Can we have a thread about Eastern Europe? Why is it in the state it's in? What type of culture does it have now vs what it had a few hundred years ago?
I'm half slav but know very little about my ancestry and want to know what /his/ thinks
literally communism
and no we can't guess what would happened if there wasn't communism except that everything would be better
Unfortunately, they endured decades of terrible communist regimes.
that map is not up to date.
t.vatnik
>>1025777
>Why is it in the state it's in?
Russians and/or communism and ottomans.
t. Eastern Euro
Eastern Europe is not a culturally homogenous place to start with.
>>1025777
Because few people had all the richness and all the rest had nothing. This had NEVER worked.
Slavs. Like niggers they're incapable of civilization
Communist brainwashing at its finest. Now the results are occuring in form of extremly dumb and close-minded people who only care about drinking their rakia at the end of the evening. Of course there are exceptions, but the majority looks like they just like to live their villagerlike lives. And also because of the closeminded opinions they are really easy to manipulate. As a bulgarian i can assure you. Seems like people around me don't have a sense about what the fuck is going on the world and they just blindly follow the damn media and that's it.
Books, museums, opera... just bad words, man.
>>1026548
German empire funded Lenin to overthrow the tsar and launch a revolution in Russia. Russia then forcefed everyone communism after their military victories in WW2. I'm fairly certain than outside of the USSR, more Eastern Europeans liked Hitler than Stalin before and during the war (of course there were also countries like Poland who hated both).
>Yugoslavia
Tito pretty much killed off everyone who opposed communism, most notably the Ustashe and the Chetniks.
They are subhuman. If their countries were inhabited by germanics they would be much better.
>>1026020
yet they were the first to send a man in space while scandinavians were nothing more than albino niggers who couldn't put two sticks together
>>1026627
Mexican please
You can't thrown them into one bunch, only the 40 years of communism linked them together, at very least break them into groups, rhe states that had Catholic Kingdoms (Hungary, Czechia, Poland, Croatia), the Balkan countries (Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, small states)), main USSR succesor states of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, and the Baltic countries.
You could say each of the group roughly followed the same path but of all the four really only come together after 1945.
>>1026700
Hungarians are not Slavs you dipshit and neither are Romanians.
>>1026705
What are they then?
>inb4 gypsies
Do gypsies really make up the majority of hungary and romania?
>>1026712
Hungarians are Finno-Ugric people you idiot.
>>1026705
OP said Eastern Europe, both Hungary and Romania are Eastern European. Also Hungarians are a genetic transition between Slovaks and Croatians, only their language is Uralic.
>>1026068
>stupid people are easy to manipulate
I dont see difference between Eastern and Wester Europe or even America
>tfw no Mitteleuropa
I blame the jews.
>>1026725
>only
genetics is irrevelant to ethnic identity
>>1027322
>(You)
>>1028106
>being an illiterate turd
>>1026068
But that's totally wrong you faggot, if nothing commie regimes cared far more about "enlightening" the people in general than any regime previously or current regimes.
Now culture is infected by imported Western trash like reality shows, whores whoring themselves out, consumerism and illiteracy.
Communism had many shit sides but claiming they ruined everything is gross exaggeration.
For Balkans it was Ottoman rule, the rest were always behind West and Balkans.
Russians had Mongol issue, Ukraine had Tatar issue, Poland was a chaotic semi-anarchy, Hungary was okay but never near West, Estonians and Latvians were literally serfs owned by Baltic German minority, and so on.
I shit on "everything was great before communism" meme.
If you really read about life in Bulgaria and Serbia before WW1 you'd see how it really was.
And lastly, I don't support fucking communism, I'm just saying that communists didn't ruin us.
what is the difference between a slav and a balt?
>>1029341
Slavs speak Slavic language and Baltic people belong to Baltic group (Lithuanian, Latvian, Old Prussian).
>>1029313
You literally use pape-thin 2D cliches on the countries you mention, a lot of which were manufactured by centuries old propaganda, and then you get angry about your pet ideology. You must be horrible to be around.
Oh and communism sucks, starves tenths of millions and belongs in the trash. Deal with it.
>>1029313
>But that's totally wrong you faggot, if nothing commie regimes cared far more about "enlightening" the people in general than any regime previously or current regimes.
opinion disregarded
>>1029376
>state I don't like communism and accept it had many flaws
>UGH YOU DARE SAY COMMUNISTS WEREN'T SATAN URE A COMMUNIST!!!!11
Quality argument.
>centuries of propaganda
All I said was true even if very general because I can't describe detailed history of such a big group in two sentences.
But "communism is the reason we're poor(er)" is absolute bullshit.
>>1029313
>I shit on "everything was great before communism" meme.
It wasn't, but stuff was starting to catch up before that.
>>1029404
And it was "catching up" during communism too. It just never caught up.
I just hate this pretending that before communism EE was some highly advanced society. And then some Pole posts a poster showing how their reforms would go.
Meanwhile in 1938 Soviets had higher GDP per capita.
Again, nationlist romanticism is not reality. Communism was shit for many reasons but it didn't really destroy anything, on the contrary.
We maybe missed chances but then again seeing where West is heading now makes you wonder.
