1) Is Mark Rippetoe on steroids?
2) Is Mark Rippetoe as knowledgable as he claims?
3) Is Mark Rippetoe a happy man?
>>35471129
he's a foot fetishist, so he's probably quite sad inside
>>35471129
when is mark rippetoe going to cut?
>>35471129
Probably not, probably not, probably
>>35471129
That photo of him deadlifting from his competition days had the look of someone that uses drugs, very lean and really big.
I would say he did use steroids, his engorged gut could be a side effect of years of use.
>>35471313
You're probably thinking about roger estep. This is the real Rip and he definitely looks natty.
And that's just a regular old man gut, m8.
He's a cute.
Rippetoe is Life
>>35471129
>Is riptits ever even want to do look more like?
yes
>>35471129
1) No.
2) yes, but his advice is opinionated, howeve father does not mean his advice is incorrect by any means. There are multiple ways to do the job and he offers one of the most efficient ways to do the job.
3) he thinks he lives in a world of crazy people and pyjama men
And he does.
>>35471129
he admitted to using in his powerlifting years
no, he's an utter failure as a coach and was below average as a lifter. he's pretty good at monetizing common knowledge to clueless cucks
no, he's a lonely, emotionally and physically broken man. a fitting punishment for turning hundreds of thousands of innocent young men into obese betas with no upper body development
>>35471129
Rip quit in 1988 because the other guys in his division (like Steve Goggins) were juicing and totaling 600lbs more than him . He decided to coach instead of juicing.
>>35473075
>no, he's an utter failure as a coach and was below average as a lifter. he's pretty good at monetizing common knowledge to clueless cucks
Shit straw man. It's not common knowledge if not most people know it.
He is a failure of a coach but his novice program is still the best out there available on the Internet.
Better programs come from paid coaches.
>>35471129
Rip is a very good coach for novices.
However, Rip makes the mistake of treating everyone the same, having everyone squat the same etc.
This is fine for novices, and is really the only way you can teach novices. However, any advanced(and I mean advanced, don't be fucking with your form while youre an intermediate) lifter can tell you that the next step and the hardest step, is not just knowing how to squat, but how to squat optimally for you. That part is what really high level coaches are really good at, looking at someone and saying you need to squat in this style, use these particular cues, etc.
Rip doesn't do that and that's OK.
>>35473099
the sticky does just as well a job at introducing a novice to basic barbell training as ss, in fewer words. its not astrophysics. his novice program is a near-direct ripoff of bill starr's the strongest shall survive which you can freely download on the internet. and there are plenty of programs that are better than ss, like candito's, powerliftingtowin's, ws4sb all free of charge.
>>35471388
This
Mark was a sick kunt in his prime
>>35471388
how much is that? 7plaet?
i think he's a bit overboard with his "adult males > 200lbs" thing. most people who do SS correctly look pretty shit.
lascek used to be something like his right hand but he understood how dogmatic rippetoe is and now preaches the same principles but tells you to eat smart instead of just "eat big to get big" and gives out routines that dont have you squatting 3x a week and have some more upper body work.
you can see the same thing happening with feigenbaum, his current right hand. he's already drifting away from powerlifting to olympic lifting and doesn't shut off things like arm training or "i want to look good".
that being said, i think rippetoe is "correct" in just about everything he can be either correct or wrong in. his opinion on good looks is just skewed.
>>35473153
You can freely download starting strength 3rd edition off the internet you dip
Candios is shit
Powerlifting to win isn't a general strength program, and it's shit for powerlifting too
>>35471129
i would not take advice from anyone who looks that much like shit. lead by example much? its like a fat parent trying to get their fat kid to lose weight, really?
>>35473199
You squat 3x a week because it's a sports program for ATHLETES, not Baby's first bodybuilding program.
>>35471388
It's a bit like Isley with glasses
>>35473171
That's not Mark Rippetoe that's Roger Goodell
>>35473200
so? i literally proved you wrong about unavailability of superior programs free of charge. and they are superior - more flexible, adjustable, less dogmatic. ptw is more geared towards powerlifting but works just as well as a general routine because any sane beginner routine will be centered around pl competiton lifts. and those were designed by people infinitely more successful than mark
>>35473222
not really, rippetoe claims its also the best starting point for bodybuilders
>>35473181
All the plates
The guy is literally an alcoholic snake oil salesman who sells bullshit to dyel noob shits who wouldn't know any better.
