Break down the good and bad of Batman v Superman - Dawn of Justice!
THE POOR & BAD
>The "Martha" name drop was a weak reason for them to stop fighting (altho personally I think Ben sold it emotionally)
>Lex being written as a mix of Gene Hackman + the 50s/60s mad scientist Lex rather then any modern incarnation of the character was a mistake IMO.
>Lex spazing out at his gala was annoying, I preferred if he had more public charisma that he seemed to have had during his introduction scene.
>Lex's motivation is a bit unclear beyond wanting to perminately stain Superman's reputation.
>I wish Superman & Batman had a actual conversation when Clark wrecks his car before getting to "The bat is dead" ultimatum.
>I wish we got Clarity on whether or not Clark had actually killed the dictator at the beginning who was holding Lois hostage, he says he didn't kill anyone to Lois later on but, him slamming the guy thru 3 walls makes that unrealistic.
>Wish Clark had got more happy scenes prior to the senate bombing. Him, Lois & Martha having dinner would have been nice and have added to the ladies interaction at the end of the film.
>They really should not have cut out the communion scene for the theatrical cut.
>No real reason for Lois to have thrown the spear in the pool beyond wanting to make it harder to recover for the wrong hands that may come for it.
>Clark being non communicative with the public seems at odds with his place at the end of MOS. It seems regressive in character development.
>Clark should have tried to reason with Bruce again after the first does of Kryptonite wore off.
>The JL cameos are a bit ill placed in the film.
To be continued...
>>82439981
THE GOOD & GREAT
>Ben is the best live action Bruce & Batman we have ever gotten in live action.
>Him rescuing Martha is the best Batman fight scene we have ever gotten in live action.
>Irons is a fantastic Alfred & has damn good interaction with Ben.
>Opening with Bruce's view of the events of Man of Steel are fantastically done.
>Appreciated that they showed that Clark has learned from his battle with Zod in that this time, he took Doomsday out into space almost immediately.
>Strongly liked Clark's 2 sacrificial moments with him holding on to Doomsday even after seeing the nuke coming & the 2nd being the ending obviously.
>In the comics Superman's death served no purpose beyond publicity, here It furthers his story in that it sets in stone that his intent towards humanity was good and noble this whole time and that humanities paranoia about him while logical was unfounded.
>Outfit design is great for the trinity.
>Gal is serviceably good up until she enters the battle with Doomsday at which point she becomes awesome.
>Zimmer's score is good with a few great points, not as good a score as his Man of Steel work but still solid.
>Amy Adams continues to be the best Lois Lane we have gotten movie-wise in that she is the most subtle, the best reporter and the least hysterical or bitchy of the bunch.
>>82439997
More Good & Great aspects...
>Jesse was good for what they chose to do with this incarnation of Lex regardless if what they chose to do was a good or bad creative choice.
>People have bitched about the CGI for Doomsday but it looked good to me.
>Liked that he grew spikes as the battle progressed (wish they took that further)
>The senate hearings pointed out the events that followed in the wake of Superman saving Lois in Africa showing why Superman in the comics tries to stay out of Geopolitics.
>The Electronic voice modulator is much much better then Bale's Bat Voice.
>The piss jar and Senate explosion scene I expected to be horrible but actually ended up being pretty tense.
>Aquaman looks awesome.
>The moment when the first dose of Kryptonite wears off right when Bruce is punching Clark in the face is priceless.
>>82439981
>The "Martha" name drop was a weak reason for them to stop fighting
Nigga do you even Hypercrisis?
So basically the big mistake WB made was making Batman v Superman and they should've just made another Batman solo movie.
>>82440013
???
I've seen this brought up a lot, that Bruce is a retard because he didn't make the connection between White Portugese being a boat not a man.
Like, you all get that Bruce knew that right? That the whole reason he was chasing this lead is because he wanted to hijack Luthor's shipment and was lying to Alfred the entire time. That's why Alfred was mad at him.
Like I understand this movie is fucking bizarre as shit, but it blows my mind how many people seem to think this wasn't the case.
>>82439981
Why do people hate Lois throwing away the spear so much?
>>82440094
I didn't hate it at all, people seem to think it was redundant and done just so she would need saving again.
I pretty much forgive it as her running back to get it was pretty tense and urgent, Superman passing out while trying to retrieve it shows how effective it is and lastly it lead to the "this is my world, your my world... I love you" line which I adored.
>>82440094
Lois throwing the spear away was fine. It was killing her husband, why the fuck wouldn't you throw it away?
Also the obvious visual and thematic ties to Excalibur that the entire movie is focused about.
Lois instinctively knowing to grab it is fine too, considering she has no real reason to know that Kryptonite is only specifically harmful against just kryptonians, and would only see it as a weapon that's powerful enough to stop the most powerful man in the world.
It's a little contrived, but it absolutely is not the gaping plot people make it out to be.