>>1026712
hungarians are finno-ugric and catholic/protestant
romanian are latin and orthodox
gypsies are about 10% of the population in both countries but a lot of them declare themselves as hungarians or romanians respectively
>>1025777
You don't really get much real history based on facts OP. A lot of the "history" is just he said she said bullshit.
>>1029386
>But "communism is the reason we're poor(er)" is absolute bullshit.
GPD 1938-1990.png
>>1029313
>Hungary was okay but never near West
In the last peaceful year of the Austro-Hungarian era, Hungarian gdp per capita has estimated to rose to 70% of Austrias average and had consistently higher rates of growth since the 1890s.
This was larger than Spain, Portugal or Greece, ans on par with Finland and Italy.
>>1029457
Yes comparison of GDP per capita when former communist economies collapsed due to neoliberal reforms (1990).
Also, no comparison with Belgium, Germany, France.
>>1029457
like this?
>>1029425
>10%
More like 5%, but it's hard to tell because those that decide to settle down and end up marrying Romanians or Hungarians(or Slovaks for that matter) deny being gyppos. I believe Slovakia has the largest gipsy % in Europe, but that may be due to the fact that Hung gypsies and Rom gypsies would rather declare themselves to be part of the ethnic majority
>>1029486
>le cherrypick
post Poland, Czechia, the baltics/whatever
>>1029486
>GDP matters
Russia has a very high GDP. Care to guess what the serf classes live like?
>>1029489
considering that most of them only started settling down a few decades ago one can hope they will be on the move once again in the near future
>>1029422
>it didn't really destroy everything, on the contrary
I assume you're not thinking about free thought, the intelligentsia of EE, freedom of speech, the middle class, human decency, etc
>>1029498
The only time the intelligentsia of EE have been worth a damn has been when they've been repressed.
>>1029497
>move once again
I'd rather have them settle down , build homes, work, shit like that. In the end a gyppo is a derogatory term that the most decent of them try to escape from.
>>1029463
You're ignoring that Austria wasn't really wealthy in comparison to Germany, England, Belgium, France.
Spain and Portugal were pretty poor, so was Italy.
Even today, this is all fictional wealth. See what will happen when EU is gone.
>>1029501
I too like baiting and shitposting and /pol/posting
>>1029503
>I'd rather have them settle down somewhere else. but i do know some really decent ones
>>1029506
I'm not joking, I'm deadly fucking serious. Think of the interwar Czech intellectuals: fucking useless. Compare them to the interwar Hungarian intellectuals under the Admiral's fascism.
>>1029513
You get one more (You) from me
>>1029508
Strawman harder lad
>>1029513
>intellectuals
>useful under any circumstances
>>1029508
the greentext is accidental
>>1029493
Are you seriously implying wealth inequality was lesser in 30's Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, or before that?
If GDP per capita doesn't matter, than what matters?
On what are you basing your claims?
As I said, it's just simple nationalist romanticism.
I disagree with communism of course and it was an episode that should never repeat itself, but ''commies destroyed everything'' is simply false.
>>1029528
I'm not implying that, I just meant that gommies broke the spirit of many EE nations. The point was that wealth distribution is so fucked in some countries like Russia or Ukraine, a rise in GDP is barely felt by the general populace
>>1029531
>broke the spirit
That's a different subject, and on that I can agree, but communism also prevented us from going the same way as West is going now.
In every evil there is some good.
>>1029536
>the same way as West is going now
2 things lad
>now that it's clear that we're both from behind the Iron Curtain, where are you from that you hold these views?
>which way is the west going?
>>1029498
Dunno how it's in post-AH countries, but Russia there were no such thing as middle class before communism. 90% of population were illitarate peasants
>>1029548
>post-AH countries
There was a middle-class and it was blooming, especially in the late 30's. Fascism and communism put a solid end to that
>>1029313
I agree about most of countries you mentioned.
The only true victims of communisn are Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia and probably Poland. Others only took advantage from it. Espesially central asian shitholles and caucasians republics.
>>1029566
Oh, so Slovakia, Romania, Croatia, Bulgaria, the Baltics, Ukraine, Albania or Serbia didn't suffer at all during communism, no, not at all, no sir. They were fine.
>>1029569
>Baltics, Ukraine
No. They only got. It's commies returned Vilno back to Lithuania and Lvov to Ukraine. It's commies builded their cities, factories and nuclear power plants. It's commies saved their languages from complete extinction.
>>1029586
sure, especially in baltics by invading and annexing them
> Crimea
> Ukrainian
Triggered
>>1029586
> It's commies builded their cities, factories and nuclear power plants.
Yeah! Like colonialists build all infrastructure in Africa. Sure they are good guys.
>>1029586
>It's commies returned Vilno back to Lithuania
After annexing Lithuania as a whole
>It's commies saved their languages from complete extinction.
By constantly trying to remove it from public use and replace it with Russian? Just because they failed doesn't mean they didn't try.
>>1029645
> Just because they failed doesn't mean they didn't try.
They actually didn't try. National autonomies was strong in soviet union.
>>1029586
>It's commies builded their cities, factories and nuclear power plants
You mean cities that they destroyed during ww2 and then filled with those shitty commieblocks?
Or nuclear power plants that that were unsafe by their own shit standards?
Or factories that were so terrible they had no way of competing with anything outside USSR?
