How could Adam and Eve be punished for disobeying God? They didn't even know right from wrong, theistfags explain.
It's just a metaphor, bro.
god punished them so its okay
G-g-god works in mysterious ways...
go read aquinas baka
Turn off your brain and it'll start making sense.
Being in the Garden of Eden sounds dull as fuck.
What is there to do all day? Just pick fruits and eat them? I'm sure taking a walk/going for a swim in the river would get boring after the first two times.
>>1002137
Talk to god and snakes
Name animals
Be content because you know and expect nothing more
>>1002149
>"talk to God"
About what? Adam and Eve supposedly already have 'everything' and there are no humans in existence, so what is there to talk about? No mysteries, no gossip, no rumors, nothing to make jokes/fun of, no anticipation for anything other than picking up fruits.
>>1002162
*picked up any fruits today my lord*
or
*how about some new fruits to pick up man, I think I've tried everything?*
>>1002128
Furthermore, Satan, the master deceiver, tempted these ignorant meat sacks. Also, God essentially gave them a death sentence for this.
Think if a parent executed their child for stealing from the cookie jar.
>>1002128
It's was attempt explain famous Problem of evil
>>1002181
I wonder how easy it would be to find a dindu nuffin edit with god as the dindu and the catholic intelligentsia as the liberal defenders
>>1002128
It's just a metaphor... that God had to literally "die" for. Makes perfect sense.
>>1002128
They didn't need to know right from wrong. All they needed to know was that God had given them everything they desired all of out his own kindness. They just had to be grateful and let his stuff be. You don't have to know good and evil to know this.
>>1002226
You do to have any moral responsibility for your actions.
>>1002180
It's more like the child tried to cut himself and God gave them a massive time out so long that his nth great grand children are still serving his sentence.
>>1002234
We're not talking about moral responsibility, we're talking about gratitude.
Why even put that specific tree in the garden in the first place? Why let Lucifer (or at least a servant of his) wander around the garden after he had fallen? Why give Adam and Eve any agency at all if it will just fuck up humans for all eternity?
>>1002237
Well he was given infinite time unsupervized to cut himself with knives scattered around the floor as well as someone urging him to cut himself as well as him not knowing that cutting himself is wrong or would hurt etc.
>>1002242
They could not understand the moral implications of not showing gratitude before they ate the fruit. Nor could they have understood the ramifications of disobeying their benefactor, because they would have had no knowledge or experience on which to make an inference.
It would be like expecting a baby or young child to show you gratitude and obey your commands. They are incapable of understanding any of the implications.
>>1002257
Because he wanted it to happen. It's all part of his plan.
>>1002128
Why do you think they were punished, instead of just reaping the natural consequences of their actions?
Why do you assume they were less intelligent than you are?
>>1002180
It's not execution, it's more being cast into the wilderness.
It's pretty fucked parenting. Imagine if your parents kicked you out of the house the first time you did something wrong.
>>1002257
Because the proper exercise of agency requires apparently viable alternatives.
>>1002276
Why do you assume they were less intelligent than you?
>>1002284
Parenting? Adam and Eve were fully adult human beings.
>>1002288
Why do you suppose you were equally as intelligent as then? Chances are, you're less than them.
>>1002283
Didn't God give Ewe the pain of Childburth because of it?
>>1002300
I know Adam was more intelligent that I am, because Adam came up with names for all of the animals.
Sit down and try it sometime. Come up with hundreds of original names for things.
>>1002303
That's why they call it the curse. It's not a punishment. Neither is Adam having to work and eat by the sweat of his brow, and the serpent crawling in the dust.
It's just the way things are, when things are broken.
>>1002304
A decent world building DM could do that
>>1002317
Never seen one. They tend to use books. Adam had no books.
>>1002318
Do they know obey v disobey?
Do they know believe v disbelieve?
Do they know God v serpent/enchanter?
They made their choice, and you're stuck with it. I suggest you subscribe to the only fix for what they did.
>>1002128
This is a hugely misunderstood story. It wasn't a commandment and they weren't "punished" per se. It was advice from God to Adam and Eve, that eating the fruit wouldn't be good for them because the knowledge of good and evil is a burden he didn't want them to have to deal with.
>>1002329
Isn't that a pretty weird thing to do for someone that do't know the difference between right and wrong?
>>1002334
Why do you keep assuming Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong?
>>1002329
You're halfway there. Adam and Eve, and us by implication, were not designed to live by our knowledge of good and evil. We were designed to house the Holy Spirit and live dependently under the grace of a loving God.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, and had nothing left but to try to live by their knowledge of good and evil. And no matter how good you think you are, or how much evil you think you avoid, you will never be as holy to God as you are when the Holy Spirit is living in you.
