How do we reconcile Christianity with the theory of evolution by the process of natural selection?
Jesus serves no purpose without a literal Adam, Eve, and Fall from Grace.
I await your input.
Evolution is illusion created by Satan.
>>1030539
They don't disagree
Adam and Eve is a metaphor
Original sin is a metaphor for our flawed nature
>>1030549
Jesus died for a metaphor?
You can't reconcile.
The world is 6,000 years old, dinosaurs never existed, evolution is a Satanic lie, and God created everything as it is right now.
If you disagree with me you must be an atheist communist Marxist liberal funded by George Soros with a Cultural Marxist Frankfurt School agenda.
>>1030552
Are you stupid
What is the metaphor about?
The fall from grace is when apes become men, leading to the birth of sacrificial religion. It's completely compatible.
>>1030549
>>1030539
If there is no real origenal sin than what's the point of Jesus's death?
Are humans born sinless only commit sin later in life? If so why ever have children? Their souls start out as sinless and saved and than when you bring them into this world you expose them to sin? Having children would be risking them losing their salvation.
>>1030557
Jesus died so that our innate sin could be forgiven. If original sin is a metaphor then Jesus died for a metaphor.
>>1030539
http://www.strangenotions.com/monogenism-or-polygenism-the-question-of-human-origins/
>>1030558
Men are apes by definition
>>1030555
>dinosaurs never existed
They did.
The word "dinosaur" didn't exist until the 18th century.
Before that, they were called dragons.
>>1030578
Well... He resurrected himself so his death also an a metaphor. Perfectly logical explanation.
There is no such thing as "evolution", it's a myth that has been debunked years ago.
We all come from Adam.
>THEORY of Evolution vs FACT of Creation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xBWPiJLnFw
>Evolution Debunked
http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html
>Evolution is the Greatest Deception
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMr278CMAIA
>Kent Hovind debunks Evolution (18 hours)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shyI-aQaXD0
>Evolution is a modern fairy tale
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjvuwne0RrE
>The Greatest Lie Ever Told
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ufK04tjOI
>Overwhelming Evidence for the Great Flood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lktmmd7YnD8
>Dinosaurs are not millions of years old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niDCq3TbvOo
The Biblical worldview is the truth.
>>1030586
That quote of yours has been debunked how many times now?
>>1030576
>>1030578
Morons
What does the metaphor seek to explain
Do you think they just thought up original sin one day when they were playing with their assholes?
No dumbassses
The metaphor seeks to explain that all men are born with a corrupted soul by nature
That doesn't change the meaning of the story in any way
It just means the origin of original sin is not as the bible describes
But that doesn't fucking matter because the story wasn't made to explain its origin just to explain we are all corrupted
think
I mean actually THINK retards
>>1030593
Impressive! Eight hours long videos and zero compelling arguments against evolution.
>>1030603
Darwinism has been literally torn apart.
it has nothing to stand on.
>>1030600
>The metaphor seeks to explain that all men are born with a corrupted soul by nature
Ok how does it explain it? What causes our "courrupted soul" were we born this way? Because if so than God intionally created corrupted being.
Even if thousands of years ago some humans did something that pissed off God that wouldn't alter our DNA.
>>1030608
No shit. This is why science agrees with Neo-Darwinism.
>>1030586
But evolution is the foundation of biology and modern medicine is based on biology. Nothing makes sense in biology without evolution.
http://creation.com/faith-and-facts
http://evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4517-how-easy-is-evolution-to-debunk/
https://answersingenesis.org/theory-of-evolution/top-ten-myths-about-evolution/
>>1030621
Ad populum logical fallacy, appeal to authority, etc.
Soviet scientists agreed with Communism.
German scientists agreed with National Socialism.
What's your point?
>>1030539
Garden = nature under natural selection
or, the environment that produced anatomically modern humans
Tree of knowledge = technology/intelligence/agriculture
After humanity acquired agriculture, they were "cast out" from the garden, and forced to toil in the fields endlessly. So, man went from natural selection to artificial selection, that was the single event that changed human history. That is, acquiring knowledge/agriculture and ceasing to be hunter gatherers one with nature to being the controllers of nature.
"Adam" literally means "Man". As in, mankind. I doubt the original writers were aware of all this and probably took a literal interpretation.
>>1030619
Do you think I'm god
THINK FAGGOT
I don't know the origin of all things
But if you can't look at the world and see that we are by nature sinners then you are an even bigger dumbass than I though
>God created intentionally corrupted beings
YOU DONT SAY
>what is free will
>>1030625
No it's not.
That's like saying beer is the foundation of sports.
You don't need beer to watch sports.
People have been studying biology and medicine for thousands of years before Darwin existed.
>>1030633
Scientist's agreement with political ideas are not authoritative because politics is not an empirical science.
>>1030633
> Ad populum logical fallacy, appeal to authority, etc.
My point here is that is doesn't matter how much Darwinism was torn apart because evolution from science is not from Darwinism.
It is like arguing against chemistry by saying that alchemy is wrong. No shit. This is why science is about chemistry and wasn't alchemy based.
>>1030638
So what you are telling me is that it's a metaphor but you don't know what it it is a metaphor for?
>what is free will
But angels have free will and are far less prone to sin. It's generally understood nothing tainted with sin can be in the presense of God. Angels are in the presense of God so they are sinnless.