>>1029659
> nuclear power plants that that were unsafe
They are perfectly safe. Literally can't name even one problem where plants was fucked up without some huge fuck up from people.
>>1029656
In any public event that had music, at least more than half had to be Russian. All documents had to be in Russian - Lithuanian was optional. There was no TV in Lithuanian, only Russian. That's just to name a few.
>>1029586
>what is Holodomor Alex?
>what are the mass deportations of Lithuanians?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania
>>1029675
> what is Holodomo
Not intentional in every sense of the word
>>1029586
t. Marx Leninistovici Kommunistov
>>1029679
>starving out 4 million ukies is not intentional
Fuck off comisar
>>1029596
>sure, especially in baltics by invading and annexing them
First you should remember it's commies gave them independence. So the alternative to commies was a Tsarist regime, which were much more oppressive.
>>1029633
Colonialists in Africa used Africans as slaves. Commies incorporated local elites to their system and forced them to conduct progressive reforms. Like in Khazakhstan. Commies literally forced nomad people to settle in cities and start normal life. Now Khazakh GDP per capita is higher than Ukrainian.
>>1029645
What was the alternative? To be annexed by Nazi Germany, I guess.
>By constantly trying to remove it from public use and replace it with Russian?
This is not true. Of course, the language of culture was Russian. It was (and still is in Central Asia) the language of international communication. Like English in Europe and whole world. Can we say that Americans trying to remove all languages by English?
>>1029683
were the many more millions of starved Russians genocided intentionally too?
>>1029685
Stop shilling the USSR fuckface.
>>1029688
>full damage control mode
>>1029691
lmao, a famine is not a genocide senpai, period
t. far from a gommie
>>1029701
>far from a gommie
Sure you are Appaatchikov
>a famine is not a genocide
This one was
>>1029685
>What was the alternative? To be annexed by Nazi Germany, I guess
At least they only sent mostly jews to camps, not everyone. Also they weren't as poor.
>Can we say that Americans trying to remove all languages by English?
So americans are dictating what language can and cannot be used in documents, literature and such?
>>1029705
>this one was
how was it different from the (far worse) famines in russia?
>>1029705
> This one was
Because commies can apparently control weather at the scale of entire country.
>>1029712
> not everyone
How many Lithuanians was at camps?
>>1029659
>You mean cities that they destroyed during ww2
Oh, stupid commies. Sorry, I always forgot it's commies are responsible for ww2.
>Or nuclear power plants that that were unsafe by their own shit standards?
As this guy >>1029666 said, they are safe. Chernobyl happened because one retard was incompetent.
>Or factories that were so terrible they had no way of competing with anything outside USSR?
Why do you thing they would build better factories if not communism? What countries not affected by communism we have to compare with Ukraine? Probably Greece? If so, I don't see any good industries in Greece.
>>1029714
>how was it different
the fact that there was actually enough food, but it was all sold because they didn't like farm workers going on strikes
>Why is it in the state it's in?
1) It's not in such a bad state. Drunk guys in tracksuits running around and beating everyone to death with pipes is a 4chan meme.
2) The area has been exposed to various barbarian invasions for centuries like Avars, Mongols, Magyars, Turks, etc. from the East and German imperialism from the West.
3) The North wasn't historically as connected to the rest of the world as Western and Southern Europe and the Balkans is a pile of mountains which is why so many tiny states formed there in the first place.
4) Early medieval Eastern Europe was more advanced than Western Europe, but lost the advantage during Christian-Islamic wars. The Fourth Crusade specifically was a bit turning point. Crusades and sacking Constantinople brought massive amounts of money into the West and enabled the later development of capitalism, also Turkish invasions caused many Eastern intellectuals to travel West.
5) It's not a coincidence that colonial states have an Atlantic coastline.
6) Communism
>>1029721
>I always forgot it's commies are responsible for ww2.
>splitting up Europe with Hitler and giving him more power has nothing to do with WW2
>>1029721
Question, are you Russian or just a pre-drop-out westerner who's never been near eastern Europe?
>>1029721
>shit-tier engrish
>commie
Where are you from sweetcheeks that you think communism is so good and all EE fags on this board have no idea what they're talking about.
>>1029722
> ongoing famine
> actually enough food
Really? This is what we supposed to believe?
>>1029727
> giving him more power
Well...
You should blame England and French for this.
>>1029734
>agricultural heart of the Russian Empire
>gommies arrive
>worst famine in the history of the place
Sure, it wasn't the commies' fault you see. Stalind a gud boi, he dindu nuffin
>>1029659
>You mean cities that they destroyed during ww2
That's Nazis. You know, the guys who killed 30 million Slavs.
>Or nuclear power plants that that were unsafe by their own shit standards?
That's one single power plant. The many other Soviet plants work just fine. Chernobyl helped everyone improve their own nuclear power security, including the West. Welcome to technology.
>Or factories that were so terrible they had no way of competing with anything outside USSR?
You mean the ones that put the first man into space? Or the ones that won WWII?
>>1029747
Man, you commies are on full throttle ITT. But sure, come to EE, declare yourself to be a gommie, see how people react
>>1029750
I'm an Eastern European right-winger, and there's plenty of nostalgic commies here.
