Why aren't you vegan yet fatties?
I heard that they switched to vegan. Is that true? If so why? They literally eat meat, cheese, and everything else everyday. It's a huge difference and it would be such a big jump. Why not go vegetarian for a while and then vegan. Are they doing this for more followers? Honestly don't get people who are vegitarian it vegan
because i prefer to keep my muscles
>>35402250
If you listen to them talk about their diet it's clear they have no idea what they're talking about. That, and they look substantially smaller since they switched.
These are the same people who encourage people to fuck their step sisters and in laws and refer to vaginas as sugar walls
Them going vegan is not convincing me.
>>35402358
They went vegetarian. They said they saw a video of animal slaughtering operations and didn't want to be part of that "savagery"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ_DAyay04A
They eat the same stuff they always did, just with seitan, tofu, and beans instead of meat
>>35402390
....Right
>>35404168
I don't think steroids are made from plants.
>>35404183
Do you think anabolic steroids are extracted from cows or something?
>>35403209
they didn't even go vegetarian; they went pescatarian
I don't understand why people say vegans can't get big.
You eat animals, what do you think animals eat? what do you think a fucking ox eats
The sun gives energy to the plants which gives energy to the animals, so why not skip a step and get your energy from plants?
Common fuckin sense
>>35404557
>what do you think animals eat? what do you think a fucking ox eats
roughly the same thing other oxen have eaten over the last what.. hundreds of thousands of years.
they have multiple stomachs to digest what they eat - and while that's an extreme illustration of nutritional specialisation there are other more subtle aspects such as they have less evolved nervous systems than we do hence less need for certain nutrients.
>>35404221
A day later they settled on cutting out fish too
>>35402250
>vegan
enjoy never making any gainz
>>35402250
>400 calories
because i want to gain muscle
>When your dinner totals 400 calories
why eat at all?
airgan - only eats air, looks like pic related.
https://imgur.com/a/tzViD
all of this is vegitarian
>>35404557
You can get big eating vegan or vegetarian. You just need to eat a lot and actually know what you're doing. Tracking macros/protein specifically is vital if you're vegan because you can't just eat a couple chicken breasts & a can of tuna and assume you're good for the day. The issue is that most vegan protein sources taste kinda bad, esp if you don't like beans and even moreso if you're used to eating meat, which tastes infinitely better with less effort. Vegans would rather eat fruit or bread or avocados or some good shit all day instead of 200g protein worth of green peas or beans.
I think as vegan popularizes, they will get way less annoying as a whole. Right now vegan is so fucking annoying because it's full of batshit militant animal activists and scrawny women with eating disorders who know nothing about proper nutrition. 90% of women who are vegans and not animal activists are using it as a cover for anorexia/orthorexia/EDNOS. If more normal, non-crazy people try to eat plantbased flexibly, I think it'll become less shit.
>>35405360
>it's full of batshit militant animal activists and scrawny women with eating disorders who know nothing about proper nutrition.
not surprising for a movement which runs totally against human evolution. also, signs of malnourishment may include emotional instability, mental impairment and eating disorders.
>as vegan popularizes
it's like voluntary eugenics.
>>35405360
>most vegan protein sources taste kinda bad, esp if you don't like beans and even moreso if you're used to eating meat, which tastes infinitely better with less effort.
I don't get people who have this logic. Most of the vegan staples are shit you're supposed to be eating anyway. You don't develop a healthy diet around a bunch of meat with no legumes or other plant protein sources. If you don't like the taste of some black beans, man up and learn to enjoy it anyway, it's good for you.
>400 calories
My dinner is 150kcal with tuna, you filthy lardball.
>>35405261
>no vegetables
kek.
>>35405360
>90% of women who are vegans and not animal activists are using it as a cover for anorexia/orthorexia/EDNOS. If more normal, non-crazy people try to eat plantbased flexibly, I think it'll become less shit.
"the physical effects of the induced semi-starvation during the study closely approximate the conditions experienced by people with a range of eating disorders such as anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa. As a result of the study it has been postulated that many of the profound social and psychological effects of these disorders may result from undernutrition, and recovery depends on physical re-nourishment as well as psychological treatment." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment#Related_work
I think it's also been noted that wrestlers are higher risk for disordered eating habits, maybe because they "cut weight".
>>35404168
Se right here vegan haters, look at this perfect 22 year old Adonis
>>35405513
>150kcal
you goin full auswitchz?
>>35404557
why not go all the way, and just get your calories from the sun?
>>35405261
7 out of those 9 are snacks or desserts
>>35405224
What the fuck is wrong with that man's skeletal frame?? He's got children's shoulders, baby bearing hips, and looks like he needs to shit
>>35403209
It annoys me when they show these videos, because obviously I am against what I am seeing.
But I am not against eating animals when they are farmed humanely.
These Veg videos assume that this is how all the animals are treated.
>>35406061
his name is Josh.
>>35404557
>comparing human anatomy to that of an ox
vegans, everyone.
>>35406226
i'm sure most of them are. i guess you could only buy meats that are raised humanely. but i also feel like it isn't economically/environmentally efficient to raise animals humanely and still keep costs/resource utilization down. i'm only guessing tho
>>35404557
>gorillas eat plants, why shouldn't humans be able to uproot trees with their hands for fun?
>Common fuckin sense
>>35405588
op obviously thinks low cal will make you jacked tho
vegetarian is ok, vegan is full retard activist faggots. Go to the middle east where people are inhumanely killed you fucking hypocrites
>>35405360
>The issue is that most vegan protein sources taste kinda bad
Debatable.
Tofu and the like is pretty good, assuming you cook and season correctly. TVP is also tasteless and is dirt fucking cheap if you don't buy it from a a store ran by jews. Tastes great on cereal, in bars and etc.
>>35406327
>>35404557
Gorillas and every primate that I know of, including us, eats whatever they can find, plant or animal. Apes are omnivores and have evolved to be able to digest both plant and animal. Oxen and all other bovine animals have evolved to eat only grasses and have a special digestive system to deal with it, their stomachs have 4 compartments and they often regurgitate the grass to chew on it more, humans cannot do this shit. The ox analogy is retarded.
>>35406261
>>35406061
>>35405224
>>35406405
It looks like a tiny gnome poking his head out of a swole suit like pinky and the brain.