>>82440094
I think Batman could have done it, since he throws it anyway. It would have saved time.
I don't know anything about the Arthur myth though so probably I'm missing something.
I can't wait till someone edits it into a better movie
I'm trying on a cam version, but I'm garbage and I know someone else will do a better job.
My idea was to cut out most of the superman parts until the they fight. Before then, he shows up at the "bat is dead" scene and through clips on tv. We are seeing supes through Bruce's and the worlds eyes, so it's easier to understand what Bruce is doing and you actually root for him during the fight. I do think the the "save Martha" bit goes over better when no one got to really see superman or knows that his mom was kidnapped. It's a bigger transition seeing him in a more human light because the audience only ever saw him as an alien invader who could snap(necks) at any moment
>>82439981
Short ears on the cowl are a definite negative. Affleck was already fat and the short ears made him look even more comical
>Amy Adams is the best Lois Lane
>>82440872
Only in straight on shots.
>>82440894
Kidder & Bosworth do not have a SINGLE thing over Adams.
>>82440894
>in that she is the most subtle, the best reporter and the least hysterical or bitchy of the bunch.
I sort of agree with OP.
>>82440954
>>82439981
So you're saying she's good because she barely resembles a character?
>She's smart and makes the plot go foward
>>82440094
because people are dumb and just want to hate the movie at this point
There were lots of problems with the movie, but this scene really wasnt one of them.
>>82439981
>the good
it was a pretty good take on putting actual super heroes in the real world and making them have actual human emotions
>the bad
superheroes dont work in the real world and dont work when they have actual human emotions
Honestly I dont think a DC movie could really work, the characters are too "godlike" if you get what I'm saying, where as Marvels are more realistic.
>>82441087
Being hysterical, bitchy and incompetent isn't a necessary part of her character.
Tas is proof of this.
>>82441133
>superheroes dont work in the real world and dont work when they have actual human emotions
Ultimates 1-2, Supreme Power, TDKR Earth One and the Nolan bat trilogy disagrees.
>>82441150
I'm not really talking about how the character of Lois Lane should be adapted (and where was she ever hysterical? I can't recall such a version that i know of), i'm saying DCEU Lois Lane has no damn character, works as a plot device more than anything
Yes, i agree TAS' Lois has more personality than the DCEU's
>>82441133
BvS tries to keep the cake and eat it too
Half the movie is this failed pseudo-philosophical exploration of a superman's role in the world and the other half is "ROCK MUSEEK, XPLOSIONS, UGLY CG CREATURE TO PUNCH TO DEATH, AINT THESE SUPERHEROES COOL PLS BUY TICKETS FOR JL OR BATMAN WILL BE RAPED IN PRISON"
>>82441133
>Honestly I dont think a DC movie could really work, the characters are too "godlike" if you get what I'm saying, where as Marvels are more realistic.
Thor, a founding avenger, is literally a god.
Nice bait though.
>>82441254
And the problem with his movies is, that he is not god enough
Maybe Snyder should have made Thor movies.
>>82440051
basically yeah. they put superman on the sidelines to try and hype up Batman. in the end it makes Batman look great and Superman is just there because his name is in the title
>>82441212
>and where was she ever hysterical?
Kidder was constantly crying and being over the top and pulling off slap stick bullshit like throwing herself off a bridge and burning Clark just to see if he is Superman.
>>82441254
Originally he was a doctor that just got the powers of one. I know that you may not realize this being from /tv/ and all but historically DC Comics were the one with the uncompromisingly good icons and Marvel Comics were the one where the ones where everyone had flaws and neuroses and the civilians were assholes.
>>82441150
There's more to her character than being a reporter that fucks Superman. And yes, part of that is what you construe as "bitchiness".
>>82440094
As a character decision it's fine, but for the filmmakers to introduce a problem simply so the characters can solve it 10 minutes later seems sloppy to me. Especially when you're deep in the third act
>>82441439
>SLAPSTICK CAMP SILLY BABY GARBAGE
Dude grow up already. You've been whining about this shit for three years now
>>82441246
There is nothing inherently opposing by doing epic action in a realistically built up world.
>"ROCK MUSEEK
I have no idea why people keep saying this, Diana's theme sounded more like Arabic music then rock to me.
>OR BATMAN WILL BE RAPED IN PRISON
That line was from a interview from 2008, fuck off you context ignoring prick.
>>82441398
But he wasn't on the side lines, the entire story is about him, his effect on the world and he proves his nobility to it.
>>82441439
I don't think you know what hysterical means
>>82439981
>The "Martha" name drop was a weak reason for them to stop fighting
You do understand that the name itself wasn't the reason Bruce stopped fighting, right? I agree he sold it, though.
>I wish Superman & Batman had a actual conversation when Clark wrecks his car before getting to "The bat is dead" ultimatum.
This would make Batman seem too reasonable. I'm glad they kept it short and tense.