So God can create something that both has free will and is not prone to sin. Why did he fuck up with humans?
>>1030539
Adam and Eve were the first Humans.
Prior to that there were many homonid species.
All those species came about due to evolution.
All those species lacked souls.
Adam and Eve had souls.
Adam and Eve were the first hominids given souls.
The soul made humans greater than the animals and immune to death.
The Fall corrupted Humans and made them vulnerable to death.
It made them as though they had no souls.
>>1030641
Why guy here is soviet? Soviets doesn't believe in evolution because natural selection is capitalistic. It is better for their agenda if you can train people to cooperate and shit.
>>1030651
>The world is a sphere
>"NO IT'S NOT YOU STUPID IDIOT, LOOK AT ALL THESE SCIENTISTS THEY BELIEVE THE EARTH IS FLAT! YOU'RE A HERETIC!"
Your logic is retarded.
Provide me facts and evidence to support your worldview, not appeals to authority.
>>1030660
Are you retarded?
Darwinism paved the way to Marxism, Socialism, Atheism, Humanism and Relativism/Pluralism.
>>1030638
> what is free will
Another cop out? You could choose between one good act and another. Being corrupted isn't really necessary for free will.
>>1030659
So are Souls made from DNA or do they just fall out of the sky?
If they are made from DNA this has some really interesting properties. Imagine being able to use genetic engineering to change our souls.
If they are not made from DNA how does a person get a soul when they are born? Is it breathed into them like some sort of Gnostic divine spark?
>>1030641
>Because virology, bacteriology, or anything involving DNA would be possible without the theory of evolution.
lel
your ignorance is incredible
t. scientist
First you have to define what you mean with "evolution".
It has like 6 different meanings.
The only "evolution" that has been observed is variations/micro-evolution. There can be many variations of a dog, but it always stays a dog.
The idea of an animal turning into another animal is completely unscientific. There is no proof for it whatsoever.
>>1030663
> Stars doesn't exist because astrology has been literally torn apart!
I am here not to defend evolution but to point out how retarded your argument are. Darwinism was literally irrelevant in modern evolutionary science.
>>1030684
Kent Hovind has already debunked your argument m8
DNA and fossils point towards the Bible being true. Especially 'Neanderthal' skulls (pre-flood man).
>>1030654
God you are stupid
How many times do I have to tell you
ORIGINAL SIN IS A METAPHOR FOR OUR CORRUPTED NATURE
get it?
You probably still don't dumbass
>angles have free will and are less prone to sin
>who is Satan and his demons
Oh I get it now
You have absolutely no understanding of the bible AT ALL
Okay man just stop
If you can't understand the simple concept that
>man is not good by nature
>he is usually bad by nature
>he needs someone to save him from himself
>that person is Jesus
Then you will never understand the bible
evolution is a joke.
it has been proven wrong and yet its pushed in our school system to brainwash kids into believing they are nothing but animals.
the occult/freemasons want the world to deny God so that they can bring in their Antichrist
its all part of Satan's plan that he has worked for so long. the only way his plan will work is if people don't believe in the bible.
>>1030669
> Are you retarded?
Why do you think Lysenko was so popular? Entire capitalistic economy was based on competition so theory that says that competition is major force for biological progress is going against all soviet ideas in its core.
>>1030674
>choosing to do bad things
>not free will
>>1030691
> pre-flood man
Flood never happened and physically impossible.
>>1030685
>It has like 6 different meanings.
In what parrelel universe?
>The only "evolution" that has been observed is variations/micro-evolution. There can be many variations of a dog, but it always stays a dog.
Species difference is a human construct, a species changes from one to another when it meets human invented criteria for what constitutes a species. All large scale evolution is just the culimination of many micro evolutionst
>Macroevolution can be seen as the sum of periods of microevolution, and thus the two are qualitatively identical while being quantitatively different.
>>1030710
>Flood never happened
Yes it did. Look up the 'Hydroplate theory'.
>physically impossible
How?
>>1030708
You can have choice without choice between good and evil. You don't need to choose between Hitler and Jesus on president votes.
>>1030680
One could jnterpret "God breathed life into Adam" as "God gave this particular homonid a spiritual reality called 'a soul.'"
However, it is not a Divine Spark as the soul is nowhere near God in nature. It is merely the spiritual reality of Mankind. Just as Angels are purely spiritual beings but not Divine, humans are spiritual and physical beings but not divine.
>>1030703
The fact remains that millions of angels have lived trillions of years and never commited a sin. Something no human has done.
Clearly God is capable of creating species that are have a very high resistance to sin, something he intionally did not design humans with.
Better yet, why not just create more Gods. God himself has both free will and no sin nature? Is God capable of creating other being such as himself (if not than he is not all powerful).
The fact is that God had several different natures to pick from when creating life: his own nature, angel's nature, human nature. He intionally choose a sin-prone one.
>>1030703
>ORIGINAL SIN IS A METAPHOR FOR OUR CORRUPTED NATURE
If god is perfect and original sin never happened then he created us corrupted to begin with. That's fucking RETARDED.
He had to send his son who is also himself to commit suicide to fix our corrupted nature even though he made us that way in the first place. What the fuck is wrong with you?