>>35406379
>Tofu and the like is pretty good
enjoy your gyno
>>35406385
Fite me
>>35406327
Because the human body is much more suited for endurance over strength. Compared to other animals, especially primates, we're a pretty DYEL species.
>>35406378
The point of veganism to try to reduce harm to other animals that we have no right slaughtering and exploiting, just because they taste great.
Not some hippie movement about love and peace, trying to make the world a better place or something like that.
>>35406422
>what is plant estrogen
Idk m8, I don't think I'm a plant.
>>35406471
>Because the human body is much more suited for endurance over strength
Not just endurance, but fine motor control.
Can you imagine an ape throwing a spear or ball accurately enough to hit a target? They don't have the coordination.
>>35402250
>hodgetwins
>natty
>>35406540
Lmao. That's true too.
>>35406417
well, he's British.
>>35402250
The fattest people I know are literally vegan. My sister is vegan and she's probably a 31 or a 32 BMI.
95% of vegans do so for animal rights reasons, not health. They're carb monsters and it shows.
>>35406592
Well duh.
It's not like not eating meat suddenly means a calorie isn't a calorie.
You're sister is just a fat cunt with poor eating choices.
>>35406458
our intellect allowed us to evolve past eating just plants.
As we built tools and developed language, we became more suited to attack other animals for food.
>>35404183
>steroids somehow form muscles without amino acids
>>35406645
Yeah, but gorillas aren't omnivores. I'm in favor of us eating meat
>>35406712
What are you even talking about?
He was saying that modern AAS aren't derived from animals. It's all sythetic.
>>35402390
You know buddy, eggs and hemp whey are enough for you's proteins need.
>>35402250
I hate generaly the others vegan or vegetarian they are haugthy and marvellously dumb. I don't care for the sentiments or the sensibility of the animals, They are fucking animals they don't think.
However i truely believe the fact of eat healtly meat and not the shit they product in massive proportion and poorly condition are bad for your you.
The raly case when i heat some flesh its when i go back in my hometown i know and see where and how the animals have grow up.
The fact of heating meat everyday made my sad, if you are not a athlec or great sportive you dont need this everyday, one per week maybe 2 if you realy like it. But everyday , nah that's why the hoverproduction killed the earth, 75% of farming are for feed animals, that's ridiculous if we drop only to 50% weel th'as be great for every one its this world. But you know well bacon is life you OP communist faggot.
>>35406226
is it humane to gas or partially decapitate a human? if the answer is no then it is also not right to do so to animals.
dont be speciest.
Just remember that meat is a carcinogen and you are literally killing yourselfs and the environment by supporting this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emaKXLXDdrg
http://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/
http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/diet/cooked-meats-fact-sheet
Be smart
Make a resolution to go vegan next year!
>>35406592
Really? the fattest people you know are vegans? I don't believe that even a little bit, just because of numbers.
Sure, vegans can be fat, but it's highly unlikely that the fattest people you know are vegans, simply because the vast majority of people you know aren't vegans.
>>35407127
this is legit my new year's resolution, only I'm not gonna do it for a couple of months.
I'm cutting out all animal products except for sardines. I'm not sure about omega 3 as a vegan
i highly doubt these guys are truly vegan now....
>>35407127
people need to read the china study by colin campbell. people only argue that meat is a requirement of a good diet because they like it, not because there is any scientific evidence for it.
im also especially skeptical that weightlifters require extraordinary amounts of protein (eg 1gram/lb of bodyweight) for muscle building and recovery. especially since protein consumption (mainly animal protein) drives cancer growth.
>>35407127
>pseudoscience intensifies
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/what-does-the-who-report-mean-for-your-meat-eating-habit/
>>35407182
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vegan+sources+of+omega+3
>>35407305
right, but the human body is an incredibly inefficient converter of ALA to DHA, and I'm not really about taking an omega 3 supplement.
>>35407210
>the china study
>>35407292
i havent read what you posted but im assuming it is the WHO suggesting that eating processed meats increase cancer risk from 5% to 5.9% or something. this is because you are comparing someone who already eats meat to someone who eats meat that is also processed. this is pointless since meat consumption is heavily associated with increased cancer risks as well as other diseases.
the china study is the most thorough examine of the effects of diet and disease and demonstrated that the rate of heart disease were greatly reduced in rural chinese who ate more plants and as a result ate less animals.
>Coronary artery disease mortality was 16.7-fold greater for US men and 5.6-fold greater for US women than for their Chinese counterparts.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9860369
>Most large prospective observational studies show that vegetarian diets are at least modestly cancer protective (10%–12% reduction in overall cancer risk)
This is an extremely conservative estimate btw.
>diet may be linked to as many as 70% of cases of colorectal and prostate cancer, 50% of cases for breast, endometrial, pancreatic, and gallbladder cancers
This is obviously referring to the western diet which contains large proportions of animal products.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048091/
The biggest killers in the west are heart disease and cancer which are largely a non-issue in less affluent cultures that eat largely plant based diets due to the lack of access to large amounts of animal products.
>>35407347
enjoy your cancer.
>>35407011
is it humane to cut or partially slice a human? if the answer is no then it is also not right to do so to vegetables either
>>35407526
Why must you idiots do this every time?
Eating meat kills FAR more plants than eating plants
>>35407467
I think the killer you are looking for is obesity.
but keep blaming the meat booggy man.
>>35407467
non issue in less affluent countries because people typically die before cancer and CVD can kill them.
cancer and CVD are very much endgame diseases.
>>35406458
Do ants, snails and grubs count as vegan to you?
>>35402250
because im bulking and dont have the time money or effort to put together an array of fucking nuts and legumes to fit my macros and micros
>>35407571
among the worst arguments I've ever read
>>35407598
yet it's probably the most popular and correct argument made in regards to why things like cancer rates are increasing rapidly.
because we aren't dying in our 30s/40s anymore.
people are living into their 80s/90s/100s.
the population is skewed heavily toward the elderly and we're going to see a massive influx of elderly as the next generation retires.
to make the point:
oh my god people in africa aren't dying of CVD and cancer, that must because of PLANT BASED DIETZ.
no it's because average lifespan in Africa & South Africa is about 45 - 59 years old.
the vast majority of cancers are diagnosed: 50 - 74 years.
surely this isn't too complex for you.