Adam and Eve are the idealized state of being. When we humans have knowledge of good and evil it is unnatural and perverse. The true state of man is one where ignorance is bliss and we don't have to deal with complex notions of good and evil. This knowledge is the driving force behind humanity. Everything we do boils down to it. The only reason we advanced in technology and creating societies is because we have a (now) natural inclination to think about right and wrong in all the things we do. We disobeyed God and now you might ask why be punished if we didn't know it was a evil thing to do but this is what the story tells us:
Satan (evil) influenced Eve (a woman) who in turn seduced her husband Adam (men). This is a story showing how evil can take hold of men through women. Remember that Adams defence was that God had given him Eve and it was technically God's fault for creating Eve for seducing him. So this is the equaliser, Adam can't bear to be alone and God can't bear to see Adam alone. But the only way to make a suitable helper for Adam is to take his own flesh (a part of Adam) and craft it into a woman, who desires wisdom and knowledge and the same status which God has. It's a story about why we have changed as humans, caring more about what women I.e. humans want than about what God wants. The essence of evil is feminine while the essence of righteousness is masculine. It is not to say that women are evil and men are good, rather it's a sort of yin yang concept. Two opposites which came from the same whole and are in opposition to each other. And how did God punish humans? Women would experience pain in birth yet still desire their husbands for doing that to them. While men would work extremely hard just to provide a little amount of food to survive on. It created a bond between Adam and Eve. Adam would work and give food to Eve while Eve would provide children and comfort to Adam, and so the human species was fully born and we are still the same today.
>>1002334
Yeah that's exactly the point. At that time in the story humans were still animals not knowing right and wrong. God, knowing that the knowledge of good and evil is a burden warned them against eating it. To put it most simply, a fox doesn't realize the harm it's inflicting when it kills and eats a rabbit. But once your eyes are opened, you understand that when you hurt something it feels the same pain you do when you are hurt. Life is much simpler when you don't understand that which is why it's seen as a burden.
They were tricked into it though and that's what most of the rest of the bible is about.
But it's not a punishment exactly. Like if you tell a child not to put his hand in hot water. You're telling him for his own benefit. If he does put his hand in and burn himself, it's a consequence of his actions. But he's not being punished by the how water. He's just experiencing why it's a bad idea to burn your hand.
>>1002359
Because the fruit was supposed to give them the knowledge of right and wrong?
>>1002381
It gave them the knowledge of good and evil. The same knowledge you have.
>>1002128
Mysterious ways lmao.
>>1002369
The fox only kills and eats the rabbit because Adam and Eve sinned against God; prior to that, both the fox and the rabbit were herbivores.
The world is not as it should be.
>>1002391
/reddit---->>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>1002386
Good and evil both are relative. also even dog know good and evil. Dog know a bone is good and a cat is evil. Do you think dog ate the fruit?
>>1002411
None of your phrases contain any truth.
>>1002392
I think that's a misinterpretation, personally. But at any rate, the fox and rabbit is just an example to illustrate the concept.
reminder that snek liberated adam and eve from their slavery to dogma and ignorance
reminder that all knowledge and wisdom we have today we own to the snek
reminder that snek was actually Kek
>>1002413
Not him but good and evil are matters of perspective. From the perspective of a rabbit, getting eaten is bad, from the perspective of a fox getting to eat is good. It's the same act though.
To a human looking on it could be good if he sees the rabbit eating his carrots. Or it could be bad if he would rather eat rabbit than carrots and now the fox took his supper. Again, it's all perspective.
>>1002418
Genesis 1
Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.
Kind of hard to misinterpret that.
>>1002434
They are, actually, but not from your perspective. They are matters of good and evil from God's perspective, and God dictates to us what is good, and what is evil. Animals eating animals is neither good nor evil, but a statement that nature is broken.
It's not supposed to be like this.
>>1002128
If you're trying to apply logic to religion the answer is always gonna be
>cuz Gods plan, now shut up
>>1002418
It's not going to be like this in the Kingdom, either.
Isaiah 11
Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist. And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.…
>>1002452
Not shut up. Hop on board.
>>1002420
Is Kek a better deity than the Abrahmic one? Should I start praying to Kek?
>>1002226
If they didn't need to know right from wrong, then where's the justification in punishing them for eating the fruit? They DON'T NEED to know right from wrong, hence they don't need to know that it is wrong to eat it.
God is a retard in this picture. He is basically like:
>I have given you everything and you have no rights and wrongs to worry about, for you are free of them, your actions are innocent and pure. BUT DON'T YOU FUCKING EVEN THINK ABOUT EATING THAT GOD DAMN FRUIT FROM THAT ASSHOLE SNAKE.
>>1002457
Kek makes the memes real
praise Kek, god of dankness
>>1002437
>>1002453
I also think that translation in general has a lot of issues. Also I should note I am not a Christian. I find many mythologies fascinating and think Christianities is very interesting, but I see them all as myths by early man trying to figure out existence and it's purpose. So we may be coming at this from very different perspectives.
>>1002466
God gave them the same deal He gave you. Believe me, or not. Obey me, or not. Live with me, or not.
Same deal. Same number of "rules", too. One.
Believe.
>>1002466
It's a myth trying to understand the world and why it is the way it is. You shouldn't get hung up on specifics like that. It's all a metaphor.
>>1002472
Yes, inside and outside. You made a fatal assumption, however, when you assume that an outsider can understand the things of God. But keep searching for the truth, and you will eventually find Jesus, Who is the truth.
>>1002479
It's all quite literally true.
It's more like a metaphor describing the trust betrayal.
>>1002478
But they were innocent and pure, eating the fruit was an action of innocence. Therefore the "impurity" that came after is hardly impurity, but actually still characteristic of innocence.
Good and evil, right and wrong emerged in the world via innocence according to this allegory. These things are innocent then.
>>1002288
I have a moral sense. The story explicitly says they did not until they at from the tree.