>>1029736
>Other countries had some smaller part it it so it means Soviets did nothing wrong, including fucking HELPING Germany with Poland.
>>1029747
>You mean the ones that put the first man into space?
That was the early 60's. In 10 years' time the US has put 12 men on the Moon.
>Or the ones that won WWII?
And stagnated in tech for 50 years.
Go to sleep Comisar
>>1029756
Old fags who were in the state apparatus. You'd be hard pressed to find someone under 50 who's like that.
>>1029727
>splitting up Europe with Hitler
Non-aggression pact do not imply alliance or something. Also, same Hitler had same non-aggression pacts with literally every European country.
>giving him more power
What do you imply by this? Trading? Hitler traded with all European countries, including France and England, and they were larger trade partners than USSR.
>>1029763
Come on lad, give us your country of origin. I know you were never even 1 timezone away from Eastern Europe.
>>1029376
How could milions starve if everyone had a job?
>>1029769
They should have eaten cake
>>1029633
I'm living in a commie built flat (whole area was nothing but a swamp before them), studied at commie built school, go to commie built hospital when I have health issues... The list could go on since 90% of buildings in my city were built by them but nah FUCK COMMIES, they did nothing good
>>1029765
b-but I live in Eastern Europe
>>1029807
Sure you do
>>1029807
>if not for commies nobody would ever built houses, schools and hospitals
i fucking love this defence
>>1029807
>oh look they built infrastructure
>no capitalists ever built infrastructure
>so I'm just gonna let them have all my civil liberties
>>1029807
t. my city had been completely destroyed during the war and it just so happened it was under communist control afterwards.
>>1029817
T-thanks for renovating our commie buildings. I'm on my knees praying to this idol five times a day to show how grateful I am
>>1029942
No, war didn't touch it, apart few thousands jews getting killed by nazis.
>>1029984
Even worse. We experienced the same here in Slovenia, with the communists razing old private buildings (that they either just stole or killed the owners as well) because they were "burgeois" and replacing them with ugly brutalism that was either nationalised or given to high ranking party members.
>>1025777
>Why is it in the state it's in?
Planned economy.
After the 90's, our economic systems were simply in a state of shock, because we had to transition to a free market economy. Based on those attempts to catch up on the rest of the world, you see the current state of eastern Europe today
>>1029386
No it is not bullshit
I'm late, but:
>Why is it in the state it's in?
Commies.
>What type of culture does it have now vs what it had a few hundred years ago?
The Central European countries had a culture not much different from German/Austrian culture. The actually Eastern European countries were repressed Russian serfs. The Balkan countries were sulky Ottoman serfs.
>>1026605
>Tito pretty much killed off everyone who opposed communism, most notably the Ustashe and the Chetniks.
The Utsashe killed civilians en masse,even the fucking Germans were scarred by the atrocities they committed.
And the Chetniks were monarchist who backstabbed the communists once they found out that the areas they were liberating were going to operate differently than how the Kingdom of Yugoslavia used to operate.
>>1030533
The communists started the revolution before they even started fighting the Axis, kiling several Slovene officials in the early days of the occupation. After Barbarossa, they started conducting raids against the local civilians. From 1941 to 1945, the partisans were the communist army (which became obvious with the takeover in 43 when the other factions officially lost all power) which -under political commissars' supervision acted as the Party's henchmen. Anyone who spoke out against the communists would "disappear", die in "accidents" or be "found" to be a traitor. Along with their own brothers in arms, the partisans under communist leadership murdered thousands of civilians, the majority right before and after the end of the war.
It was the communists who backstabbed anyone; their agenda was revolution from the start. They were just as bad as the soviets and the axis.
>>1030643
>From 1941 to 1945 the partisans were the communist army
They didn't openly show their communism until the end of the war.
>>1027007
No, these are extremely stupid.
Does anyone else think it's funny how on /int/ or /pol/ the Eastern Euro's are so happy about how few immigrants they get?
I mean, the underlying point is that your countries are so shitty Africans would rather stay in Africa then move there, but they think it's braggable.
EE is the bomb diggity, between Moscow and Belgrade we got the best s&m clubs
>>1026635
German Scientists.
>>1032987
Name them.
>>1032078
I've noticed it too and while I believe they genuinely don't want these migrants coming to their respective countries I also think that they are quite ashamed that hardly any of the migrants want to settle in Eastern Europe in general.
They are European but receive not even a tenth of the level of respect none Europeans have for Western Europe. It's like they are eternally second class Europeans and they might also feel they are not living up to the expectations people around the world have of Europe.
>>1033030
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rockets_ussr_germany.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/a4_team_moscow.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/26ymjv/did_any_german_scientists_go_to_the_soviet_union/
Read them.
>>1033049
Wow it's fucking nothing, like your links say themselves all the spearheads were still Russians. Russians also still got scraps compared to the US and they STILL beat them to it.
>>1033049
Not the guy, but are you seriously pushing the "it was all the Germans" angle for Soviet science projects? They were headed by Soviet scientists whose achievements are very impressive considering the Americans got by far the best of the bunch through Operation Paper Clip (Wernher von Braun).
>>1026712
>Confusing Romani for Romanians
I'm not sure if you're implying that
But this isn't the first time I've run into this today and that's pretty bad
>>1032078
Oh you poor ignorant soul.
