Why was France the most quintessentially medieval kingdom of the middle ages? Chivalry, castles, feudalism, crusading fervor, tournaments, were all the most abundant in France during this time
>>1051610
What about Anglo-Normandy?
>>1051686
Ruled by Frenchmen
>>1051686
huh? They were basically french
>>1051610
Probably because very large territory, deep cultural traditions, centrally located.
Fucking Love medieval France.
Veev luh-Fronss.
>>1051610
It was in the middle, influenced by all and went on to influence the other.
>>1051731
>very large territory
HRE was much larger. And before you say the HRE was a nonentity, they had a lot of power in the early and high middle ages, and at different points in history. Also, the kingdom of france was very much fractured during medieval times as well. Until the late middle ages, the king barely had any power over his nobles
>>1051610
Most populated nation in Europe, strongest and best organized central authority and government, higher standards of living even for its peasantry then compared with any other contemporary European nation sans maybe the Byzantine Empire. There's a reason why France was the dominant power of Europe for centuries.
>>1051757
Wrong. Things radiated from france, not the other way around
>>1051762
>Most populated nation in Europe
Wasnt a nation. There was no such thing as a 'nation' in medieval europe. The crownlands themselves were the only lands controlled directly by the king, and they only made up a small part of 'france'. Pic related
>>1051610
France was the most populated country in Europe at the time, they represented about 25% of the European population;
>>1051782
>France was the most populated country in Europe at the time, they represented about 25% of the European population;
dumbest shit ive read all day
>>1051610
I'm fairly certain the HRE had more castles (if you count it as a single entity). When it comes to tournaments, the court of Burgundy was most influential during the High Middle Ages, however, approaching the late middle ages South German and Italian courts became more important (possibly because that's where all the plate armour came from which made it easily accessible) most notably the court of Emperor Maximilian I.
>>1051760
It's not simply about the power of the capetian dynasty, that became stronger than almost every rukling family in the HRE, but about France in genral. The french lords were quite clearly among the strongest in all Europe, which explain the early successes of the crusades. France was also culturally on top (troubadours,chivalry, Paris university, courtly love, gothic architecture)
>>1051776
This map is stupidly oversimplified though.
And nation =/= nation state
>>1051776
Okay.
>most populated kingdom in Europe
>>1051760
True but the HRE was even more fractured, so culturally they couldn't unify the hearts and minds of each squabbling hillside village.
>>1051789
>France was historically the largest nation of Europe. During the Middle Ages more than one quarter of Europe's population was French; during the 17th century it was still one fifth.
>>1051803
Probably because the HRE was not unified enough but a collection of mostly sovereign principalities with their own agendas.
>>1051610
Medieval France was obviously shit because it gave rise to modern France which is only good at surrendering.
>>1051807
>no reference for this statistic
>only appears on wikipedia
>no reference on the wikipedia page
Opinion discarded
>>1051834
They were pretty good at surrendering even back then Tbh
>>1051849
>t. French colony
>>1051849
Yeah, but it was to other Frenchmen (like Henry V de Plantagenet) so...
>>1051864
>>1051869
>normans
>french
>>1051849
Didn't they speak Langua Franca in the courts?
>>1051869
>henry v
>french
are u kidding? After hundreds of years of ruling from england, they ceased to be french a long time prior to henry v
>>1051839
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography#Demographic_tables
>>1051873
>Angevins
>Normans
Pick one
>>1051873
The Plantagenets were not Normans, you idiot.
Always a brit to shit up threads about France.
>>1051874
The king spoke norman french for a while, until around edward i, when english kings began to know both norman french and middle english. Henry V was the first king to speak english as his first language
>>1051803
>If it was so strong, why did France continually conquered HRE lands over centuries?
Do you have proof? For most of the early middle ages, France was focused on England and HRE was focused on itself.
They finally fought in 1500 when the Holy Roman Emperor personally captured the King of France and put him in a monkey cage.