>Clark should have tried to reason with Bruce again after the first does of Kryptonite wore off
Yeah. It's apparent Superman was trying to talk at first and Bats didn't care, so it probably would have amounted to nothing, but I would have appreciated a bit more trying on Clark's part. End result of the fight would have still been the same, though.
>In the comics Superman's death served no purpose beyond publicity, here It furthers his story in that it sets in stone that his intent towards humanity was good and noble this whole time and that humanities paranoia about him while logical was unfounded.
Fucking yes. This was something I immediately appreciated. I like that it's also serving as the impetus for the League being formed and all the superhumans to be brought out of hiding, instead of "well, we all just showed up around the same time, suddenly"
>People have bitched about the CGI for Doomsday but it looked good to me.
For me it was just the design. I wish they had used some of the concepts, that made him look more like an undead, alien horroshow than, you know, a cave troll.
>The piss jar and Senate explosion scene I expected to be horrible but actually ended up being pretty tense.
Agree. It was unsettling and tense, it made the audience feel what Senator Finch probably felt. I know people wanted a transparent monologe from Superman here, detailing what he stands for, but the thing is, from his actions, it's already apparent what he stands for. The explosion served to define Lex's character, that he is selfish, vindictive, heartless, and cunning.
>>82441482
Snarky is fine, Durance had that. But Bosworth was a flat out Bitch at times.
>>82441526
>you context ignoring prick.
Oh no, you must be confused, i'm not Zack Snyder
>>82440006
>The piss jar and Senate explosion scene I expected to be horrible but actually ended up being pretty tense.
I don't agree.
>People have bitched about the CGI for Doomsday but it looked good to me
It looked good to you
>Amy Adams continues to be the best Lois Lane we have gotten movie-wise in that she is the most subtle, the best reporter and the least hysterical or bitchy of the bunch
Not really a competition. She still was a weak character though. One of the weaker aspects of the film. And she's stupid as hell.
>Gal is serviceably good up until she enters the battle with Doomsday at which point she becomes awesome.
She's a terrible actress and has no charisma nor the physique for the role. Hans Zimmer basically saved that scene.
>Outfit design is great for the trinity
Batman suit is too bulky and looks like a duct tape. Other than that, yes I agree.
>Jesse was good for what they chose to do with this incarnation of Lex regardless if what they chose to do was a good or bad creative choice.
Not really. He didn't act very well. Again, one of the weakest parts of the movie.
>In the comics Superman's death served no purpose beyond publicity, here It furthers his story in that it sets in stone that his intent towards humanity was good and noble this whole time and that humanities paranoia about him while logical was unfounded.
It still kinda is solely because of publicity. I mean it's obvious that they did it just because of the shock value and ''Oh yeah, movie lacks emotion, let's add something very emotionally gripping although we're basically going to undo it a movie later''.
>Strongly liked Clark's 2 sacrificial moments with him holding on to Doomsday even after seeing the nuke coming & the 2nd being the ending obviously.
First one killed the impact for the second one
>Ben is the best live action Bruce & Batman
I agree. Not because he acted well, but because he was cool as fuck. It wasn't even a competition though.
>>82441550
>You do understand that the name itself wasn't the reason Bruce stopped fighting, right?
Of course.
>This would make Batman seem too reasonable. I'm glad they kept it short and tense.
I think it comes off as Clark being a little too dickish and over lording with his power, I would have had Clark state that he knows he is Bruce Wayne and he is letting him go this time out of sympathy for the friends Bruce lost in the black zero event.
>>82441681
>Clark being a little too dickish and over lording with his power
I kind of like it when he does this, especially early in his career, as he is here.
>>82441568
Its very unclear were the guy with the baby was shot.
The grey on the wall is blood splatter so he was shot.
He may have used rubber bullets but the explosions could still have killed some regardless.
>>82441610
>And she's stupid as hell.
How?
>She's a terrible actress
You have zero evidence of this, she was perfectly competent in Fast Furious.
>and has no charisma nor the physique for the role
She had charisma in all her speaking scenes and she was badass during the action muscular or not.
>Not because he acted well
He did.
I honestly didn't have an issue storywise, most of my issues comes from the editing of the movie. It ruins a lot of the pacing. Like when Bruce meets Diana second time. How? When? It just jumps to them meeting and then to Bruce just having the drive. Hello transition shots
>>82441717
>Fast forward to JL 2
>Superman smashes parademon on the ground and we get a cool shot of the surrounding buildings collapsing because of the impact
>Possibly some died, the collateral damage is incredible
>"Duh, how long has he been doing this, 3 years? It's so early in his career, I love his recklessness!"
>>82441610
Literally nothing but opinions. The post.
You know nothing of acting.
>>82441839
I don't really agree with this complaint. We start with Diana at another high society party and then Bruce shows up. I was able to infer that since he first met her at a high society party, he's been keeping tabs on other parties in hopes that she showed up
>>82441459
No I'm fully aware of Dr Donald Blake and the original thor comics. I'm also aware that he was quickly made to actually be thor and the idea that he's just a guy with thors powers hasn't been relevant in decades and I fail to see how it's relevant to this conversation.
