any whole food plant based fags here ?
when will we learn what is food....
Going shopping soon, what kind of beans/veg should I get to last me the next couple weeks?
>Only whole foods
Yes
>Only plant based
No
Enjoy malnourisment
>>36067324
dry or canned lentilles , beans ,chickpeas
for protein
frozen broccoli any veggies you like
berries for youre oatmeal breakfast
>>36067388
Sounds perfect, thanks anon.
>>36067379
75 % amerifags are obesse or overweight
2016 you stil think malnourisment is a lack of animal product not calories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-NnM1MnBGw
>>36067379
I'm not a vegan but this meme needs to stop. Vegans can get every nutrient from plants besides b12. And a b12 supp or fortified b12 foods are no different than the foods we omnivores consume.
>>36067464
ty annon
>>36067379
>>36067464
>Vegans can get every nutrient from plants besides b12
Note that NO FOODS naturally contain vitamin B12. It's from dirt. Meat is fortified with it.
Anyway, if anyone wants to convince me to go vegan for purely health reasons:
1. I need to be persuaded that whey isolate and milk protein isolate have deleterious effects. I know the arguments against cow milk in general, but does all of that overlap with the isolates and can you show me that it does?
2. How do you answer for less bioavailability? Wouldn't 24g of whey be better than 24g of pea protein, for example?
Genuinely curious, thanks.
>>36067513
(Let me just add that I've been vegetarian for years and the only animal product I consume is a supplement and bar with whey and milk protein isolate)
>>36067440
The only vegan defence: comparing their diet to junk food diets. Dichotomisation is a pathetic retort, anon.
You can't get all your nutrients from vegan whole foods. It needs to be supplemented.
>>36067464
>Muh whole foods diet.
>Just let me add highly processed supplements to it first.
Vegans can't support themselves 100% on whole foods. They will benefit from having a diet mostly based on whole foods, but it's not sustainable to do it 100%. They will get deficiencies.
>>36067541
What nutrients can a meat-eater get that a vegan cannot?
>>36067513
>NO FOODS naturally contain vitamin B12
>What is meat?
Are you retarded?
Meat, offal and blood from all animals is defined as food (by non-crazy people), and contain b12.
>inb4 it's supplemented in their diet.
some industries does this, not all, and all wild animals have it naturally in their bodies.
>>36067544
see >>36067562
And we're still talking whole foods, so don't get supplemental on me. lel.
>>36067562
>>36067567
I know we're excluding supplements.
You have a gigantic misunderstanding about B12. If an animal has it, it's from bacterial contamination or the livestock has been fed it. B12 is naturally found in soil and dirt.
It's not an inherent property in meat, brother. Probably a bigger myth than "meals before bed cause weight gain".
>>36067513
im an old 37 fag not a green man psycho
i dont whant you to go vegan label
for youre health it doesnt matter how label youreself.
1.drink whey if you whant i dont think is harmfull at least as much as dairy meat and egs.
2.its even in the sticky about 20% worst bioavability with plant protons. So what i do i just put 20% more plant protons into my shake thats all.
Cut milk . dairy, eggs and you will feel the plant power.
>>36067582
>It's not an inherent property in meat
What? because you can find it in the food the animals eat?
Nothing is 'inherent' in anything until it is incorporated into it. Animals eat and their food becomes part of their system. We eat the animals and benefit from this. There are no natural unprocessed source that will give you b12, no matter where the vitamin originates from. You need meat to get it into your system unless you want to rely on highly processed supplements.
On another note, how do get enough vitamin D and calcium in a vegan diet without using supplements? From a whole foods perspective, what vegan source can give enough of them to be sustainable?
>>36067525
thats the whey u do it
>>36067604
Then we can similarly get B12 from soil and untreated water and unwashed vegetables that haven't been exposed to arbitrary agricultural protocols. It's either that or from contaminated meat or a supplement. We can get it from plants and we can get it from veggies if we ignore certain aspects of the process. Neither really sound amazing to me so it's just one of those things where a supplement or something like fortified almond milk would be sound better to me.
Spinach and kale for calcium. Vitamin D: go outside or supplement it. I don't really know what problem you have with supplements. For products with a naturally high source of it, there are natural drawbacks. Why is it inferior to get what we need from a specific food through a supplement without any of its cholesterol, hormones, pus, etc.?
>>36067686
>contaminated meat
>contaminated
wat..
Your meat contain b12 too. Are you contaminated?