>>1051878
He still spoke French, considered himself French and lived most of the time in his French territories since he hated the british weather. Read one of his biographies and enjoy "education"
>>1051893
>They finally fought in 1500
No. Battle of Bouvines happened before that. And it was mostly Castille that defeated France during the italian wars.
>>1051889
>norman french
You're trying to hard
"Norman French" was as different from regular French as American English is from British English
And the Angevin Kings (the dynasty that ruled from 1154 to 1485, after the Norman one (1066-1154)) spoke regular French, not "Norman French"
>>1051901
You're confusing with Lionheart
>>1051901
Completely false. Norman french was his second language, he held court/parliament and did all official paperwork in english.
>considered himself French
Absolutely zero evidence of this. The fact that his administration was the first to speak/write 100% in english would say otherwise.
> lived most of the time in his French territories
lol what a retard. He lived exclusively in england until he INVADED france. THEN he spent all his time there until his death trying to subdue the rest of the kingdom and waiting for the old french king to die so that he could be crowned king of france. His only interest in France was claiming the crown which he believed to be his by birthright
Fucking delusional frog
>>1051909
True but this was the HRE getting involved in the Anglo-French conflicts. Also HRE was divided, Otto IV only controlled the north while Frederick II controlled the south and was supported by Philippe Augustus. So both of my statements are true.
Besides this battle, what victories of France over the HRE are there in the middle ages (pre 1500)? I keep hearing about them but cannot find any.
>>1051932
The dude you're replying to confused with Richard, so he's obviously wrong, but
>Norman french
Can you please stop with this buttpained denial?
Henry V was an Angevin king, not a Norman one
His second language was regular Old French
>>1051893
Sure, take a look babby boy.
The rest of your post is trash, you can't even name the battle (of Pavia) and you probably don't even know that at this time the Middle Ages are already over, dumbass.
>>1051932
You have no idea of what you're talking about.
>. The fact that his administration was the first to speak/write 100% in english would say otherwise.
What? The English law has been written in French until the 16th century!
Pathetic ignoramus running his mouth once again
>>1051953
It shows that most German land was stolen during the 17th century
Louis XIV =/= Middle Age
>>1051893
>the Holy Roman Emperor personally captured the King of France and put him in a monkey cage.
The King of France was also captured during the Battle of Poitiers.
What is it with French rulers and their habit of getting themselves captured?
>>1051953
What conflicts are there pertaining to? Just because they lost territory doesn't mean it was by conquest or military victory.
>>1051943
They never fought directly, evn though the capetian did destroy the remnant of the Staufen dynasty in Italy.
The french kingdom did expand on what were german fiefs and gained the upper hand at least diplomatically. (Lyon, Dauphiné, Provence were all part of the HRE)
>>1051970
Exactly, the French-German conflict started with the Thirty Years War.
>>1051974
Getting caught is part of their plan
>>1051970
You do understand that at the beginning, in 985, all the lands east of France were part of the HRE. Provence, Barrois, Savoy, half of Burgundy, etc. That's about 1/3 of the current size of France.
>German lands
lel
>>1051974
>What is it with French rulers and their habit of getting themselves captured?
The french king is supposed to be on the battlefield. It has been this way since the middle ages. Philip II was fighting at Bouvines, all the kings of France did that, even Louis XIV was participating at some sieges.
>>1051974
French Kings are foppish dandies and terrible rulers.
That's why the Ducs were the real powers.
>>1051760
>>1051792
>>1051979
>The french kingdom did expand on what were german fiefs and gained the upper hand at least diplomatically.
So the HRE land that the French gained in the middle ages was via diplomacy, not war?
>>1051947
>Can you please stop with this buttpained denial?
