Oh god.
I came to this board expecting autisticly intelligent threads about the industrial output of the Byzantine Empire during it's golden age peak not autisticly stupid ones like discussing if the holocaust really happened.
This is not what I wanted at all.
I bet you deny the Armenian genocide, though
Wouldn't want to offend those Turks, would we?
>>1059604
Mods gave up and it has been like this ever since
>having high expectations of anything on 4chan
>>1059604
I expected that too, but all I've seen is severe amounts of autism and leftists, atheists, and right wingers whining from time to time.
>>1059604
You're right, let's stop arguing with people who pretend the Holocaust happened and move on to talk real history.
>>1060094
When u deny the holocaust ur ciommiting 2 genosides
Why are so many americans fascinated by Hitler ? We still have proofs of his madness everywhere in my country, and still know people who lived the genocide, not only Jews but also Tzigans and resistants.
I believe some stupid dudes think that they're fighting censorship while discussing nazism. But they're far far away from truth, they're jsut fags who need something to feel different, and they believe Hitler is like every warlord or politician. But no, he was craziest than mad, fucked his dog, his niece until she suicided, he organized the most coward killing system ever, he's a shame for the whole humanity. But fags wants to play Rebels, and this is a good way to look like a rebel, talking about nazism. And not any kind of rebel, the stupid kind.
Problem is Americans have made Iro Ito a much more diabolical figure than Hitler. Well if you think so you don't know your History.
>>1060145
>Problem is Americans have made Iro Ito a much more diabolical figure than Hitler
wat
Hirohito is pretty much absolved when it comes to WWII, in American historiography I'm familiar with.
>>1060155
alright I can't say better than you about this,
I've just seen alot of WW2 propaganda and Hirohito appears alot more than Hitler, doesn't he?
>>1060160
>I've just seen alot of WW2 propaganda and Hirohito appears alot more than Hitler, doesn't he?
That might have to do with the fact that the Pacific theater was pretty much America's game. There were more soldiers who had to be made to hate Japs than soldiers who had to be made to hate Germans; ergo, larger quantities of anti-Asian propaganda than anti-German propaganda. Maybe.
But Hitler is almost always portrayed as the architect of the Holocaust nowadays in the US, and Hirohito is portrayed as the Emperor who dindu nuffin, it was muh advisors and muh Army who did everything.
>>1060160
When Americans talk about Japan's involvement in WW2, they don't point to Hirohito but rather... Japan itself.
>>1060168
Exactly.
In the end it looks like some young americans don't understand how stupid coward and dangerous this asshole of hitler was. He won by betrayal, lies and social hate and was financed by industrials who built his image.
>>1060145
>But no, he was craziest than mad, fucked his dog, his niece until she suicided,
Yeah sure, if I listen to your dumbass ramblings in broken english any longer I will start to doubt the holocaust myself.
>>1060209
I don't think you understand how much anti-Hitler propaganda there is in America, my European friend. Please stop lecturing me about my own country.
>>1059620
it was always like this, in the first couple of days it was basicaly a /pol colony, the basic issues were always pretty much 'why x cannot into civ' and 'my favorite historical whatever could totaly beat your dad up any day'
notice how almost every other thread is basicaly a attempt to proove a implicit value judgment about something or someone
its like half the posters here dont even have a notion of history as anything other than a record of who was the bestest ever and why it is the ones anon identifies with
it could just be that most people here are 12, i dont know...
http://boards.4chan.org/his/thread/1060235/
Let's see how long this thread stays up
>>1060237
Alright, this feels reassuring. Hitler men used to leave in my 4 grandparents homes, most of them lost their fathers at this time and I have to say I feel very very annoyed when i feel like reading forgiving sentences about this fucker. I've to say i'm not 100% objective about all this, emotion talks ez.
>>1060237
But maybe the "too much anti hitler propganda" is a reason why some people fell like cool when they brave this prop and ay interest to nazism. I hope I mistake.
>>1060315
Well, yeah, you're obviously never going to have a good understanding of modern history unless you can get over this shit, I'm sorry.
>>1060318
No, it isn't about feeling cool, it's about facts. There were reasons people supported Hitler. It's simply false to deny this, and it's disingenuous to obstruct discussions about what Germans liked about Hitler because it hurts your feelings to think about other people liking a leader you don't like.
>>1060320
well i'm not the one who got traumatized, I just have 100%sure proofs that Camps existed and that Nazis didn't took other people like human beings.. What's easy with Hitler is that most of the towns he conquered are today destroyed and rebuilt modern. So that's not hard to have a good understanding of this part of History, consequences are watchable everywhere
>>1060325
The problem isn't political support or german people needs. The problem is that he used hate as a catalyst, and that's something I find really sad.