>if we ignore certain aspects of the process
Isn't this the main problem of food production today?
There are no way to get enough b12 from unwashed veggies, the amounts are miniscule. Untreated water is a joke and contains even less and that's if you're lucky.
>it's just one of those things where a supplement or something like fortified almond milk would be sound better to me.
>Just
So we can confirm that no vegan can live on a whole foods diet then.
>Spinach and kale for calcium
The insane amounts you need of these to get enough calcium makes it an impossibily to rely on them, not to mention the damage the oxalic acid will do at that point.
>Vitamin D: go outside or supplement it
Practically impossible to get enough vit D from sunlight, so no. And supplementing it blows your whole foods argument
>For products with a naturally high source of it, there are natural drawbacks
Such as what exactly?
>Why is it inferior to get what we need from a specific food through a supplement
We are talking whole foods, first of all.
Second, your diet is unsustainable without an enourmous corporate food industry. How does that feel?
>without any of its cholesterol, hormones, pus, etc.?
This is why I pity vegans. You have no concept of reality. The problem is not the products themselves but the industry behind them destroying the quality. The problem is not the cow but the milk and meat industry such as the problem with corn is not the corn itself but the insane industry that can create a 'burger bun' which is 40% high fructose corn syrup.
>>36067751
Op here.
Yes you are right we (plant eaters i dont like vegan word) need to suplement b12.(40% amfags have b12 deficiency on SAD diet) yes
we need to suplement D vit in the winter hope you do it also (no matter what diet yo choose ) and yes we have to look carefully on things like calcium zinc etc. The fact that this is a plant based diet it doesnt make it some magical super dont worry about anything diet ( just eat plants).
But we dont have to worry about for example phosorus , fiber ,cholesterol.
If u whant to eat animal product thats cool.
i just whant you to know that less of it the better for you the more plant you eat the better youre health is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se9eyupMfZg
>>36067893
Lol. My whole point is that from a whole foods perspective it is very unpractical to cut out entire food groups. It is impossible to achieve a full whole foods diet that is vegan and sustainable for the body. It needs to be supplemented.
I eat animal products to get the nutrients that you supplement. To choose your approach and add supplements is still better than the typical diet, so no hate. You are aware of the weaknesses of your diet, just as i am aware of the ones in mine. This is a good thing.
>If u whant to eat animal product thats cool.
>i just whant you to know that less of it the better for you the more plant you eat the better youre health is.
This isn't true. It depends on the plants and depends in the meat. Eating tons of clean (non contaminated) fatty fish has shown nothing but benefits, and many plants will harm you in large amounts. The best alternative is to do research on what you eat and make decisions based on that rather than generalise on entire food groups.
>>36067986
this is lovely anon i never thought i could have respectfull dialog with a meat eater on 4chan lol.
again you are right i just simplified this to much for you i didnt thought/ suspected high awerness about diet from 4chan/fit browsing annon.
plant leaf or fruit can easily kill you if eat the wrong one (for example).And small fatty fish from clean enviroment ( hard to find nowadays) can even give you health benefits. True. But that things dont make western people sick and die .You know what is it. Its the highly processed animal products and fast food.And moderation is not working in that case. I used to be meat eater ,than pescetarian than lakto- ovo, than plant based I encourage anybody to try it. Its realy amazing specialy for older people.Im not here to argue im here to help( like this kid asking what to buy in a market ) and spread the message.
U are smart u dont need me .
Sorry for my language - not native.
What about literally eating shit ?
Some plant eating animals get their B12 that way (guinea pigs for exemple).
Obviously eating your own shit would probably kill you but I've been wondering for some time if eating the shit of other (specific) animals would be a viable solution.
I guess it could be considered a whole food, too.
Just sage and report the thread.
>>36068571
yup that works too
but its processed food you know
>>36069019
Yeah, but if you go that way, basically everything is processed food.
Aside from minerals that have never been eaten before.
>>36069084
well i thought you get the joke nvm.
stil raw fruits and veggies are practicaly 0 processed.(sun water minerals and bacteria from soil -- bam food)(organic)
coocked plants very little compared to what you can get in the market or from animal (who ate the plant and processed energy into his flesh)
>>36069167
I wasn't sure if you were joking or not.
You forgot the plant that processes said sun, water, minerals and bacteria to produce the fruits and veggies.
But yeah, I get your point, it's like, one layer under animals.
This reminds me of a friend I had, his theory was that minerals existed to "serve" the plants, plants to "serve" animals, animals to "serve" humans and humans to "serve" God.