>>1030725
Being serious this time
Have you picked up a bible?
Like, ever?
>>1030715
> How?
Where all of this water now?
Magically disappeared?
>>1030719
So is a soul put into a person's body at certain point in their life or are they born with a soul.
If they are born with a soul than souls must be related to DNA.
If they the soul needs to be inserted at which point does this happen? Does it happen the first time a cell divides? The first time sperm fertilizes an egg? The first trimester? At birth?
>>1030691
>Kent Hovind has already debunked your argument m8
>one deranged man with a shit degree from an online degree mill vs. pretty much every other scientist in the world
Hahahahahahaha
>>1030733
Bible doesn't explain shit and there is no reason to believe various commentaries.
>>1030684
>bacteriology would be possible without the theory of evolution
not so, they first observed bacteria in 1676.
>>1030736
It's called oceans you retard.
Look on a map, the world consists mostly of water. That wasn't the case before the flood.
>>1030733
Are you capable of answering the question or not.
I can tell you one thing about the bible. Origenal sin does not exist in the old testament. It's a 2nd centuary concept. There was no history of the idea existing until than.
>>1030747
Butthurt atheist tard detected
your monkey religion got debunked, stay mad
>>1030539
We don't. You can't reconcile Biblical facts with man-made lies.
You are going by the assumption that evolution is true, which it is not.
>>1030755
I answered your questions assuming you are the guy I've been calling a dumbass the last couple post
You are just too stupid or arrogant to accept my answers
>>1030771
You have evaded the question. Perhaps you cannot answer it.
God had 3 natures he could have picked from when creating humans. His own nature which never sins, angel's nature of which 2/3s of angels lead sinless lives, or human nature which cannot lead a sinless life. All 3 of these natures are also capable of free will.
Why would God intentionally choose the nature that is most sin-prone?
>>1030754
> That wasn't the case before the flood.
So... All of this water magically *appeared* instead? Nice way to prove my point retard.
>>1030770
Evolution was literally observed in nature thousand times. God's miracles aren't observed even once.
>>1030754
How do you know that?
>>1030758
why would I be mad when I'm 100% right?
>>1030790
Poor bait.
>>1030741
Most contemporary theologians believe ensoulment happens at conception.
A soul does not need to be, and is not, related exclusively to DNA, it can have a connection but only insofar as Body and Soul are perfectly intertwined. if anything we don't completley know how it works beyond "it does." Or at least if the Cathlodoxy does I don't know it of the top of my head.
Yes Orthobros, I'm lumping us together but only because we both put actual thought into this stuff unlike the Protestants.
Assuming you are trying to find the physical reality of the soul, good fucking luck. Finding the physical reality of a spiritual reality is like finding the blueness of the color red. Logically impossible.
>>1030663
Scientists didn't ever think the earth was flat
That's an enlightenment myth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohd5uqzlwsU
>>1030780
Was that your question?
We can not know his motivation for anything
Trying to understand it is useless
The same question could be made if God is all powerful why not just make everyone exactly like himself and avoid all the sin, dumb humans, devil, demons, and angles
We don't know
>>1030798
Well... You can't really argue with facts. So yes. It is poor bait. Bait should distort facts not state them.
>>1030816
> We don't know
We know.
Because there is no god.
Make everyone like him would be best option.
>>1030816
the choice to have the nature of angels with free will and less likelihood to commit sin is objectively better. there is no reason for humans to have a less perfect nature. we don't know doesn't cut it
>>1030827
There is a God
All this fucking bait related to science.
>>>/sci/
Go there please christcuks
>>1030827
>>1030830
>it would be his best option to make everyone exactly like him
You don't know that
You have absolutely no way of knowing that and pretending you do proves you can even understand the concept of God in the right way
Or in other words you are too stupid to understand the concept of God all together
>>1030838
Maybe there is corrupt one or apathetic to humans and their life.
ITT: filthy heathens use the lie of evilution to deny God and deny the responsibilities that come with it
Just admit it, unbelievers. You don't want to face up to the responsibilities and the debt you owe to your creator. Threads like these demonstrate why we desperately need something like pic related.
Christians should take over society and ban everything that promotes sinful behavior. We must rule, centralize, manage and control according to the Holy Scriptures. Every aspect of society should be under our control, to prevent the filth we see like in this thread, and on this site. In fact, we should probably start with this site. Us Christians should make a concentrated effort to turn 4chan into the internet hub of Global Christianity
>>1030858
I believe in evolution and God
It's not an issue
>>1030858
This guy first proposed the Big Bang theory.
What now? Are you going to scream "muh Whore of Babylon!" like a fucking retard?
I can't tell who is trolling who.
I'm sorry for making this thread. I was hoping for a purely theological exercise.
>>1030867
Of course he is that's the troll who has no legitimate arguments in his favor and unabashedly ignores anything said by the opposition. I've debunked shit he's said multiple times but he just repeats his memes
>>1030855
sin is bad yes? free will is good yes? less sin and free will is by christian theological standards better. we know that God can create beings with free will and less sin than us. this means that objectively our nature is worse than what it could have been. really you just want to use "you can't know" as a way to dodge any ability to make any analysis of your religion
>>1030855
> You don't know that
Try to name one better state of existence for being that in not existence as the God. You can't do this and if you believe that there is one... Then you just doesn't understand concept of God, retard.
