Remind me, folks.
After the apocalypse, what fuels still work for vehicles?
How long do they last?
What can be done to make them last longer?
No need to go into how to retrofit vehicles so that they can use other fuels, yet.
Diesel engines can run on vegetable oil.
If you ferment sugar and then distill the liquid, you'll get ethanol which flex fuel engines can run on.
>>909145
cars can run on wood too. Look up wood gasifier car.
>>909145
Alcohol and biodiesel are the only practical ones you can make but holy shit it needs so much edible plant matter to make a little bit of fuel.
I think practically electric will be the best option.
>>909165
This. You'll save up plant matter for several months and you'll get one tank
>>909165
>I think practically electric will be the best option.
Not with batteries that last 3 years
>but holy shit it needs so much edible plant matter
You don't need the edible part, just press it for the oil and process the rest to make it edible
Steam engines are quite practical. i have seen youtube videos where mopeds were modded to steam.
>>909168
People have been making lead acid batteries for a 150 years now and that's what they use to power those stupid little scooters. No reason why people won't be able to make them after SHTF.
But it couldn't hurt to have some animals you can train to pull you.
>>909145
LPG never spoils.
Depending on what kind of apocalypse we're talking about, you may be looking at either millions of tons of it just laying around, or none because it's all been looted.
If that's the case, your best best is probably going to be a woodgas truck conversion.
Takes half an hour to fire it up, but beats a horse.
>>909171
If people can synthesize sulfuric acid that easily then it's not much of a post apocalypse scenario, is it? It's just modern day Zimbabwe
everyone knows the best post apocalyptic way of transport are slaves pulling sledges
>>909159
One could make veg oil, obviously. Even animal fat could work in a two tank system. But, does veg oil break down within x years and not work?
>you'll get ethanol
So, one can make their own ethanol, and flex fuel engines can run on them straight? How quickly does ethanol break down so that it wouldn't work?
>>909165
Electric, fo sho.
>>909168
How long can one keep a bunch of unused batteries? Can they be stored in such a way that they could be usable years down the road?
>>909176
So, an engine that runs on propane. I don;t know much about combustion- safe to say that combustion needs to occur and would make noise like a normal gas or diesel engine?
Thanks very much. Would certainly love to hear more.
>>909177
>implying Zimbabwe isn't post apocalyptic
You serious, brah?
>>909145
Diesel lasts forever. Gas, a year, maybe. Batteries, 3-7 yr.
/thread
>>909208
Not quite, it will grow algae if not stored properly.
However, with an old diesel engine the possibilities are limitless! Nobody will be making runs on automatic trans fluid, for example, and an old diesel will eat that stuff just fine. Motor oil, kerosene, hydraulic oil, even stuff like cooking oil will run in older, mechanical diesels. Blending with diesel is desirable, but you really have a lot more options for fuel.
>>909145
I'd use biogas (methane) or wood gassification. You never run out of biomass for either.
I'd also be using a super capacitor bank instead of a car batter. It'd weigh a bit more but it won't die like a battery will.
Thanks for the replies, all.
Although I love hearing about other ways to make energy, what I'm really hoping to hear is how long fuels can last.
I've heard all forms of gasoline go bad pretty quickly.
Diesel can last forever?
Maybe ethanol can last forever?
>>909200
Propane vehicles exist in certain company fleets. It works the same as any gas car, except it burns 100x cleaner, slightly less mpg (about 5%) and its harder to store larger quantities of the stuff. A 20 lb propane frill tank stores about 4-5 gallons. The upside is propane lasts as long as the tank. If it leaks you lose it, a good tank is a good thing. Also the engine will pretty much last forever. Its not uncommon for a regular gas engine converted to propane to hit over 400k miles. Even more if you take care of it.
>>909218
high octane aviation fuel, which is 100 octane gasoline has an indefinite life span as long its store properly, a stabilizer may help for extreme lengths of time. Bush pilots keep the stuff out in remote places. Some are older than 50 years and still fresh. Standard gas from the local gas station is of the lowest quality.
>>909145
After a couple months, any gasoline not stabilized will clog up fuel lines, filters, and injectors/carburetors, meaning you get maybe 2 dozen miles out of it before you need to take apart your engine and clean it all.
Diesel and Propane are the only two feasible fuels for the apocalypse, unless you do a lot of work to convert an engine to kerosene, in which case you have storage issues, which can be easily remedied by keeping it in a cool, dark place.
Also, the only way to conserve fuel is to not use it. If there was some other way, we'd be using it right now.
>>909159
Except ethanol is terrible for engines, even flex fuel ones. You'd be better off burning to make steam, and using the steam to drive around.
>>909168
>Not with batteries that last 3 years
No batteries exist in the world which only last for three years. Every electric car on the market today is warrantied for 8 years. That is not the time until the batteries are depleted, but until they are 80% depleted and thus the range is considered to have decreased too much for continued automotive use.
>>909145
>>909355
Not him but batteries are an issue. Maybe not in the first 10 years but what about 20? Electric cars use high voltage sealed lithium batteries, good luck making your own. Your best bet is either getting ahold or learning to make nickel iron batteries, hacing a proper charger for them and doing a conversion on a very light and small car and run a 48 volt battery pack, it will have a low range compared to modern cards but it will be more than enough to putz around. Probably 30 miles or so maybe more. You can also build lead acid batteries. There is a book online called the battery builders. Thee author is a fruity nut but the book is very useful. Only goes a bit into plante style cells and mostly talks about making pasted cells. Plante cells are a lot easier to produce if you are limited in materials, they just take longer.
>>909202
Zimbabwe is just mild post apocalyptic.
If everything can be found in a factory somewhere or synthesized from materials that are lying around then it's just present day, not a post-apocalyptic scenario.