As someone who lived in both Western and Eastern Europe I can tell you that they are FAR from being shitholes. If you think otherwise you are about as retarded as /pol/acks who think they're paradises. And for the record they are getting immigrants too, just not the ever-so-miserable muslim refugees who refuse to assimilate or at very least respect their cultures. I mean, look how many Ukrainians came to Eastern EU. They have no problems with it, in fact try asking them, most of them will tell you it's great place to live in.
You seem to be under this dumb assumption that Eastern Europe is a bad place to live in because Syrians(?) supposedly wouldn't settle there. Why the fuck would they want to do that though? West is foolish enough to give them far more gibsmedats and erect mosques left and right, no muslim in their right mind would pick the christian east instead.
Poland and Czech Republic are decent countries to live in, but so what? Germany will give you more welfare, Germany has better healthcare, Germany has better infrastructure, German language is easier to learn than the Slav ones, the EU has no fucking borders, there is literally no reason for muslim immigrants to settle in a MEDIOCRE country when they can go for a good one.
And to answer your question, no I don't think it's funny that they're happy about it. Compare crimerates of Eastern EU to those of your country. They're simply people who wouldn't let you walk over them and that's something respectable.
also
>the underlying point is that your countries are so shitty Africans would rather stay in Africa then move there
Okay, so you are retarded.
>>1033171
Top kek
That infamous Slavic inferiority complex / overcompensation is radiating from your post
>>1033191
and you're too much of a pussy to even respond to anything he's saying lol
>>1032078
>your countries are so shitty Africans would rather stay in Africa then move there
No, they just do not accept random niggers and don't have welfare system such as other European countries have.
Also, Czechia is almost Spain and Italy tier by GDP per capita
>>1025777
My father and his family are immigrants from Eastern Europe.
Why do they always handle food with bare hands? Utensils exist for a reason.
>>1026020
Don't pretend to be retarded, you're embarrassing yourself.
>>1029493
No it doesn't. Russia has lower GDP than Italy.
>>1033349
pffffffffffffttt
>>1031413
That's not true since the Communist party was one of the organisers. They were always a powerful part of the resistance movement (which Christian socialists and others were also part of) until 1943 when they took complete control of the organisation, purging anyone who didn't agree. The communists had many nationalist partisans killed and after the war, they arrested many surviving memebers of the organisation TIGR (Trst Istra Gorica Reka), people who fought hard to protect the Slovene people from the Italian fascists before the war.
All of the partisans may not have been communists (my grandfather sure wasn't), but they were the armed wing of an organisation that was in communist hands. Besides, they were "supported" by political commissars.
>>1032987
>>1033049
Space exploration would not be a thing had Herman Potočnik, a Slovene man, not published his book on the topic in 1929. That book is what influenced Werner von Braun, too.
pic related
>>1026712
Hungarians are generally finno-ugrics, but at this point they are mostly a mixture of Germanics and Slavs.
Romanians' ethnic history is kind of a mistery, it also got some Slavic influence.
Gipsies are around 10-15 percent in each countries, but they seem to be much more because they live concentrated in some places.
>>1033268
Because they are fucking peasants
t. Eastern European
>>1032078
you do know our xenophobia is not restricted to imageboards and we are legit racists in real life, people beat up lartinu exchange students thinking they are refugees and shit?
>>1032078
>Does anyone else think it's funny how on /int/ or /pol/ the Eastern Euro's are so happy about how few immigrants they get?
It's a hate-love thing.
It obviously means that we're a shithole, but... I am a Pole, and seeing that current waves are mostly composed of Arabs and our "indigenous" muslims - tartars - are like "don't take ANY of them" I think it's for the better. At least for now.
Obviously people thinking our countries are great because we aren't Al-Swedenig are retarded, they aren't Al-Swedenig because they are pretty shit.
>>1032078
Yeah, there's a huge inferiority complex, but people in Eastern Europe are also very xenophobic and racist.
So on one hand they're ashamed that people who they think are beneath them don't want to come to Eastern Europe, but they wouldn't be very welcoming even if they did
>>1034490
>So on one hand they're ashamed that people who they think are beneath them don't want to come to Eastern Europe
ayy
lmao
It's in the state it is in now because of communism.
Marxism = black plague
>>1034492
Yeah, I don't think anyone thinks that.
>>1026605
>Ustashe and the Chetniks
Most of them escaped to Argentina/Australia.
>>1025777
Tha Balkans suffered from Turkish mismanagement, shit taxation system, ineptitude of Turkish government to control their corrupt officials. Widespread racketeering on top of that.
East and yonder suffered under Russian rule.
A-H was kind of okay, in the sense that it wasn't as badly run and exploitative, but people resisted it because of cultural assimilation (Germanization, and Magyarization).
>>1025777
>suffer-suffer-suffer itt
Puh-leese, shut up. Nobody but locals are at fault for all local problems. Everyone enjoyed the ride, Ottoman Balkans included. Everyone thought Bosnian-Albanian elite in past and modern Turkey appeared out of nowhere?
Just local perversion of Christianity give locals hard dick from words like "suffer", as if it validates their existence in any way.
Economy is fucked because of commie mismanagement, but it gets better. Even though most of it is still in hands of turned commies.