>>82441880
Why would you think it's easy to fight like this around a city?
The closest thing we've ever had to a flying huge objects crashing into buildings was 911. Whatever dude. Keep hating that superman isn't instantly perfect.
>>82441925
The relevance, which apparently requires spoonfeeding, is that even in its inception the literal gods in Marvel were humanized and given human frailties in a way that DC didn't. DC didn't NEED to slum it like that.
>>82441839
Why do you need a movie explained to you you fucktard?
Are you a actual autist?
>>82441898
>It's great and epic and tense
This isn't opinions?
>>82442012
That's not the point of superman.
He is a god. Bare non. It is his existance that reflects a desire for a relatable, and benevolent all powerful being.
If you don't think that can work in the stories I've got about eight library's worth of religious text to say fuck you.
>>82442039
Different people.
But no.
Define those themes and you'll find instances of them in that movie.
Go ahead buddy find instances of bad acting.
>>82442013
When did I said I need it explained to me?
>>82441901
But Bruce didn't meet her. They locked eyes and then Clark interrupts Bruce when he tries to speak with her at Lex's party. They don't meet so its weird that he's suddenly following and found her. At least a line about looking for her would had been good.
>>82442159
>At least a line about looking for her would had been good.
She stole his data-stealing device and he wanted it back. He literally says this out loud to her.
>>82442159
Well he knows she stole both his drive and car. Why exactly would he not be interested in finding her?
>>82442159
> Literally asking for the movie to explain a scene every normal person got through thematic means but it won't make sense to me unless the actors waste a line on some shitheel explanation on why batman wants to track down theif that clearly stole his plot device
> not wanting the movie spoonfed to me.
> not autistic
I agree editing cut out a lot of good movie but if it had to be edited this was not that bad. And i do not know why you got lost.
>>82441802
>How?
She basically dropped the fucking spear just to pick it up 2 minutes later in the movie. Maybe, yes it doesn't make the character stupid, but it certainly does the script. Which also makes character look like one.
>You have zero evidence of this, she was perfectly competent in Fast Furious.
Other than her accent slipping throughout the movie and similar situations like pic related? Yes.
>She had charisma in all her speaking scenes
She was barely convincing
>He did.
Literally no muscle movement on his face. And he acted too much over the top. It looked cool? Yes. Hell yes.
>>82441898
>Literally nothing but opinions. The post.
I answered directly to OP's opinions about the movie which are highly subjective.
>You know nothing of acting.
Except I do. I mean this is an anonymous imageboard so I'm not going to prove it somehow that I know about acting.
>>82442159
> I wasn't paying attention to the movie
Dude. Swollow bleach.
>>82442245
I meant before the second meet up at least to Alfred as he was walking out. Like his computer beeps and then he's walking out saying "I found the drive"
>>82442281
Didn't say he wouldn't. I know he would be looking for it.
>>82439997
>The Good & Great
It gave us this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYT1smf08M
That's pretty much it.
And I guess JERMemy Irons was all right.
>>82442285
>asking for a little better editing is autistic
>>82442325
I paid attention just fine, I understand the movie and I love it. Its just a small personal complaint. I didn't trash the movie.
>>82442318
Oh and here are good examples of acting in superhero movies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3DScYKzw80
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDf827q5kGg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjTrFo-bITU
>>82442318
>>82442318
That is her accident. They decided she would have one. You know. Because foreign characters have an accident.
And clearly no. You do not. Otherwise maybe you would be a director of a multi billion dollar movie. Instead of loosing a argument on the internet.
>>82442386
It's seems like you're the only person in this thread that needed this explained
>>82440051
Or just another superman movie, or just jumped into Justice League. My big problem with this movie is that it's 3 partially finished movies instead of one cohesive plot.
>>82442456
I'm not talking about her having an accent. I'm talking about her accent slipping. There's a difference.
>Otherwise maybe you would be a director of a multi billion dollar movie
Like Michael Bay and Zack Snyder?
>>82442511
She having an accent*
>>82442090
>That's not the point of superman.
Dude, you're full of it. He's literally SuperMAN for a reason.
Also I don't give a shit about how many religious texts you cite. What you SHOULD be citing is motherfucking superman comic books.
>>82442114
Yes I'm sure that if you stretch your definitions of weasel words you can find stuff that qualifies.
I would also define bad acting as "any acting of sufficiently low quality to remove my investment in the narrative". Of which Snyder movies are filled with.
>>82442600
I think that anon was looking for a specific example
>>82440094
She somehow thought it was safer in a hole in that random fucking hole than where it was already, what fucking logic was she using? She had NO trouble getting the spear until the building started collapsing, which means it was a fucking stupid place to put it, if you REALLY wanted to get rid of something why would you put it somewhere you think a normal human can easily reach?