>>909355
>>909373
Use capacitors.
>>909351
given a postulated apocalypse, there will be many motors sitting around because no fuel, so ethanol may be worthwhile. The issue is you need to modify an engine to run on ethanol.
my suggestion for a car would be a recirculating steam car. takes like 30 minutes to start, but will burn anything that burns (even shitty chunky gas) and lasts for pretty much ever and is reasonably easy to fix. tends to be a little underpowered compared to gas cars, which is the other reason you don't see them much.
second option is wood gas, because it's pretty much a gas tank conversion. wood is too expensive a fuel when compared to current distribution systems of oil, but it is easily obtainable.
3rd is ethanol/methanol. again, you can make it yourself. will eventually fuck up all the rubber in your car, and can cause rust issues because it's always mixed with water (to get over 90% alcohol you need chemical dryers which would also fuck with the engine), but the kicker is you need to modify the engine to run with the ethanol, because you need more at a time to get the same power, so yeah. The upside is that if you're already making/distilling ethanol, you have trade goods.
also, your going to be better off if you focus on fuel for tractors/combines as opposed to fuel for a ford falcon to go scavenging in.
A horse, mule, or dog with packs are probably your go to for transportation that is easy and doesn't need maintenance. I'd also strongly consider a bicycle, since no gas, can outrun anything not motorized, little maintenance (if you carry spare tubes etc), and the roads would be in decent shape.
And >>909373 if you're talking 20 30 years out, you're also going to be having issues with rusting frames collapsing. Maybe cars that were in parking garages or house garages would be ok, but nothing on the street would be safe to drive.
Good luck finding full acetylene tanks or arc welding rods +power to weld together scavenged plumbing pipe for a new frame :/
>>909396
>Good luck finding full acetylene tanks or arc welding rods +power to weld together scavenged plumbing pipe for a new frame :/
Replace frame parts with American Hornbeam wood and drive a bit slower. Then again, I'd not be using a shitty heavy ass, fuel guzzling vehicle to drive around post-apoc.
So, either this type of thing,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQQzLMIXOJ0
or this,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG-Txe1uPoA
The issue with your question OP is formulation.
Post apocalyptic is too vague. Are we talking a massive plague that hits and kills people within 3 days?
You'd be set for fuel for life.
Series of natural disasters over three generations?
You're basically fucked for any easy fuel.
Regular gas starts going bad after about 6 months. There are fuel stabilizers you can to extend this some. Plus you can still get a usable material if you strain it properly. This would work fine if you were spoiled for cars. If you had the last running car around, then it might not be so good.
I grew up in farm land, we stored 6 months worth of gasoline and diesel on the farm for vehicles and equipment because driving a tractor 15 miles into town to fuel up is stupid. It also lets us hedge against higher gas prices some. So this is also actually a good protip for post apocalyptic scenario; farms (especially big ones) usually have a lot of fuel available on them. They also have guns (which they might use against you) and usually stock piled foods (We went shopping once a month growing up) not to mention the crops and animals.
Diesel will last a lot longer than gasoline and the engines are more forgiving. The older the better. My neighbor apparently ran an old tractor on an 80% alcohol mix during the fuel shortage in the 70s. If you try that with a modern diesel truck, it won't even start.
LPG is also a great fuel possibility. Schwan's (the people who deliver over priced frozen foods) and I'm sure some others switched to LPG engines during the fuel crisis and have run it ever since. UPS runs part of it's fleet on LPG too. I've never used it at all, but apparently it's actually a great fuel source, much lower emissions and less wear on engines.
Other options: #2 fuel oil is used for home heating. It can go directly into a diesel engine. Heavier fuel oils like #4 could be used if cut with kerosene (which is #1 fuel oil) same thing with #5 but with much more kerosene. Leave #6 alone.
Do propane tanks rust out because of the fuel?
>>909408
People have converted engines to run on Natural gas. I don't know anything about it though.
Places to find fuel: Any large complex (school, hospital, large apartment buildings, factories, ect) will have a storage tank for fuel oil, propane, or natural gas for heating. These tanks are also large enough to heat the places for 1-6+ months. Which means enough fuel for years unless you're going cross country.
Every places that operates forklifts has a locker with several tanks of LPG.
Airports: assuming everyone died off suddenly, small airports have enough gas on site for a single car to run for years, large commercial airports have fuel enough for you to run several lifetimes. Airplane fuel is highly refined and doesn't go bad like regular gasoline. Small planes often sit in a hangar for months at a time between uses. You'd probably want to cut it with something before using it in a car, but it would work pure.
Any place that operates a fleet of vehicles has gas or diesel on site. Bus garages, snow plow garage, large lawn service garages, places like that.
So I guess my plan if I survived the great plague that killed 99%+ of mankind within a week would be to drive to all of the auto stores and walmarts around and buy all of their fuel stablizer. Go to the nearest few gas stations and dump them in to their gasoline tanks in large numbers. This would probably provide me with stable gasoline for about a year before it started to turn to goop. I would locate start stockpiling LPG too since it can be used to heat, cook, run a vehicle, and generate electricity. I would also probably find some place that has a large number of solar panels and bring some electric cars there to keep them charged as backup vehicles.
I would also go to large facilities and turn off their heating systems so I could use their fuel oil to heat my house for several years.
Finding a tanker and filling it full of good fuel would probably be a good idea too.
>>909410
No, they rust out because they are empty and have some water in them.
>>909414
In theory, a full tank could last many, many years?
>>909418
Should, if filled properly there is very little moisture inside.
There are people using old ass tanks now that are 40+ years old.
>>909418
Unless it is in a highly corrosive environment. They rust from the outside too.
>>909418
Mine do. I have tanks that are over 20 years old and still hold pressure (90PSI).