>>36069167
Your nutrient deficiencies must be affecting your higher thought abilities.
>>36069245
...ah in that sense yeah u right everything is processed in every measurable time from quantum particals to galaxies by energy, gravity etc.
The idea of eating plants are better for humans is that u can skip the animal part and get cleaner energy from sun. Less toxic waste products and much easier digestion (human body uses aprox. 50% energy just to digest) leaving rest of it(energy) to live repair heal etc.
but this is just philosophy.
All we know is that people esting mostly plants or only plants live longer and healthier.
>>36067986
Not OP but I'm pretty much a whole food plant fag that hates being labeled a vegan myself.
There are only two nutrients that are lacking on a plant based diet, and both of those have non animal based sources.
Vitamin B12 has been found in significant quantities in fresh water that hasn't been processed by modern sanitization practices, and also in some fermented foods.
Vitamin D you can get from being in the sun.
Both of the two above conditions are easily met in the environment in which we evolved originally, which was central Africa.
We didn't evolve dependent on animals as a source of these essential nutrients. Our digestive tract and biochemistry is fundamentally that of a herbivore. The ability to consume animals was useful as an additional source of nutrients, which is a big deal when food availability is unreliable, but this was largely only made possible by fire, but cooking also greatly benefits plant based foods. Animal based foods was mostly only significantly useful to allow us to survive in different environments as we migrated out of Africa where the latitude didn't allow for enough vitamin D production from the sun, though we probably still got B12 regardless.
Animals never really were the primary sources of these nutrients, and given all the negative health effects of animal based foods, this is why I supplement B12, and partially D(I try to get sun every day but lattitude and time). It is our modern environment and lifestyle we live in that is depriving us of these nutrients, not the lack of eating animals in our diet. Everything else can easily be obtained in significant quantities from plant based sources.
The argument that animals are historically the only natural source of essential nutrients in dietarily significant quantities is a false one. There are no such nutrients.
>>36069650
>Vitamin B12 has been found in significant quantities in fresh water that hasn't been processed by modern sanitization practices
Enjoy that cholera, dysentery, brain eating amoeba, heavy metal poisoning, etc. But at least you're getting your B12, right?
The obvious vegan samefag from this factually incorrect comment is downright embarrassing. You shouldn't have slept through high school biology.
>>36069650
>We didn't evolve dependent on animals as a source of these essential nutrients.
Yes we did. Until the last few millennia there was not a human on earth who could live healthily on plants alone. And even until the last few centuries this was out of reach for most.
>Our digestive tract and biochemistry is fundamentally that of a herbivore.
If our metabolism was that of a herbivore, we wouldn't have the enormous capacity to digest meat that we do.
>The ability to consume animals was useful as an additional source of nutrients, which is a big deal when food availability is unreliable, but this was largely only made possible by fire
No, it wasn't. People can and do eat meat raw. We cook it to reduce the odds of infection due to bacterial contamination, something which other meat eating animals also suffer from and in some cases have counter measures for. Also because it tastes better.
>Animal based foods was mostly only significantly useful to allow us to survive in different environments as we migrated out of Africa where the latitude didn't allow for enough vitamin D production from the sun, though we probably still got B12 regardless.
Yeah, because pre-global agricultural central Africans totally were up to their eyes in different kinds of staple grains and beans and shit to allow them to get a proper amino acid distribution and micronutrients.
Oh wait, no they didn't, even today they're reliant on bugs and bushmeat.
>Animals never really were the primary sources of these nutrients, and given all the negative health effects of animal based foods,
There are no negative health effects of animal based foods, only obesity, which is enabled by animal based foods because they are SO SUPERIOR FOR DELIVERING NUTRITION.
Most people eat more than they should given their level of activity, and most people need more vegetables in their lives, mostly for the fiber (soluble and insoluble), but humans have eaten meat since before they were humans.
>>36069882
>Enjoy that cholera, dysentery, brain eating amoeba, heavy metal poisoning, etc. But at least you're getting your B12, right?
I knew this was coming. Also your argument doesn't invalidate my point. Also it is stupid.
Sanitized water is a fairly recent invention in human history, the timeframe I'm talking about it wasn't an option at all. Either you drank potentially contaminated water, or you died of thirst long before any pathogen could hope to work it's magic.
The first form of sanitization was boiling water, and while that kills of most pathogens and other microbes, still leaves B12 intact.