>>1030867
Jesus fucking THIS. If you don't believe in evolution because of "muh bible" you are a legitimate retard. Plenty of religious people accept science. Many of them are scientists themselves.
>>1030858
Nice Christian role-playing here! Can I accuse all of them for being heathens too?.. It isn't like faith could be more than a game at this point.
>>1030816
If your theology cannot handle basic questions why should I take any of this seriously? God intionally choose fallible human nature over superior angel or God nature (both of which are more resistant to sin and contain free will), knowing full well he would need to commit a ritual suicide in order to redeem the very nature he choose to have. The very center tenant of the religion is a giant plot.
This also raises further question. If God nature is completely resistant to the urge to sin than why did he bother with the angels in the first place who only have a 2/3rds success rate?
Maybe it's God's nature that is flawed?
>>1030878
The problem is that the church, both Orthodox and Catholic, hasn't always been accommodating towards evolution.
The Church Fathers themselves (and yes that includes Augustine) did not reach a consensus on whether or not Genesis was "literal", however we have every reason to believe they taught that all mankind was descended from an 'Adam' who lived about 6000 years ago. This touches on the doctrine of biblical inerrancy however that topic is probably beyond the scope of this thread.
>>1030593
You scare me
>>1030903
Adam can exist 6000 years ago while the Earth can be 6 billion years old.
Plus you sound like the Church fathers had radio carbon dating or something.
>>1030912
If your answer to the problem of evil is that God is an evil being than I can agree with you. This could be a logical theological position.
>>1030539
God is the great watch maker in the sky, he set everything up at the beginning and is now just sits back and watches. He created the primordial ooze and the right conditions for us to evolve to be what we are today. Every now and then he comes in and fixes a gear or two (see Moses and Jesus), but for the most part is completely hands off.
>>1030912
>You guys are under that assumption that God wants to provide us with the most comfortable life possible
no I was under the assumption God doesn't want us to sin. that has fuck all to do with Job, which by the way has an absolutely shitty message of u cant no nuffin
>>1030703
You do not have to believe in a literal Genesis but you do have to believe in Adam and Eve and "The Fall" if you're Catholic or Orthodox. That shit is doctrine, and they have anathematized people who argued against it.
>>1030914
If Adam existed 6000 years ago then there is no way that "original sin" could have spread to the entire human race by the time Jesus came to earth.
>>1030914
>Plus you sound like the Church fathers had radio carbon dating or something.
it doesn't matter that they didn't know the correct age of the universe, what matters is they used the bible for a source for the age of the universe, thus taking it literally
>>1030539
Catholics can believe in theistic evolution, but Adam and Eve have to be real and the first homosapiens to gain a soul.
Scientifically it's probably not perfect after all the question remains did Neanderthal have souls?
>>1030917
>provides you with every opportunity to save yourself and repent
>"it's his fault that I don't want to take responsibility for my actions and repent"
I bet you blame your mommy and daddy for all your issues too
>>1030637
This is actually closer to the interpretation the "writers" of Genesis were going for but this is absolutely not how the Church has interpreted it.
>>1030946
Please. You still havn't addressed the problem that God had 3 natures to choose from.
A God nature which cannot sin.
An angel nature which has a 2/3rds chance to not sin
A human nature which has a 100% rate of sin.
What God did is the equivelent of rolling a 6 sided dice and complaining he didn't get a 20.
>>1030943
The ONLY thing you have to do to be saved is give yourself to Jesus whole heartedly and the rest will fall into place
You don't have to be perfect to enter heaven
If that was the case no human would ever make it
That's why Jesus sacrificed himself
He takes your place In front of God on your day of judgement
The only thing you have to do is try
Not be perfect
>>1030944
That's an interesting question
>>1030625
>Nothing makes sense in biology without evolution.
Or in the words of evolutionary biologist and Orthodox Christian Theodosius Grygorovych Dobzhansky:
"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution"
>>1030953
Do you think God owes you something?
He gave you life and you complain you weren't made an angle or God
>he must be evil if he didn't make me in the best form possible
Pathetic really
>>1030946
Wow! God provides me with every opportunity to save my life from world that he created to be that bad that I am in need to be saved. Instead of just saving me directly. It isn't like he can't do that or there is some force that can stop him.
> I don't want to take responsibility
I do literally this because God doesn't exist. If he was real and good he would just solve literally all our problems because it would be best for any of us. He isn't real therefore I am responsible.
>>1030979
did he not provide you with everything you need to fix your own problems
Go yell at your parents for not bringing your pizza rolls to your room and hand feeding them to you while you play World of Warcraft faggot
>>1030978
>Do you think God owes you something?
No because I don't think he exists, also I think the concept of sin makes no sense. I don' want anything from your God. What you have is a plot hole that you have failed to explain.
God wants there to be sinless beings that have free will. He is already such a person. So why not clone himself? Instead he creates angels, knowing that only 2/3rds will be sinless and have free will. Than he creates humans, because God knows the future God knows 100% of them will sin. This seems to be against his origenal plan of creating sinless free will beings.
>>1030999
Nope
>>1030978
>Do you think God owes you something?
it isn't a matter of owing me anything, it's a matter of him doing a worse job than he could've done. I don't even believe he exists, let alone owes me anything. this is a refutation of your supposed perfect being
>>1030944
>the question remains did Neanderthal have souls?