>>35407641
is this nigger serious?
We we never dying in our 30s/40s
we were dying in infancy or living to old age. that's how you skew an average
if you're not trolling, you're literally one of the dumbest people on the internet.
>>35407659
i take it you read my point, realised you had no counter, and so latched onto the most minuscule part of my post as your last ditch effort to save face.
well played.
>>35407673
Sorry, I didn't read past it because it was just that stupid
it already evidenced a total misunderstanding. why read on?
>>35407659
also here's a website that might help you understand average lifespan circa 1900s.
http://demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html
notice the 30s/40s there?
yeah.
;)
>>35407682
>http://demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html
again, that is an average, skewed by the fact that lots of people died in infancy
once you made it to majority, you were going to live for a long time
you know what, you can respond if you want, but I'm done. you're too stupid.
>>35407700
you know somebody knows what they're talking about when they can't argue their position at all other than waving their hand.
>>35407127
Nah, just be smart and eat grass-fed beef, Pasture raised chicken. CAFO lots are garbage for nutrient density.
>>35407467
You're arguments have so many loaded statements that I don't think you actually understand how slanted you are. Every statement has the presumption of meat being terrible when the evidence only says certain things about meat.
>this is because you are comparing someone who already eats meat to someone who eats meat that is also processed. this is pointless since meat consumption is heavily associated with increased cancer risks as well as other diseases.
you don't know this. you are not a scientist. There are an infinite number of variables involved when drawing asinine conclusions like this. Processed meat is terrible. this isn't news and no one intelligent will disagree with you. However, I have never seen a single study that used locally sourced, sustainable raised, properly fed meat. Processed meat is the bottom of the barrel, but grass-fed free range beef is the fucking tits. Beef like this has an Omega 3 to 6 ratio reversed. In many cases 100x greater nutrient concentrations. Increased medium chain sat. fat, and reduced long chain sat fat. tl;dr its good for you.
>the china study is the most thorough examine of the effects of diet and disease and demonstrated that the rate of heart disease were greatly reduced in rural chinese who ate more plants and as a result ate less animals.
The conclusions of Colin Campbell are a little extreme. France eats a fair amount of animal product and saturated fat but has a much lower rate of heart disease.I don't hear a vegan sighting this fact because it doesn't support your view. France both exercises more and cares more about the well-being of the animals they raise, creating a healthier product.
Captcha: select all images of steak
>>35407765
>>35407467
Continued.
>diet may be linked to as many as 70% of cases of colorectal and prostate cancer, 50% of cases for breast, endometrial, pancreatic, and gallbladder cancers
>This is obviously referring to the western diet which contains large proportions of animal products.
Stop! you are not the fucking scientist. This is not "obviously referring" to anything, because scientists fucking state what is obvious so shit lords like you don't walk away making ridiculous fucking claims. Colorectal cancer and diet are related by overall motility, among other things.Meat slows down gastric transit time by merit of it not being fibrous. You know how you fix that? You eat more god damn fiber. The west is already renown for a low fiber diet, so again, attributing it exclusively to meat, is incorrect. Similarly, pancreatic and gall bladder problems relate to excess fat in the diet with reduced hydration status. The west loves plenty of fried food that isn't necessarily meat. As well as soda, coffee, and sweetened drinks that reduce your ability to stay hydrated. Notice how neither of those things I said have to do with meat, but are also correct statements, but your statements are lies by omission?
>biggest killers in the west are heart disease and cancer which are largely a non-issue in less affluent cultures that eat largely plant based diets due to the lack of access to large amounts of animal products.
Falsely attributing vegan diets to longevity again. You know what the biggest risk factor is for diabetes? it's not sugar, its not some bullshit about meat, its actually just being sedentary. You know how you reduce arterial plasticity in someone with atherosclerosis? exercise. You know how you reduce any number of the top 10 causes of death in the west? Exercise!. Exercise is fucking amazing for health. Pointing out veganism exclusively is a lie by omission. Similar to my previous example about france, exercise reduces all cause mortality very effectively.
>>35407571
except the studies are better designed then that. the china study for example only compares rural chinese and americans that are of the same age and exercise similar amounts. after you correct for those differences all that is left is the diet. and as the study shows the resulting increase in risk for cancer and heart disease is due to the larger proportions of meat and dairy consumed by americans.
>>35407787
>after you correct for those differences all that is left is the diet
which can be further broken down to a slew of other factors of which meat is one
>>35407825
I bet you feel like a faggot after you wrote "Exercise!" with a faggot sarcastic exclamation point, only to have it destroyed
>>35402250
Having no protein or fat is bad, that's why
>>35407781
fibre is only present in plants and therefore the only alternative is to eat more vegetables. i didnt try and explain HOW plant based diets improve your health only that they do. there can be no argument that a plant based diet isnt superior for you in every way.
you are trying to argue semantics by referring to fried foods and high added sugar products which obviously play a role. someone who is vegan and only consumes coke and kale will also be extremely unhealthy and potentially obese. however, this isnt the point. i was specifically talking about plant based foods versus meat products.
the fact that you say exercise is the cure for modern lifestyle diseases demonstrates that you know nothing about diet. heart disease and cancer can actually be reversed by eating a strict vegetarian diet. you need to read about the work done by caldwell esselstyn, dean ornish and colin campbell. they demonstrate not only how but why plant based diets are superior and why the western nations keep getting sicker. and its solely due to eating too much animal products. animal fat and protein is not equal to the plant equivalent, it is demonstrably inferior and causes heart disease and cancer and verifiable by research.
I will never understand why you meat faggots are so eager to cape up for industries that hate you and actively kill you
>>35407848
Fuck off vegan, your chronically low test is making you bitchy. You're probably not even a fitizen, just some edgelord cuck from virgingains channel here to shit post while sipping some warm nut milk.
>>35407898
I'm not vegan. I just thought it was funny.
made funnier by the "I know what scientist couldn't possibly have controlled for - the most obvious confounding variable possible" as if you were intelligent aspect of it.
>>35405360
>You can get big eating vegan or vegetarian. You just need to eat a lot and actually know what you're doing. Tracking macros/protein
Been vegan for a few months and have an over 125kg overhead.