It is only recently, in the order of about two hundred years or so, that modern industrial scale chemical sanitization started taking place, which removes the B12 producing bacteria.
Fact is B12 was sourced from water, and while modern sanitized water lacks these pathogens, it also lacks B12.
This is why I take B12 supplements and drink sanitized water, best of both worlds, isn't technology amazing?
>The obvious vegan samefag from this factually incorrect comment is downright embarrassing.
Nice try dumbass.
>You shouldn't have slept through high school biology.
I could only get away with sleeping in maths. Still passed both though.
>>36069997
>Until the last few millennia there was not a human on earth who could live healthily on plants alone.
According to some estimates historically about 5% of the human diet came from animal based foods. This is a very small number, equal to about one meal a week. This is completely insufficient as a critical source of nutrients for any of the nutrients you would typically find in animals.
>If our metabolism was that of a herbivore, we wouldn't have the enormous capacity to digest meat that we do.
Cooking meat makes it more digestible, our guts don't actually do the heavy lifting like in the case of obligate carnivores.
>People can and do eat meat raw.
Yes, but cooked meat, like sanitized water, is much safer. People eating raw meat are consistently carriers of parasites because unlike carnivores we don't have the stomach ph to neutralize these pathogens.
>Yeah, because pre-global agricultural central Africans totally were up to their eyes in different kinds of staple grains and beans and shit to allow them to get a proper amino acid distribution and micronutrients.
Technically before the agricultural revolution we ate a lot more leaves and fruits, but we still managed to gather wild variants of grains, root vegetables and legumes, and other nuts and seeds, which we later domesticated. Also, we actually don't need the incredible amounts of proteins that most people think we do, only about 10% of our diet needs to be proteins, and getting a complete profile is very easy if you eat more than two different kinds of things.
>There are no negative health effects of animal based foods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ
I see no reason to eat animal based foods. You can get all the nutrients you need from healthier sources.
>>36070052
I'm not that anon, but not all b12 analogues are equal. There is not data to suggest that the b12 found in water can keep MMA levels within normal range; and very limited data to suggest uncleaned organic veg have the ability to lower MMA levels, which again would have been dependent on the b12 analogue found in the soil.
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/mol
http://veganhealth.org/b12/plant#orgpro
It's unfounded to suggest at one point in time we relied upon either as a source of b12.
FYI, I'm vegan; although my diet is far from plant based. Drop the whole "natural diet" shite and just promote is as is, a way to cause the least amount of harm possible.
>>36070052
>I knew somebody would point out the gaping holes in my logic
If you knew your argument is shit then there's no point in fielding it. Your "muh shitty appeal to nature" argument is terrible and you know it. Not only that, but many bodies of water don't have B12 in anywhere sufficient quantities for what we need. This is on the level of "but your shit has B12" argument.
>still pretending you're not a vegan
Sorry breh, you guys are obvious online.
>>36070196
>According to some estimates historically about 5% of the human diet came from animal based foods.
By whom?
>This is a very small number, equal to about one meal a week. This is completely insufficient as a critical source of nutrients for any of the nutrients you would typically find in animals.
Alone, yes, but as supplement to a primitive plant centric diet it worked well.
>Cooking meat makes it more digestible, our guts don't actually do the heavy lifting like in the case of obligate carnivores.
Yes they do. I don't know where you got this idea that our bodies are incapable of digesting raw meat, but we can, easily.
>Yes, but cooked meat, like sanitized water, is much safer.
Of course, but this doesn't mean humans aren't natural meat eaters. The same problems exist for all animals that eat meat.
>Technically before the agricultural revolution we ate a lot more leaves and fruits, but we still managed to gather wild variants of grains, root vegetables and legumes, and other nuts and seeds, which we later domesticated.
The most common explanations for the slow rate of development in africa is the complete lack of stable domesticatable food sources, both plant and animal.
>and getting a complete profile is very easy if you eat more than two different kinds of things.
Which, for pre-agricultural people, IE, the vast majority of all of human history, is often next to impossible.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ
All studies fail because of the confounding factor that people who make one choice which they perceive as healthier are going to make other choices which they also perceive as healthier, such as not smoking, exercising, etc. And that people who vegans are going to have less body fat simply because it's quite difficult to get fat without the nutrient dense animal products. In many cases this is probably deliberate. Everyone has a book to sell.
>>36070546
Also
>People eating raw meat are consistently carriers of parasites because unlike carnivores we don't have the stomach ph to neutralize these pathogens.