They also had no life experience with which to make sensible judgments
>>1002504
Disbelief and disobedience are acts of rebellion. They were created in God's image, on God's side, and joined the devil in his rebellion against God.
>>1002510
When the bible says everything is basically herbivorous, you have to go out of your way not to take that statement on its face.
I suggest to you that you may have more bias than you would be comfortable admitting, especially considering that you're calling Genesis a "myth".
>>1002395
<<<<<<<<</politics and christians/...
>>1002511
They knew God, and they knew this serpent/enchanter was not God.
They knew God said don't eat the fruit, or you'll die.
They knew the serpent/enchanter said "did God really say that? No, you won't die. Eat it. It's good to eat. It will make you know good and evil, and be like God."
I don't know why you people are trying to give Adam and Eve a pass for this. Because of their sin, you were born spiritually dead and may end up in hellfire forever.
>>1002518
Creator of a car do not manage the car; Creator of a mobile phone do not manage the mobile phone; creator of family grand-father do not manage the family, etc...
>>1002518
>and joined the devil in his rebellion against God
Without a moral sense, i.e. innocently so, unknowingly that this was "wrong".
It's like an infant crawling over to Satan and letting him cradle it, and then punishing the fucking infant for it.
>God in charge of knowing who to blame and having a good moral sense himself
>>1002526
>When the bible says everything is basically herbivorous, you have to go out of your way not to take that statement on its face.
That's why I said this. " I think many early myths can be very insightful to modern people. But I think taking them too literally can be bad."
The Christian creation myth is interesting, but it's not a true, literal story. It's a myth. To take a myth as literal actually makes it harder to understand because they often don't make literal sense.
There was never a time in actual history when carnivorous animals like foxes and lions subsisted on vegetable matter. To read the story like it's a literal account makes it harder to understand the message the story is trying to send.
>>1002537
The creator of your family's grandfather actually did manage his family, or you would not be alive.
>>1002543
Innocently? Again, why do you impute ignorance to Adam and Eve, when you are multiple generations of broken code away from them? Does code get better as it breaks down?
>>1002551
You can say it is a myth, but that obviously has no bearing on anyone but you. There was a time when everything ate plants, and there will again be a time when everything eats plants.
Because it's properly in the bible, and therefore true.
>>1002551
>To read the story like it's a literal account makes it harder to understand the message the story is trying to send.
It's not difficult at all.
The world is broken. There's something wrong. The animals are eating each other. Things are not as they should be.
It's a rather simple message, actually.
>>1002561
Eating the fruit gave them knowledge of good and evil. This implies that before eating it, they DID NOT have knowledge of good and evil. This means all of their actions were completely amoral, innocent like a baby's, up until eating the fruit.
What I am saying here is that "up until eating the fruit" is bullshit. Not only are Adam and Eve and humanity in general being condemned for doing something they did innocently, but because it was done innocently, it's pretty bullshit to think that the innocence EVER STOPPED. The knowledge of good and evil was destined to happen, innocence made it happen. If they knew good from evil, then maybe they would have stayed away from the fruit, but they needed to eat the fruit in order to know this, so the whole thing doesn't fucking work at all.
All in all what this means to me is that God wanted them to eat the fruit. He not only allowed it to happen, he practically coerced it to happen.
>>1002324
>They made their choice
Eve pressured/coerced Adam
>>1002566
>>1002573
This is why I said I believe it's bad to try and interpret myths as historical fact. We know a lot about the natural history of the world and the journey from single celled organisms to complex multicelled beings such as us.
There has never, ever been a time when carnivorous animals subsisted on plants. There simply hasn't.
>>1002600
>This means all of their actions were completely amoral, innocent like a baby's, up until eating the fruit.
In his interpretation, humans should have been perfectly obedient. That they weren't perfectly obedient is the punishment I suppose. Like I say, don't try to take it to literally, the story breaks down when you do that.
>>1002532
>Because of their sin, you were born spiritually dead and may end up in hellfire forever.
lol
>>1002532
Your giving them moral agency when the bible itself says they didn't have it.
having moral agency is not simply being able to list of facts, as you should know if you ever had to make a difficult choice.
If you choose to take this ridiculous story to heart than that it on you
>>1002604
So it's the woman's fault. Does this make the Bible sexist?
>>1002128
>Catholic problems
>>1002637
If sexist means that you think men should be in charge of everything, including women, then yes the bible is sexist.
>>1002627
>In his interpretation, humans should have been perfectly obedient
Man, God is a shitty parent. Who the hell honestly expects their infant children to be 100% obedient all the time? How can "obedience" even be known without knowledge of good and evil?
>they are disobedient once, unknowingly since they are without moral sense
>ETENAL HELLFIRE FOR YOU AND ALL YOUR OFFSPRING UNLESS THEY SUCK MY DICK FOREVER
What a fag.
>>1002594
You can watch bears and lions eat grass on Youtube.
>>1002600
You have lived your entire life by your knowledge and application of good and evil.
Are you holy?
Are you as God?
>>1002604
Highlighting that Adam disobeyed willingly; he was not deceived, as Eve was.
>>1002627
It only makes sense literally. When you abandon the literal, you dismiss facts.
>>1002655
Exactly. Which is why if you take the story literally, you come away with the sense that God is an asshole who puts humans in a doomed situation and then wags his finger at them for eternity over it.