>>35473309
I don't get why people either worship Rippetoe or believe that he is full of shit.
Rippetoe is right about many things, though some of what he advocates sound suspicious to me.
First of all, it is his views on ab training. Most of the core stabilization while doing deadlifts or back squats are done by spinal erectors and not abs. Overhead press and power cleans do work your abs but I don't think the frequency they are done in is enough to properly strengthen your abs.
Second is his obsession with squats. Yes, they are a very important exercise but not really "more" important than others. I don't get why he tells you to do such an exhausting exercise the first. I also think that high-bar squats are better in the long term while low-bar squats are more appropriate for beginners, while Rippetoe thinks that low-bar is just superior to high-bar.
Second is the power clean. Even though it helps with deadlifts and gives you swole traps if done properly, it is too technical and too form-dependent for a beginner.
Finally, it is the low volume he has on his program. I think it is true that beginners don't benefit well from high-volume programs, but after you are in the "advanced novice" phase I think you should increase the volume a little. Rippetoe however tells you to do 3x5 until you stall and maybe increase the volume only then.
Now let's talk about what Rippetoe is right about.
First of all, squatting 3 times a week is legit. SS is a strenght program and was never designed to make you aesthetic. Your leg muscles are big, thus, a beginner can make steady linear gains with squats even if you do them every day you work out.
I also don't get the "SS will give you small arms" thing. You do chin-ups at least once a week and at most twice. They are great for your biceps. And no one is really preventing you from doing some curls on the weeks you do them once. You work your triceps every day, that is enough volume for a beginner.
>>35473260
>so? i literally proved you wrong about unavailability of superior programs free of charge. and they are superior - more flexible, adjustable, less dogmatic
You literally did not.
All those other programs have slower progression, they don't train explosiveness and one is powerlifting specific, DEFINITELY not superior because a novice lifter usually doesn't know what they want to specialise in.
Your opinion on programming is worthless to just about everyone.
>>35473517
Autism - the post.
>>35473517
he ripped his program off bill starr's book which was targetted at high school football athletes, hence the bare-bones design and presence of powerclean.
>>35473573
ptw has flexible progression rate based on how many reps you hit, candito's allows you ro choose whether to add 5 or 10 lbs on the next workout allowing both to have the same or higher progression rate than ss.
>novice lifter usually doesn't know what they want to specialise in.
what an idiotic statement, of course a novice knows why he starts going to the gym, 99% of which is usually the desire to look better naked for which ss is a subpar choice at best
>>35471388
Still a nice and strong-looking physique.
>>35473678
>what an idiotic statement, of course a novice knows why he starts going to the gym, 99% of which is usually the desire to look better
A dogmatic statement and a statistic pulled right out of your ass.
A novice lifter isn't suppose to specialise, intermediate lifters can chose to specialise.
Did you know what career you wanted as a child? Did it stick until you were an adult and did you follow the career?
It's the same principal, usually people start lifting to look good and realise quickly they wish to get good and compete.
SS is not a bodybuilding program, it's a strength program for explosiveness and power, these are valuable skills if you compete in sport, arguably even bodybuilding seeing as being explosive allows you to lift more and uses more muscle fibres.
But it's not a bodybuilding program and if you're dumb enough to think that or expect to look like Arnold at the end of it than you're a fucking retard.
>ptw has flexible progression rate based on how many reps you hit, candito's allows you ro choose whether to add 5 or 10 lbs on the next workout allowing both to have the same or higher progression rate than ss.
You can add 50lbs on SS if your body allows it, there's no set in stone weight increments on SS, it's your choice.
You won't be adding 10lbs a session long on any of these programs, so that's a stupid fucking statement.
Yes PTW has a form of auto regulation, buts it's definitely not needed in a novice stage and only introduced to explain the concept for future training.
>>35473517
Good post, however, there's evidence proving rep range has little effect in difference in hypertrophy in new trainees, so it's actually just as good as any other program in that regard, but better because strength gains are greater due to motor pattern adaptation.