Answer: No
>>1031008
He didn't
>>1030995
> Did he not provide you with everything you need to fix your own problems
He isn't. Where is my elixir of immortality?! Death is biggest problem of any human. There is no way and no recipes to solve it no matter how hard you can work.
>>1030999
What a waste of trips
>God wants sinless beings
You have the slightest understanding of anything
Just think about it logically for a second
If God wanted humans to be sin free he would have made us that way
Make sense so far?
Now if he is all powerful he could have made us like that right?
Did I lose you yet?
So it must naturally follow God did not want to make us perfect or else he would have done so
I hope your brain hasn't exploded yet
Okay now here is the real kicker so prepare your brain
If he didn't make us perfect it must be because
HERE IT COMES
HE DOESNT WANT US TO BE PERFECT
He has other plans for us
I can already hear your Cheeto fingers typing away saying
>this proves God is le evil
Now remember God provided us with a book that would teach us how to live properly
IF WE WANT TO
He sent his son to help us
IF WE WANT TO ACCEPT THE HELP
>>1031019
Everything dies
Your problem is you assume that dying is a problem
>>1030946
He damns billions and billions of people by making people imperfect in the first place.
>>1031008
>worse job than he could have done
Do you think God made a mistake when he made animals dumber than man
Do you think God hates animals because he didn't make them as smart as us
No everything serves its purpose
>>1031075
So you do blame your mommy and daddy for everything
Okay
>>1031051
>Now remember God provided us with a book that would teach us how to live properly
>IF WE WANT TO
>He sent his son to help us
>IF WE WANT TO ACCEPT THE HELP
Modern humans gave been on the earth 200,000 years and he sent his "son" to a tiny sliver of the population a mere 2,000 years ago.
>inb4 the earth is 6000 years old
look, if we didn't understand atoms well enough to date things radiometrically then we wouldn't understand them well enough to produce radios, televisions, cellphones, computers, refrigerators, microwaves, MRI machines, the atom bomb, superconductors, and just about every piece of technology that makes your life so easy.
>>1031051
>God doesn't want us to be perfect
ok
>He wants us to be something else
But he won't just snap his fingers and make it happen.
>He's still all powerful though
Huh?
>But he needs YOU to do it for him
LOL
>He suffered on the cross and cut his wrists for you. Please just do what he says
Aww =-( Poor God. He was persicuted by the Jews! Boo hoo! This isn't God being "evil" it's him using the tactics of a woman.
>>1031051
And if he had made us perfect, we wouldn't need help in the first place. That's like shoving someone down a well and then complaining when they're not grateful that they only need to give you all their money so you'll save them from drowning.
>>1031051
So God wants people to sin is what you are saying. Is this some kind of twisted game then? God tells you not to do this or that but he has made it so that you are incapable of resisting the urge to do at least some of the things on the no no list. So then God has to sacrifice himself to free people of the burden that he placed on them by making them in their nature sinful. How is this logical? We're back to where we started: if God wanted us to not sin and sin keeps us from being in communion with God, why not just make us have the less sinful nature of angels so he doesn't have to sacrifice Jesus later?
>>1031084
>what is the book of nature
You truly are an uneducated fool
>>1031110
I'm sorry you never learned to read
>>1031112
That's nothing alike faggot
>>1031114
God wants you to give yourself to him
That's it
>>1031082
No, I'm just pointing out that if Christian god exists, he's evil by any reasonable definition of the word. He's perfect and omnipotent, therefore any and all suffering is completely his fault.
>>1031051
One book and one guy that doesn't even helped as much as he could hardly matter here. There is just so many problems that no human could even hope to solve no matter how perfectly he acted. It would be fair if there was at least in theory a solutions of any problems that you can choose or ignore. That isn't the case. For example only God could stop a natural disaster to kill thousands of humans. Well, he doesn't use his power to prevent any of them or save humans and God is responsible for disasters.
>>1031122
It is. It's exactly like that, you're just willingly blinding yourself from the truth.
>>1031128
>I decide you torture you to death
>I decide to use shady business practices to steal people's money
>I decide to do something bad
>this is gods fault
Make a separate thread if you want to discuss theodicy faggots
>>1031065
God enjoys his infinite life while humans dying left and right. If being mortal was good god would be a mortal being too.
>>1031137
Yes. God could have made you perfect so you wouldn't desire to do any of those things. Or he could just stop you.
>>1031133
You act like you have to sacrifice all your money and first born son to be saved
All you have to do is accept him in your heart
Are you telling me that's the same as extortion
If so you are retarded
>>1031115
>You truly are an uneducated fool
I have an advanced degree in physics with minors in bichemistry and mathematics. Suck my dick you internet-"educated" armchair /pol/tard
>>1031127
> God wants you to give yourself to him
This sadistic interrogation hardly made him good.
>>1030552
If its any comfort Jesus, at least as depicted in the bible, probably never existed. Even in the bible he is depicted as conducting a raid on the Temple attacking merchants and then retreating beyond the walls with a group of armed men who then take up arms against the Romans when they arrive to apprehend the culprits. In the Roman legal system that would have been more than enough to warrant his execution. So if there was a historical Jesus he probably was an insurrectionist who died for his crimes.