I'm using them as portable airtanks now, not for fuel. They make great portable air for air tools, but don't last all that long obviously.
>>909422
I wonder if older designs are more robust than newer tanks? Like how most everything from 40 years ago is impressive at surviving while most things made last year are just trash? Then again pressurized fuel tanks are srsbns, but I bet they use less metal, just better design to stay within spec.
>>909424
Coat it with motor oil.
>>909377
we will never live in a post apocalyptic post 100% scavenged world. in all likely hood, we will be sent back to the turn of the 1900's technology wise, however with the added bonus of infrastructure underground is still there and possibly not damaged to badly
we would possibly repurpose copper lines to be telephone/telegraph instead of what they were actually for
we would also likely be using animals for a good while for transportation.
cars... if there are people in charge who know their shit they will martial law fuel for only the most important shit.
depending on how bad the apocalypse is, we may get a powerplant up and running and start the manufacture of more parts for more plants, and at that point electric cars are what you would want to get your hands on.
>>909145
Not to be a total cunt, but fuel vehicles that run on petrol are shit. I'm just going to put that out there. Vegetable oil, ethanol, wood, all terrible choices. Even biodiesel, alcohol and steam piston engines are terrible.
Why? Because there is one resource that will always be abundant on the planet, even if its nor drinkable, even if its irradiated, 'diluted', or even infested with parasites. Water.
Why water you might ask, how do you run an an engine on water? Electrolysis. run a current between two conductive plates, defuse the water into oxygen and hydrogen. run that hydrogen into a combustion engine, use it as fuel and laugh as the rest of the population is panicking when petrol runs out.
>>909440
you still need a power source to get that going, and im going to say you aren't getting the power required to do this efficiently in post apocalyptic scenarios easily at least if water torches are anything to go by.
>>909440
This doesn't actually work. The energy required to extract the hydrogen from the water is equal to or greater than the energy you get by recombining that hydrogen with oxygen in the engine.
"Water powered cars" are a long running, well known investor scam.
>>909387
Those last forever but have awful energy density, worse than lead acid. Too bad, otherwise they'd be perfect.
>>909447
No he means have a base station that generates hydrogen. You could scavenge a bunch of large solar cells and have them continuously generate hydrogen at your shelter.
The problem is that you have to be prepared for this ahead of time, it takes special high pressure equipment to compress enough of that hydrogen into a fuel tank.
>>909449
Also this has to be done properly with no room for error; if you accidentally compress any oxygen into the tank, the high pressure will break the activation barrier and cause a spontaneous explosion.
this guy know
>>909454
>no room for error
Let them live their pipe dream. They can hardly get up out of their mother's basement and they really expect to manage themselves in any kind of adverse scenario?
>>909440
>>909449
Guys, if the world's infrastructure collapses, lets abandon a fuel source we've used for hundreds of years that requires little understanding for a highly unstable fuel source that would require high end state-of-the-art plants to safely contain a gas that we have troubles containing now.
You are both idiots. Stop talking. People (who are far more intelligent than you) have tried to work out how to use water for power for years and none have been successful. This includes corporations and universities.
>>909470
>People (who are far more intelligent than you) have tried to work out how to use water for power for years and none have been successful. This includes corporations and universities.
http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/fuel-cell-technologies-office
>>909488
>http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/fuel-cell-technologies-office
Now is the point where you try to tell us all that hydrogen powered cars produce the hydrogen on-board via electrolysis.
Hydrogen is produced at a specialized plant, and stored in a highly specialized facility because normal means can't be used because hydrogen can escape regular gas cylinders.
Seems like a great idea for a bunch of random people with no knowledge to attempt.
>>909200
The generator at my house runs on propane. Probably wouldn't be hard to rig it up to a car
>>909506
I'm not that anon, I'm just point out something rather obvious. You can buy fuelcells online, fyi.
>>909506
>Seems like a great idea for a bunch of random people with no knowledge to attempt.
I remember noticing rags hanging out of the V8 interceptors rear right tire. Assuming they used what they can to give the tire some form so it can actually function a little. I find this scenario likely because who the hell is going to be making tires?
Now here we have a climate where people stuff their tires with rags. How the fuck are we going to maintain such a facility?
>>909506
I think this is the point where you show us how much you know about pretty much nothing at all. Lrn2google and stop wasting time.
I'd rather ride horses anyway.
>>909506
Fuck gaseous hydrogen; make hydrazine and catalyze it.
Hydrazine is even fairly easy to make. Normally it would be a bad idea because, well it's fucking hydrazine, but compared to gaseous hydrogen it's easy and safe.
>>909422
I've had mine for 25 years. Just give it a fresh coat of paint every couple years, and don't leave it out in the rain.
Awesome fellas, thanks.
Here's what I've gathered:
In the event that I'm the last human on earth:
All cars are fine. Use them for a couple years.
After a couple years, gas cars may be crap and batteries may start to be a bit tricky for cranking.
After 10 years, my electric cars may be a problem.
Propane cars and diesel cars should be fine, assuming I've been storing fuel well.
Assuming I'm one of a number of people left:
The same as above, but all those vehicles make noise, except the electric car. I'll be found and killed.
x00 years later:
Fuels are probably not worth it. Vehicles and engines are surely rotted out/rusted out so that they'd be worthless.
Just to guess, propane vehicles must make the same type of noise as other combustion engines, right?
I just want to point out that just because its the end of the world doesn't mean you can make your own gasoline. Gas refineries are actually pretty simple, plus oil wells can pump with solar or another energy source, it is possible with the collective effort of a group to make gasoline or diesel.