>>82443035
How about the fact that being around it killed superman and she wanted it to not be around superman so she threw it in a body of water?
That make much sense to you?
>>82441439
That's what Silver Age Lois used to do.
>>82441087
I dunno, anon. Her version of Lois acts like an actual reporter and investigates shit. I know a lot of people hate it but it didn't take her much time to find out Clark's identity in MOS as anyone with a brain, never mind a reporter should be able to figure out.
>>82443103
She put it somewhere that anyone who actually wanted it could easily get it, hell she would have gotten it if the building didn't start to collapse.
If she really wanted it gone why didn't she put ANY real effort into getting rid of it?
>>82443222
I don't have a problem with her being efficient, even if sometimes it's all too convenient, i have a problem with the fact that she's nothing more than efficient
>>82439981
>>The JL cameos are a bit ill placed in the film
>a bit
>>82443820
I think they were awesome and should have been In the film.
But they interrupted the tension of Superman going to face Bruce.
They should have been put in the film prior to Martha being kidnapped.
>>82440013
Do you know what Hypercrisis is?
>>82443820
Tbh that scene should have been an after credits scene without the logos on the files, would have been far better
>>82441802
>He may have used rubber bullets but the explosions could still have killed some regardless.
This argument would mean something if the whole point of the story wasn't to build up to Batman almost killing the Joker.
>>82439981
Now, when you say break it down, do you want us to break down the movie as it is or in correlation to the characters and stories that they are supposed to be based upon?
>>82444746
List what you liked and didn't like about the film.
>>82439981
Good
>Wonder Woman was the only person who was hype during that fight scene and she made me hate it less.
>Batfleck was a pretty decent Bruce Wayne
>Lex Luthor was an entertaining villain but a REALLY ODD choice for LEX.
>The actual BvS fight reminded me of The Dark Knight returns and I enjoyed it in that aspect.
>As did Superman, after getting hit by that nuke.
>A lot of the visual effects were pretty good.
>I actually really liked the scene where Luther bombed the conference hall.
Bad
>Lois Lane basically did jack shit
>The putting the spear in water scene is still hilarious to me.
>Once doomsday shows up, the story basically has to try to find something for Bruce to do.
>Despite Wondy being the most hype during that fight scene, her special effects were by far the least convincing.
>The whole movie builds up why Bats and Superman hate each other only to have superman have to fight to save his mother instead of just because he hates batman
>Lex thought batman and superman would just kill each other for some reason.
>The fact that it was called Batman vs. Superman instead of just "Dawn of Justice"
>Superman's character is to stoic and depressed and just genuinely unengaging.
>Batman seems extra murderous but also just genuinely unhinged.
I don't hate it as much as everyone I know does, but yeah, it's like a 6/10 at best.
>>82440072
He didn't make the connection instantly because he isn't clairvoyant. You know, he has to detective work like a real detective before finding out the solution.
Reminder to all the people complaining or mocking the spear ditching scene, that Lois was the only one who knew were it was, in an abandoned building somewhere in a fuckhueg city, so it would be pretty damn hard to find. And also that she didn't knew about Doomsday being released and it being weak to the spear in the first place; just that it was the thing that almost killed her husbando.
Sure, plotwise, it may have been done to conveniently place more drama when supes goes to recover it; but character wise, it made sense why she did it.
>>82446690
You're not allowed to think for yourself. I'm confiscating your brain!
>>82439997
>Zimmer's score is good with a few great points, not as good a score as his Man of Steel work but still solid.
unlike MoS, it seemed forced to me, same with the visuals which are normaly the strong point of Snyder movies, I guess its better if it is somewhat moderate for JL, as it seems Snyders sometimes tend to go all out with some scenes wich make them pretty heavy to stomach.
I thought Lex was overall a great villian, to bad he carried that name, I'm fine with him being an OC character.
>>82439997
>>Him rescuing Martha is the best Batman fight scene we have ever gotten in live action.
I didn't really understand this desu. Couldn't Superman get there quicker and do it easier?
>>82447112
If Superman shows up, KGBeast has orders to kill her. He didn't have orders to kill her if Batman shows up, which means that he wouldn't be able to do it because if you don't follow Lex's rules he'll kill you.
>>82439981
Snyder completely misses the point of Superman, casting him as an emotionally distant alien trying to find his place on a world of inferior humans he feels compelled to watch over. Boiled down to its simplest form, Synder thinks of Superman as "Superman", which Clark Kent being an afterthought. Superman is supposed to be a disguise for Clark Kent, not the other way around.
You see this most directly when Supes is referring to Krypton as 'his world' and the Krptonians as 'his people'. Fuck off, Clark. Your world is EARTH. You grew up in KANSAS. You haven't spoken to another Kryptonian for longer than 10 minutes in your entire life, and that was a fucking hologram of your dad.