However if you look at it as the myth that it is, you can find some wisdom in it and understand it as a story humans told to try and understand the universe. That's what myths are, and they're very powerful.
But don't get caught up in the details. They're not about that, and they change with re-tellings and translations anyways.
>>1002628
I'm not sure what part of being alone, and on fire, forever, is funny. Care to enlighten me?
>>1002634
They had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God, and had to override His instructions in order to sin.
That's how I live; not by my knowledge of good and evil, but by the instructions of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God. As intended.
>>1002671
What makes you think god is holy? Or good? Or all powerful?
You don't exactly need to be all powerful to lie to someone as naive as you
>>1002637
The bible says she was deceived. It it her fault for being deceived? Or is it the devil's for deceiving her?
>>1002655
If you want to be like God, and live with God, yes you have to be 100% perfect, as He is.
Are you 100% perfect, as God is?
>>1002682
I know Him, and I know Him to be holy.
>>1002676
If you pay attention to facts you will understand that the story is not and can't have been literal.
Do you honestly believe that the one translation of the one set of myths you adhere to is the sole literal truth of the universe? You are positing that the hundreds of thousands of other variations and completely different creation myths would have to all be false, in order for the one you adhere to to be true.
>>1002128
Name me a creation myth that makes more sense.
>>1002669
Which I have always been given the explanation they do as it makes it easier to digest meals. The grass can't be digested, so its mass and form adds in breaking down the other food the lion or bear eats.
from what I understand the Western and Eastern takes on the Fall are different.
Western Christianity is largely influence by Augustinian theology in its understanding of the fall as a case where Adam & Eve are criminals in the court of God who are punished along with their descendants. Christ pays the penalty for men's sins because there must be retribution according to the Law.
In Eastern Christianity (Orthodox), Adam & Eve are understood more as victims of a criminal's actions, that is of Satan's deceit, and the rest of humanity does not share in the blame for their sin, but is only experiencing the residual effects of their sin. In this scenario, man is essentially innocent and being forced with a burden he never asked for and Christ's death serves to free man from this burden, which is also an expression of God's love and compassion, not a means of appeasing his wrath or sense of justice.
The second view seems to also be shared between Eastern Christianity and Islam, although Muslims probably follow this to a conclusion of denying the necessity of Christ's death for salvation and even denying or doubting the historical account of it.
>>1002688
But I could talk to people from 100 different religions who will all say they feel just as much conviction. But all of you cannot be correct, if as you say your version of the story is the literal truth.
So here's the conundrum. A Muslim, a Protestant, a Catholic, a Jew, a Zoroastrian, all feel equally certain that their interpretation of God's will is the correct one and they all feel they know him.
How can anyone tell who is right and who is wrong? You feel certain, but so do the others.
>>1002678
>However if you look at it as the myth that it is, you can find some wisdom in it and understand it as a story humans told to try and understand the universe. That's what myths are, and they're very powerful.
I don't see how it's that awesome a passage even taken in that way. It just boils down to the Greek philosopher Anaximander's bullshit about humans paying penance for their guilty existence, evidenced by the fact we experience and suffer from death. Anaximander was way more on the money about this stuff than the Bible was since he was a philosopher, but even then, the dude was just a moralist putting blame on things for no reason / some warped reason he came up with about the nature of existence.
Bottom line is that evil is innocent too, it deserves sanction into the realm of innocence just like good or amoral activities do, because deep down we are not fully in control of ourselves. To blame us for being something we have no control over is utterly retarded. I would rather "burn in hell for eternity" than willingly submit to blatant anti-intellectual retardation such as this. In this sense it almost seems heroic and just to want to rebel against God.
>>1002695
We all came from the same beginnings. The stories people told from the beginning are all about the same beginning.
The stories told by the men of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, are true.
The stories told by Cain, and Ham, and Nimrod, inspired by the devil, are lies.
If you are going to read everything, it would behoove you to be able to discern truth from lies. There's nothing in the bible that is a lie, unless it is the true account of someone telling a lie.
And yes, I trust God to make, keep, and instruct God's people in what God wants us to know. Other people, well, they're really standing in quicksand when they claim to have the truth on their side.
>>1002701
That may be true now; it was not always the case.
Things are not now as they have always been, nor will things be as they are now.
Change happens quickly, and catastrophically.
>>1002700
In the beginning, there was nothing in the world but Ahura Mazda, the Wise Lord, who lived in the Endless Light. And the evil Evil Spirit Ahriman, who lived in the Absolute Darkness. And between these realms was emptiness.
One day, Ahura Mazda decided to make different creations. First he shaped the sky made of metal, shining and bright. Second, he made pure water. Third, he created the earth, flat and round with no mountains or valleys. Fourth he made the plants, moist with no thorns. Fifth, created animals, big and small.
Then, the Zoroastrian creation myth continues, he created the First Man, called Gayomard, bright, tall, and handsome. Last he created fire and distributed it withing the creation. The Wise Lord ordered fire to serve mankind in preparing food and overcoming cold.
The Evil Spirit peeked out of his dark world to see all the amazing new creations. The Wise Lord called him and said: "Evil Spirit! Aid my creatures and give them praise so that you will be immortal". The Evil Spirit snarled: "Why should I aid your creatures? Why Should I praise them? I am more powerful!< I will destroy you and your creatures". Then he crawled back to the darkness to shape demons, witches, and monsters to attack the Endless Light.