>>909567
Honestly with high octane gas or good diesel your main concern is stock piling. The most successful group is the smart organized one. Find a remote spot of land, one with a capped or open natural gas well, for less than 100 homes, they would last hundreds of years. Thats free heat, refrigeration (gas fridges last for centuries, servels are still working), gas lights if you choose, electric etc. Granted you can't rely on a generator to run 24/7 forever. A mix of hydro, solar with NG back up would be unbeatable, no limit of luxuries or power. You can also find NG powered cars and trucks in the oil fields. My neighbor owns one, pumps NG from a capped well and drives cheap. You really dont want to be on the move all the time and on the road in a mad max style world. The first 10 years you concentrate on stock piling important things for your community. Building materials, tools, food, heavy duty machinery in good order, weapons, ammo and building the proper storage and structures to protect them. A organized walled city powered by solar, hydro and NG with fields of food being grown and multiple warehouses and underground refrigerators for food storage. With the right amount of labor you need to think bigger. Long term requires more than subsistence farming and stock piling. Also some serious fucking, dem kids man. Need them.
>>909571
As I'm the OP, I'd be happy to see this thread end as I got my info. However, I'm happy to see it move to how to survive in that sort of scenario.
I, for one, don't think a walled city is of much use in a world where weapons are available. MY thought is that a few families can live with us at our farm, int he middle of nowhere, that doesn't make noise or smoke. Any gunshots are potential harbingers of death, as are engines or woodfires. It certainly depends on how many people are around.
After ten years the roads will be impassable to majority of vehicles, best learn to ride a horse.
>>909603
I dunno, a wall has its uses, especially if you are remote to begin with. Prevents an easy sneak attack, also with proper foliage it would not be easily spotted. You could power it with DC electric fences and solar/hydro power them for added defense, like a red snapper, a bull fence. Add some metal spikes on the edge pointing down and scaling it is impossible. A good concrete wall or a mix of concrete wood beams and dirt would be a great barrier. Patrol it daily with heavy weapons and not many raider groups would want to tangle with you.
A good water source and power source are mandatory. If you can't get free gas, find a good spring and a river. unlimited water. Hell you can use water wheels to do all kinds of work, even refrigeration.
>>909618
no, roads are actually very durable. Oil, gas and heavy vehicles cause the wear and tear you see very year. With low traffic, they would remain useful for years. Maybe not perfect but you could at least do 30 mph.
>>909567
Electric motors last forever if kept clean. There are century old electric streetcars still in use with the original motors.
The problem is batteries. The only new batteries you could plausibly make would be lead acid. Those are easy, it's why Chinese ebikes use 'em.
Lead acid sucks. The range is poor (50 miles max, with the largest/heaviest practical pack size for a sedan) the speed is poor (60-70mph max, due to the weight) and the lifespan is at most 5 years. As little as 2 if you run them to empty frequently.
It's doable, but you'll miss the days of liquid hydrocarbon fuels.
>>909628
Nickel iron batteries are a thing to consider, also you can make both yourself. Look up a book on amazon called the battery builds and a Plante cell. Lead acid can last in the case of a plante cell and nickel iron batteries are as robust as they come (they are not as energy dense as lead acid), you may have to part with the idea of an electric sedan and make way with the idea of a light weight pipe buggy thats good for 40-60 miles or embrace a trike or electric bike/velomobile. Personal transport is easy. Moving 4 tons of heavy shit though takes resources. We invented trains and trucks for a reason.
>>909631
fuck im bad at typing today, battery builders.
Nickel iron batteries are a bit tricky but if you can nickel plate, have some pool cleaner and black nickel oxide your pretty much set.
>>909218
Trans fluid and the like don't really disintegrate; they're meant to hold up under extreme conditions and actually have a lot of additives to clean the parts they come into contact with.
For lighter fuels like gasoline you run into two problems - the lighter volatiles evaporate, leaving a less burnable mixture, and impurities will separate out and form a varnish. Avgas and the like are refined to the point where the later isn't much of an issue. Diesel itself would last forever, but needs to be in a completely moisture-free environment or treated with algicides.
>>909626
>Drains block.
>Soil deposits.
>Vegetation grows and spreads.
Who do you think is going to trim back all the hedgerows, unblock the drains, sweep away the dirt?
Why not a multifuel diesel like in the duce and a half? These things can run on lots of fuels. Diesel, gas, motor oil, hydraulic fluid, power steering fluid, transmission fluid, kerosene, jp5, jp8 etc. Get a bobbed version to make it easier to handle. Set up properly one of these trucks can run underwater, and with massive ground clearance you could run over most things that get in your way.
>>909649
>On average, most operators experience tank averages of 8–10 mpg-US (29–24 L/100 km; 9.6–12.0 mpg-imp) for an unladen vehicle.
Be the biggest target in the world with a loud, rare, valuable military vehicle?
>>909649
Why hasn't anyone made a nice smaller engine like that for a little hatch back, or at least a light pick up.
Would love to be able to choose what fuel I wanted to use for the week.
>>909659
I can see the biggest target gripe, but you could easily make this beast bullet proof.
As to the fuel economy that is also true. The stock tank holds 50 gallons. Add a 200 gallon tank, keep it topped off and no problem.
I agree it will be loud
Rare? Nope... Valuable?? Nope... you can find these things for under 3k USD all day long.
>>909667
I'm not sure about a hatchback, but you might be able to convert a VW TDI to multifuel with cargene free valves.
There is a multi fuel motorcycle out there, but they cost over 18k USD, which is way too much.
>>909644
Not to mention clear the 100s of storm downed trees every year.
>>909644
you would and any locals. If its a common route, you or an affiliated group would at least mow it and drop some patching tar on it. Didn't say last forever or pristine, said it would last longer than 10 years and be usable. You would be surprised the damage oil and gas does to a road. A minor leak in a car can easily start a pot hole in a matter of days. heavy trucks do serious damage as well.