More than anything it has taught me modern recommended protein amounts are bull. I used too get 200g minimum when on paleo. Now I'm getting around 1g/kg to 20g more without any strength loss. To top it off I look better and feel healthier in every way.
Getting 1g/kg from plant sources is very easy on vegan. Simply eat a big meal of lentils or beans once a day. It is worth noting that Arnold/Franco ate 1g/kg in the 70s with 30g ontop when lifting heavy.
>>35407851
it has been shown that the healthiest levels of protein and fat are ~10% of your daily calorie intake, with the rest being made up of complex carbohydrates such as starch. but it has to be plant fat and protein for it to be optimally healthy.
i bet you can see where i am going with this. yes being vegetarian/vegan is healthier when done correctly.
>>35407870
>>35407925
>No source
>unironically thinking your meme diet is healthy
Enjoy dat diabeetus and vitamin deficiencies.
>>35407930
im not actually vegan, but i am trying to be vegetarian since i have only started reading about this stuff this december. but ive been thoroughly convinced by the research which i can highly recommend. you can probably tell i am a massive fucking shill but the work of colin campbell is the best place to start for why plant based diets are your only choice for improving your health.
just go to youtube and watch lectures by colin campbell and caldwell esselstyn or dean ornish.
>>35407952
nigga are you me?
literally everything you just wrote describes me exactly
also, watch forks over knives maybe. I did that too
I wish this whole thread was bait.
But having known a few vegans (all of which have quit due to health issues) I know that it isn't.
>>35407946
the reason im not posting sources but keep mentioning the china study is because i would have to go and photocopy the data/graphs shown in the book and list the scientific papers which are mostly behind paywalls. all my statements are from studies performed by the physicians and researchers i mentioned here >>35407952
youtube them. it fucking simple and in a few minutes you would realise my faggot shilling ass is based on expert opinions.
>>35407952
>>35407961
I'm the guy with the 125kg overhead.
The problem is many vegans eat too few calories. Most cram in vegetables/salad/berry smoothies and think they're doing good. They're not. On a this kind of diet veg and most fruits are a garnish. You need to load up with rice, potatos, beans and pulses.
>>35407993
I find that it's a good idea to base your entire diet around calories. Find out how many you need to get, and then worry about the break down.
>>35407993
are you 6'4" around 275 vegan that posts here sometimes?
>>35407975
The China Study is literal shit and is why no self respecting scientist takes nutrition "science" seriously. Not only are observational studies notoriously unreliable even when done properly and honestly, but they took erroneous conclusions from the data and excluded data that contradicted the desired conclusion. If you're basing a huge diet change to a meme diet off of that study them you either didn't research very hard or are very gullible. Either way, goodbye gains, you hardly knew them.
>>35407958
keep it up anon. yeah im also watching docos about diet and other stuff but i focus a lot on the research since its more useful but recently ive watched food inc, cowspiracy and that sugar film (which was mediocre).
>>35407870
>there can be no argument that a plant based diet isnt superior for you in every way.
Incorrect. No study on sustainable raised, grass fed beef, or pasture raised animals has ever been performed. The closest thing being the nutrient assays that indicate 100 fold increases in nutrient density and overall reduction in any number of modern problems specifically related to CAFO farming (TMAO production, omega 3 to 6 ratio, saturated fat concentration, etc). Plenty of animal products surpass plants in nutrient cocnentration. Liver heart and bones are amazing. I eat ~10 cups of vegetables a day; I am not blindly defending meat. I am trying to stop the bastardization of fact.
>you are trying to argue semantics by referring to fried foods and high added sugar products which obviously play a role.
the link cited had to do with diet and its role in cancer. The poster falsely interchanged 'diet' with 'meat'. False atttribution is more than just semantics.
>heart disease and cancer can actually be reversed by eating a strict vegetarian diet.
I agree (with the addition of exercise), but this has nothing to do with some ethereal power of plants or inherent evil in meat.
>you need to read about the work done by caldwell esselstyn, dean ornish and colin campbell.
have you read the works of Robert Kelly or Weston A. Price? I have a BS in nutrition. I am more well read than all of my classmates were, and probably you.
>>35403209
>that one overweight amerifat hitting the pig to make them go faster
Just like when their bankers make them work faster for shekels
>>35408011
No, never head of him. I'm 6'2 and 194.
>>35408019
oh really? please post all the other research showing that high meat diets are actually the cure of all our problems and we just need 300 grams of animal protein a day to keep the doctor away.
>>35408022
Forks over knives is basically a colin campbell and esselstyn documentary. it's literally all about them and their work
>>35408024
nobody would argue that meat isnt nutrient dense but then again nobody in the west is actually dying from lack of macronutrients ie malnutrition. we have the opposite problem. people are binging on unhealthy foods.
>>35408024
Different guy, I do think there's a huge difference between free range grass fed meat and industrial production meat. The issue is that the vast majority of people who eat meat are eating the latter, and in quantities far too great. I genuinely don't think humans are designed to eat 200g-400g of meat at every meal multiple times a day, if people ate good, lean meat in reasonable quantities there wouldn't be any real argument towards it being unhealthy. The issue is that weird chemical meat makes up like 50% of the average American plate, for multiple meals, and most of them use meat as their only protein source instead of adding in beans, soy, greek yogurt, milk or whatever else.
>>35408043
Lol, so you're just willingly ignorant than I see. Blindly believe the China "Study" if you like, butI'm not going to spoon feed someone who wouldn't even read anything I linked.
>>35408108
>I genuinely don't think humans are designed to eat 200g-400g of meat at every meal multiple times a day
One of the things that I was blind to at the height of my paleo cult was the fact that Western obesity has gone up with meat consumption.
Look at all those thin working class faces from pictures from 1880-1950. Think they were eating steaks and huge slabs of meat? Of course not. Meat was a special treat or a garnish within a meal. The only people who were eating meat in large quantities were the upper classes. No surprise gout was once defined as a disease only found in the upper class.