>>1060318
you dont mistake
>>1060325
I don't care about the leader,
I look after facts, as you said :
He never had majority at the Parliament
He betrayed his allies
He killed most of his german political opponents
He organized the most coward killing system ever, dispatching responsibility between all his minions. He let his soldiers sell lamps and clothes made of Human skin, I've seen one myself. So yeah, talk about facts. This man is a mistake, not a leader, as well as a political creature built with embryonnic marketing methods and made famous thanks to massive "communication" as we today say.
>>1060338
That isn't a historical argument, though. You're moralizing. You're what's wrong with discussions here: it becomes all about how you feel about a figure, not about what that figure did. To say that he used hate as a catalyst is to give one man far too much credit for something that was caused by quite a few factors.
>>1060331
>well i'm not the one who got traumatized, I just have 100%sure proofs that Camps existed and that Nazis didn't took other people like human beings..
The Nazis killed your family members. You have an emotional attachment to an anti-Nazi position. Either that or you feel little to no loyalty to your family and your emotions have nothing to do with your family's experience of the Nazis.
>>1060348
>He let his soldiers sell lamps and clothes made of Human skin, I've seen one myself.
Yeah, let's talk about facts. Hasn't that one been debunked?
>>1060331
You sure? You sound pretty triggered to
me Wladyslaw
>>1060348
>This man is a mistake, not a leader, as well as a political creature
I don't understand how he was "not a leader."
>built with embryonnic marketing methods and made famous thanks to massive "communication" as we today say.
Why the scare quotes? How does having a cult of personality make him less of a leader?
>>1060350
My emotions have to do with what i know about this man,
and I know alot because my family has directly suffered from him. Not as much as most people because germans thought the people from my region are "cousins" of the aryans (celtic part of France) : my grandparents had butter on their bread when under occupation, which was luxe.
So i'm not directly traumatized or something, but I know 4 people who directly saw what happened, and I'd be mad if i didn't ask them about their own experiences. So yeah, part of what I know come from my family, but I know facts allow for rationnal understanding while emotions don't.
In France we have our own explanation for WW2 :
1848-1852 : Napoleon the 3rd got elected, turned the 2d Republic to the 3rd Empire and made good things, like developping railways and industry. In 1870 he did shit, and attacked Germans. He lost, and lost Lorraine and Alsace.
1871 to 1914 : French propganda learn to young people that they got stolen from Alsace and Lorraine, and that one day they'd have to take it back
1918 : Allies won the war, and the Treaty they signed was the most unfair ever, putting Germany on their knees and poorer than ever
30's : Hitler uses poorness and the feeling of humiliation, as well as old antisemitisim (Affaire Dreyfus etc...) to build his populist politics. Fearing a new war, no european leader succeeded in pacifying him. They've given him the Sudettes for example.
You know the end. So Nazism was the direct reaction to the unfair Treaty of Versailles, which was a direct answer to the loss of Alsace and Loraine, which was the direct reaction to Napoleon 3's attacks on Germany.
>>1060384
>In France we have our own explanation for WW2 :
What's true everywhere is true in France, too, and I bet you're one of the frogposters who thinks that the Versailles treaty was fair.
>>1060371
not sure what you mean sorry?
>>1060388
have you read?
>>1060384
>You know the end. So Nazism was the direct reaction to the unfair Treaty of Versailles, which was a direct answer to the loss of Alsace and Loraine, which was the direct reaction to Napoleon 3's attacks on Germany.
Fine.
Fair enough. Could you answer my question about the lampshades?
>>1060392
i'm looking for your answer, I don't see it. What was it again ? soz
>>1060397
After the defeat of Nazi Germany, claims were circulated that Ilse Koch, the wife of the commandant of Buchenwald concentration camp, had possessed lampshades made of human skin, and that she had tattooed prisoners killed in order to use their skin for this purpose.[2] After her conviction for war crimes, General Lucius D. Clay, the interim military governor of the American Zone in Germany, reduced her sentence to four years' prison on the grounds "there was no convincing evidence that she had selected Nazi concentration camp inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins, or that she possessed any articles made of human skin".[3]
Jean Edward Smith in his biography, Lucius D. Clay, an American Life, reported the general maintained that the leather lamp shades were really made out of goat skin. The book quotes a statement made by General Clay years later:
There was absolutely no evidence in the trial transcript, other than she was a rather loathsome creature, that would support the death sentence. I suppose I received more abuse for that than for anything else I did in Germany. Some reporter had called her the "Bitch of Buchenwald", had written that she had lamp shades made of human skin in her house. And that was introduced in court, where it was absolutely proven that the lamp shades were made out of goat skin.[4]
The charges were made once more when she was rearrested, but again were found to be groundless.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampshades_made_from_human_skin#Nazi_era
>>1060405
Well, thanks for the data.