This thread has me thinking of long term refrigeration. On a small and large scale. You would need an underground room, the temperatures required would make it mandatory. Ultra thick insulation. The only thing I got my nuts in a twist about is how to run the compressor and where to get the parts. Commercial equipment could be salvaged but commercial runs on AC and requires frequency to be maintained. Very few DC powered fridges exist and those that do are rare, small and expensive. What if you used a car or truck air conditioning system? Ripped the guts out and ran it off a water wheel?
>>909659
thats assuming multiple things.
A. They have any idea of its rare and unique fuel properties
B. The posses vehicles fast enough to stop you (unless they have a road block)
Also its noise is relative. A diesel truck is loud up close but its not something you can hear for miles (jake braking faggots the exception), the noise is still relative to how fast it moves and acceleration. Half mile away you might not even notice.
C.
I happen to live in a rural area with a major natural gas pipeline just half a mile from my house and my house and generator also run on the stuff. So I would probably just tap into that and live off of whatever is left in it.
>>909689
I bet you could find dc fridges in an rv.
Watch Mad Max 3.
There is your answer.>>909145
>>909705
small ones, also they tend to be expensive.
Looting one of course is entirely possible but in the end of the world situation, small scale will only get you so far. A bad harvest could be off set with serious food storage. I own an old servel fridge, if i couldn't find a capped well (not entirely sure what would happen to the gas company, pretty sure the wells themselves maintain line pressure) I would use wood to heat up the generator box and make ice.
We'll develop a process(es) to rapidly obtain biofuels from organic matter before we give up on the internal combustion engine. We'll get to the point where we're able to grow and harvest the fuel. We'll populate deserts with trees on steroids, cover continents in green flora, supplement the earth with nutrients, and harvest it all. Then we'd do it again, and again, and make fuel out of it.
Oil might run out, but we'll find explosive shit to spray into a cylinder.
>>909689
Modern refrigeration isn't needed at all. You are not keeping ice cream. You'll be using all the older, longer used methods of food preservation.
>>909145
HDPE Destructive distillation/pyrolysis seriously; all the ethylene gas you would want only. Ether ethylene, propane, all the alkenes. One of my goals is setting up an ethylene gas generator off of polyethylene plastics and having all the gas i need for torch work.
>>909728
Zeer pots are useless in anywhere but the desert, a root cellar is a good start for vegatables but they wont last near as long as you want. Plus meat wont last. You need something COLD and SEALED for long term wet food preservation. A freezer is invaluable, the larger the better, only a matter of how much power it takes and how much you can make.
>>909730
So something like a wood-gas generator only filled with scrap plastic? Sounds promising enough to at least cover some gaps. I guess it would produce toxic sludge as a byproduct instead of charred wood but it's a big ol' world after the apocalypse. Probably cleaner than burning plastic in a steam engine (though maybe the pucks or buckets of left-over materials could be burned in a fairly hot furnace as part of a heating or power system)
>>909145
Wood stove runs a generator "final video" make's …: http://youtu.be/_o5M6v1eD4I
Something along these lines built into an armoured RV would do well in a caravan with others.
>>909519
Are you not paying attention to what people post anon? Hydrogen is a terrible idea.
>>909520
Adding an extra step seems like a good idea. Let me go take a quick survey on the street about how many people know how to make hydrazine. Spoiler: It will be zero. Thus making it totally useless.
>>909603
It all depends on what would happen. If 99% of the world just died. There wouldn't be a shortage of most things. People would coexist fine.
>>909618
Roads last a LONG time anon. Look at the roads near Chernobyl for reference.
>>909747
If you aren't trolling then I recommend you schedule a health check, you may have a brain tumour.
>>909626
Not here in the great frozen north they're not. Even rarely-traveled backroads are damn near destroyed after a decade or so. The freeze/thaw cycle tends to do that.
>>909649
Deuces are nice, anything you can't go over or around, you can go through.
Knocked over many a tree as a driver in the Army.
The only problems are that they're noisy as hell, Gigantic, and the listed fuel efficiency is for new engines running good-quality diesel, without a significant load. Anything else will lower the fuel efficiency by as much as 30%-40%.
>>909747
>Let me go take a quick survey on the street about how many people know how to make hydrazine.
Bleach + Ammonia
I'm not even kidding; sodium hypochlorite reacts with the ammonia to give hydrazine & hydrogen chloride.
Sodium hypochlorite is easy enough to make, too: just electrolyse salt water and combine the resulting sodium hydroxide and chlorine.
It's actually quite simple. The only real problem is that the simple methods are also massively inefficient.
>>909750
Way to add nothing to conversation.
>>909827
Do you see how in a society where the bulk of people with a post high school education, let alone people with a decent grasp of chemistry, has died off, this might be a bad idea.
Do you also see how this knowledge has a very high chance of being all but lost? The internet will cease to exist shortly enough making rapid searches impossible. Libraries will exist but I can tell you people won't be in the chemistry section, looking up how to synthesize hydrogen for fuel.
>>909513
>I'm not that anon, I'm just point out something rather obvious. You can buy fuelcells online, fyi.
Seems pretty helpful in the event of a country/worldwide collapse. Also they things you plug into your cigarette lighter to "align the electrons" and improve fuel economy. Let me know how those work chief.
To all of the people with a hardon for hydrogen, you've clearly never worked with the gas.
Hydrogen and helium can escape ANYTHING. They can literally pass through solid steel because of their molecular density.
This happens at a low rate when they are stored in purpose built vacuum flasks and kept under cryogenic conditions.
For helium this just contributes to out helium crisis but poses little risk to health since it is non-reactive and occurs in generally low concentrations.
Hydrogen is of much greater risk since, it is highly reactive. What can, and has, happen is that the gas will escape the tanks into a non-ventilated area and cause a large enough buildup to ignite.