Just Europe goes more warlike, collectivist and authoritarian the more east and north one goes due to killer climate and/or nomads of the Great Steppe coming to raid your momma. Russia is the easternmost therefore more warlike, collectivist and empire-boo than Poland or Serbia, while Czechs and Slovenes differ the least from South Germans or North Italians in attitude.
>>1026068
Sounds like 95% of the world population. Nothing special or distinctive about that.
>>1029313
Pole here.
in here communism was only cover up for colonial exploitation system of the USSR. We we shearing all our work and resources with the "big brother" just like the rest of the others satelite states, getting propaganda and repressions in return.
It had pretty much same effects as western colonialism on middle east and Africa - also had similar results after the whole system has fallen apart. All terms relating to post-colonialsim and post-colonial studies are very applicable to the situation of these past satellite states.
It's always arguable if cons are bigger that pros in case of colonial domination (they built us some infrastructure after war). I say cons since there is a reason why people were risking their lives escaping from USSR to the west not the other way round.
The biggest harm has been done to the idea of civil society, people think that the have no influence on anything, political apathy is dramatic and they don't even have the will to change that after so many years of foreign occupation they got used to. On the other hand there is this constant paranoia and witch hunt for remaining "communist agenda" still in 2016 which try to bring down our state.
>>1025791
... Would you have preferred the Tsar and a continuation of little serfdom and no industrialization? Or would you have preferred fast industrialization (that killed a proportional amount of people compared to industrialization in other countries) at the expense of continuing to have no political rights? The choice is yours. Russia and the other post-soviet states would be literal 3rd world shitholes if it wasn't for the rapid industrialization under Stalin. In reality, the world isn't as black and white as you think.
>>1035053
literal bullshit not everything east of berlin is russia
>>1029830
Nice! Way to miss his point entirely!
Not only were the capitalists not doing these things before Communist governments came around, even if that was accurate here, who cares? Right, so these Communist countries managed to accomplish the same things that capitalists could've. It looks to me like you're torn down your own argument. Communist countries weren't as bad as you characterize them as being.
>>1035082
>Communist countries weren't as bad as you characterize them as being.
>
>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
>
>>
>>>>>>>>
>>1035082
Do you think people were living in tribes east of austria before 1945?
Czech Republic was on of most industrialized places in the world, miles ahead greece.
Look at the situation in 19991.
>>1034495
damn anon
back at it again with the lack of knowledge
>>1035102
>communism wasnt detriment to economy of eastern europe
Eastern Europe was for long time less developed place than Western part, but communism played large role in great divergence between east and west
>>1035099
Oh my god the one example that's not really even in Eastern Europe, the one example that historically had been considered part of the German area.
If you look at the unindustrialized Eastern European countries (READ: NOT EAST GERMANY OR THE CZECH REPUBLIC) you'll notice that actually, the industrialization was quite successful and helpful. And if you look at China...
I don't think you mean to look at 1991 either, seeing that all of the post-iron curtain economies collapsed after their government was overthrown (as would be expected)
I dislike the Communist countries post Khrushchev-Era anyways, they went from being State Capitalists to being 100% Capitalist.
good work
>>1035119
Communism absolutely helped mitigate the divergence I'd absolutely argue. The potential infrastructure builders, the capitalists, simply lacked the capital to actually industrialize these countries because their governments were still very much feudal in terms of wealth distribution.
We'll never know. But my main point is that Communism with a capital C has very little to do with marxism, a primarily historiographical and sociological method for analyzing human history. You can absolutely subscribe to Marxism and not be a communist, though you'd be hard pressed to find someone that fits those criteria.
>>1034442
Random street violence against foreigners, moronic football hooliganism and skin head retardation in all it's forms do nothing of benefit for a society. It's shows a lack of civility and when the state doesn't even intervene keeping quite on such matters it shows that this lack of civility is institutionalized. Which isn't good for any society.
If it is against the law there can be no exception no matter what the motive the rule of law stands meaning no one is above the law even if all they are doing is beating up foreigners
>>1025777
They didn't (couldn't) parasyte the extra-european world and didn't play a significative role (Germany, Italy) in the commercial networks of the atlantic powers. Instead, they were the ones parasyted by Ottomans, Hassburgs and Ruskies.
Geographical determinism wins again.
>>1035153
If only it was true, East-Central European states are some of the safest in world.
Attacks on foreigners and racism are rarity except when considering monkeys on stadiums
>>1035153
>moronic football hooliganism
Only present in Croatia, Serbia and Poland. Even there it's considerably tamer than what the englel monkeys were doing in the 70s and 80s. EE streets are considerably safer than London or Paris, and most of the prison population are folks who ended up in the joint because of petty theft. Eradicate poverty and most EE countries lose 70% of crime.
>>1035053
>russia is all of EE
>le ebin medieval stagnant tsardom meme
gommies stopped the already happening industralization, killed millions, then killed more millions to resume it
>>1035232
>Russia is all of EE
I remember a fag saying something akin to "Poland was a part of the USSR, so were all Warsaw pact countries". The actual knowledge of history on this board is abysmal
>>1035321
(you)
>>1035321
/pol/ or /int/? Either way fuck off fag
>>1035321
Your gonna need our approval when your bloated social security finally implodes and your new generation of communists that your Unis are mass-producing right now will take over
>>1025791
> and no we can't guess what would happened if there wasn't communism except that everything would be better
Are you off your meds?