All I can say is that a collaborator is known to have bought a lamp in my village to a nazi soldier during occupation, and that he got killed in the 50's by a former soldier. Maybe he got cheated and just bought a goat lamp, all I can say is that next time i go to my town i can take a picture and post it somewhere, here maybe. But I only go next month. Maybe someone could tell if it looks like goat. If someone has interest i'll take the pic, I'm curious about knowing if the local legend is true.
>>1060414
Even if it's made of human skin there's no reason to think it's from the Holocaust.
Even if it's from the Holocaust there's no reason to think it's made of human skin.
Even if it's made of Jew-skin harvested at Buchenwald there's no reason to think your picture will prove anything.
Take the lampshade to a university and have them run tests on it.
>>1060414
as I explain i realize how much it looks like the collaborator got "scammed", maybe it's just a story
>>1060384
>So Nazism was the direct reaction to the unfair Treaty of Versailles
I wonder how do they explain the fact that the nazis were oscillating between being a laughingstock, a failure, and political nobodies for like ten years after WW1, that is at the time where the effects of the treaty were felt the worst, and only really came to power after the great depression had everyone, err, depressed.
>>1060419
x) one day i'll want to know, i'll steal the lamp and take it to someone who can analze it^^
>>1060388
>88
>didn't even bother to read
You fuckin retard
>>1060427
>What is the Freikorps
>What are German reparations and hyperinflation
>>1059614
Do people actually think making strawman arguments makes them look intelligent or correct?
>>1060427
What do you mean "they" ? What National Education teach to french kids about this ? We basicaly learn that before WW2, european people didn't wanted a war. When Edouard Daladier came back from Munich, many people were waiting for him at the Airport, willing to thank him. But he knew that these people had not understood that the sacrifice of the Sudettes was only the first step to the next war. He wrote about this and told they shouldn't be celebrating. So to my understanding what allowed Hitler to rise is the general motivation of not facing political reality in some european countries, ie the winners of the Treaty of Versailles..
>>1060454
t. Mehmet Avantanglu
>>1060388
This is what happens when your emotions get ahead of you.
Les Jews have really done a number on this board.
>>1060455
Yeah I meant the people responsible for pushing the "ToV literally created nazis and the war" angle, even though it disregards like ten or fifteen years of, well, of things showing the opposite happening or rather even more importantly, of loads of other and much more important things happening.
>>1060485
I'm not sure i understand, sorry my english is not perfect. What other things are you referring to ?
>>1060460
What did he mean by this?
>>1060497
I mean things like the great depression (THE factor in Hitler's rise to power) not being mentioned, the elections in the ten years following WW1 in which the nazis basically failed every time, the fact that the German economy was recovering surprisingly well despite the 'terrible' conditions of the Treaty, the fact that the conditions imposed by the treaty were in no way excessive and Germany could have handled them, the reparations actually being postponed and cancelled before Hitler took over, etc.
The point is that I absolutely hate the "ToV = WW2" shortcut - it's not even a shortcut, it's not even a simplification, it's outright misleading, disingenuous and sometimes bordering on flat out wrong.
>>1060538
Are you denying that the Treaty was significant? I've encountered a lot of French posters here who say that Germany deserved it and therefore it was fair and therefore not involved in causing WWII.
>>1060541
well it did, but the terms really weren't that harsh. they were much lighter than the demands of the Germans during the war
Moot screwed the pooch when he allowed this place to become the home base for the worst, least intelligent people online in the name of free speech. He most certainly learned over time why every functioning community on the internet shows low/zero tolerance toward the sort of pathological liars and trash found on /pol/. 4chan used to create "memes" that were actually funny, believe it or not. 4chan used to categorize flat-earthers and holocaust deniers together where they belong. Now you have spamming "for you" and genuine deniers of history who are so unintelligent they believe doublethink is a virtue.
If /pol/ had been deleted there would have been a bad period, but in the end this place would have been funnier and more intelligent.
>>1059604
I mean it was that when it was first started up. Then fear of /pol/ brought /pol/ in.
Still better off, and if you start a thread on it, you might be able to get it going.
>>1060538
Is the great depression really different from normal life in a ruined country ? About the ten years of election, that's why i said he never had majority. Hence he's taken profit from conception mistakes in the constitution.
"the fact that the conditions imposed by the treaty were in no way excessive and Germany could have handled them" wow do you have any elements to confirm this ?