The Wise Lord was All-Knowing. He knew what the Evil Spirit was doing, and he also knew would be a great battle with the Dark side. So the Wise Lord fashioned six spirit: The Holy Immortals, to guard His creations against the Endless Darkness. The Wise Lord shaped the Holy Immortals from his own soul, each giving His own nature.
>>1002718
I would challenge you to seriously consider a universe where God is not holy, and what such a universe would look like with zero restraint or containment of evil.
>>1002718
>Muslim, a Protestant, a Catholic, a Jew, a Zoroastrian
These people are all reading Genesis, by the way, and all saying it is the correct account.
>>1002720
>evil is innocent
You are blessed to have never encountered evil in your life. Such blessings are not guarantees.
>>1002734
The Zoroastrian does?
>>1002735
How do you know I haven't encountered evil? How do you know I'm not evil myself?
>>1002741
Yes. Zoroaster was a Persian when the Jews were in captivity in Babylon, and then Persia when the Medeo-Persian empire overthrew Babylon. He read the Jews' holy books and believed them, adopted them as his own, and added his family's fire god worship into them. He's basically a Jew, with a little pagan fire god thrown in for flavor.
>>1002751
Because you think evil is innocent.
>>1002686
In a deterministic world, yes, I am 100% perfect as is everyone else, for we were all destined to be. Imperfections are impossible in a deterministic world view.
>>1002720
Yeah I agree that it's not amazing. But it is an interesting myth, one of the few that starts at a time when humans were the same as we are now but also still animals.
>>1002723
I don't mean to be rude, but this is supposed to be a history board. You are citing religious writings as historic fact despite the fact that it simply is not. It's partly my fault for having clicked on a thread of this topic in the first place, but we really have nothing to discuss. I think you're dangerously wrongheaded, but what you want to believe is up to you.
>>1002735
1. Admit you are evil, and repent, and are saved; or
2. Know you are evil, do not repent, and burn forever in a lake of fire.
Which of those two alternatives would the wise man choose?
>>1002759
Too bad you do not live in such a world.
>>1002752
Anywhere I can read more on this?
>>1002764
Nothing in that post is not pure history.
>>1002755
Thinking because suffering from some evil is unenjoyable that it is then not innocent is a pretty simplistic and erroneous view of what innocence is.
To be innocent simply means to be ignorant and true to oneself. A malevolent force that wishes to deceive, manipulate, rape and kill, as wicked as its effects may feel to you, can still be said to be ignorant of the greater forces of nature that control it and be true to itself.
>>1002767
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism
>>1002752
But Zoroaster is believed to have lived at least before 1000BC while the Jewish capticy started after 600BC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster#Date
>>1002731
Well I don't actually believe good and evil exist in the same way you do. I believe they're two sides of the same coin and matters of perspective. The rabbit and the fox.
>>1002734
But giving very different accounts of it. If you try to say one is literally correct, it makes the others false by default. That's why I picked that specific group of religions.
>>1002773
Yes, evil people can rationalize anything. As you are doing now.
And yes, I do believe you are evil.
>>1002131
Yeah, it just a metaphor for how humans, given a perfect situation, will always do bad, it's in our basic nature, this is because God gave us the free will we have (he may have a plan, but he chooses not to know it for our free will)
This story is a way of telling Christians they are bad, so they must believe in Christ Jesus to repent and become good people.
>>1002784
Why would God make us bad? He's a perfect creator.
>>1002766
I can when I want to, it's just a state of mind. Which means that all of its opposites are also states of the mind.
Which means that I can now say, with confidence: the REAL eternal hellfire here is the Bible's damnation of innocent behavior, and the philosophical imagining of a deterministic world view where all things are already perfect is the true heaven on earth.
>>1002781
They aren't different accounts. They're all from Genesis.
A different account would be from Sumeria. That you do not have in your head that there is true, and there is false, and that anything that is not false is true, and anything that is not true is false, is rather ponderous as this is a board for adults only.
>>1002765
repent to what? a trinitarian god? a unitarian god? the arian god? and what church? catholic? orthodox? baptist? calvinist? lutheran?
>>1002770
>Nothing in that post is not pure history.
Yeesh.... I really shouldn't have been surprised that a history forum on 4chan would have people insisting that the bible is a purely accurate historical document, but it is a little sad.
>>1002788
He made us good, and he made the devil good. Both rebelled against God, sinned, and fell short of His glory.
Luckily, He cared about saving us. The fallen angels are doomed. All of them.
>>1002790
If you can choose to live in a deterministic world, or not, then even you believe in your heart that your choices matter.
>>1002783
>And yes, I do believe you are evil.
Good, being evil is badass.
But it also makes my occasional generosity and deep admirations for life appear so much more beautifully. This is something all goody two-shoes miss out on by refraining from ever being evil.
>>1002778
>>1002785
Wait, are you arguing against him being inspired by the Jews in Babylon? Because this do contradict that statement a bit.
> Christianity. According to the tradition in the Parsee books, Zoroaster was born in 660 B.C. and died in 583; but many scholars claim that he must have flourished at a much earlier time. All investigators, however, are agreed that his teachings were generally in force throughout Iran before the time of the Jewish Captivity.
>>1002242
but without right and wrong you can't understand that being ungrateful is wrong.
>>1002793
>this is a board for adults only.