>>35473517
>Most of the core stabilization while doing deadlifts or back squats are done by spinal erectors and not abs
abs, even the rectus abdominis, increase the intra-abdominal pressure in those lifts and thats a pretty big deal. back flexion is not its only function. i fail to see how power cleans would work your abs but deadlifts wouldnt.
squats aren't really that exhausting unless you squat over 3 plates for reps and then you switch to intermediate programming. how would highbar be better in long term?
rippetoe teaches the power clean with the vertical bar path style. its really not that difficult, the "catapult" version or any other style olympic lifters teach is more difficult. but i think its stupid that rippetoe thinks his vertical bar path would be better for olympic competitors too.
advanced novice works for the small moment when volume is not an issue but recovery issue. you probably need coaching to decide if it fits you or if you should switch to TM right away.
and i dont like the "SS is a strength program, not bb program" argument because rip also says that its optimal for novice BBers
>>35473873
>and i dont like the "SS is a strength program, not bb program" argument because rip also says that its optimal for novice BBers
Because novice lifters DO NOT need specialisation. That's the only reason. It's not a program that's designed for just bodybuilding, only strengthening a novice lifter, which is important for bodybuilding.
You can't look strong without being the least bit strong.
This thread
>>35473987
You're a fucking mentally ill degenerate that dresses like the opposite gender
Society doesn't need more faggots, go hang yourself.
>>35473678
>5 to 10 lbs per week
>higher progression than SS
Nice to see that you have no clue what you're talking about.
>>35473950
its not like you cant get strong going a PPL or something like that, and why exactly would strength be important for bodybuilding? better recruitment does not apply since bb work hardly reaches full recruitment anyway. just go look at some reddit before after threads, 95% of the people who did PPL or even some 5-day split look way better than people on SS style training
im not talking about specialization although id like some more arms on SS.
>>35473099
>He's a failure of a coach
>He wrote the best beginner program out there.
So he's a pretty good coach then.
>>35474462
Bodybuilding is specialisation, hence why I brought it up. Specialisation for a novice lifter is unwise unless accompanied by a successful coach.
Bodybuilding is based off volume, the higher the volume the bigger you get.
Volume = setsXrepsXweight
Weight won't increase unless you get stronger.
Weight is the biggest factor in volume
Hence why weight is important for bodybuilding.
Of course people on high volume programs look better than people on low volume NOVICE strength programs, it's not rocket science.
Novice Strength programs aren't suppose to last longer than anywhere between 3 months or 9 months, then you specialise as an intermediate.
The reddit fags just have a low bodyfat percentage and baby legs so they look bigger in comparison. They aren't anywhere near as big as strong body builders and never will be.
>>35474518
Nobody he has coached first hand has become a record breaking athlete.
His novice program has not made anyone into a record braking athlete, their specialised programming did.
>>35473209
Well, guess I'll listen to Greg Plitt. Except for the running on railroad tracks with trains going by and trying to beat them.
>>35471129
>1) Is Mark Rippetoe on steroids?
Obviously
>2) Is Mark Rippetoe as knowledgable as he claims?
He knows his own way of lifting and was called on his lie about being an olympic coach by an actual olympic lifter. Oh and his book was ghost written for the most part.
Take of that what you will.
>3) Is Mark Rippetoe a happy man?
I don't know. Probably. He gets all of that crossfit money and the young dumb pussy(or boipussy, don't know how he rolls but better safe then sorre)he wants.
>>35474698
>Hence why weight is important for bodybuilding.
not important enough for strength oriented training to be better for bbing.
its like the average redditor on PPL would squat 5x100kg after three months. ss guy would squat maybe 5x115kg in the same time. the difference is just not significant enough.
>then you specialise as an intermediate.
stupid not to start specializing immediately. a successful coach for starting bbing? lol no
>The reddit fags just have a low bodyfat percentage and baby legs so they look bigger in comparison
no, really. they are actually bigger too. baby legs, maybe compared to the SS t-rexes but i'd way rather be like that.
the biggest bodybuilders are not all super strong and again you're making a straw man about PPL guys being weak forever. you will get strong enough on most BB programs for the strength difference to not matter.
please note that I did SS myself, getting a bit past 1/2/3/4 for the SS reps at 94kg bw. i like training that way and prioritize strength over other things but the reddit guys look way better and its not just cause of bodyfat, they are actually bigger.
>>35474802
>5x115kg in the same time. the difference is just not significant enough.
These are made up "facts" just to support your post.
Even if that was the case, the 115 squatters legs would be bigger hence why he's a better bodybuilder.
>stupid not to start specializing immediately. a successful coach for starting bbing? lol no
Read practical programming, specialisation isn't needed for a novice and not all lifters know what they want to specialise in.
