Is the SS bad if you just wanna look good or is it just a meme?
SS for strenf
SL for assdeaddicks
Firstly, nobody will look good after 4-6 months of working out.
SS will get you a lot stronger than you were when you started, which provides a good base to do effective workouts with in future.
Being able to lift more, means your higher rep workouts will be more effective in helping you gain muscle.
Lifting 8-12 reps with fuccboi weights will not do a great deal. But getting a strength base first will help you get more from your workouts, so SS helps in that regard. Just do SS for a few months then switch to a routine more catered to your goals.
Just don't go full GOMAD and get fat in the pursuit of strength..
>>36577553
Thought low reps + high weight was what helped gain muscle
>>36577535
The whole point of SS is to start, once you get an acceptable level of strenght you are supposed to switch to something else.
>>36577575
no
3-5 for strength
6-7 makes you actively lose all gains and turn into skinnyfat
8-12 for hypertrophy
12+ is for cardio and means no gains
>>36577598
Is this a meme/bait post?
>>36577623
No, there's also 13-20 (gets you jacked 3x as fast) and 21-55 (piano mode)
>>36577623
>>36577623
>>36577623
its half meme posting
for a serious answer
1-5 strength
8-12 hypertrophy
you might want to do higher reps of 20 or some shit for things like calves
The SS is supposed to be done while adding weight, so I guess it is usually done while gaining weight. If I am to cut a bit before starting to gain weight, should i wait to to the SS while bulking? And what should I do while cutting?
>>36577653
So I need the strength before I can lift for hypertrophy?
>>36577681
its best that way yes
>>36577681
You dont NEED it.
but it helps with making hypertrophy training more effective.
Lifting 10kg for 12 reps vs lifting 25kg for 12 reps. Its clear which will help more, and strength training will help you progress your high rep weights more than starting with just high rep training with babby weights;.
>>36577681
The logic is strength training builds up your central nervous system in recruiting muscles.
Once you have a strong CNS, you'll be using more muscle fibers when you do those 8-12 hypertrophy sets.
I dunno if that's just broscience though desu.
>>36577684
>>36577692
>>36577696
Thanks guys
>>36577553
Pretty much.
You will still look a hellova lot better at the end of 6months of SS. By the time I reached 1/2/3/4 pl8 I was much, much bigger, just not that much definition.
Do SS until you stall then move on depending on your goals.
>>36577696
Not sure if broscience but it would make sense that squating 315 for reps would build more muscle than squating 115 for reps
plus isn't size of muscle and cns the biggest limitations to strength?
so once you really crank up the cns activity the biggest limitation is muscle and they have to grow to keep progressing
>>36577553
>Lifting 8-12 reps with fuccboi weights will not do a great deal
So why so many good programs have 8-12 rep range? Lyle McDonald's Beginner Routine, Kilgore's Fit, AllPro, Cosgrove's NROL etc.
>strength base first
It's a meme, everyone knows that you should get strength endurance base first (10-15 rep range), then hypertrophy (8-12 rep range) and only then strength.
>>36577716
The three big limitations to strength are, in no particular order: Muscle mass, fibre activation (basically what people mean when they say 'cns' or similar), technical proficiency.
You don't actually need low reps to work on the activation, but it is usually the quickest way to do it. Also tends to be the best for ingraining form, although that's only true if you're well away from failure (fatigue is what murders form in beginners more than anything else, which is why a lot of beginners powerlifting and oly lifting programs will ramp up the sets and do shit tons of sub-max singles/doubles/triples).
>>36577696
Yeah, that's bro science.
>>36577716
>Not sure if broscience but it would make sense that squating 315 for reps would build more muscle than squating 115 for reps
No. Muscle size is dependent on volume, not intensity.
>plus isn't size of muscle and cns the biggest limitations to strength?
Only the CNS. Strength = Ability to recruit muscles fibers, size doesn't have much to do with it.
>>36577631
I can't believe someone went through the effort to make this
>>36577762
I saw same thing in some russian powerlifting programs. If someone skinny begins to train, they usually do 2 days a week of something like this
(A)
1. Squat 3x10
2. Bench press 3x10
3. Split-squat 3x10
4. Incline dimbbell press 3x10
(B)
1. Deadlift 3x8
2. Bench press 3x10
3. Goodmornings 3x10
4. Dips 3x10
>>36577653
>>36577598
>muh rep ranges
>>36577535
SS will make you both bigger and stronger than any other beginner routine. However, it is a BEGINNER routine, and meant to be used for 9 months, TOPS. Really, that's if you're really doing it right with regards to eating and sleeping AND want to milk every last drop out of it with the "advanced beginner" phase. 6 months of Doing It Right (eat and sleep more) is probably good enough for most purposes.
However, that's still less than a year. Even if you do everything right and take steroids, you won't be particularly big or shredded. You MAY be scrawny, but then you done fucked up on a fundamental level.
>>36577598
Studies have shown that, in beginners, there is very little difference in sized gained between 5 reps and 8-10 reps.