And you just went full 4chan. When all else fails, pull the "you must be young" card in the hopes that will shut them up. This place is pathetic sometimes.
>>1002688
How can you know for sure he's holy? Unless you're saying you're all knowing, there's always the possibility he's lying
>>1002794
I think you should remember that the Jewish tanakh was written well before the Babylonian captivity; Moses wrote the torah @ 1446 BC, and the Babylonian captivity is in @600 BC. Many of the prophets writing about the Babylonian captivity were obviously still writing, but for the most part, the things in Judaism that are in Zoroastrianism are in the torah, completed centuries prior.
It's hard to imagine the later influencing the earlier.
>>1002795
There is only One God, and if you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him.
>>1002796
I'd like you to give me one single solitary example of where the history in the bible is inaccurate.
>>1002806
Good people miss nothing by not being evil.
>>1002807
The time of the Jewish captivity is centuries after the torah is written. And what we know of Zoroastrianism is from a fairly modern source.
>>1002822
So how did then Zoroaster get to read their works if he lived long before the Babylonian captivity? I suppose the chance of encountering Jewish scriptures in Afghanistan where he lived had to be rather slim.
>>1002814
>Just because it's a lie doesn't mean it's not true!
Are you 12?
>>1002818
You'll know when you draw near to Him. The difference between your state and His state becomes not only obvious, but painful.
>>1002831
You claimed he was a Persian when the Jews were in Babylon. That is obviously wrong.
>>1002832
That's during the Jewish captivity. 598 to 528ish BC.
>>1002846
The Medeo-Persian empire overthrew the Babylonian empire when the Jews were captives.
>>1002846
Oh, sorry. Pay more attention to the people saying he must have been born and died at later dates than you're looking at.
>>1002841
How do you know it's the real thing?
It's all circular. God is good because he told you. And he wouldn't lie because he's good. And he's good because he told you. It's all a load of shit, you don't actually know anything because you're depending on the word of something that's more than capable of lying.
>>1002826
Well the myth we're talking about in this thread isn't historically accurate. There was never a time when the human population of Earth was 2 people. And there was no singular fruit that one of them was tricked by a snake/devil into eating which cursed their descendants ever since.
There has also never been a time in history when carnivorous animals such as lions had a diet of vegetable matter. Never.
If you want to tell me you believe it's historically accurate because that's what you have been told and want to believe, that's fine and I'm not going to bother trying to change your mind.
But you telling me you think Lions should naturally sleep beside lambs and both eat grass is historical fact is ridiculous to me so I find everything else you have to say hard to take seriously.
>>1002873
How do you know you are you?
You will know God is God the same way you know you are you.
>>1002801
Indeed they do. So I make the choice that seems smarter, more beneficial, more loving to me — eternal perfection and blessing under the light of the philosophical notion of determinism, and a rejection of a discipline which itself is the originator of evil and imperfection, which is Christianity.
>>1002874
>There was never a time when the human population of Earth was 2 people.
This is obviously false, and unfounded, and baseless opinion.
As is the rest of your post.
Find one thing, just one thing, that the bible says is history that isn't.
>>1002828
Except being sexy and badass and tragically romantic.
>>1002879
Christianity is just believing the truth; that Jesus really is God, and He really did rise from the dead.
You have no information contrary to that.
>>1002882
Joan d' Arc was all of those things.
>>1002876
I didn't say that, you were the ones to make the claim Judaism influenced Zoroastrianism through the captivity of babylon.
>>1002784
> given a perfect situation,
What's perfect about le bad tree and le bad snake? Does the word perfect mean nothing to you christfag mongrels?
>>1002888
A fair reading demonstrates that there are heavy influences between Judaism and Zoroastrianism.
Since we have far better records of what the Jews believed, and when, we have a far greater confidence that the Jews influenced the Persians, rather than the other way around. And it was the Persians who set the Jews free to return to Israel, and rebuild their temple. There was no animosity there.
>>1002893
Never trust anyone who says the bible is just metaphor. They're ignorant.
>>1002877
You know I wasn't acting sophistic there. I'm just pointing out you're taking something at their word and going around in circles to prove your points.
>>1002895
Though there is literally no Historical proof at all that Moses lead the Jews out of Egypt so we may just as well assume he was added later to give authority to Judanism.
And why would it have to be a lack of animosity for them to let the Jews do that? They were the enemies of one of their subjugated peoples, they should have no reason to be hostile against them.
>>1002895
Isaiah
"The one saying of Cyrus, He is my shepherd and all that I delight in he wi1l completely carry out.' Even in (my) saying of Jerusalem, 'She will be rebuilt and the temple.....foundation laid" (verse 44.28).
"This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed One, to Cyrus whose right hand I have taken hold of to subdue before him Nations..." (verse 45.1)
"I myself have roused up someone in righteousness, He is the one that will build my city and those of mine in exile he will let go, not for a price nor for bribery. (verse 45.13).
Note Cyrus was named in the bible before he appeared on the scene. I'm sure that made quite an impression.
>>1002899
I'm not. You're saying that because you assume I do not know the living God.
I know the living God.
>>1002905
There's becoming more and more evidence, although the bible, and 3500+ annual Passover festivals suffice. There's the Illwur papyrus, the monument Solomon built on the other side of the Alaqaba, and the fact that they Hyskos just walked in and took over Egypt without a fight.