They won't also build a necessary strength base.
Power lifters don't overhead press often or at all, if you don't overhead press from the beginning because you're a "specialist" then you're going to run into problems down the line.
Not only that but SPECIALISATION ISNT NEEDED. Rank novice lifters improve their performance in all sports on SS because of lift diversity.
>no, really. they are actually bigger too. baby legs, maybe compared to the SS t-rexes but i'd way rather be like that.
Worthless arguing something so subjective, I've seen those stupid reddit posts, they are all hungry dyels. If you want to be like a hungry skeleton then so be it.
>the biggest bodybuilders are not all super strong and again you're making a straw man about PPL guys being weak forever. you will get strong enough on most BB programs for the strength difference to not matter.
No straw man. Fact.
The biggest body builders are strong you retard, kali muscle deadlifts like 800lbs, just as a random example off the top of my head.
>please note that I did SS myself, getting a bit past 1/2/3/4 for the SS reps at 94kg bw. i like training that way and prioritize strength over other things but the reddit guys look way better and its not just cause of bodyfat, they are actually bigger.
They are small, and even then, you're small because you have been doing a low volume program and didn't do your 3x15 chin-ups/pull-ups after every session of SS liked recommended in the book, nor did you do your accessories like advocated in the book.
>pic
>>35474698
>Nobody he has coached first hand has become a record breaking athlete.
>His novice program has not made anyone into a record braking athlete, their specialised programming did.
What, that's your criteria for success? Then pretty much every coach out there who hasn't produced someone who broke a record is a bad coach. Must explain the disappointment your dad feels every Christmas when you visit.
>>35474883
>>35474802
I forgot to mention, you won't ever get strong off a random PPL routine from bodybuilding.com
Actual strength programs are far mor complicated and call for special techniques such as periodisation, fatigue management e.t.c
Something you won't see in those stupid split ROUTINES.
You can't get strong off linear progression forever, actual athletes follow complex programs.
>>35474909
A coach is like a program, they are as good as the results of the athlete.
None of rippetoes athletes he's trained have gone far.
His program is good for novice lifters, but do f take you far.
>>35474956
Dont*
>>35474956
>>35474883
>These are made up "facts" just to support your post.
no, ive seen those weights happen a million times and the bb guy having better legs.
>the 115 squatters legs would be bigger
umm, why would they? the ss guy gets stronger because of neurological adaptations, not just muscle size
>Read practical programming, specialisation isn't needed for a novice
ive read it ages ago, rippetoe is blind in his strength rules all shit. just because he says so doesnt mean its true. were not talking about someone who doesnt know what he wants to do, were talking about someone who wants to get big
>They won't also build a necessary strength base.
why would they need a "strength base"?
>f you don't overhead press from the beginning because you're a "specialist" then you're going to run into problems down the line.
nothing to do with what were talking about, apples and oranges
>Rank novice lifters improve their performance in all sports on SS because of lift diversity.
were not talking about performance, are we?
> they are all hungry dyels
lol no. keep being deluded like rippetoe. zach, literal perfection.
>The biggest body builders are strong you retard, kali muscle deadlifts like 800lbs, just as a random example off the top of my head.
a random example is not a universal truth. kai greene does not give a fuck about strength
inb4 roids
indeed, i am small cause i did a low volume program, thats what ive been saying. i did do the chins (which are not done after every session you retard) and the accessories listed in the book like halting DLs or front squats or dips are not meant to be added in to the program, although i did do dips. the accessories are there because the book is about basic barbell training, not just the novice program.
>ou won't ever get strong off a random PPL routine from bodybuilding.com
youll get strong enough, its not like people like doing stuff like that will just stall at 1/2/3/4 forever. it just doesnt happen.
>>35475038
>no, ive seen those weights happen a million times and the bb guy having better legs.
>a million times
>million times
Am I speaking to a child?
>umm, why would they? the ss guy gets stronger because of neurological adaptations, not just muscle size
Increasing volume makes the muscle bigger, SS has you adding weight every session thus increasing volume. The volume for 115kg is far greater than on 100kg.
A lifter who can only do 100kg for 5 max has smaller legs than a lifter who can do 115 for 5 max.