The Jesus as law abiding Roman citizen angle may be a later invention as Christians after several generations attempted to play down their radical beginnings and re-integrate into Roman society. Its possible this is what was originally intended in the scene where the crowd in Jerusalem is asked to pick between Jesus Son of the Father who was convicted of insurrection against Rome, and Jesus called Good as they reject the negative portions of the memory of their founder and call for the blood of their good lord to be upon them. How Christians can miss the 'bathed in the sanctifying blood' symbology in that scene and think its an indictment against the people of Jerusalem is beyond me.
>>1031151
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."
He does, in fact, want all of my money and my mind besides. And even if he didn't want anything, it's still his fault that I need saving in the first place.
>>1031142
We only die in the physical sense
Your soul lives forever and will either rest in heaven or be tortured for all eternity
The choice is ENTIRELY up to you
You have the choice not God
He made the rules and you have to follow them
That's simply the way it is
>>1031127
If he wanted me to give myself to him he should've given you better arguments through the holy spirit, he should've left physical evidence that Hebrew existed at the time of Moses for him to be able to write in it, as the current evidence appears to show otherwise, he should've not had Jesus give a false prophecy that the world would end within the generation of the time and he shouldn't have had the gospels completely misinterpret prophecies and turn verses which weren't prophecies, like various lines from Psalms, into supposed fulfilled prophecies in the gospels
>>1030576
>Having children would be risking them losing their salvation.
Anti-abortionists have seemingly already accepted this doctrine as the souls of the aborted are routinely depicted as being in heaven. Yet none of them have made the obvious logical leap to the idea that if that's true then abortion is preferable as it guarantees entry to heaven.
>>1031149
What's your point faggot?
He could have also made you a fucking dinosaur that explores the realms of space tapping ass and solving crimes
He could have made you anything but he made you a human
>>1030637
I think this is a stupid argument.
Natural selection is still in effect while agriculture is done.
It doesn't just suddenly stop.
On top of this there are other animals with agriculture or something similiar.
Or do you want to argue that something like the leafcutter ant also experienced the fall?
>>1031153
and I have over 300 confirmed kills
>>1031184
>and I have over 300 confirmed kills
LISTEN TO ME YOU LITTLE BITCH
>>1031162
you are stupid
You clearly haven't ever read a book in the bible or else you would know there are many instances of rich pious men
Jesus said its incredibly hard for a rich man to enter Heaven but it's incredibly rare
>>1030539
>How do we reconcile Christianity with the theory of evolution by the process of natural selection?
Tossing out the Old Testament.
>>1031166
You assume God should come crawling to you begging you to believe in him
>>1031165
> tortured for all eternity
I see... There are thousands of people who literally tortured for all eternity and God not only choose to just ignore problem but literally created the torture. This Good is like most sadistic being in existence.
>>1031227
How he can come crawling if he doesn't exist?
Evolution don't change anything in reality. Only morons (anglo-saxons, protestants, etc...) think it does.
>>1030637
I think its more appropriate to read it as 'The Man' rather than as a proper name. The gods only intended for there to be one which they would either keep alive on the fruit of life (note that its only the fruit of knowledge that is forbidden initially), or with the idea that they could simply make more when their gardener broke down.
After the creation of a second female human, and their gaining knowledge they're cast out and the reason seems to be that the knowledge specifically is of procreation something that until that point had been exclusive to the gods because the gods were afraid that if the humans gained access to the fruit of life that the gods needed to eat to maintain their immortality there would simply be a new generation of gods as had happened before.
Some of these details are more clearly found in other versions of the story from neighboring cultures as the version in the bible is basically a disneyified version.
What's this
>>1031232
>chose to ignore
>sent his only son to die for you and take your place before him in judgement
>his fault you didn't do the only thing necessary to be saved
>the only thing you needed to do is accept Jesus into your heart
>>1031243
Fancy Dildo?
>>1031243
Basileia Helena's dildo.
Where did you find it?
>>1031227
I wouldn't really call leaving evidence and a flawless holy scripture to being "crawling to me begging me to believe in him". all I'm asking is for there to be a logical case for his existence over other gods or the possibility of no gods. faith is not a virtue. you can be a muslim, a hindu or a jew and have faith. they never question their beliefs because they are staying faithful to their god or gods. and what does it get them? according to you hellfire. so faith is pointless. therefore we should base what religion we follow or if we follow any religion at all based on logic and empirical evidence. neither of these are on Christianity's side.
>>1031243
This is dildo.
>>1030929
Well there is the bit that the flood is in there after which all humans would be descended from those on the Ark. Except then you wind up with the problem of needing to populate the world in an even shorter amount of time.
>>1031269
>i don't know what is natural symbolism
Christianism is not a doctrine, a constituition of a country or a model of society: it's the faith in the real person of Jesus Christ.
Only matter evolves, the spirit is eternal, this is exactly the message Jesus brought.
>>1031262
He could just destroyed hell as a whole. No need to shift responsibility to humans and killing Jesus for such round about scheme.