The only reason for Clarke to bee so weirdly detached from humanity in BvS is because Snyder tried to force the messianic imagery way, waaaay too hard. A little bit of jesus metaphor was inevitable, given that we are doing the Death of Superman arc, but this movie was fucking packed with it. I haven't seen so many crosses onscreen at once since End of Evangelion.
>>82447112
there were two things going on, something was happening at the kryptonian ship and Martha was running out of time, Superman wanted to go to her but didn't know where, batman said he'd get Martha and Superman should go to the ship, well batman had to face random henchmen and superman had to face Doomsday, I'd say batman made the right call.
>>82446950
Was he, though?
Is there literally anything that Lex is actually good at? Any skill he has that makes him dangerous in any way?
He isn't a physical threat, but that's to be expected. He a human opposing Superman, muscle was never going to win him this fight.
But he isn't a canny businessman or a self made man or anything else what would serve as substance to his ambition. He inherited his wealth and company from his dad. So he has successfully not pissed the company away into bankruptcy, but that's not worth a gold star.
He isn't charismatic, he can't even keep his shit together for a speech at his own party for which he has had months to prepare. Even before he spergs out and has to abandon the stage, his speech just rambles all over the place without any apparent central theme or point. This clearly was not a speech he prepared, so he lacks not just public speaking skills but basic forethought.
And he clearly isn't all that intelligent, because none of his plans fucking worked in any way. He got caught setting up the showdown in Africa because he left the most fucking obvious evidence trail on the planet, blowing up the courthouse turned him into a domestic terrorist in return for absolutely no gain, the kryptonite that he worked so hard top get into the country was stolen right out from under his nose, and both his plans to take out superman were DEEPLY flawed.
Even Lex didn't trust Batman to take out Superman, as evidenced by him already pulling the trigger on Doomsday well in advance. But on top of that, no outcome of the Doomsday plan benefits Lex. If Doomsday killed Superman, Lex was just as dead because he had no control, or even any reason to believe he would have control, over Doomsday.
The ONLY thing that made Lex dangerous was his money, which he inherited. And he couldn't even use Lexcorp resources well. He was given a golden head start, and had absolutely no skills to use that to his advantage in his insane, stupid plan.
>>82447366
He didn't die at the end, so that already puts him ahead of about 80% of the cape movie villains out there.
I agree with absolutely everything else you said though. If this Lex is supposed to be so smart then why did he get caught?
>>82447149
List me a good reason why Superman couldn't bust in the room and punch KGBeast at the speed of sound before he can even blink. The only one i can think of is that he was still kinda weak because of the fight
But Batman's intervention is technically just as risky. Sure, when speaking to Supes Lex didn't account for Batman to become his ally, but once that happened KGBeast could've just picked up a radio and go
>Yo, boss, some asshole is trashing us all
>Well, shit, blast the witch!
Bad end
Just like most stuff in this movie, for the situation to work some of the characters involved has to be super dumb
>>82447366
Yeah man we're never gonna get a Legion of Doom in this universe are we?
Goddamnit Zack Snyder.
>>82447478
If the characters can't speak more than 4-5 lines while in costume, how would the meetings go?
>>82447418
The deleted scene does have him looking for Martha but being unable to find her, apparently. I hope they show Alfred figuring out where she is using the batcomputer too. That would be pretty nice.
>>82447648
Maybe i got it wrong, but i think they said that scene was deleted as a concept, not just cut from the theatrical. After all, when Lex tells Clark he has Martha the latter shows no sign that he already knew she was missing. Unless that was just him being surprised that Lex had her? But that would be dumb, he already knew that Lex was after him and he already kidnapped Lois, so why would Superman assume Martha just happened to disappear for an unrelated reason?
>>82447410
Its not even the fact that he got put in prison so much as the fact that all of his plans were just really, really dumb.
The only reason that Lex didn't get fucking arrested in the first 15 minutes of the movie is because the US Government didn't want to fuck up their Lexcorp military contracts and draw attention to the fact that the CIA was conducting an undercover operation when all that shit went down. They knew about the Lexcorp connection before Lois did, it was just inconvenient to prosecute so they buried it.
Notice how none of this was masterminded by Lex. Its really only dumb luck that he didn't get dragged into jail at the start of the movie and buried alive under the evidence of him being a war criminal.
>>82439981
Wonder Woman was actually amazing for me, loved all of her character moments and her theme song is heartpumping.
Loved when she got knocked down and smiled because she finally got to do some serious combat and her sexy body pose. Her physical battle acting was all very well done.
Gal Gadots acting/line reading was surprisingly passable to boot.
I think it was implied that Superman was in hiding because he sort of killed a lot of people and felt embarrassed about that, although most people forgave him, he didn't forgive himself.
I think you really covered it really well. Shocked more people don't just give BvS a pass for the Batman alone but it is what it is.
>>82447366
The incident on the dessert was never supposed to be investigated and only came to light because of one bullet that somehow hit Lois book. The suicide bomb at the hearing also damaged superman not only emotionally but got more people against him.