>ive read it ages ago, rippetoe is blind in his strength rules all shit. just because he says so doesnt mean its true. were not talking about someone who doesnt know what he wants to do, were talking about someone who wants to get big
No we're not, we are talking about all novice lifters, stop trying to change the subject to suit your argument.
Again, am I speaking to a child?
>why would they need a "strength base"?
Oh. I am speaking to a child.
You need a strength base for increased volume for bodybuilding as discussed here >>35474698
>nothing to do with what were talking about, apples and oranges
It's exactly what we are talking about, specialisation IS JUST THAT.
>were not talking about performance, are we?
Yes we are, getting bigger in bodybuilder is improving performance, getting stronger for sports is improving preformance.
>lol no. keep being deluded like rippetoe. zach, literal perfection.
Google kirill sareychev or look at the picture I attached. He is a power lifter, he trains for strength.
He is much bigger than your le reddit bodybuilders.
>a random example is not a universal truth. kai greene does not give a fuck about strength
None of them give a fuck about strength, but they are still strong because of progressive over load and increased volume which in turns makes them big.
PART 1 of 2
>>35475038
>indeed, i am small cause i did a low volume program, thats what ive been saying. i did do the chins (which are not done after every session you retard)
Yes they are. Read practical programming on the novice programming - starting strength model section.
It's a recommendation to increase vertical pull strength.
>and the accessories listed in the book like halting DLs or front squats or dips are not meant to be added in to the program, although i did do dips. the accessories are there because the book is about basic barbell training, not just the novice program.
You are free to add whatever you wish, those accessories are there to add to the program, it's even mentioned to include accessories such as rows and curls and all discussed in starting strength in the practical programming book.
>youll get strong enough, its not like people like doing stuff like that will just stall at 1/2/3/4 forever. it just doesnt happe
Without a good program you will be stalling around those novice weights you listed. It happens all the time.
I come to the gym and have seen people bench between 100-140kg for years and never get any stronger.
>>35475038
I'm done arguing with such a literal child because I need to go to bed.
Take a look at pic related, it's small collection of my book library, I'd reccomend you actually read some of those books.
>>35475328
Ah, so that's you. The same "I've read all these books hurr" shitposter.
You are fucking cancer. Always posting retarded shit and pasting a screenshot of the books you have downloaded and never read.
>>35475385
Ahahahahah nice rebuttal faggot
You're a novice lifter and think you're hot shit
Ahahahahahahah
>>35473052
Hi Mark!
>>35475219
>Increasing volume makes the muscle bigger, SS has you adding weight every session thus increasing volume. The volume for 115kg is far greater than on 100kg.
yeah, or you can do twice the reps with half the weight. but you get like 80% of the weight on a PPL or similar. the volume is greater in that sense.
>No we're not, we are talking about all novice lifters, stop trying to change the subject to suit your argument.
no, i originally talked about BBers. you changed it to suit your argument.
>You need a strength base for increased volume for bodybuilding as discussed here
or... you can do more reps for increased volume.
>Google kirill sareychev or look at the picture I attached. He is a power lifter, he trains for strength.
didnt do SS
he trained for 10 years longer than the reddit guys
am i speaking to a child?
>Yes they are. Read practical programming on the novice programming - starting strength model section.
or, read the actual book which focuses on the program more than PP. or read the SS forums or the ss wiki (unofficial but still)
>You are free to add whatever you wish, those accessories are there to add to the program
no they are not, it never says that in the book and if you read some SS forums youd understand this.
>Without a good program you will be stalling around those novice weights you listed. It happens all the time.
i never said you dont need a good program, im just saying not everything needs to be TM
>>35475577
>i never said you dont need a good program, im just saying not everything needs to be TM
TM isn't the only intermediate strength program.
>it never says that in the book
Here are some quotes from pratical programming by mark rippetoe on the starting strength model section
>Any other assistance exercises should be done after the basic program exercises, and then for
no more that three sets.
>Once the basic exercises have been mastered, accessory exercises can be added into training. The most valuable
assistance movements are those that improve any weaknesses in the basic exercises or otherwise benefit their performance.
Basically you're suppose to add accessories, not only what he talks about in starting strength, but any you see fit.
Look back at the picture on >>35474883
These programs are a guideline, not a template.
>or, read the actual book which focuses on the program more than PP
The starting strength model sexrion in PP is about starting strength.
It's the same message from in starting strength, just simplified.
>or... you can do more reps for increased volume.