It would the same shithole as India now is.
>>1035421
t. Trotski Kommunistenov
>>1035421
yes look how bad is polish, czech, estonian etc. economy going
post communist western states have continuously highest gdp growth in europe for last 20 years
>>1035443
If I remember the numbers right, Romania is the Yuro country with the greatest growth in the last 10 years. All of EE is lifting itself up at unprecedented rates
>>1035610
as opposed to the actual real-life Africans taking over the West :^)
>>1025777
Eastern Europe: the only part of Europe that got colonized by other parts of Europe.
>>1036432
ireland, catalonia, basques, norway its just that western empires didnt pass through such long phases of insability
Romania is Latin. Hungary is Uralic, Lithuania and Latvia are Baltic.
The rest are Slavs.
What was going on in Eastern Europe before the slavs arrived?
fixed
>>1037510
Nothing. Think Scandinavia before Viking age. A big cold region of nothing, because historical sources about the region are extremely rare, so if anything happened we barely have and idea what.
The only source I can remember now is Herodotus. He probably mentions proto-Slavs, that is southern Balts as Budinii and Gelonii roughly on modern Belarus-Ukraine-Russia border near Chernigov, Bryansk and Kursk.
Supposedly Gelonii were Greek colonists from Black Sea coastal colonies that were somehow exiled to Budinii lands and intermixed with locals, "speaking half-Scythian and half-Greek language" and having mixed customs.
Both Budinii and Gelonii helped Scythians against Persians during Darius I fail at conquering nomads.
Other Balts and Volga Finns were known to walk in animal skins, eat people and generally be poorfags that kept it low and subtle. All other Baltic and Mordvinic peoples preferred to just wait it out and didn't participate in the carnage. If you don't count Scythians baiting Persian to "neutral" territories as participation.
Closer to the end of Antiquity Goths moved from Southern Sweden through Gotland and Vistula into the Middle and Low Dnieper. These Germanics shaked things a bit by ruling over local proto-Slavs, Thracians and Iranians as mounted elite. Most Germanic loanwords in Common Slavic come from their speech, and characteristically mostly deal with military themes.
Russian (now pejorative) ancient designation чyдь/chud' for Finnic peoples comes from Gothic Þiuda "people". As in "we, the people", unlike local Slavs or Thracians.
Common Slavic word for "Alien", tjudjь, supposedly comes from Þiuda, so all Slavic words for "aliens" comes from Gothic self-designation.
If Budinii and Gelonii were indeed proto-Slavs, than from VI century B.C. to III century A.D. so little happened that proto-Slavs had to borrow a word from recent alien invaders to designate alien invaders as a concept. 700 years of nothing is a long time.
cont.
>>1026020
>t. Juan-Otto Agbonlahor
>>1038664
>Herodotus
>proto-Slavs
Herodotus lived roughly a millennium before the expansion of the Slavic tribes.
just ww2 and commie my shit up
>>1038664
Goths ruled over Sarmatians, Thracians and Proto-Slavs for around a 100 years. Germanics were known to not intermingle with subjugated peoples, Goths more so.
Around year 375 some shit hit the fan and there was a huge revolt of proto-Slavs against Goths, that was successful in the beginning but failed in the end. Ostrogothic king Vitimir suppressed Slavs in the end, crucifying 70 tribal elders together with rebellion leader Bozh and all Bozh's sons.
Barely a year later Huns came to wreak Vitimir shit up, and they did. Slavs were most pleased and turned on Ostrogoths because fuck them, joining the Hun empire in the process. Then the whole Hun chase after free Goths provokes the Great Migrations period.
However, all of this was written by Jordanes, a 1/4 Goth and a huge Germanic-boo, so take it with a grain of salt.
Anyway, proto-Slavs were probably settled along Hun empire as loyal infantry troops, unlike subjugated Germanic peoples of dubious loyalty. When Huns disappeared, Slavs remained as a fairly prestigious people spread from future Austria and Balkans to the river Don. Slavs turned into more of a free farmer-warrior caste bound by same language than people proper, assimilating most East Germanics left after mass migrations of said Germanics into former Western Roman empire.
This also explains why Common Slavic was so uniform from Thessaloniki to future Berlin to future Novgorod - practically the same language from 400 to 800, and barely divergent dialects up to year 1000. Slav identity was very inclusive and prestigious, hence why perhaps all Slavs except Russians of South Belarus and North Ukraine were former Germanics, Iranians, Finns, Balts, Turkics and the like.
Avar Khaganate and Danube Bolghar Empire reinforced the Hunnic order - small equestrian Nomad herder elite over free Slavic infantry/farmers class over everyone else. Slavs assimilate them all later. At the time they were more a class than a people - think Vikings or Roman citizens.
>>1038691
This is why I mention them as "proto-Slavs, that is southern Balts", and not just Slavs. Please take time to read it with a bit more attention.
I repeat, Budinii and Gelonii PERHAPS were FUTURE proto-Slavs, that is extreme south Balto-Slavic peoples with some trace Iranian influence. Maybe some Greek in case of Gelonii, if Herodotus didn't just take things out of his ass.