>>35408148
Other thing about the paleo cult, where did they get the fool notion that humans were eating meat all of the time in nature?
fucking nonsense
>>35402250
>when you have to double your pins
>>35408116
ill look into it since i have only just started researching this stuff. you say that observational dietary studies are useless but there is no alternative so i dont find that to be a convincing argument.
what sources have you actually posted other than Robert Kelly or Weston A. Price?
have you seen the studies done by campbell on mice and rats where the development of cancer was based solely on the amount of animal protein consumed? im just interested since you suggest that there is an alternative or better diet than a vegetarian one and im somehow delusion to believe all this extremely consistent and thorough yet somehow wrong research by experts on the subject?
Every single one of these threads proves vegetarians right over and over again.
I personally cut killing out of my diet
I still eat eggs and milk though, I'm not opposed to that. Same with most fish, as they don't have the brain power to facilitate consciousness or aware suffering, obviously not including dolphins and shit
it's been amazing, please /fit/, just join us in the based future
>>35408148
You want to know how I know you nothing about this topic? Western meat consumption has been steadily declining even as obesity, diabetes, and heart disease rates go up. And that's just overall consumption, per capita has been going down for decades.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2012/01/10/were-eating-less-meat-why/?referer=
Stop making baseless assumptions and actually learn something.
>>35408160
Take an anthropology course.
>>35408179
>Dolphins
>Fish
>>35408179
There are studies out there that demonstrate people believe what they believe even harder when presented with evidence to the contrary, you probably missed those ones though.
>>35408148
>Western obesity has gone up with meat consumption
Western obesity has gone up with sugar consumption.
How often did people buy and eat fucking candy bars, sodas, ice cream treats did they have 50 years ago?
They make up entire aisles at super markets now because people eat them every day.
>>35408160
I actually believed it! Yeah, Inuits are a great society to base a diet on... A primitive society which barely eeks out survival.
http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/eat-and-drink/10983-inuit-diet-does-not-protect-against-heart-disease-fish-oil-capsules-may-even-be-harmful.html
>>35408168
>I'd rather take garbage science no better than baseless guessing over nothing
You see how silly that is? I know observational studies are often all there is for nutritional science, and that's why the whole field is a fucking laughing stock. It's even more hilarious that people treat it like some kind of unalienable dogma when the science cited isn't worth the paper it's written on. Add in the fact that literally every study is paid shilling by some group or another and you really have to be slow to take it without question. Believing bullshit because the truth isn't yet known makes zero sense.
I haven't posted any sources, I'm questioning the validity of the ones you've posted.
Comparing vegetarian rat species' reaction to meat to an omnivorous human's reaction should be self evidently stupid I would hope.
There is a better alternative, it's called eating what humanity has always eaten. Can't beat that bud.
>>35408246
>I haven't posted any sources,
not that guy, but you just posted
>I'm not going to spoon feed someone who wouldn't even read anything I linked.
he was probably asking you which links you were referring to, as that was the excuse you gave for not "spoon feeding" him
>>35408246
>There is a better alternative, it's called eating what humanity has always eaten.
so, primarily root vegetables, fruit, and a tiny bit (and I do mean tiny) of meat?
>>35408281
sorry, I should have included nuts and seeds as well
but almost no meat at all, that's for sure
>>35408281
>>35408290
Post source.
>>35408264
No, I meant that it seemed like he wouldn't read based off of his attitude. I've spent hours in the past finding solid links just to have a vegan respond in sixty seconds saying they won't read it or it's wrong. Even though a minute isn't enough time to read a study, let alone nitpick it.
>>35408281
>>35408290
Are you retarded? Human diets varied enormously during our hunter gatherer days, from almost completely vegetarian to almost completely meat based. I'm not sure what society you're extrapolating to all of early humanity, but literally none of the science I've read or education I've had supports what you think.
>>35408246
so basically your opinion is science doesnt work and is dumb.
impressive.
>>35408313
So then how is a better alternative "eating what humanity has always eaten" if that is literally whatever?
>>35408313
you are acting like an authority on the subject but refuse to post sources or evidence for what is the healthiest diet.
since you are posting no sources i have nothing to use to understand your point of view. i need some evidence and sources to counter the work i have read by the likes of colin campbell.
>>35408371
m8, you wouldn't read it anyway, so he's not gonna post it
he totally could though. it's your fault he won't
>>35408322
Holy shit, you're either a top tier troll or literally retarded. I should really learn not to argue with vegans, you're all fucking delusional.
>>35408325
>So then how is a better alternative "eating what humanity has always eaten" if that is literally whatever?
That's exactly my point. There is no "best" diet if it's shit we've always eaten and nutritionally balanced. That ranges from a shit ton of tubers and grubs to virtually nothing but seafood and sea plants. Humans evolved to shove literally anything edible that we could catch into our mouths, so we would have noticed millennia ago if certain things killed us over the long term. If you think we couldn't, then nobody would ever have figured out how to neutralize the toxins in legumes or grains through processing, or activate the niacin in corn to stop themselves from dying. Literally all anti meat science falls into two categories: questionable at best due to methodology, or that AND paid for by shills.
Now, if there's ever a decent study that proves causation between meat and cancer/heart disease/whatever that doesn't have shit methodology or questionable funding then I'll eat my words and make a thread apologizing for being wrong. Until then, I'm taking it all with a massive grain of salt, as anybody with a science background would. I'm not saying you're 100% unquestionably wrong, but your studies are far from enough to support such bold claims.
>>35408371
>dont post any sources
>call someone else out on them
lol vegans
>>35408371
I'm not, I'm saying the sources provided are crappy. I've written up critiques on the China Study in the past, so if you'd actually read it then I'd be happy to try to find one and post it. There's a big difference between making a positive claim and rejecting one.
>>35408376
Purdy much.
>>35408379
paid for by shills of what? who benefits by people going vegetarian?
it's clear who benefits by people eating meat
>>35408396
>who benefits by people going vegetarian?
PETA and other similar organizations, vegetable and fruit growers, etc. It's just as clear the other way even if you can't see it.
>>35408415
m8, those are non-profit organizations
and vegetable growing is increased by meat eaters
>>35408396
Not that guy but does vegan food pop out of thin air? Are there no companies catering to the vegan crowd?
>>35408429
lol the organisation that gives huge amounts of money to terrorists is "nonprofit" thats good to know
>>35408396
Why do missionaries go to poor countries?
Veganism is an ideology just as much as any religion. Vegan shills, shill for the sake of spreading their ideology.