You'll need to get stronger to be able to do more reps at the same weight, so that won't work.
As well as eventually it becomes endurance training and lactic acid buildup will cause muscle atrophy, which is what you should avoid as a bodybuilder especially,
>no, i originally talked about BBers. you changed it to suit your argument.
Its always been about novice lifters. Even so novice bodybuilder shouldn't specialise but instead do a novice program. All tried and tested novice programs don't specialise because it's inherently retarded.
>yeah, or you can do twice the reps with half the weight. but you get like 80% of the weight on a PPL or similar. the volume is greater in that sense.
It depends. In this situation that wouldn't work.
3x5x115 = 1725 volume in arbitrary units
3x10x50 = 1500
So you'd actually get less volume in the PPL and you'd be smaller. SS frequency is also high.
>>35475796
>Basically you're suppose to add accessories, not only what he talks about in starting strength, but any you see fit.
thats stuff written ages ago, read the fucking forums and see what he says himself
pic related
>Look back at the picture on >>35474883
thats not rippetoe and if you do like he says, YNDTP.
>The starting strength model sexrion in PP is about starting strength.
no fucking shit? its written ages ago before YNDTP became a thing
>You'll need to get stronger to be able to do more reps at the same weight, so that won't work.
the point is, youre gonna get stronger on a split too. not as strong as SS but strong enough for the 10% strength difference to not compensate enough for having half the volume
>As well as eventually it becomes endurance training and lactic acid buildup will cause muscle atrophy
yeah im talking about stuff like 3x10 or even 5x5, not 1x20
>Its always been about novice lifters
no, in my original post i talked about the distinction between training for BB and training for strength. youre changing the argument
>It depends. In this situation that wouldn't work.
so youre saying someone doing SS would lift 3x5x115 and the same guy doing PPL would lift 3x10x50 in the same lift training for as long? LOL. no. actual numbers would be something like 3x5x115 and at least 3x10x80, giving the PPL guy 40% more volume
but thats not everything, see, the PPL guy does maybe 4 other exercises hitting the same muscle group. he's gonna have easily 5-8 times the volume SS has
frequency is smaller admittedly but the weekly tonnage would still be more
>>35475886
>>35475796
>>35475577
>>35475441
>>35475385
>>35475328
>>35475287
>>35475219
>>35475038
Jesus Christ, it's called "Starting Strength", not "do this shit your entire life". Techniques, foundation & commitment to a program time table is what is taught. No one expects anyone with over a year of training to listen to Rip or do this program.
>>35475886
>thats stuff written ages ago, read the fucking forums and see what he says himself
>pic related
I have the 3rd edition of the book, the newest edition, so no it's not.
Your picture also proves absolutely nothing other than chin-ups and pull-ups are part of the program...
>thats not rippetoe and if you do like he says, YNDTP.
That's the point I'm trying to get across, it's a guide lime not a template, think for yourself. Your bad results are a result of your inability to think for yourself and use the information given to you.
Again. I have the 3rd and newest edition of the book so the information is up to date.
>the point is, youre gonna get stronger on a split too. not as strong as SS but strong enough for the 10% strength difference to not compensate enough for having half the volume
Except it won't be a %10 strength difference. It will be far greater. Greater than %50 for definite.
A lot of powerlifting guys squat over 5plates in their intermediate stage.
Typical /fit/ bros hover around 2-3plates.
>yeah im talking about stuff like 3x10 or even 5x5, not 1x20
Even so, if the weight doesn't increase than volume won't increase and you won't get bigger.
>frequency is smaller admittedly but the weekly tonnage would still be more
That's not necessarily true without comparing programs.
>actual numbers would be something like 3x5x115 and at least 3x10x80
I used the weights supplied by yourself. You said the SS lifter had a 115kg 5RM and the broaplitter had a 100kg 5rm, you said he'd achieved more volume from double the reps and half the weight of SS.
I did the math and he didn't.
>but thats not everything, see, the PPL guy does maybe 4 other exercises hitting the same muscle group. he's gonna have easily 5-8 times the volume SS has
What a waste of time. You don't need multiple exercises for 1 muscle group. 1 is enoufh, 2 is pushing it unless you're coincidentally hitting said muscle group to train another muscle. Volume is key to growth, not variantion.
>>35475939
Nobody is arguing against that?
Never fucking reply to me again unless it's to do with the thread topic.