You seem to undermine the Humiliation feelings, the Treaty of Versailles has put the whole guilt of the war on Germany, despite they've NOT BEEN invaded during WW1. It has given a revenge will that many say was justified, even the peoples who got invaded.
>>1060561
even "among" the people who got invaded, I meant. Sorry for generalization
Yeah actually the quality of posting as greatly decreased since the board started. Before there were actually educated discussion mostly but now it's mostly halocaust stuff, niggers and jews this and that, basically pol with dates which the rules specifically says that /his/ is not. It's like this board is not even moderated.
>>1060172
This is because of what the American soldiers saw when they would win(land) battles against the Japanese. A lot of Japanese soldiers would fight to the death or commit sepuka( hope I spelled that right) To top it off when Americans would see entire villages commit suicide. Of course they didn't know that they were being portrayed as cowardly pigs to the general populace.
>>1060573
/pol/ is cancer, but it's already spread too far to do anything about it.
>>1059604
why dont you make a thread about the industrial output of the byzantine empire during its golden age instead of make in autisticly stupid thread about how there are autisticly stupid threads
if you arent part of the solution you are part of the problem faggot
>>1060595
>tfw you realize the admins most likely wanted to hand out bans for people saying "cuck," but realized it was like 70% of their active posters
Site became beyond saving a while ago. That's what happens when you make your site the best options for all the retards to circle jerk on. They eventually take over and chase out all the decent, smart posters through the power of relentless stupidity and relentless shitposting.
>>1059604
I'm more interested in why people here have such huge boners for dictators like Hitler, Franco and Pinochet despite most of the traffic here being 15-30 years old Americans and Western Europeans (hence never lived in a dictatorship).
>>1060591
>Of course they didn't know that they were being portrayed as cowardly pigs to the general populace.
You sure?
>>1060621
maybe that's the point. Grass is always greener in your neighbour's garden, until you decide to love your grass no matter what ^^
>>1060621
Those ones have specifically gotten more popular since retards started circle-jerking about Stalin and Mao a couple years ago. The rise of the Alt Right is a direct response to the rise of the digital Left. Those "Porky the Capitalist Pig" memes are all fucking cringe-worthy.
>>1060072
this
/his/ isn't shit because "too many shitposters / /pol/ invasion / poor moderation / too broad discussion criteria"
it's shit because it's fucking 4chan, and literally nothing you can do will be able to stop the retards from posting their retarded ideas
Just learn to ignore stupid threads/posts m8
>>1060541
Not at all, it certainly was a factor but not the factor. It is infuriating to see again and again the shortcut between the treaty and this mythical inevitability of WW2 being made. It is literally ignoring some ten or fifteen years of some of the most tumultous and layered political, economic and even social development of Germany (and other nations). I mean just the basic idea of treaty = nazis = war falls apart in the very first step, where were those nazis in all those years before they took over? Nowhere, that's where. Nowhere near power and with like single digits in the elections.
Just like much of WW1 people just like their history tidy, easy, direct, when it was none of those and the result is an abhorrent abortion, a distortion of history, basically outright falsehoods. Hurr durr they wuz Napoleonic armies walking into machine guns and everyone wanted war and then they pinned it on Germany and destroyed them and that literally created Hitler and the second war. I'm getting mildly annoyed just thinking about it.
>>1060561
>"the fact that the conditions imposed by the treaty were in no way excessive and Germany could have handled them" wow do you have any elements to confirm this ?
There are entire works by historians about this. See Myths of Reparations by Sally Marks. The gist of it - Germany could have paid. Just apply a bit of common sense - it was in the Allies' best interest to structure the reparations that way. Except, Germany did not want to pay. So they went on to sabotage the economy and try to weasel out of the reparations.
>the Treaty of Versailles has put the whole guilt of the war on Germany
It did no such thing. That was the Germans' attempt to twist the treaty to suit their own propaganda.
>despite they've NOT BEEN invaded during WW1
Well they did not have to be. They were that done. They were literally starving, their army had crumbled, retreated and surrendered en masse, their homefront was nonexistent
and/or in open revolt.
>>1060787
>>the Treaty of Versailles has put the whole guilt of the war on Germany
>It did no such thing. That was the Germans' attempt to twist the treaty to suit their own propaganda.
I just read the whole treaty and it does reject the whole guilt on Germany. Find the english version and read it yourself if you like, but don't come argue on this point until you've read it.
for whoever wants the french version https://www.herodote.net/Textes/tVersailles1919.pdf
You've confirmed my points on the two other bullets.
>>1060942
Article 231.
>>1060948
Every Central Power had a similar clause