>>35408431
not that I can think of with the clout to fabricate a large study
>>35408442
but it is
that's just a fact
>>35408449
lol
Cause i'm not a fgt
>>35408462
dude what
>>35408429
>m8, those are non-profit organizations
Never said they weren't, but they're not above shilling for their cause or inventing scientific data. Those aren't mutually exclusive like you think that are. Also a banana company once staged a coup in central America to consolidate its interests there, so cooking data is hardly beyond the realm of thought for them.
Vegetable growing is unaffected by meat, only grains and soy are affected. I purposefully didn't mention those in my comment.
>>35408462
So, studies funded by institutes of learning are shilled because institutes of learning are... what are you even saying here?
>>35408485
>a book with a clear agenda and misrepresented data is not an example of someone having the clout to fabricate a large study
>>35407550
We'll stop doing it when you idiots stop equating animal life with human life.
>>35408502
The quest was "are there no companies that cater to the vegan crowd"
and I responded with , "none that I can think of with that sort of clout"
and then dude responded with the China study, which was funded by two universities, as if two universities were the missing examples of companies that cater to the vegan crowd
that's utterly nonsensical
>>35408518
the problem is that, even if you equate all life, veganism results in the least loss of life
so as a response to false equivalencies of the value of life, it fails utterly, because no matter how you value life, veganism results in the loss of less of it
this is true, even if you value plant life as significantly more important than animal life. because veganism kills fewer plants
>>35408544
the point has nothing to do with "who kills more".
It is regarding the moral position that killing animals is wrong but killing plants is okay.
It is a slippery slope whose logical conclusion is that eating is immoral.
>>35408604
but the point is, even if killing both is wrong, veganism is better because it does it less
and it's not a slippery slope that leads to that, because we're not idiotic (or I'm not), so nobody would advocate a thing which results in human extinction
>>35408502
its agenda is to use science to demonstrate how animal products are causing the majority of western disease and explain why our health keeps getting worse. please provide explicit examples of misrepresented data from the china study or a counter argument other than "just eat anything lmao thats what our ancestors did" which is anti-intellectual tripe and is the equivalent of just switching your brain off.
>>35402250
>Why aren't you vegan yet fatties?
Because I am neither fat nor am I self-destructive, your thread is invalid.
>>35408604
you misunderstand the argument of the animal rights movement and veganism.
animals are sentient and have the potential to suffer. plants are not sentient and therefore cannot suffer and as a result it is morally acceptable to eat plants but not animals. the basis of these movements is that it is morally right to avoid as much suffering as possible.
>>35408179
Fish have nerves and brains. They definitely feel pain. You can just tell when they are writhing in agony when injured. Feeling pain is the most basic of things and doesn't even require a brain half the time. There are many invertebrates without brains and only nerves and they writh in pain too.
>>35408672
that's not the point.
even if plants are sentient and can suffer, veganism causes it less than eating meat
it doesn't require you to value one over the other
>>35408544
But you're still working on the presupposition that loss of non-human life = bad. No one feels bad after they swat a fly or step on an ant; why should they logically be expected to feel bad for a cow or lamb? At least those of us who see nothing wrong with killing non-humans are honest.
Vegans are honest to a point: it's easy to be a vegan in a world where they sell tofu just down the road; it doesn't inconvenience them. But they persist living in houses and cities when thousands of ecosystems are destroyed by them. They still use electricity when though many animals' lives are destroyed by the energy sources (both renewable and non-renewable). If they were TRULY honest to their philosophy, they would move out of their middle-class neighbourhoods and live off the earth 'as nature intended'. Oh but wait - where would they get their B12 fortified soy milk from then?
Vegetarianism is as old as human civilization itself; I have nothing against them. Veganism is an absolutely new and ultimately unsustainable phenomenon that is quite literally no older than the 19th century. Even Jains - who are the very definition of pacifists (they watch every step they take to ensure they don't step on a bug) - are still mostly lacto-ovo vegetarians.
>muh dogs and cats
They occupy a special place in most human societies as pets but I see nothing wrong with eating them either so long as their meat was nutritious and they weren't anybody's pets.
>>35408684
I feel bad after I kill bugs. Sometimes I sit and regret it for quite a while.
And you make the mistake of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Sure, vegans do lots of things that are detrimental to the environment. Why should that mean that cutting one of those things down significantly isn't a good thing?
>>35408684
Pic very much related.
>>35408700
not all of these products are essential and just because they are produced from animals doesnt mean they have to be. they just happen to be produced from animals because we kill so many of them and the carcasses are used for numerous purposes. just because something can be used for something doesnt mean it should.
though the point provided by this picture is important and its possible a truly vegan society may not be possible.
>>35408716
>its possible a truly vegan society may not be possible.
That's totally fine with me. For me, not eating animal products is better for the environment, the animals, and it costs me very little. Everything doesn't need to be perfect; it's just better if it's better.
>>35408672
You believe that having the potential to suffer is all that is required?
I would argue fish and certainly chickens are to stupid to actually suffer.
What is your basis of "sentient" and what constitutes suffering? Does being completely oblivious to what is happening walking into a squeeze shoot, and being rendered unconscious by a captive bolt pistol constitute being in a state of suffering?
>>35408683
>it doesn't require you to value one over the other
It obviously does, to end the most suffering the best option is suicide.
Vegans aren't a death cult so the obviously value their lives or human lives to above those of others.
>>35408698
I was playing devil's advocate in order to dispel the delusion (in which many vegans share) of living a completely 'ethical' life.
I agree that we should do as much as possible to limit suffering of sentient beings.
I agree that modern day animal farming is inhumane and detrimental to the environment.
And I agree that it would do all people a great deal of good to cut down meat consumption from a daily thing to a luxury (as it has been for most of human history in most societies until industrialization). Hell, I think that in an ideal world, if someone wanted to eat meat they should slaughter/hunt the animal themselves at least once rather than having some stranger hundreds of miles away do it for them.
Nevertheless, I will fight tooth and nail against the self-righteous PETA drones who are so out of touch with reality.
Do you not eat animal products for health reasons? Fine.
Do you not eat animal products because you don't like the taste? Fine.
Do you not eat animal products because of the environment? Fine.
Do you not eat animal products because you love animals so much? Fine.