The real issue here is that given OP's scenario of the world collapsing, the cryogenic cooling systems on these facilities would fail causing the liquids to start to boil off and assume a gaseous state. In a gaseous state the escape of hydrogen occurs much faster.
The beauty of hydrogen is that same property also makes it unlikely to cause a large buildup of gas in any structure.
Now, the real danger of this scenario isn't existing storage facilities. (Granted one could argue that tank detonation is very possible due to a lack of any upkeep on the storage facilities. At some point the tanks or piping would fail and the failure could cause ignition.) The real danger would be in John Doe deciding to generate and compress his own hydrogen into gas cylinders. It would end poorly. Luckily even John Doe remembers the Hindenburg and isn't stupid enough to try this.
Hydrogen fuel cell technology exists and has for some time. Hydrogen and oxygen combine in the fuel cell to create electricity which powers an electric motor.
These vehicles are very rare and the pumping stations are very more rare. Which makes that essentially a non option. It is also not something that can be cobbled together in your garage without power by John Doe.
I used to work with compressed gases, AMA.
>>909861
>Libraries will exist but I can tell you people won't be in the chemistry section, looking up how to synthesize hydrogen for fuel.
I guess the stupid ones won't be. Personally I would; in just a handful of processes I can create sodium hypochlorite, hydrochloric acid and chlorine, all of which are useful in their own right, and then I can produce hydrazine and use that instead of dicking about with gaseous hydrogen.
However you seem to have very set ideas of what will happen in a post-apocalyptic society; this reminds of another thread on a different board...
>>909875
Op set the parameters.
Hydrogen is a poor fuel choice if alternatives exist. A high school chemistry student can tell you this.
You seem to be the one making wild assumptions here. We have evidence of what happens when there is massive civil unrest.
What doesn't happen: people setting up state of the art chem labs to produce hydrogen gas, people using the time to visit the library to read books, people trying to make less efficient fuels out of vital, valuable, resources (bleach is a very good disinfectant)
What does happen: people setting up nigger rigged stills to make alcohol, people burning anything they can (read as books) for fuel to stay alive in the winter, people killing their neighbor to steal a couple canisters of propane.
OP's question was about the shelf life of standard fuels, and how to increase it. He clearly stated that he didn't want info on how to retrofit vehicles so they can use other fuels.
>>909911
>bleach is a very good disinfectant
Exactly why it'd be useful to know how to make some, don't you think?
>>909980
Yeah, and there's no point in wasting massive amounts of it on making highly toxic, corrosive fuel at comically low yield. Doubly so, when there are much easier ways of making fuels.
>>909986
Exactly.
Damn children trying to argue, just to argue.
Ass power.
>>909980
I found this out the other day. I have a steamer in my room that uses two 120v leads in water about an inch apart. Someone told me salt makes them steamier so i put some in (alot actually). My house lights started dimming and a thick bleach scented steam came out
>>909736
>So something like a wood-gas generator only filled with scrap plastic?
Exactly, in essence by keenly managing heat and pressure into the system, you could theoretically harvest ethylene gas or what ever constituent gas from the polymer itself may be HDPE, HDPP, into Ethylene, Propane, Butane, etc. If the temperature is to high as well as pressure; you risk completely disassociating monomers (individual particles within the polymer) into their constituent's (Hydrogen, Carbon Monoxide and CO2), but it can be made. Take in mind that these plastics are very dense therefore a lot of gas can be transported and used in very practical terms.
Woodgas
>>910415
>thiskillsthesteamer
Steam power seems the most logical solution here assuming you can't get diesel ,seems relatively easy to make a steam engine especially when all the parts are available around you.
>>909145
Why do post-apocalyptic humans never think to use a bike. You can do 100 miles in a day on a good bike you know.
>>910744
Or just get a horse
>>910747
You dont have to feed bicycles
>>910748
True.
But can you ride your bicycle through a river?
>>910744
because it doesn't look cool
that's pretty much it really
pre WWII (before heavy motorisation) there were entire bicycle infantry units that included special machinegun and anti-tank rifle mounts on the bikes
no war movie, show, game or book (aside from actual historical ones) ever mentioned them ever
>>910764
pic
>>910764
>Having acorn "war" with friends
>Historyfag so know the advantage of mobility
>Tell my team to bring bicycles
>Constantly surround enemy
>They surrender after like an hour
I got hit in the eye with an acorn though. Sight was fucked for a week.
luckily in an apocalypse you won't need to worry about pollution
>>910744
That's my plan, actually. Use a car to get to my bug out location of choice, then bike everywhere I need from there, barring some kind of emergency or other reason I need to use a heavy vehicle.
And don't forget bicycles can out ride tanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLlv05Htz38
This apocalyptic scenario played out not too long ago. 1800's western migration. People with only basic common sense and lots of folksy / religious 'wisdom' jump in a wagon, find themselves in exactly the same situation as you be in when the shit his the fan. I would study their situation as much as possible if you want to be prepared.
Keep an eye on their priorities, and the complicated sorts of situations you get in to when you cross paths or decide to cohabitate with others. Some people end up in the slave/servant/whore/farm animal role, other people supervise.
I would stock up on ingenuity and knowledge. It's the give a man a fish / teach him to fish thing. Plus, you can use that shit up to and after the apocalypse that isn't coming arrives or doesn't arrive. And oh yeah, get some guns, brewers yeast, and lots of analog porn like magazines, those will be your venture capital.
>>910764
>no war movie, show, game or book (aside from actual historical ones) ever mentioned them ever
go and watch Rukajärven tie (1999)
Woodgas Tank
>>910744
Every time I mention using a bicycle in a zombie apoc thread I always got laughed at. At the very least, the bike can help you carry shit as you walk along side it. I mean damn. Even if you have a vehicle, you can have a bike too.