>Henry V was an Angevin king, not a Norman one
>His second language was regular Old French
m8, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Henry ii's (first '''''''angevin''''''' king) mother was matilda, who was norman. The whole fucking english aristocracy was norman. Just because Henry ii's fucking father was angevin doesn't mean that the plantagenet kings were angevin. In fact, they were completely norman. Their power base was in normandy, not anjou. They had no ties in anjou, especially after they lost it in the early 13th century. They were completely norman culturally, and there is actually written evidence that they spoke and wrote in norman french, not old french.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language
Link related, all anglo norman kings spoke this language, and this is what i meant by 'norman french'
Dose it really matter?
>>1051961
m8. you're a fucking idiot, just stop trying, pierre.
>What? The English law has been written in French until the 16th century!
No. Law was written in latin and anglo norman, then english by the 15th century. Dumb frog
>>1052016
Are you seriously stupid enough to think that there was a normalized French back then?
Norman is basically a French dialect, it's basically Old French. Stop deluding yourself, the Normans were completely Francisised and had nothing to do with muh vikings nor with the english peasantry they despised. Stop deluding yourself.
>>1052008
I don't think there were any wars between France and the HRE, though it came close at some point (under Louis VI).
>>1052031
Exactly, there were DIFFERENT DIALECTS, including a NORMAN dialect. Not that hard to understand. Fucking idiot...
>>1052042
Different dialects of FRENCH. Which says a lot about their culture.
>Fucking idiot...
If that makes you sleep at night, britboy
>>1052016
No, you're just full of shit
>Henry ii's (first '''''''angevin''''''' king) mother was matilda, who was norman. The whole fucking english aristocracy was norman. Just because Henry ii's fucking father was angevin doesn't mean that the plantagenet kings were angevin.
Culture was transmitted by the father's side
Matilda left Normandy and went to live in Anjou, where her sons were raised
Henry II was as much of a Norman as Louis XVI's son was Austrian
>Their power base was in normandy, not anjou.
The power base at the time of the Angevin Empire was Anjou, not Normandy
Normandy was a colony, just like England
>especially after they lost it in the early 13th century
They lost Anjou at the same time they lost Normandy, you utter retard
>They were completely norman culturally
Norman culture was almost identical to French one by 1066, let alone two centuries later
>and there is actually written evidence that they spoke and wrote in norman french, not old french.
No there are none
Stop making up shit
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language
A term invented by butthurt British historians in a vain attempt to deny their French heritage
The article itself defines it as an "Oil language", which is basically Old French and all its dialects
>>1052033
Pretty much. The other European countries too though.
>>1052052
Which is why i said NORMAN FRENCH
>NORMAN
>FRENCH
Say it with me
>NORMAN
>FRENCH
Not the same thing, pierre. In fact, there were significant differences between dialects. Regardless, by the reign of Henry V, the whole upper class and king spoke middle english
>>1052033
Yeah. That's the peculiar thing that i was wondering about. Why did essentially all of medieval culture radiate from france?
Reminder that the Plantagenet kings spoke "Gallo-Angevin French" and not "Norman French"
>>1052064
Do these themes come from the Frankish Empire? How come Germany didn't have more of these themes then?
>>1052084
Actually, normand, retard
>>1052071
Getting irritated, boy?
You have to understand something.
NORMAN = FRENCH
Basically, once you get that inside your brain you'll finally acknowledge your status of French colony and stop being so butthurt whenever the word "France" comes up.
>>1052087
Germany had them too of course. They were come up with in France however.
>HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER ANGLOS ARE -STILL- ASSBLASTED TO HELL ABOUT FRANCE
>>1052090
Nope
The Norman kings (1066-1154) spoken Norman French
The Angevin kings (1154-1485) spoke Angevin French
>>1052097
>>1052092
>french autism
>>1052100
>The Angevin kings (1154-1485) spoke Angevin French
low quality bait. As i already explained, the whole english upper class was already norman, and henry ii's mother was norman. He was raised as a norman and spoke norman french. He had to speak norman french, because the english upper class was completely norman to begin with
>>1052103
>french
Why not use the synonym, "anglo-norman"?
>>1051774
France was massively influenced by Italy during the 16th century though.
Well "french soldiers" radiated from france to italy but well...