Do you not eat animal products because they cost too much? Fine.
Do you not eat animal products because you've gotten it into your head you are living an 'ethical' lifestyle more in line with 'nature' and look down upon and vilify those who do eat animal products? Fuck you.
>>35408724
>>35408716
We already know that a vegan diet is not sustainable world wide.
The resources and land needed to to provide only vegetables to the entire population would destroy the ecosystem.
Countless animals would die off from having their land taken.
Water supplies would run out from man made irrigation lines.
A vegan society is not plausible anymore than a meat eating society.
Or or or...
We could kill off half the worlds population right now and help solve a lot of this issues we are debating.
>>35408769
right, the shared premise of us all is that the extinction of humanity isn't a moral or desirable option
you seem to think this represents a logical flaw, when really it is, as I said, a shared premise.
now, given that premise, vegans seek to reduce suffering. as do you, probably
>>35408781
This
At the end of the day, Vegans are no different than Transgender fags or Muslims.
>convert or die.
Doing something because you want to is fine, trying to add some ethical reason and badgering me like a fucking woman is not ok.
>>35408783
m8, we have the land already in use. that is sufficient to sustain the world's population
please stop with the stupid shit. understand first that eating meat requires more resources and land because, in order to do it in the volume that we do it, we have to cultivate land to grow crops to feed the animals.
>>35408798
>m8, we have the land already in use. that is sufficient to sustain the world's population
>please stop with the stupid shit. understand first that eating meat requires more resources and land because, in order to do it in the volume that we do it, we have to cultivate land to grow crops to feed the animals.
>all this implying.
We are nowhere near land capacity for either kid.
1. Water is not a renewable resource.
2. You can not reuse crop lands every year, they must have off seasons, otherwise it destroys the land.
3. Eventual overpopulation will lead to more land being taken even on a Vegan diet.
4. Animals will die due to this land being taken.
5. Over 1/3 of the entire worlds land can not support crop growth.
This shit isn't hard.
Neither is self sustaining.
There is no such thing as self sustaining when it comes to humans, we will continue to breed, we will continue to grow, we will continue to devour.
It does not matter which diet you are on, the population will keep growing.
This is world science 101 buddy.
Either agree population control is mandatory or take your none high school graduating ass over to /sci/.
>>35408781
And the great irony in all this is that even in their quest to live 'Suffering-Free'(TM) lives, they don't even give a second thought to human suffering. They barely give a thought to the underpaid South American farmers who grow their quinoa in slave-like conditions. They don't give a thought to the sweatshop workers who make their clothes. They'd sooner chain themselves to a gate to protest animal-farming than their country invading another country.
No, all they think about is what goes in their mouth and out their ass then call it a day. What a load of shit.
>>35408830
I'm not replying anymore
you are significantly bringing down the level of discourse. these are issues that are already definitively resolved.
>>35408830
>There is no such thing as self sustaining when it comes to humans, we will continue to breed, we will continue to grow, we will continue to devour.
This. A thousand times this.
Humans enjoy our position as masters of the planet not because of our ability to create but our ability to destroy.
Before we can create cities and the power station that powers the electricity that powers the servers this website is hosted on, we destroy.
We create fire, we mine metal and cut rock. Nothing on this planet is created without a destructive process.
All vegans do is point at a puddle and call it the ocean.
>>35408848
>you are significantly bringing down the level of discourse. these are issues that are already definitively resolved.
Vegans can't even come up with good b8.
Look at this faggot and laugh.
>>35408867
Kek, I know breh.
When we savage carnivores stop shitposting and engage these spoilt low-test manchildren, they get rekt every time.
>>35406458
i swear ive seen a nature doc where a gorilla eats a baby gorilla
>>35408863
Even worst m8.
Most of our society will crumble before the vegan self sustaining argument would even come into play.
So it makes no sense anyways to try it.
When the world crumbles half the world will not be able to live vegan, there are huge populations that just can't grow plants in their respected areas.
We are talking no fuel, no resources at all to get these people the needed nutrients from a vegan diet.
HELL
Even here in The. U.S. and Europe there will be no machines to help cultivate that much food, it would take half the population to work the fields once the machines run out of resources or we don't even have iron/steel to make new machines.
We are very nearly hitting that massive population drop, at that point its survival of the fittest.
Watch all the vegans take that ethical dick right up there ass when it's hunter/gatherer time and niggers be out stabbing squirrels and picking berries for their meals.
The Vegan debate is the least important problem right now, since the starvation issue wouldn't happen for at least another hundred years.
>>35406458
chimps and orangutans eat bird eggs
>>35408894
We discussed this in last nights thread.
Hippos/Gorillas will eat meat if it's provided.
Since it's not provided often in their natural environment, they rarely eat it.
Hippos will straight up eat meat.
Gorillas could care less, but if the Gorilla is hungry it will.
Chimpanzees/Baboons the most muscular animal for their respected masses are straight up omnivores.
Eating bugs/meat/fruits none stop all day.
>>35408624
Then you should advocate killing everything. Killing everything will lead to the ultimate cessation of suffering and less death in the long term. Don't half ass your shitty negative utilitarianism.
>>35408973
m8, that's ultra dumb
your mistake is that you full to understand that certain things are taken as premises or as axiomatic
killing everything is no good, and human extinction is no good either. there is no logical inconsistency in having such premises and then proceeding from them with the desire to limit suffer, given those premises.
you have such a simplistic grasp of philosophy that you would do well to just abstain from it altogether
>>35408990
>you have such a simplistic grasp of philosophy that you would do well to just abstain from it altogether
>>35408990
>you have such a simplistic grasp of philosophy that you would do well to just abstain from it altogether
That's rich coming from a vegan of all people.
>>35406471
Why are you cruely slaughtering vegetables to eat?
>>35406919
>eggs
>Vegen
>>35404557
Probably because we have completely different digestive systems, you fucking moron.
>>35407550
Most animals we eat only eat grass, which grows from the root
But I wouldn't expect a vegen to know that
>>35406471
> animals that we have no right slaughtering and exploiting, just because they taste great.
Why not?
>>35408916
>gorillas eat plants
>but these completely different species eat meat
so if you stop eating meat. what are we gonna do with animals being overpopulated and eating all the plants?