>>910764
>no war movie, show, game or book (aside from actual historical ones) ever mentioned them ever
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoBikesInTheApocalypse
There's some zombie movie where someone was using a bike. There's also Turbo Kid where everyone uses bicycles as a way of life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh23-rQUi5U
>>910851
People don't think. Sure, a bike would be useless (like most cars) in the heart of a shoulder-to-rotting-shoulder swarm of zombies but everywhere else it would give you the speed and mobility to stay out of those swarms. Also very useful for every other kind of apocalypse outside of biblical and astronomical.
Apocalypse just isn't the same without a bike
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jMoB8gEWf1U
>>910850
Making usable fuel would be pretty easy too.
fueling a vehicle would be easy.
eventually motor oil would be hard to come by, and non petroleum natural oils wouldn't hold up as well as they have a lower smoke point.
tires are what concerns me, they have a shelf life, after some time they all would have rotted. i guess you could make wooden wheels for your ride though.
if you get a hold of the right vehicles you don't have to worry about batteries, just pop start it. though batteries aren't that hard to make if you have access to the right materials but they wouldn't be at todays quality.
Bikes, bike all the way. Light enough to carry anywhere you cannot ride it, you can fit an amazing amount of luggage on them, virtually all terrain, easy to maintain and repair, hell even losing the tyre merely slows you down a little and meens getting a new wheel a few dozen to a hundred miles down the line. And most modern bike wheels are built of alumimium and stainless steel. Ive seen bikes left in sheds since the 1980's restored to full working order after a few hours work in a 'shop - been there done that, watched the old guys face light up with delight at seeing his racer restored. And all you need in fuel is ehatever you can eat.
While you cycle you are also building and strengthening the muscles that support and protect your knees, meaning if you are forced to abandon your bike for whatever reason, you have the endurance, stamina and knee fitness to run for miles. Fifty miles a day is a breeze for someone as unfit as i am, after a few weeks of cycling everywhere, a hundred miles a day cross country will be more than possible, although your carrying capacity or route will need to be balanced.
Forget fuels. Get a bike.
>>909177
Sulfuric acid synthesis is not actually that complicated, what you need can be sourced from the earth. It's just a matter of extracting and purifying these raw materials to get a half decent product.
Burn sulfur with saltpeter (potassium nitrate, KNO3), mix gases with steam from boiling water. Filter out solids and concentrate your sulfuric acid by boiling. Can improve the process by lining the boiling chamber with lead plates. They made sulfuric acid for hundreds of years using this method.
Or you could, y'know scavenge some from the millions now unused of lead acid batteries. Not to mention chemical labs, pharmacies, etc.
>>911321
tires can last a long time properly stored. Hell vacuum seal them in a cool dry room and it should last longer than you.
>>911382
If you live in the US stock up on tires and tubes. No domestic manufacturing, stock piles are not what they used to be, stores empty fast.
Jussayin
>>909243
No, over time bacteria can convert ethanol to acetic acid (vinegar), if the container is not well sealed, and humidity and oxygen get into the container.
This is normally not a problem with relatively pure ethanol/hard liquor, because the high concentration kills the bacteria. If not sealed properly, the alcohol will begin to evaporate; the ratio of water increases, and oxygen will seep in causing bacteria to convert the remaining ethanol to vinegar.
Not sure exactly what concentration this can occur at. A 70%/30% mix of alcohol/water is the ideal antibiotic ratio. So acetic acid bacteria would start grwoing once the fuel was somewhere below 70% (140 proof) ethanol.
http://youtu.be/4i3-w6MZP1U
This guy made a stove that produces propane-like gas, oil, and heat.
>>911664
He's the guy with the exoskeleton suit he's been developing. Though, I think his Wimshurst generator is cooler really. He has loads of gassifier vids too.
>>911418
you are correct with properly stored tires lasting a long while, but who actually stores tires like that.
i'm not sure about vacuum sealing, it would depend on the setup. if it was in a large vacuum sealer bag your going to have a fun time just trying to set the bead due to them warping without a large amount of tire goop. something rigid would be okay.
personally if i was preparing for the world going to hell i would go with them in a corrosion resistant air tight container that was purged with nitrogen.
i think the UK has laws that state tires older than 6 years old can't be sold as new tires.
not really on topic, but TV shows and movies that deal with some type of collapse usually make me laugh due to tires on alloy rims still being inflated after years of sitting, and the fuel system isn't gummed up due to the gasoline turning to varnish.
>>909243
gasoline isn't that long, the stuff they sell in NY state on a humid day in an open container gets cloudy in 30 minutes. every gasoline stabilizer i've used has to be re-added every year or else it breaks down and turns to varnish. there are also types of algae that consume petroleum products too. old fuel oil (basically diesel) tanks acquire sludge in them thats not from impurities in the fuel itself, but from algea.
>>911657
i know home brew alcohol around 20% or 40 proof can still be converted into acetic acid.
>>911382
>Fifty miles a day is a breeze for someone as unfit as i am
Without a load it may be, but with a load 50-60 miles a day is about the limit for most people. 100 miles a day is damn near impossible with a load unless you've got enough amphetamines in your system to kill a horse.
80 miles in a day with a loaded pack is force-march territory, and it's fucking exhausting.
>>911804
>the stuff they sell in NY state on a humid day in an open container gets cloudy in 30 minutes
What?
Make one of these b boys
>>911956
Anyone built something like this? Or seen any build thread with something similar?
>>909567
Steam is silent. You should see the steam cars on Jay Leno's Garage. Finicky, but functional, silent, and high on torque.
I'm not saying it would be practical, as building one would require a lot of time and resources, but they would be optimal given the concerns you've raised.
>>911956
>not shaft-driven
Is shit
>>911890
since they switched to ethanol instead of methanol, gasoline absorbs moisture more easily and become cloudy.