You have to have eyes to see.
>>1002909
Actually, I know the living God. He said the Bible is a book of lies, and you specifically - yes you - are a shyster who should off himself to have a chance of forgiveness.
>>1002909
Because he told you, right?
>>1002128
They knew right from wrong as soon as they ate of the fruit of Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, duh.
That's the whole point, they lost their innocence.
>>1002880
>This is obviously false, and unfounded, and baseless opinion.
It's not false. It's not unfounded, we have a great deal of historical evidence of humanity's history. It's not baseless and it's not opinion.
You trying to tell me that lions used to subsist on eating grass is ridiculous. Not only does it make absolutely no scientific or historical sense (they have neither the physical nor bacterial capacity to even digest grass) it doesn't even really make sense in the context of the story.
This is very literally like someone trying to tell me with complete seriousness that Apollo still drives the sun across the sky in his chariot. And that when I point out it's simply factually wrong, they say it's a baseless opinion.
I have tried to be polite, but we have nothing to talk about.
>>1002925
No, because He is God.
I don't know who told you people that God isn't known, can't be known, doesn't want to be known, but I do know who started that lie.
>>1002824
alright, so you are unitarian? or that statement also fits with Islam, Judaism or Zoroastrianism
>>1002919
You have tacked on and added baggage to Christianity that doesn't belong, and then rejected it.
Jesus really is God, and He really did rise from the dead, defeating death itself.
>>1002934
Out of this sacred temple, snake.
>>1002934
Himself?
If I was all powerful I'd fuck with gullible retards all day. Seems like a fun hobby
>>1002911
I am really sorry, but how does Solomon's monyment prove anything?
And the Hyskos invasion? enlighten me.
>>1002933
Story:
Beginning: Adam and Eve walking with God in the Garden of Eden, with absolutely nothing wrong. Everything ate plants, and everything lived happily together.
Fall of Man: Exile, sin, death, sorrow, pain, disease, suffering, evil. Nothing is like it was before.
Kingdom of God: We're going back to Eden, everything will once again eat plants, but this time the devil and his demons will be chained up.
Result: Mankind will join satan in a rebellion after a thousand years of justice, peace, and prosperity.
Lesson: Mankind is broken.
>>1002938
won't be long before defeating death was just "a metaphor"
>>1002937
A Trinitiarian believes in One God. I am a Trinitarian.
>>1002938
>defeating death itself
I did that too. It's called philosophy, the Antichrist's weapon and God's bane and eternal thorn in his ass.
>>1002959
trinitarian =/= one
>>1002680
>things nowhere in genesis that I read into it
>>1002951
Solomon built a monument as a reminder of God parting the Red Sea for the children of Israel. And history records that the Hyskos people just walked in and took over Egypt without a fight.
Which is what you would expect with Egypt having no pharaoh and their army dead at the bottom of the sea.
>>1002958
It will never be anything but literal, and a promise to do the same to all who believe.
>>1002128
Its an allegory for man coming out of nature and becoming self aware.
Jesus.
>>1002973
God: The very day you eat that fruit, you will die.
Adam: Eats fruit. Lives 900 years.
Eve: Eats fruit. Lives 800 years.
Did God lie? Was God wrong? Or are we using God's definitions of life and death, definitions you've never considered?
>>1002977
Fly, you fool.
>>1002955
>Story:
Yeah, it's a story. It's not a historical document. There was never, ever a time when everything ate plants. Microbes had been eating each other in great abundance for billions of years before either plants and animals existed.
And the saddest part of all this is that in taking it literally, you miss out on the purpose of the story in the first place. But like I say, I've wasted too much of my time here already.
Have a nice life.
>>1002981
The irony.
>>1002981
>nature
>sitting around naming animals and being made out of dirt
>>1002974
the Hyksos invasion happened long before the Israelites supposedly left egypt. Hyksos invasion happened in about 1800BC. according to the bible the invasion of canaan was in about 1400BC
>>1002986
Nobody went to save him. What bastards.
>>1002988
Prove that there has never been a time when animals ate only plants.
>>1002984
>Did God lie?
Probably.
> Was God wrong?
Probably.
>>1002991
>being unaware of the self and living in a state of co-existence with nature.
>becoming aware of the self and living in a state where good and bad are now active free choices outside of nature.
I mean come on man.
Its blatantly obvious.
>>1002984
God sees all time simultaneously. For all purposes a day is the same as a thousand years to him.
So as soon as Adam steps off the eternal path, that's basically it.
>>1002981
>implying human awareness isn't a part of nature
>implying that anything unnatural could ever actually happen in nature
Absence of all logic and sensible thought, I choose you! -- Christians
>>1002996
There has never been a time where lions ate only plants, because the first herbivores in their genetic tree date millions of years back, and they weren't lions.
What are you calling proof, other than "this book dun said it"?
>>1002993
Thutimaos is generally thought to be the obscure Thirteenth Dynasty king Dudimose (the other kings with a similar reign are too late to be contenders) who reigned shortly before or concurrently with the Hyksos Dynasty at Avaris. The passage is ambiguous, but it may refer to two events; the smiting by God (which some have chosen to see as a reference to the events surrounding the Exodus), and the invasion of the Hyksos. It was previously thought that one reason for their ease in conquering upper Egypt was that they had chariots (unlike the Egyptians) and were exceptional archers. There is some evidence that the Egyptians already had chariots, but they may well have been less experienced in their use. More speculatively, you could argue that the smiting by god left Egypt undefended, allowing the Hyksos to take control "without striking a blow".