>>1031274
Look man I'm getting really tired of having to tell you you don't understand he bible
Like at all
You know your ass would be a fedora regardless of evidence
Read the bible and then try to argue against it or just shut your mouth all together because you don't even know literally all the arguments you have made have been addressed and answered hundreds or thousands of years ago
>>1031298
Nigga I don't know if you've read the Bible, but that's just kind of how God operates. He doesn't just blaze a trail straight through a problem, he prefers to finesse it.
Why? I don't know. No one knows. He's God, he's beyond our comprehension. Maybe there's stuff going on at the cosmic level we can't comprehend. The Book of Job gets into this a little, which is why it's such an important book.
>>1031303
> addressed and answered
With circular logic at best and with any at worst.
>>1031313
>doesn't want to accept logic
There's nothing that can be done for you
>>1031303
>Read the bible
Have you done that? Have you read any other ancient myth cycles? Even without the physical evidence from other branches of science there's enough from archaeology, specifically the rediscovery of texts the church attempted to destroy to indict the bible as not being what it purports to be.
>>1030539
Well, evolution just makes amazing sense, so maybe God just sparked the first life into being, and when he saw the first intelligent life arising, he did his stuff.
I don't know, I'm not Christian.
>>1031297
What denomination are you?
>>1031303
yet you yourself don't try to address any of them and just try to make a person attack.
>You know your ass would be a fedora regardless of evidence
actually no. I'm a former christian. You know what made me stop being a christian? examining the evidence and reading the bible. comeback when you actually have an argument other than "fedora". fedora is a perfectly fine response if I was going on about how theists are fucking retarded and that I'm intellectually superior. I gave actual arguments against christianity and avoided making insults
>>1031328
>texts the church attempted to destroy to indict the bible as not being what it purports to be.
Can you list any? Genuinely curious
>>1031311
That's definitely the god you get from the P source material, but not the stuff from the J source. That god likes to take direct action and fuck shit up.
>>1031311
It is fine if God is beyond our comprehension. Just in that case you literally shouldn't believe him ever because he can be evil entity for reasons that you can't even hold to grasp and lied about heaver and hell, even about Jesus being his son and anything else. We doesn't know anything about him. There is no need to believe him. This is common sense.
>>1031330
The only one and the only universal Religion: catholicism.
>>1031340
This
The origenal God of the bible wasn't all powerful, he wasn't all knowing, he wasn't perfectly good, he didn't even create everything in the universe, hell he wasn't even the only God there was! Also Satan was his friend.
The modern concept of God is derived from Platonic philosophy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
Here watch this. This is what generally considered the historical truth of the old testament. If you go to a religious studies class at college this is what they will be teaching.
>>1030685
Evolution has one meaning.
Let's assume for the sake of explanation that the two concepts that you want to think are seperate and which are relevant to evolution are true, namely microevolution and macroevolution.
Microevolution as stated is completely observable.
It's a fairly simple set of experiments to observe mutation (Arising new traits along a spectrum of positive to negative), selection (Based on how good the traits are or how lucky the organisms are) and gene drift (Based on which individuals in parent generation reproduced the child generation will be different) within a species.
Macroevolution is "unobservable" according to you.
However if one seperates (In some fashion, not necessarily mere distance) two populations of a single organism over a longer period of time then both organisms will undergo mutation, selection and gene drift independantly.
Given enough time the traits between the species will be different and there will exist a distinct possibility that the organisms will be sexually incompatible and will no longer be able to successfully reproduce. They will be different species by our definition and as such speciation will have occurred.
The event of speciation can occur many times and speciation has been observed.
As such "macroevolution" is possible and is no different from microevolution.
A dog population will stay a dog population until it's a different in species from dogs due to prolonged genetic drift and genetic isolation.
The idea of an animal turning into another animal is typically unscientific because most evolution detractors posit that one highly differentiated modern species should turn into another highly differentiated modern species, typically within one generation for optimal stupidity.
Other criticisms generally rely on a poor understanding of how evolution works as well and I will only be addressing them if they are brought up and I am still posting in this thread at that time.
>>1031319
> accepting I am right because I am right
>>1031342
If he exists, why not believe him? Here you have the Alpha and the Omega, and you're not going to believe in him because he transcends your delicate human sensibilities. This sounds like pettiness.
>>1031346
I hope you are under absolutely no impression that the Church teaches that Genesis is just "natural symbolism".
>>1031347
Yes. That perfectly logical state of things.
>>1031332
>make personal attacks
God you fedoras are so fragile
Why do you even come to 4chan if you can handle someone calling you a name faggot
Get over yourself pussy
This isn't Leddit
We don't have civil discussions
If you aren't passionate about what you believe then you shouldn't argue at all about it
I used to be a fedora like you before I found my faith so there still might be hope for you yet faggot
I'm not saying I'm the most devout or holy
Because I'm not I'm far from and I have my moments of doubt but I can understand the logic even if I don't agree with it sometimes
If you can't then your a dumbass autist
>>1031367
>Platonism
>Perfectly logical
>>1031335
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library
This list is better than anything I could type up and that's just the stuff that they've found there are more books that we know existed because they were mentioned or excerpted that were destroyed.
There were lots of books floating around that were considered as holy scriptures by various early Christian groups most of which didn't survive because they didn't wind up being included on the official list of allowed books as the centralized power structure emerged within the church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu
There's also books like this which may not be ancient themselves but appear to preserve information from books that may not have survived.