Batman only got the kryptonite because he was tracking down KGBeast and Batman getting his hand on kryptonite actually worked on Lex favour because Batman almost killed Superman, I do wonder though how else Lex thought Batman would defeat superman without it. Nevertheless Batman wouldn't have found out where Martha was if he wasn't constantly tracking down KGBeasts phone. Martha would've died and superman had stil to face Doomsday, even if superman would've killed Batman, Lex was already activating Doomsday.
>>82447536
>Brainiac: So, uh... that Justice League, eh?
>Cheetah: The Wonder Woman is such a bitch!
>Gorilla Grodd: The Flash made my lab explode in lighting just by walking in
>Black Manta: I faced the Aqua Man last week but for some reason he couldn't speak underwater
>Lex: We should kill the Superman...
>Cold: Wasn't he already dead?
>Bizarro: Me Bizarro-Superman! Me like helping people!
>Lex: ...we should steal back that kryptonite from the Batman...
>Riddler: I think he groped my ass last night...
>Lex:... LIKE PROMETHEUS STOLE FIRE FROM THE GODS!
>Brainiac: What
>>82448190
Lex: circles! No wait, triangles? Uhh, squares...
Ra's: Jesus Christ, Lex.
Jesus Christ, this is the most mediocre film to be talked about daily on this board.
>>82448494
It was REALLY good.
>>82448494
You know how things go
>>82439981
The reaction to BvS coupled with the success of Marvel's hand holding is the reason why we steadily keep getting series reboots instead of fascinating storylines that feature some of the most iconic characters of all-time.
This movie proves that you can't simply drop the audience into a comic book narrative, give subtle hints of the backstory, and expect the audience to even want for a second to use their brains to figure out motivations and characterizations. Yes, you could normally do this with most movies. Most movies won't hold your hand, give you 10 fucking prequels to build up to a critical juncture, and spell out meaningless details as Marvel does- but Marvel's very successful at it. So should all comic movies build a gigantic fucking universe b4 introducing new characters? Should they all be indelibly linked to one another? Is that shit even necessary? Given the majority of audience and critics' reactions, the answer is a sadly and disgustingly mindless drone of a 'yes'.
The best part of BvS are its visuals. I love seeing the events of MoS through the eyes of Batman. I loved being afraid of Batman. The scene where he rescues those girls from the human traffickers was amazing. Why? They were just as afraid of the guy that rescued them as they were their perpetrators. Then on to the scene where Batman fought Superman, the fear for Superman's safety was palpable. Would BvS have been what it was without this cruel version of Batman? I doubt it. In fact, the concept of Batman vs. Superman would've been made impotent, predictable, and meaningless.
>>82448190
More please this is gold.
>>82448775
LMAO
>>82448775
False.
Mos & Bvs are much much better then Green Lantern & ASM2.
>>82448973
continued...
The few things that I didn't like:
>Louis was saved about 3 times during this movie. It began to feel overused.
>Lex and his "you know the oldest lie in the ..." dialogue. This also began to feel overused. I'm surprised there's no meme of this yet.
>the uninhabited areas in a very populated city: doomsday falls onto an uninhabited island after getting blasted by the nuke and he trails batman to a derelict, abandoned port.
>the funeral at the end. the editing seemed sporadic, switching between scenes with entirely different moods. i wasn't allowed to feel the sheer impact of it all.
Overall, it's a great film that leaves its audience with something to think and dwell on. It's a solid 8/10
is supes reallyded?
>>82448973
I know you think you're smart because you puzzled things out but I think you overlook or are ignoring the fact that contexualization is important beyond the audience understanding what and why things happen; it's vital in giving them a reason to care about those things happening. Getting the audience to give a shit about your characters isn't "hand holding".
The fact of the matter is I get why Bruce is paranoid I get why Clark is detached and I even kind of get Lex's convoluted plan. I just don't care about any of it. It's all flashy spectacle without weight or meaning because I'm not invested in any of the characters succeeding or getting what they want, since they're all just varying shades of asshole.
You're right. The movie does give me something to think about. It very subtly posits the question of whether or not we need superheroes and the implications seem to be that they only bring problems. So why would I want to see their continued exploits?
>>82449497
I can agree with MoS, but BvS? Nah, it'd be in the right company
>>82449807
It's because you don't have empathy. You couldn't feel Bruce's anger when he was helping out the little girl and his employees. You couldn't feel Clark's sadness and disappointment in the way he was treated by the general public. He didn't want to be treated like a god, just a normal man doing the right thing who was gifted with special powers.
The fact that you don't care is on you. Tell me, has any work of fiction caused you to care for its characters? If so, which?
>>82449991
>It's because you don't have empathy.
I will admit that I have been accused of that before.
>You couldn't feel Bruce's anger when he was helping out the little girl and his employees.