>>35410617
Starting tomorrow if you have a gun fuckin shoot em in the face!
400 calories VEGAN dinner
>kill yourself
>>35405452
fuck me, you are thick
>>35410613
>having 0 understanding on biology
lions sit on their asses all day and are still muscular
>>35412790
ahahha not that anon
but shit i love these threads just because i love seeing how fucking angry some of the vegan posters get about people not immediately capitulating with their very niche and unique ideals.
Veganism = the Islam of the diet world.
> it's all about peace and love man, you'll feel better for it.
> hmm, I'm not sure veganism is for me
> DO IT YOU STUPID FUCKING CUNT ILL SLIT YOUR FUCKING THROAT IF YOU DON'T FUCKING AGREE WITH ME RIGHT NOW YOU PEICE OF SHIT DONT YOU CARE ABOUT UFAKCCINGSDHGDFHGFDHGFDHDFH
>Eat meat until you're big as fuck
>Go Vegan
>Look how big you can get being Vegan!
Only thing worse is people who have done a few cycles to boost themselves and still claim natural.
>>35408502
>this book suggest meat is bad with a fair bit of evidence
hurrr its ashill im right i wanna kill needlessley u shills
>>35412902
I could prove that water is harmful to you and have a fair bit of evidence for it.
Fucking cult members.
>>35412940
>cult member
>>35412940
ok please show all your evidence that drinking normal amounts of water is harmul to me
>>35412856
Because you literally support these industries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vqIGTKuQE
Its more like
> You should stop eating meat for your health, the world's health and animal welfare
>No I'd rather be apathetic and not think about all the suffering I cause with my food choices
>Then you have bad morals
>WTF FUCKING PUSSY ASS VEGANS I'LL EAT EVEN MORE MEAT JUST TO SPITE YOU. HOW DARE YOU SHOW ME HOW MY FOOD GETS MADE. I LOVE COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
>>35413054
>morals
Diet choice has nothing to do with morals. Will my refusal to eat meat affect the way in any, minuscule way? Will anyone notice that I stop buying chicken from the supermarket and spare a few chickens? Of course not.
Vecucks stop doing your little zog shuck and jive to try and weaken the white race.
We're not buying it.
>>35407127
>Does not include chicken or fish
Where my lean meats at?
Who gives a shit? Do what you want and ignore those who don't. Vegans have no power in your life, unless you give it to them.
>>35408201
Sometimes dolphin meat can be found in canned fish, that's what he meant
>>35407127
I like meat and I am on keto diet, so bring on those cancer gains,
>>35404557
Sun gives its energy to trees, trees are harvested for wood, wood is processed into lumber, and lumber is used to build homes. Let's just skip the middle steps and live in trees.
![1457502_949200911841032_9029449452887804816_n[1].jpg_oh=7b6c5fe6961ac7c68be0af272c13acd1&oe=57020687.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/gQgCflr.jpg "1457502_949200911841032_9029449452887804816_n[1].jpg_oh=7b6c5fe6961ac7c68be0af272c13acd1&oe=57020687.jpg")
>>35406226
>I'm against what I'm seeing
>But if you use the word humane then it's fine
>>35408518
>Animals =/= humans so their lives have no value and I can slit their throats on a whim
>But also buy humane meat because I can't stand to see animals in pain
>>35414289
More likely heart disease but cancer is a close second
Also ED is in your future
>>35407765
>I have never seen a single study that used locally sourced, sustainable raised, properly fed meat
Then you have no evidence or reason to assume that this fancy meat doesn't carry health risks, right?
>France eats a fair amount of animal product and saturated fat but has a much lower rate of heart disease.I don't hear a vegan sighting this fact because it doesn't support your view
Or because it's not actually true
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-explains-the-french-paradox/
Veterinnarian here. I'm sick of this shit. Everyday dumb bitches are ragin' on about being vegan now and that we should all set the example blah blah fucking blah. How can people be so moronic? Do you really think that not eating meat will somehow make the supermarkets have it for sale? Fucking idiots, I swear.
>>35408783
a kilogram of plant uses less land than a kilogram of meat in all cases
>>35414575
ok, what about plant life?
plants evolve. They struggle to live. They compete. They attempt to prevent things from eating them. They develop poisons and thorns and chemicals. Some even kill other animals to survive.
So because plant life is further away from human life, it's ok to murder plants?
What about bacteria? They're simply trying to survive, and that kills you. So you perform a literal genocide against them to save your own life. Why? Because our lives are superior? our perception and our senses and our thoughts are better than whatever bacteria and plants do?
hell, we can't even fathom what goes on within those lifeforms. So we assume it's nothing. but that's arrogant. Just like people who try to say animal life has value. It doesn't have value. It's just the most related to us, and we are pack animals that evolved empathy. If we were solitary creatures, this discussion wouldn't even exist.
So there is a middle ground here. Eat meat sparingly. buy it as locally as possible. avoid buying from factory farms. make sure animals are treated ok and killed quickly and cleanly.
because any other moral arguments are based on the idea that "What's closest to humanity is best and must be protected".
>>35408700
>>35415369
it's more like they don't feel pain
>>35415369
Plants aren't capable of pain m8. But yes, anything living tries not to die.
A cow is capable of protecting it's young, because it cares about them to some degree.
Plants can't do things like that.
Plants are stationary and don't have emotions. They just grow and multiply, incapable of any sort of thought.
Bacteria isn't capable of thought either, and they are everywhere.
Vegans aren't hippie-dipies, they just don't like that we're causing things with the ability to feel to suffer and die just because they taste good when cooked.
>>35415309
but a kilogram of meat can feed more people than a kilogram of plant in all cases.
>>35412863
Not a vegan, but what do you think is special about animal products?
There's no advantage to meat, other than a better amino acid complex, which doesn't mean much.
>not just hunting a deer once in a while
one deer yields 55 pounds of lean meat on average. It's free and more humane than factory meat.
>>35417069
I raise my own cattle.
1 cow can yield 400+lbs of meat.
Currently working on hog and goat pens. Going to be raising them soon. Would do chickens but there is no way to do it cost effectively. Might still do it so I know where they are from and what they have eaten.
>>35408916
>chimps and orangutans eat bird eggs
yeah, but how much? I doubt it's a box of 24 eggs a day