Remember that time when everyone asked for a board to discuss religion?
Remember when you get it?
Theology != Humanities,
>>>/out/
>>1003005
I thought that was Dr Manhattan
>>1002997
You need a better definition of God. Yours is worthless.
>>1003005
so god is terrible at communicating or unaware of how humans see the passage of time
>>1003005
Nope.
Want to try again?
>>1003000
What's the rest of the story about then? Should it be disregarded completely?
>>1003013
Prove it.
>>1003019
My definition of god is the description of the violent petty psychopathic murderfiend of the "good book". I'm not interested in your wishywash.
>>1003014
>More speculatively, you could argue that the smiting by god left Egypt undefended,
no shit more speculatively, especially when you are screwing around with the timeline
>>1003023
I mean, its all just a metaphorical representation of the coming into being of the world.
So sure.
>>1003026
>Prove it.
DNA.
Now I'll ask you again,
>What are you calling proof, other than "this book dun said it"?
>>1003029
I know you're not interested in the real God, because the god you imagined sucks.
>>1003030
That was from a hostile website, not a Christian or Jewish apologetics website. There the obvious facts are obvious.
>>1003036
Prove DNA means that animals always ate other animals.
>>1003041
>I know you're not interested in the real God
Which one?
>because the god you imagined sucks.
I didn't even have to do the imagining part, retarded christfags like yourself did that part for me.
>>1003041
It takes an incredible amount of pride to think that God exists just to babysit a worthless maggot like you
This is God by the way. Cut that shit out
>>1003044
You said it's nowhere in Genesis. It's right there. Eat the fruit, and die that very day. Yet they (physically) lived for centuries past that day.
Was that a big enough hint, or do you need a bigger? Because when they died is relevant to you, as you are made in their image, not in God's.
>>1003047
See? No interest in the one true God.
>>1002996
You can look into biology and history if you want, I'm not going to do that for you. I don't care if you have your head in the sand so deep that you're going to ignore the natural sciences.
Like I say, I may as well be talking to someone who thinks the sun is pulled by Apollo.
>>1003046
Certain animals always did for as long as they existed. Certainly in the past several billion years, which the bible makes no reference to.
>Prove DNA means that animals always ate other animals.
Prove your IQ is over 20.
>>1003045
just because it was not from a apologetics website doesn't mean it was a legitimate source. it certainly isn't the mainstream view. it completely fucks up the timeline of Egypt's rivalry with the Hittites in the levant and the entire late bronze age period
>>1003060
Prove it.
You made a claim: The bible is false, because animals always ate other animals.
Just prove it. Is that too much to ask?
Prove the bible is false, and win your $1,000,000.
>>1003045
What's the website called?
>>1003054
>misrepresenting the concept of God
Cmon man. At least try.
>>1003062
Prove it.
At a 20 IQ, I would be incapable of speaking down to you.
>>1003065
I'm not sure the godless historians are up to speed on the Hittite empire yet, since they denied it existed for thousands of years.
If this is anywhere near your field, you know that dating things in and from Egypt is more guesswork than math.
>>1003072
>At a 20 IQ, I would be incapable of speaking down to you.
Prove it, you fucking mongoloid.
>>1003068
http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/hyksos.html
>>1003066
different anon but i can easily prove the bible wrong and win that money: insects don't have 4 legs
>>1003077
I think you just proved it for me.
>>1003083
>I think you just proved it for me.
Oh really? Prove it.
>>1003076
>If this is anywhere near your field, you know that dating things in and from Egypt is more guesswork than math.
so the best you can do is insult long dead views of "godless historians" and say that your guess is no better than mine?
>>1003081
You would have to show me in the bible where God said insects have four legs.
Before you spend that money, you should probably read the verse a little closer.
Insects that fly, but walk around on the ground on 4 legs, like butterflies, are not kosher to eat.
You can watch butterflies walking around on 4 legs on Youtube.
It doesn't say they have only four legs, it says they walk around on only four legs.
>>1003070
I'm God. Why should I adhere to the expectations of an insect?
>>1003085
This is an embarrassment of riches.
>>1003091
The best I can do is tell you the truth, as best as I'm able.
>>1003100
Why would you say that? Prove it.
>>1003104
all you've done is call your unfounded opinion truth
>>1003106
It has been proven thrice over. Every post you make proves that I can condescend to you, which means to speak down to you.
You are now arguing that your IQ is less than 20.
>>1002128
How could Adam and Eve be punished for disobeying God? They weren't even real.
>>1003109
God is true; God's Word is true; and what I have posted herein is true.
I suggest you develop a hunger for the truth, and quickly.
>>1003095
>3000 years of philosophy spent on the concept of God, all of which is easily accessible
>You just want to pretend to be retarded instead
>>1003111
Haven't seen you prove anything, and all your replies to literally anything have been "Prove it." . So do it yourself, prove anything you're saying, fucko.
>>1003116
repeating this mantra doesn't accomplish anything
>>1003121
You would do well to learn how to keep up with threads.
>>1003123
The truth is true; that's not a mantra but an identity.
I suggest you learn how to tell the truth from fiction or lies; so far you've bought every lie the devil told you.