>>36577623
The 6-7 rep range is a joke, yeah. People would usually say 3-5 for strength, and 8-12 for max hypertrophy (and in intermediate level trainees, this is much more true than in n00bs). Some wise ass confirmed it, saying "yeah, that's why I never do heavy sets of 8. If it gets too heavy and I can only get seven, I get NO GAINZ."
It kind of took off from there.
>>36577801
>this 2-week studies on beginners
>>36577812
>Studies have shown that, in beginners, there is very little difference in sized gained between 5 reps and 8-10 reps
if thats the case doing reps of 5 seems better in just about every way
>>36577669
Bumping for this
>>36577785
No one listen to this idiot.
>No. Muscle size is dependent on volume, not intensity.
Doing a million bodyweight squats will not make you big, even if it's a shit ton of volume. The goal in "hypertrophy" training is to push the metabolic process used in lifting from the ATP breakdown into the glycolytic range. This tends to be around 8-12 reps. Many more reps than that, and the weight isn't heavy enough to drive muscle growth, and is simply training the aerobic pathways (read: cardio).
>Only the CNS. Strength = Ability to recruit muscles fibers, size doesn't have much to do with it.
You're a retard. Size is important. If the muscle doesn't have a large cross-section, no amount of CNS recruitment is going to produce much strength because there are simply not enough contractile fibers.
Obviously having an abundance of contractile fibers and lacking the ability to recruit a large portion of them at once isn't a whole lot better, but happily, at least for less advanced trainees, pure strength training will also cause significant size increase.
>>36577801
Do note that these studies are most likely on "random" samples. Which is going to mean primarily COMPLETELY untrained scrubs. Which is handy knowledge for n00bs, but not necessarily for people who are already pretty well trained, at least to the point they can no longer do a Linear Progression program
>>36577850
so you're saying without size you wont get stronger? or the other way round?
>>36577863
so do SL / SS for around 6 months then switch to something 8-12 reps for hypertrophy?
why can't you do SS in the 8-12 rep range? for like 3 sets if it gets too intenste
>>36577889
Both, eventually.
If you don't gain size, eventually you hit a point where you're just not getting stronger. Once your technique is optimised and your recruitment is about as good as its going to get, you've got nothing left to add unless you bring more mass to the table. This does take quite a while but progress slows and slows before it stops.
Likewise, if you want to get bigger at some point you're going to have to get stronger. Curling the same weight week after week eventually stops getting a response out of the body- at which point you've got to increase your workload.
>>36577889
Let me TRY to be clear.
All other things equal, the bigger muscle will be the stronger one.
All other things equal, the muscle that is more fully recruited by the CNS will be the stronger muscle.
Typical strength training (mostly sets of 5 or fewer) will yield the best CNS adaptation, along with appreciable size increases by muscles growing and adding contractile fibers, particularly in beginners.
Typical hypertrophy focused training (mostly in the 8-12 rep range, possibly SOME sets of 5 with the big compound lifts to get some strength to be able to lift heavier weights for 8-12 reps) will, in trainees beyond the beginner phase, do a better job of increasing the contractile fibers. However, due to sets of 8-12 never requiring one to push one's CNS to activate as much of the muscle as possible all at once, the CNS adaptation is significantly less than in strength training, ultimately making the trainee less strong than the pure strength trainer. Though if he's done it right, he'll be bigger.
Hypertrophy training in beginners won't yield great CNS adaptation (there WILL be some adaptation, because in beginners pretty much anything will accomplish SOMETHING), and size gains will taper off really quick because the n00b trainee never built the strength needed to increase the weight while doing 8-12 reps.
Regardless of your goals, you NEED to have a plan to increase the weights your lifting. It's the only way to sustain progress. Beginners should focus primarily on making the weight increase, so they can more effectively train for hypertrophy when linear progression is no longer possible.
>>36577917
>>36577932
so... size plateu = strength plateu, eat more, increase weights for more strength and size?
and CNS is not size?
>>36577932
noobs should then train for CNS adaptation aka strength and then focus on hypertrophy?
>>36577893
SS IS for 3 sets, largely. Power cleans are 5 sets of 3 reps. Deadlifts are 1 set of 5 reps.
Doing ti for 8-12 reps would have you failing to increase the weight VERY early in the program, and then progress stops and you come to /fit/ whining that SS didn't work even though you did 8-12 reps and we all wonder why we even bother trying to help.
Just do your sets of 5. I recommend SS. 5x5, like in SL, is handy for intermediates who require the extra volume to drive adaptation, but that same volume will make it significantly harder to progress 2-3 times per week (the intermediate is progression only once per week, if that) once the weight starts getting remotely heavy. Plus Power Cleans are fun and useful, and rows are an accessory lift at best.
Also, 6 months in kind of thrown out there as a ballpark number. Don't take it as gospel. What's important is that you put aside your dream of ABZ for a few months and focus on gaining weight (I'm assuming you're just scrawny, not fat, like I was when I started) and sleeping as much as possible, in order to sustain progress as long as possible. Once the rapid n00b CNS gains stop, progress will slow quite briskly and it's time to move to a weekly program.
Or the advanced beginner program for another month-ish. It's in the pic
>>36577966
shit man, thanks for that detailed explanation
also, saved the pic!