>>1031365
I hope you understand that natural symbolism is not a "metaphor" but the language of God.
And I don't worship the Bible, the old guys didn't know a lot of things and that's not a problem for me.
>>1031368
It's not that I can't handle being insulted, it's that you didn't even fucking attempt to make a counter argument. all you did was say yer stupid and yer a fedora and act like you had won. fuck you, you disgusting piece of shit. you happy? this the type of discussion you want? I didn't come here to trade empty insults, I came here to have a substantive discussion of the topic. I don't have problem if you insult me, but at least fucking address my argument and completely destroy it first. If you want to call me retarded show the world I'm retarded first
>>1031361
> If he exists, why not believe him?
I exists too, why would you believe me?
> You're not going to believe in him
Why would I believe his words? Think about it for a moment. God is a being that can demonstrate any truth with enough evidences. What use for him are words? None. Except to create some kind of lie to believe for us. He can tell something but can't just show it being real. Why? Because it isn't real. It is a lie simply speaking.
>>1031386
Haha there you go anon let it out
Well it's been fun but this thread is pretty much dead
Just read the bible okay fedora?
>>1031381
You can believe what you like about Genesis, but don't pretend that your views automatically align with nearly 2000 years of Church dogma which isn't even that different to what protestant "morons" believe.
>>1031388
Maybe if you want God to show such a proof to you, you should pray for it. Maybe you should ask him to show you what you want.
But be careful what you wish for.
>>1031374
Interesting, I was aware of the Nag Hammadi but didn't realise it was that big a deal.
>>1030608
All of the issues on the tree seem /pol/ as fuck, except for racism. And it turns out that Racism is the most accurate of all the branches on the tree, what with scientific racism and all that.
>>1031347
To go a bit further than that the stories in the bible weren't even originally monotheistic. The god in the bible is such a mess of contradictions in part because its a combination of what were before the monotheistic edits several distinct characters. The sources are usually separated from one another by their tone and by the words used to refer to god.
This is quick from memory.
J Source - Talks about a god called Yahweh who has human qualities and failings
E Source - Talks about the gods including one called El who still has human qualities but is depicted as older and wise
D Source - Typically uses phrasing other than proper names and is generally concerned with legalistic rules
P Source - Talks about a god or the gods who aren't given human qualities
We know from texts from Elba that El Elyon was the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon and that Yahweh was one of his children so what seems to have happened as the group of Caananites became the Isralites is that the characters of El the elder father of the gods and Yahweh the younger and more virile god were merged. This may not have been much of an innovation as it was likely simply part of the liturgical procession of the life of a king when they were young they were the image of Yahweh, when they were old they became the image of El. We see similar things happening with the greeks where Dionysis seems to be a young version of Zeus.
>>1031408
Maybe it is like you say. Maybe God just send all who even once pray to him into hells. Who knows.
>>1031432
Wait...
How evolution created fucking PAGANISM?
>>1031403
I'm not denying any dogma, and you are a moron.
>>1030539
Throw out all the superstitious Jew bullshit, like "god", and being the "son of god", "miracles", and such, and keep the aspects that actually benefit society, like not being a vengeful fuck, etc...
>>1031449
I don't think that's how it works, but maybe.
I do think that no one calls on God in vain. God is real, and sooner or later he answers all prayers. He hears all lamentations and he brings about vengeance. Of course you see a lot of this in the Old Testament, but it's never really gone away.
This is the same sort of warning I give to the kiddies on /x/ when I'm there. I always tell them to be careful. Don't dabble in these things idly. History is filled with examples of people who didn't take God seriously until it was too late.
>>1031435
dude it's all a METAPHOR lmao
>>1031455
Most human cultures develop shamanism, a religious world filled with small gods who exercise power within their limited specific realms which could be specific places, specific objects, or animals.
When humans started to develop into more complicated societies their god concepts evolved to mirror those societies. So societies with large families of nobility who exercised power within tribes would have large pantheons of gods. Later as power became even more centralized under kings ruling larger groups of people monolatry developed where there were many gods but they would all be praised in turn as the most important god in order to keep control over the ruled.
Later still as kings consolidated power and writing helped give larger groups of people a single identity we started to see the emergence of monotheistic religions like the Aten cult and Zoroastrianism.
You can't quite do cladistic analysis of religions since they don't follow the same rules that organisms do since they can cross-pollinate but they do clearly drift over time and there is selective pressure.
>>1031493
Yes, but that metaphor is an interesting one if you take the time to look into the culture that generated it.
>>1031540
I was taking the piss, I know what you mean. I'm not sure what the implications of the OT's origins are for Christianity and perhaps Islam by extension.
>>1030539
Easy. After humans—as in every single creature of the Homo genus able to make rational and moral thinking—came about, sin was introduced. The only reason humans know sin is because we know what's right and wrong—relatively. With knowledge of this moral, we're not excused to do immoral things as it is now counted as sin, considering we're not simply driven by natural urges. Plus, the covenant is a thing. Over the years, humans have grown more and more sinful, as their relationship with God starts to dissipate. The covenant was broken abhorrently, and thus, humans aren't allowed into heaven. Jesus' death was necessary to restart this relationship, as well as to establish a new covenant, and to set things straight. Though, I'm not sure if this answer is legitimate considering how fast I came up with it.
