>1084484
>Bernard Lewis, Normal Stone, Gilles Veinstein, Michael Reynolds. Sean Mcmeekin, Michal Radu, Malcolm Yapp all reject the genocide narrative.
Wow, I can count them on one hand. So these guys are completely neutral then? Even though we know your government funded some of them? But we can't trust the ones who disagree because armo lobby.
>Just saying "alot of historians say it :D" is also not an argument.
But "historical consensus" is a damn good for a general discussion. I can't hope to prove it any better than a top tier historian.
>As good as all of your co called historians rely on armenian/pro armenian information. Its a fact.
Can you prove that all British, German, American, etc scholars are relying on le ebil armenian information? No? then it isn't a fact, is it?
I've been reading a book about Habsburgs and the "Saxon" villages are mentioned in it. The constant raids by Tatars were an awful issue, but did they also raid into Ottoman territory? I mean, raids were not exactly regular or directed.
>>1084503
>blogspot
disregarded completely
>>1084499
>Many historians refuse to describe 1915 as "genocide" but will not explicitly call the Armenian Diaspora out for fear of retaliation.
Sounds like total nonsense. Who's threatening the Germans or the British?
Moreover, you've only given me a few instances, but you seek to support a general statement.
>>1084508
>Wow, I can count them on one hand. So these guys are completely neutral then?
THey have many many many more credentials then those other so called historians.
>Even though we know your government funded some of them?
You have to, its important to counter armenian shilling.
>But we can't trust the ones who disagree because armo lobby.
The credentials are there to see. Its as simple as that.
>But "historical consensus" is a damn good for a general discussion.
You can shove that historical consensus up your ass. Go make a legal case.
>I can't hope to prove it any better than a top tier historian.
You barely if not have any one who has top tier credentials regarding ottoman history.
>Can you prove that all British, German, American, etc scholars are relying on le ebil armenian information?
All of europe relies on revisionist armenian information together with America. There is nothing to prove, its hilariously one sided.
>>1084513
Sounds like total nonsense.
I mentioned one case where he has been on lifelong protection and another one got bombed. Look it up.
>Who's threatening the Germans or the British?
Name a couple, let mee look them up, let me see their ottoman history credentials.
>>1084520
>THey have many many many more credentials then those other so called historians.
I have many more historians, and the international community. Sort of outdoes your handful
>All of europe relies on revisionist armenian information together with America. There is nothing to prove, its hilariously one sided.
That's a huge fucking argument, and the burden of proof is on you, since you fly in the face of consensus.
>I mentioned one case where he has been on lifelong protection and another one got bombed. Look it up.
Why should I? An instance proves nothing. Desperate posting tbqh
>>1084539
>I have many more historians, and the international community. Sort of outdoes your handful
quality>quantity, a historian saying it means fuckall is he has no credentials
>That's a huge fucking argument, and the burden of proof is on you, since you fly in the face of consensus.
Its clear as the sky. Nobody cared about it untill armenians diaspora started spreading a heavily revisionist idea troughout europe. Wikipedia is getting supervised and shilled 24/7.
You keep saying that and that historian, let me see their credentials, name a few.
>Why should I? An instance proves nothing. Desperate posting tbqh
2 actually, and just ignoring agressive armenian stance + lobbying is stupid
when a guy who has a wife and a kids hosue gets bombed, you know what kind of shit you are up against and stay quiet on the issue. Even i would.
>>1084508
>But "historical consensus" is a damn good for a general discussion. I can't hope to prove it any better than a top tier historian.
Historical consensus is generally limited to historians who specialize in whatever field of history that's relevant to the issue needing consensus.
>>1084561
You haven't even proven quality, you've provided a handful of cherrypicked names. A flood of historians stand against you.
Remember when akcam faces death threats and harassment? Turks went so far as to edit his wikipedia page to call him a terrorist
Turkey now has a powerful US lobby.
I guess we don't have to listen to your historians now- under your simpleton logic.
>>1084667
And you still haven't proven that historians in general agree with you.
>>1084561
>and just ignoring agressive armenian stance
Two instances do not prove a stance. Even 10 do not prove a stance.
You people- Greeks, Turks, Armenians- are all such natural shifty-eyed liars, it never ceases to astound me.
>>1074386
Because janissaries were literally kidnapped children brainwashed into the Ottoman army and then send to massacre the very villages from which they came.
>>1084778
>You haven't even proven quality, you've provided a handful of cherrypicked names.
err, making me repeat myself again, quality > quantity
>A flood of historians stand against you.
name a few, let me see their credentials.
>Remember when akcam faces death threats and harassment?
Do you mean that con artist with a fake german degree (that was confirmed)? He should be banned from entering Turkey. An attention whore with no credentials. Should be fucking hanged if you ask me.
>I guess we don't have to listen to your historians now- under your simpleton logic.
A historian who has no credential is as valid as my voice and as your voice.
>>1084783
>Two instances do not prove a stance. Even 10 do not prove a stance.
Yes they do. According to you there is no terrorism problem in Europe because of 2 attacks in Paris and Brussels? Alright!
>You people- Greeks, Turks, Armenians- are all such natural shifty-eyed liars, it never ceases to astound me.
I have absolutely no problem with you saying this. If you believe that, its perfectly fine. I am not even offended. But its weird if you are the one who i have been discussing the whole time, im going to assume not and that you are a different person.
>>1083309
Every time you light a fire you copy a caveman you absolute faggot.
Buttblasted idiots like you are the reason why we can't discuss anything about turks here.
>>1084831
I bet you're from a balkan country.
Tell me again why the ottomans would kill their taxpayers ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPTg_H_rP5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SymcEAeYGOw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGTds-WRsNQ
>>1084482
Depends what you mean by that.
Do you mean successfully invade Europe? If so, what about the invasion of Cordoba by Walid or the invasion of Russia by Mongols?
If not, what about the victory the Japanese won at Tsushima against the Russians? Or perhaps Saladin's victory against the Kingdom of Jerusalem at Horns of Hattin?
>>1077669
"About" as inbred as the rest of the European nobility was.
>>1085305
Probably less as they had children with different balkan slave qts.
>>1073531
Those uniforms look classy as fuck.
>>1084778
>And you still haven't proven that historians in general agree with you.
I'm not whoever you're arguing with, that was my first post here. As far as I can tell, almost every Ottoman historian is apathetic about the issue. The only historians who seem to have an opinion otherwise are the major Ottomanists, who disagree with a lot of the stated claims in various ways, or historians of other disciplines who don't have much authority in the first place to declare any sort of historical consensus.
It'd be like saying the Dark Ages is finally and decidedly declared a shit hole of an era by a consensus of historians, then showing a petition - something that's alien to historical debate to begin with - signed by Classicists and WW2 historians.