>>36577966
but power cleans make me look like a clown
>>36577966
>I'm assuming you're just scrawny, not fat, like I was when I started
around here it's called skinny fat but yeah
>>36577940
CNS is how /fit/ likes to say neuromuscular recruitment. Because that shit is a burden to type out over and over. What we mean is the body's ability to recruit the motor units that signal the muscles to contract. An untrained person's body is not used to recruiting a large portion of their available muscle at once. Beginner programs like SS are largely based on training THAT as quickly as possible, while also creating a good environment for sheer muscle growth.
Both things will happen really fast in beginners. Then they stop really fast. The graph here shows what I mean, if you can understand it.
>>36577947
Basically, yes. Unless they'd like to keep strength training, which is frankly what I've done. If you don't want to be a stout bowling pin of a human being, continued sheer strength training after the novice phase is not what I'd recommend.
However, CNS adaptation, raw strength, and hypertrophy, are not things that can be entirely separated. Certain set/rep schemes might encourage one more than the other, but both will ultimately take place if either is taking place.
>>36577978
You might not be doing them right.
>>36577989
I was figuring either that or full skeleton mode. Either way, my prescription would be SS, and to consider GOMAD. I believe Rippetoe's suggestion for underweight men of your age on SS is to gain 2 lbs per week, which is 48 lbs over 6 months. Which is probably a TEENY bit excessive if you don't want to continue chasing sheer strength after SS.
However, I was 5'10'' and 150 lbs when I started (as light as 140 after a month of bronchitis took away my appetite, but I had recovered from that before I got turned onto weight lifting and SS), and in the mid 180s when I finished, able to squat 355 lbs 3x5.
Though I couldn't do power cleans because the university gym I was in at the time didn't allow them because they didn't have the equipment because they were shit. We didn't REALLY have the equipment needed for deadlifts, we had to make due setting them down WAY too gently.
>>36577669
>>36577829
Okay, it depends. I believe Rippetoe's advice for fat people starting on SS is to limit pure junk food (talking candy bars and soda and shit, not stuff like McDonald's that might actually have protein and other useful nutrients in it), still eat a lot of protein, and kind of aim to stay the same weight, maybe lose some if you're a complete blimp.
Someone 6' and 210 lbs probably doesn't need to lose any weight on SS. Someone who's 6' and 300 lbs probably does.
>>36578036
>2 lbs per week, which is 48 lbs over 6 months
Which would actually be 52 lbs over 6 months, since there are 26 weeks in half a year.
>>36578086
I was using four weeks per month, but I guess after six months those extra few days per month would add into another week or two.
>>36578036
not really underweight though,. 5"8 at 145lbs so pretty normal weight, just fat-ish
>>36578204
Eh, I'd say that's fairly skinnyfat.
Personally, with my unrelenting bias towards being squatfat, I'd recommend getting to 180 lbs minimum. But 170 would probably allow for decent strength and size gains. It's just that only that much weight gain might having you stalling out a bit sooner than that 6 month ballpark.
Just try to gain at least one lbs, preferably 2, per week at the start. If you feel it's getting out of control or too much, you can always slow it down. And you can always trim some fat off after the linear progression has concluded.
>>36578247
sounds like a plan. will do that and continue doing compounds.
thanks a bunch, doesn't happen too often that you get that much of insight/advice on here
>>36578247
>being squatfat
squatfat?
>>36577541
>>36577535
This. Also nice frankjavcee reference. Basically after SL 2-3 months of SL, move onto icecream fitness 5x5 for more aesthetic gains.
>>36578546
ICL is shit, as is SL.
Just do SS, add the Chinups as you should.
Then add what you think needs more work. If you want bigger arms, to Chinups then Skullcrusher on A, then Dips then Curls on B. If you want bigger traps, do Shrugs. etc.
>>36577553
Fuck off you can massively improve your aesthetic if your a skinny fat. If you're very obese then no but most young men are not.
Nah, i look good after SS, and i can now squat 4pl8. I did 6 months of brosplit->6 months of SS and im in my 6th month of PPL.
Just don't eat like shit, i stayed lean the entire time. Started "toned" skelly
Alright /fit/ help me out. Been doing SS for a few months and I'm stalling at 75kg Bench and squat is around 90kg, OHP is around 50 and DL is 120. The thing is everyone says that you're meant to be doing SS for a few months then switch but at the same time I feel too pathetically weak to switch to a different routine. What do?
>>36579975
>just don't eat like shit
What do you mean by this?
What should you go for after SS?
>>36577782
LEVERAGES are a bigger limitation to strength than any of those factors. High bicep insertions can mean up to double the muscular force generation is required compared to low insertions. Similarly, someone with long femurs squatting vs short femurs.
>>36577535
SS is for exactly what the name says it is for: Starting Strength. It's not an expert level program or it would be called Expert Strength. It's not an aesthetics program or it would be called Starting Aesthetics.
>>36580345
Don't drink a gallon of milk a day, don't go out boozing twice a week and finish off a pizza while hungover, don't add unessesary emty calories.
Stay slightly above your daily calorie maintanace get enough protein, (around 100grams a day should be enough)