Methane can be harvested from a range of sources.
>>909165
Nah son sugar cane, sorghum and sugar beets.
>>911956
>Hydraulic brakes
>Adjustable DNM Shocks/Adjustable DNM Forks
Things I'd love to fix when they break down after the apocalypse.
>Any clean unleaded gasoline with a pump rating of 86 octane or higher.
>This engine is not designed to use E-85 Ethanol Blended Fuels.
>Never use stale or contaminated gasoline, or gasoline that has been mixed with oil.
>MOTOPED® recommends changing the engine oil every 20 hours of use for optimum performance.
>15W-40 motorcycle specific engine oil.
Meh. At least you can pedal it I guess.
>>911971
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUg_ukBwsyo
>>912013
Yeah but about disregarding whole apocalypse thing and just having it for cheap transport? Would be ok i think
>>912022
Of course.
>>911868
>12/07/15
Your milage would vary depending on fitness levels, i would be curious what kind of milage the tourer cycles get. Camping gear, food, clothing all on panniers along with spares and tools, and ive seen them crawling all over scotland in all but icy/snowy weather. I would expect someone at peak fitness (or for that matter with high motivation to get as far as possible in a day) to manage a good percentage of 100 miles in a day - achieve an average of 10mph for 10 hours? Do-able in summer, maybe half that in winter if at all. Run a lighter load or know that a safe place is up ahead so you dont need the camping gear weight, and you can get 15-20 mph average.
>>912230
Oh, you mean on a bike? Yeah, you could do 100 in a day easily enough. Doing it with a loaded bike would be harder, but if you're in good shape I can't imagine it'd be too hard.
I thought you still meant on foot.
>>911984
Not that part.
I was more what-ing at
>the stuff they sell in NY state in an open container
>>911971
I'm a steam boiler operator.
The nice thing about it is that the system is fairly simple. Obviously Dobel's had a very complex system. However I could weld a small boiler (Which you can find all over) onto a car chassis and basically make it go with a steam wheel design.
It wouldn't go fast but as long as I had something combustible and clean-ish water, it would go. Plus as you said, they have a ton of torque. So I could haul a large trailer if I needed to.
>>912247
as in gasoline bought in NY state stored in an something like a bucket without a lid?
>>912245
Longer and more weight with a trike, even more so with a recumbent trike. Look up velo mobiles. A few small batteries, maybe even nickel iron batteries and a flexible solar panel or two and you have something with range and the ability to get up a hill. With the right build you could even carry 100-200 lbs of gear. Think of something like the ELF but maybe lower to the ground with a bit more battery and motor.
>>912251
How hard and safe would it be to make a simple steam engine? Does anyone sell a semi cheap one? Would like to fine one to run a alternator.
>>912536
They are really easy to make. The main thing is how big do you want it, how hot do you want it to get, etc. Try playing around making simple stuff first to gain more knowledge. Start with say a put-put boat or a pop-can Sterling Engine then move onto pistons that are steam driven and scale up.
>>912571
Probably 5 hp but how safe are they?
>>912574
Which? Steam is as safe as anything else. If you build something incorrectly and are next to it when it blows up or when liquid fuel catches fire and blows up, you're screwed. It is the same level of safety as anything with an engine that you DIY yourself.
>>912536
It's a mixed bag.
They're not easy to make by any means, but much easier than building your own internal combustion engine. Really depends on your skill set.
I know some pipe fitters who just built a small boiler. Like 5 ft^3. It took three of them like 100+ hours to build it and they're all pipe fitters by trade.
With ready made parts, it is doable. It won't be cheap or legal though. A lot of places require you to have a license to operate a boiler and it will have to be inspected before you use it.
End of the world scenario, you want into any school, hospital, large apartment complex, factory, or power plant and you have pretty much every part you need. Only issue is that you'd need to make your own firebox as the ones for buildings are fuck huge.
If you want some examples of how easy it can be, just look up old steam engine trains, farm equipment, and factory equipment.
>>912574
When steam boilers fail, they fail with a bang.
Look at some pictures of steam explosions.
With modern boilers it's a tiny possibility since they have multiple redundancies.
Almost all explosions are because water wasn't getting to the fire box.
It all depends on the size of the boiler too. If a power plant fails catastrophically, it will take out block. If the one in your basement fails, it might take out some of your floor. If a scale model of a train fails it might burn your hand. Ignoring shrapnel of course.
majority of steam engine I've seen in action have a high brake down rate, it's all the moving parts.
>>912664
I know exactly which I'd rather be next to when it failed.
>>909486
If you have the certainty of it starting on the very first crank.
Methane, Syngas and Biocrude
>>912686
Yeah, the big problem is the fuel source of any vehicle blowing up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgeBeuqnxIU
Steam tanks themselves aren't nearly as big a problem as their fuel source is if it exploded and wasn't just woodchips.
>>909706
>basing life decisions off of a movie
Fucking pleb
>>909145
Gasifier... Incredibly easy to build.
>>909165
If you distill alcohol remember to reuse the biomass left over for animal feed it's called distillers grains and still has all the nutrients a cow can digest
>>913249
His pipe dream doesn't involve livestock
>>909145
If it's a bullshit stupid zombie apocalypse like walking dead, I yoke up 30 zombies and have them tow me around.
>>913262
What movie was it that used zombies in a hamster wheel electric generator?
>>913244
Is it? Thought it was a lot more involved.
>>913288
Honestly a giant wheel connected to a large fly wheel and pulley system to increase the rpm for an alternator would be the easiest long term solution for power. You could use horses or mules or even a bit of human power in groups. A human is capable on average of producing 50-100 watts. A horse likely 500 or so. A team of horses or mules running this mill could easily power a small battery based system.