>>1052095
Do you know what regions in France the archetype medieval culture originates from?
>>1052124
Really, tell me how he would've managed as king of england, surrounded by english nobles who only spoke norman french, if he spoke angevin french. It would've been impossible
>>1052125
It depends on what you're looking for. In regards to the chivalric tournament for example the court of Burgundy was most influential.
>>1052125
It depends. Gothic architecture started in the north of France. Troubadours are from the south though. So it depends what you're looking for.
>>1052125
The regions of Ile de France and the surroundings: Normandy, Anjou, Burgundy...
>>1052130
Yeah
I sure wonder how Brits manage to study in America without speaking American English
>>1052097
Their ancestors would be proud.
>>1052130
Both dialects are perfectly understandable by each parts.
>>1052132
>court of Burgundy
Actually burgundy as an independent entity wasn't really relevant until the late middle ages. For most of the middle ages, and when chivalry was in its heyday, burgundy wasnt noteworthy
>>1052100
>The Angevin kings (1154-1485) spoke Angevin French
Nonono, Henry II most likely, Richard spoke mostly Occitan due his connection to Aquitaine and John I can't speak for sure.
Henry III onwards were more "domestically" and more in touch with their underlings speaking Norman French or """"""English"""""".
It's a bit sad /his/ is mostly talking about the anglo-french wars in the middle ages with a nationalist perspective. Those wars weren't between nations, but between individuals. And seriously, the 100 years war is really interesting. You have so many fascinating figures during that period, you're waisting your time trying to figure who won, if the normans were french etc.
>>1052156
>Richard spoke mostly Occitan due his connection to Aquitaine
His spoke both Occitan and Old French (which was his native language)
>>1052175
>Those wars weren't between nations, but between individuals.
French individuals I may add
Regardless of how English the conscript peasants they used were
>>1052141
Actually it would be more like a guy born in america, who's family has lived in america for hundreds of years, who still doesn't speak the same type of english as the locals. Also, this is a false equivalence because there were more difference between norman french and angevin french than between american and british english. Fucking retard
>>1052147
>as an independent entity
Burgundy only became dependant in 1434 with the treaty of Arras, they obtained it by siding with the England against the French crown during the 100 years war. In 1477, the Duchy was divided between Habsburgs (as HRE emperors) and Louis XI, the French king after the death of Charles the Bold in Nancy. That's just 33 years.
>>1052175
>anglo-french wars
Let me correct you: French dynastic wars. That's what it is.
For the rest, you're right.
Is /his/ the board with the most Frogs in all 4chan?
I recall the /int/ poll people mostly being Amerifats and Anglos.
>>1052175
>Those wars weren't between nations
It was actually the beginning of wars between nations. There is a clear distinction between the 100 years wars and the earlier feudal war. Big difference
>>1052206
/his/ is about history, if you have some knowledge and intellectual honesty you get pretty irritated with the french surrender monkey meme. I say that as a Swiss.
>>1052190
>Also, this is a false equivalence because there were more difference between norman french and angevin french than between american and british english.
That's false though
Literally just a bunch of different spellings and a few varying idioms - Just like with American and British English
What the hell did you think "Norman French" was? A whole different language?
>>1052212
>It was actually the beginning of wars between nations
Absolutely.
French and English nationalism were born in the 100 years wars. This explains why we like to tickle each others testicles so much.
>>1052217
t. French Swiss
>>1052228
>French and English nationalism were born in the 100 years wars.
In the imagination of 19th century nationalists perhaps.
>>1052229
I have no loyalty for France, I am a French speaking Swiss. I speak English too.
>>1052234
You need to learn the difference between nations and nation-states. Nations pre existed nationalism.
>>1052212
Debatable. Or at least, it certainly wasn't the case in the first stages of the war. You can only see the nationalist aspect in the very end : when the english parliament refused to continue what they view mostly as the king's policy.