All of you people seriously overestimate the influence of Communism. Most of the problems have roots in 17th or so centuries. Even in school, we learn about the split between western economies, orientated on renting the land to the peasants and eastern serfdom. Most of the land was held by incredibly rich small group of nobility, which halted development of cities in western Ukraine and Belarus, while Poland was ravaged by Swedes.
Main export for Poland was grain, but the profits were fading. Galicia, once a very populated and rich region was destroyed by partitions of Poland, which established borders on the traditional trade route down the Vistula. In central Poland, industry boomed, but it was mainly textile and sold in Russia. Even by 20th century most of population worked in agriculture.
Independent Poland was very underdeveloped and had nearly no export products. There were problems with infrastructure and the factuntil it was a country formed on the ruins of three empires. Then the economic crisis hit and unemployment reached 20%, all while in rural areas, the government had to introduce an outhouse-building program. From 1939 to 1945 18% of Poland's population died, including many intellectuals.
Communists modernized and rebuilt the country from ruins, but it was industry orientated. People who remembered pre-war Poland actually considered this an improvement, but younger generations compared it not to the 1930s, but to the contemporary west. This and in the 1970s Poland got Greece-tier indebted.
Finally, privatization in 1990s killed the industry, which was plagued with high work cost. This caused a spike in unemployment, but we're doing fine rn.
>>1025777
What part of the Slavic world do you have ancestry from? Balkans? Poland? Russia?
It actually matters because slavs are not so related as one likes to think.
>>1038734
>perhaps
>future proto-Slavs
>Herodotus
>>1038729
>>1037510
OK, about other Eastern Europe except the obvious Balkans already well known and documented history.
Czechia and Slovakia were old known Celtic clay. Perhaps also extreme south of Poland. On this clay during AD I'll write later.
Hungary, that is Pannonian Plain, was populated by Celtic-Illyrian peoples from 4th century BC - whoever these mixed tribes were, left after great Celtic migrations east all the way to Asia Minor and Galatia. Some time later, during the Roman Empire period, Iranians such as Iazygii and Roxolanii moved there from Pontic Steppe. Iranian seemed to hang out there until Hun empire and Slavs merging everyone into themselves.
Romania was Daco-Thracian clay. Dacians, Getae and Thracians were considered the same people, so everyone from modern North Greece to Bulgaria to Romania to Moldova shared common language and customs. Costoboci, Carpi and Bastarnae of North Romania, Moldova and South-Western Ukraine were probably populated by Getae mostly, with some Celtic and much pronounced Iranian influence.
Daco-Thracians were perhaps intermediary peoples between Balto-Slavs, Iranians and Balkan IE peoples like Macedonians or Illyrians. Perhaps, if they were a mostly unmoved part of IE dialect continuum. Maybe not.
Nomad Cimmerians of Pontic steppe from 8th century BC are thought to be ancestral link between Daco-Thracians and Iranians. Thought by some, at least.
Anyway, later Daco-Thracians dissappeared in all Great Migration mess, perhaps becoming (genetic) basis for Romanians. Perhaps some joined Goths, as Goths ruled over Pontic steppe and Thracian-Iranian Bastarnae.
cont.
>>1038808
Most of Poland is murky area just as Baltics.
Many Poles like to think that proto-Slavs came from there, but oldest Slavic hydronyms are from Polesie area, that is Pinsk marshes. Another stump is that proto-Slavic lacks common word for amber - the main export of this area. Most words like yantar/yentar were borrowed from Russian who in turned borrowed it from Baltic.
Poland was populated by Veneti people. They share the name with Veneti of modern Venice area, of Celtic Veneti in modern Brittany.
If the IE dialect continuum wasn't interrupted, locals gradually turned from West Balts into Germanics.
After Scandinavia pumped out several waves of hungry Germanic men into lands with better soils and climates, Poland, Czechia and Slovakia became lands of new East Germanic peoples like Vandals, Burgundians or Rugii. Rivers like Vistula and Oder became highways for invading/resettling Germanics to settle further and take control of the local land. Celts of Bohemia (like Boii in Bohemia-Czechia, but also in Northern Italy, Austria and France) and Slovakia also became Germanized. They later mostly fucked off to Western Roman empire, the rest became Western Slavs.
Baltics, well... until Northern Crusades, it was a big region of Nothing Happening. Some Scandinavian raids and Baltic counter-raids, with lazy Russian attempts at colonizing that never went further than Western Belarus and Eastern Latvia.
Before the river trade link from Baltic Sea to Constantinople was established around 8th century, the only contact of locals with "big world" was through amber trade way from modern Kaliningrad and Gdansk region through Poland and Hungary to the Adriatic. After that it saw some traffic from Scandinavia to Russia and Greece and back, but little else.
Baltic and Volga Finns are even deeper in the realm of Nothing Happening until Russia was established (for Volga Finns and future Estonians). They just were there on the Volga perhaps from Herodotus time.
>>1026605
>Ustashas
Croatian Fascists that slaughtered Serbs, Jews and Gypsies
>Chetniks
Serbian Monarchists who slaughtered Croats and Muslims
P.S Chetniks started working with the Ustashas and the Germans because the partisans where a larger threat for them
>>1025777
Gommienism.