>>35475950
>I have the 3rd edition of the book, the newest edition, so no it's not.
the book is new but the novice section hasnt been updated, unlike in SS 3rd ed
>Your picture also proves absolutely nothing other than chin-ups and pull-ups are part of the program...
the only ancillary exercise... how chins are programmed... am i talking to a child?
>That's the point I'm trying to get across, it's a guide lime not a template, think for yourself
no, its a template. youre arguing for SS but not doing SS, congrats.
>Greater than %50 for definite.
lol, no. DYEL?
>Typical /fit/ bros hover around 2-3plates.
if they train as long as those pl guys, no they dont.
>Even so, if the weight doesn't increase than volume won't increase and you won't get bigger.
the weight increases.
>That's not necessarily true without comparing programs.
not necessarily true, but my example is pretty good and i gave you the info. 4 more exercises per muscle group, 40% more volume per exercise, 2/3 of the frequency adds up to almost 4 times the volume.
>you said he'd achieved more volume from double the reps and half the weight of SS.
that wasn't my example, that was just an example on how you'd get the same volume, point being that the weight isnt everything and certainly not the primary thing dictating volume.
>You don't need multiple exercises for 1 muscle group
in this case the muscle groups in PPL are push, pull and legs. you can easily have 4 upper body pushes and they can be worth it, like bench, ohp, dips, lateral raises or something similar.
>>35476034
>the book is new but the novice section hasnt been updated, unlike in SS 3rd ed
I own the 3rd book so I'm up to date
>the only ancillary exercise... how chins are programmed... am i talking to a child
Ancillary definition:
1. providing necessary support to the primary activities
Which means that's just an example of 1 of the ASSISTANCE lifts you can add to the program, nowhere does it say it's the only assistance.
In SS and PP it says to add other assistance or even accessorise lifts.
>no, its a template. youre arguing for SS but not doing SS, congrats.
It's not a template, you have a free choice of assistance lifts and rep schemes if you do follow the program as written.
If you have some balls you'd add assistance lifts that will benefit you in addition to all of that, mark rippetoe even acknowledges this in PP by saying
>Arms should probably be included in the program - a certain amount of "beach work" will get sneaked in anyway
>lol, no. DYEL?
The strongest bodybuilder I've seen is Kali muscle, who deadlifts 800lbs, not only does he take steroids, but his muscle mass is far greater than all natural power lifters, yet he still gets out lifted by natural power lifters.
The point is you're over estimating strength of these typical bro splitters, ask some random /cbt/ poster his stats for a good ideal of how fudking weak bodybuilder are.
Or use yourself as an example.
>if they train as long as those pl guys, no they dont.
They will never lift the same weights no matter the training time simply because they don't train as efficiently as it's not their sport.
>the weight increases.
So what this infers is that a novice program is needed to get strong so you can increase volume? A novice program gets you strong quick so you spend less time beating around the bush and by the time you start a bodybuilding program you'll lift heavy enough to get big quicker than you would having specialised from the beginning.
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>>35476034
>not necessarily true, but my example is pretty good and i gave you the info. 4 more exercises per muscle group, 40% more volume per exercise, 2/3 of the frequency adds up to almost 4 times the volume.
Even so that's horribly inefficient and just takes up far more time than a novice program would just so at the end of the week you're not as strong as the lifter training strength and you're slightly bigger than him except not really because eventually he'll squat 5pl8 as you struggle to hit 3, and no matter how many sets you do you can't match his weekly volume.
>that wasn't my example, that was just an example on how you'd get the same volume, point being that the weight isnt everything and certainly not the primary thing dictating volume.
That WAS your exact example. Weight is the largest variable in determining volume, therefore it's the most important.
>in this case the muscle groups in PPL are push, pull and legs. you can easily have 4 upper body pushes and they can be worth it, like bench, ohp, dips, lateral raises or something similar.
That's also horribly inefficient as they are all primary lifts and extremely intensive, so whatever lifts you do near the end will suffer greatly and you will always under preform on those lifts due to fatigue accumulation.
>>35476182
>Which means that's just an example of 1 of the ASSISTANCE lifts you can add to the program, nowhere does it say it's the only assistance.
it literally says its the only assistance at that phase, what the hell?
nowhere in SS does it say you should add others. it is said "other accessories must be chosen very carefully". PP is another thing. just because the book is new doesnt mean the info is updated, and its not really needed cause the YNDTP people wont read PP anyway
>It's not a template, you have a free choice of assistance lifts and rep schemes if you do follow the program as written.
m8 really just look up the ss forums...