>>1052206
If you have ever browsed /int/, you know that Frenchboos are far from all being French
Britboos on the other hand are almost always British or Canadians
I remember threads about 1066 or the HYW on /int/, you had people with many different flags defending France and a few British dudes getting butthurt at everyone else
At some point, seeing that everyone was against them, the Brits would post "success breeds jealousy" and stop debating
>>1052234
>>1052228
The kings of england and the nobility adopted english as their main language over the course of the wars. They began to use the cross of st george as a symbol to identify themselves. Their was a lot of animosity on both sides against the enemy due to chevauchees and other raids carried out on civilian populations. It absolutely became a proto nationalist war.Anyone who says otherwise is simply ignorant of the nature of the war beyond its simple facts and is unable to see the cultural implications and effects of the war
>>1052242
What are you talking about then? Nations or nationalism? Maybe it's you who needs to learn the difference.
>>1052237
>I am a French speaking Swiss.
And thus you were socialised in the Francosphere.
>>1052243
Certainly by the treaty of bretigny it had become a proto nation conflict. French peasants despised the english for destroying and looting the countryside, and this animosity of the french in general towards the english originates from the hundred years war and chevauchees
>>1052246
>At some point, seeing that everyone was against them, the Brits would post "success breeds jealousy" and stop debating
Probably because success does breed jealousy.
>>1052250
>The kings of england and the nobility adopted english as their main language over the course of the wars.
And the Normans spoke French by 1066
I bet it means they were French nationalist
>>1052270
In 1066 the foreigners completely displaced the native aristocracy and replaced them with their own norman aristocracy. The same aristocracy VOLUNTARILY switched to english during the hundred years war. Because they didn't want to speak the language of the enemy. They had been thoroughly anglicized by that point
>>1051610
good natural conditions + was civilized by Gauls and Romans + good geographical conditions (both Atlantic and Mediterranean, etc.)
>>1051990
The HRE gained Flanders though. And Flanders was richer and more relevant than all the lands they lost combined.
french fucking shits are nothing to me
I think the headstart is that gaul had great road network thanks to romans.
That way it's easier to have centralized power, as roads are property and charge of the king. Road network also makes travel and business easier, which is great for making money and war.
Who /greatestknightofalltime/, aka /GKOAT/ here?
>>1053100
He was cucked at poitiers. Top kek. So much for being a good knight. By far the best knights were the english. William Marshal and knights like john chandos and james audley come to mind as being the best
>>1052324
>good natural conditions
>good geographical conditions
but the kingdom of france didn't cover anywhere near the same area as modern day france. If anything, it only covered a small portion for most of the middle ages, and even at the end it was split by major factions. The French typically held the north and central parts of france, not necessarily all under the same ruler, while the english held much of the south, and sometimes the english held brittany and normandy, as in the hundred years war
>was civilized by Gauls and Romans
Pretty irrelevant considering the dark ages happened
>>1051760
>>1051792
>H
>R
>E
Because our image of the Middle Ages was formed by people who were more influenced from French culture.
>>1053130
>died in battle protecting his king, killing the first man to ever lay a hand on the king's bridle, while wielding a lance blessed and adorned with the greatest chivalric honour of France
>not a good knight
>>1053130
You're aware that Williame le Mareschal was French, right?
And anyway, the best knight was Bayard
>>1055272
>>1051988
underated asf
>>1054375
I can't believe it took this long for someone to say it. The French (and increasingly, the English) Middle Ages were distilled to form the "Medieval" culture of our imagination. Those who try to rationalize why Medieval France best resembled the platonic Medieval ideal got it completely backward.
>>1055272
Actually he was Norman and claimed to be English
>>1051610
Because lots of people lived there.
>>1057123
>Norman
That's what I said, French
>>1051776
Jesus christ, King John got cucked hard by Philip Augustus
>>1051610
Eh. Feudalism was invented by the French, but it was applied much better by the English.
>>1057026
And how about the fact the crusaders came from France ? That the gothic architecture that spread around Europe came from France too. It was also France that defeated and submitted the pope.