I don't know where you read this but it's just fucking incorrect. Human stomach acid is comparable even with obligate carnivores in terms of acidity. Carnivores, especially scavengers, get sick from contaminated food too, they just fucking die.
>>36067324
Chickpeas sooo goooooddd
Why not just drink beer for the b12?
>>36067562
>>36067604
meat is fortified with b12
pic related
>>36070900
Those sneaky farmers, feeding all wildlife while we're not looking. No wonder the world is going to shit.
>>36067751
You are ignoring facts
you have had it explained that you can get b12 from nature, but most of us like our veggies, soil and water to be extra clean so il just have some Marmite or soy milk. Also the levels of b12 in untreated water is fine.
Literally can get your calcium from green veggies not a problem
You can get enough vit D from sun, you must be a neckbeard or if not then take 1 pill, its not a big deal.
Loads of peoples diets would be unsustainable without a corporate food insutry, what is your point?
Stop appealing to nature, its pathetic. We are not cavemen anymore, that ended thousands of years ago. Join us in 2016 please.
>>36070830
>Why not smoke to get oxygen?
How about just taking a b12 supplement
>>36070511
>using an argument that does not matter because we all live in western developed countries and have better things to do that go to the woods to feel more "natural"
Il just have some marmite on toast
>>36072960
>Why not used fortified processed foods or supplements?
You just proved my point.
No vegan diet can be completely whole food. Supplements are needed. Therefore not completely whole foods.
>Literally can get your calcium from green veggies not a problem
Present proof of this, if you please.
>You can get enough vit D from sun
Not in Northern areas of America and Northern Europe during winter time.
>>36073101
Yeah but you CAN if you were so inclined.
>>36073155
Can what?
>>36073101
Not the guy you're talking to, but Harvard recommends people get their calcium from greens since they believe dairy is unhealthy
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/calcium-and-milk/
On the same page, they recommend taking a vitamin D supplement to get atleast 1,000 IU a day if you don't get good sun exposure. That's echoed by the Vitamin D Council, who say food is not a suitable source of vitamin D, and supplementation or adequate sun exposure are the only valid options
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/how-do-i-get-the-vitamin-d-my-body-needs/
>The two main ways to get vitamin D are by exposing your bare skin to sunlight and by taking vitamin D supplements. You can’t get the right amount of vitamin D your body needs from food.
Basically if you don't live in the tropics, you're not living a normal, natural human life. You can see how the appeal to nature way of thinking doesn't make for good arugments.
You can also say similar things about B12, which most people are recommended to supplement since meat isn't a very bioavailable form of B12.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm
> the researchers found no association between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. “It’s not because people aren’t eating enough meat,” Tucker said. “The vitamin isn’t getting absorbed.”
>The researchers also expected to find some connection between dietary intake and plasma levels, even though other studies found no association. And they did find a connection. Supplement use dropped the percentage of volunteers in the danger zone--plasma B12 below 185 pmol/L--from 20 percent to 8.
>>36073546
>http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm
Has there been any RCTs showing b12 in meat has no bioavailabilty?
>>36073546
>That's echoed by the Vitamin D Council, who say food is not a suitable source of vitamin D
This is because people don't eat enough fish among other things
>You can also say similar things about B12, which most people are recommended to supplement since meat isn't a very bioavailable form of B12.
Funny how they say this, as b12 deficiency is very very rare and was rare also before b-supplements came on the marked. This is a condition that is recorded in elderly and severely malnourished people. What you actually mean is it is difficult to get optimal levels of b12 from any natural source, as in it can get a lot better from taking supplements but it won't kill you or damage you not to take it. At worst you just won't have the energy you would have had if you'd taken supplements.
>>36073702
If that were true, then we would all suffer b12 deficiency, which we don't
>>36072960
>you have had it explained that you can get b12 from nature, but most of us like our veggies, soil and water to be extra clean so il just have some Marmite or soy milk. Also the levels of b12 in untreated water is fine.
No there isn't any data suggesting that b12 analogues found in water and soil have sufficient activity or lower MMA levels.
There is a reason why it's advised to have your MMA levels check rather than you B12 status, if you eat nothing but inactive B12 analogues your B12 status will come back perfect but your MMA levels (the biomarker which shows whether your source B12 is doing it's job) will be off the charts.
See here: >>36070508
>>36072978
Because smoking diesnt give you oxygen dummy.
Bear is also healthy in moderation.
Try again dumbo.