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q-and-a/7359-assistance-exercise.html
adding curls is the only acceptable thing
>The point is you're over estimating strength of these typical bro splitters, ask some random /cbt/ poster his stats for a good ideal of how fudking weak bodybuilder are.
we can do really nothing but agree to disagree here. ive seen most PPL kind of people get to at least 70% of the strength a typical SSer would have.
>So what this infers is that a novice program is needed to get strong so you can increase volume
yes, but increasing strength by 20% (or even 50%) loses to having twice the tonnage due to reps and more movements.
>you'll lift heavy enough to get big quicker
why would that happen? recruitment does not apply since you hardly reach full recruitment in BBing anyway
>Even so that's horribly inefficient
meh, its not like youre gonna get a perfectly balanced physique just benching, ohping and chinning. youre gonna lack rear delts, lateral delts and lower chest at least. some arms too, perhaps.
>That WAS your exact example
it wasnt my example of an actual routine is what im saying. i said it just to prove that weight is not the largest variable, becuase you can have the same volume with half the weight but half the weight does not happen in reality.
>>35476256
>so whatever lifts you do near the end will suffer greatly and you will always under preform on those lifts due to fatigue accumulation.
thats a bit like saying "why do more than one set? youre gonna be more exhausted in the last sets so youll underperform!".
those lifts use enough different musculature for them to be meaningful. and it was just an example, you could also replace dips with LTEs or cable flyes and be just fine if the primary lift thing scares you
im going to bed now, have a good day or whatever it is youre having
>>35473052
What a story Mark
>>35475038
>>35475219
>>35475577
>>35475796
>>35475886
>>35475950
>>35476034
>>35476182
>>35476256
>>35476346
>>35476384
>>35474005
This
>>35476346
>it literally says its the only assistance at that phase, what the hell?
Ah I understand where you're getting confused, there are different stages to SS. In the early stages you do just
Squat
Bench / press alt
Deadlift
3 times a week, then you add power cleans, then you add chin-ups then you add other assistance.
So you are right in saying that there's no accessories in the early stages, but in the actual later stage program there is accessorie lifts.
>YNDP
You are at fault if you fall for this meme. It's an easy argument against those lifters who add 100 accessories to SS and try to make it into a PPL.
However if you are an experienced lifter or accompanied by a coach then you definitely should modify or add to the program to suit your needs within reason.
A program is a guide, not a template. If you use it as a template then you will always lack results.
>m8 really just look up the ss forums.
I trust the book more, you have to pay for it so it has damn more authority than a free forum ever would, You're most likely misinterpreting information again anyway, I can't be bothered to check though.
>we can do really nothing but agree to disagree here. ive seen most PPL kind of people get to at least 70% of the strength a typical SSer would have.
A handful of people do not represent the global average. Even then your claim is simply anecdotal evidence.
>yes, but increasing strength by 20% (or even 50%) loses to having twice the tonnage due to reps and more movements.
Eventually you'll have to increase your volume so great to match a stronger lifter that you'll
>stall
>degress weight
>consequently decrease tonnage
>meh, its not like youre gonna get a perfectly balanced physique just benching, ohping and chinning. youre gonna lack rear delts, lateral delts and lower chest at least. some arms too, perhaps
Oh god, where do I even begin with this one?
I don't have enough words left to explain why this is incorrect. I know because I just tried.
>>35471313
>>35471388
He admitted on his forums that he used dianabol at one point but that's like not even real steroids.
>>35476384
Get a better understanding of fatigue accumulation and you'll realise where you went wrong here
>Longest, most tiresome thread I have seen this year. Feels like 2015 on /pol/ all over again.
Can anyone get through these shitpost dissertations without coming down with a case of "I don't give a fuck"
>>35476646
I have never lost an argument on the Internet and never will
>>35476790
>Tushay
If you tear a fucking bicep while doing lifts as a 'professional' obvi you dont know what the fuck you're doing
https://www.instagram.com/p/5dVYAHFGu9/
>>35476943
I've know professionals who've torn their bicep picking up a box of printer paper. Biceps will pop from just about any hyper extending movement.
>>35477030
They didnt use good technique on 20 fucking pounds?
Fuck outta here