I understood it yes, and to be honest, I think that even in his paranoid anger Bruce is 100% right that Superman needed to be put in check and I'm disappointed that this was thrown by the wayside.
> You couldn't feel Clark's sadness and disappointment in the way he was treated by the general public. He didn't want to be treated like a god, just a normal man doing the right thing who was gifted with special powers.
I'm sure you'll just scream NOT MUH SUPERMAN but Clark's sadness at how he's treated was stymied by the fact that at no point does he ever try mitigating that. It's like that quote fromthe Boondocks. If you're getting pissed on by R. Kelly, and you don't move out the way, that's on you. If Clark is getting regarded a certain why by the populace and puts ZERO effort into changing or re-framing that narrative (as he does in the comics all the time) then that's on him.
>The fact that you don't care is on you.
And the fact that you DO care is on you.
>Tell me, has any work of fiction caused you to care for its characters? If so, which?
I can think of maybe five examples but to be honest they're /a/ and /v/ for the most part so I dunno if you'd know them. Most recent in memory I can remember getting pretty misty eyed at during the first (or maybe it was the second) BnHA episode.
And yeah....I did cry bitch tears over a boat once.
>>82449991
Not that anon, i felt it with Bruce's opening scene, it was genuinely powerful and made perfect sense for the character to feel anger at that moment. I was surprised
But the rest? Nah, everything felt too artificial, for the lack of a better word. It was artificial how people kept comparing Supes to a God (especially when a guy like Batman is around. If the world is used to capes, to whatever extent, what's so unique about Superman? Is it all about powersets? Yeah, impressive, but they all knew of his alien origins!), artificial how he had such a creepy statue despite half the world hating him, it was artificial how he could do nothing to try improve his image (never speaks, never smiles, the movie makes it look like the hearing was the first time in almost 2 years that he was openly going to talk in front of a crowd)
When Batman and Superman finally started fighting i didn't feel sad because "oh, they just don't understand each other!", i felt sad because such characters were forced to be dumb and grim in order for this shitfest to exist, blame it on Snyder's ego or WB's general incompetence
A little something i find funny is that half the point of BvS was to set up JL, but because of the way BvS framed the world i can't imagine how those movies are gonna be anything other than weird costumed people leveling cities to defeat some threat and then the people go "OH MY GOD, THEY'RE GOD!", causing more pseudo-philosophical debates all over again... wait, no, not debates, characters will barely speak but they'll sure come up with some cryptic sentences and dream sequences
Are they really going to make comic book stories in a setting were comic-y elements are taken to a satirical extreme and treated as unwanted abnormality? How do you guys think DCEU's society is gonna react when they learn that they guy they compared to God for years suddenly resurrects like an actual God? They'll just go "he's just a man trying to do the right thing!" and forget about it?
>>82449631
He'll be back for Justice League, honestly.
>>82439997
I actually liked the score more for the most part. Wonder Woman's theme was pretty great but they played it at some inopportune times.
>>82447418
>List me a good reason why Superman couldn't bust in the room and punch KGBeast at the speed of sound before he can even blink. The only one i can think of is that he was still kinda weak because of the fight
>"They need you at that ship"
Batman knew whatever shit was happening there was out of his league.
I want the operating table line so bad....
>>82440894
Best live action Lois Lane at least.
>>82450478
>>82450134 again and Actually I think you nailed it on the head. I get what the movie(s) is going for but Snyder's style is such that he telegraphs the emotional notes too hard. I'm too aware that he's using stuff like the score and color to yell "FEEL SAD" or "NOW IT'S TIME TO BE HAPPY" at me and so it just comes off as fake and forced.
>>82450742
Teri Hatcher was better.
>>82439997
>>Gal is serviceably good up until she enters the battle with Doomsday at which point she becomes awesome.
And all your opinions are instantly disregarded. Gal Gadot's performance was a gigantic insult to the Wonder Woman IP. She had the body of a 10 year old boy pre Doomsday battle and then they loaded her body up with CGI enhancements for the battle as well as photoshop her body to appear muscular in that world war photograph. She could have been completely left out of the movie and nothing of value would have been lost, they just needed to change the Doomsday eyebeaming batman when he crashed. People are giving Gal far too much credit when she didn't even earn it and it boggles my mind as to why. I can only guess that people are that desperate for a Wonder Woman movie that they will praise literally anything as long as the wonder woman actress isn't white. I find it hilarious that people always call me sexist, a woman hater or misogynist just because I have an opinion that clashes with "popular opinion".
>>82450950
>it boggles my mind as to why.
I can think of a couple reasons.
The first being that since the overall movie was kind of mediocre all Gadot had to do was be the most generic action bimbo ever and that was still enough to qualify as good in context.
The second is that soundtrack. That "Badass incoming" electric guitar riff is manipulative as hell. But it's also one of those things where if you're aware of its usage it loses all impact and loops back to being funny in how cliche it is, so there's that.
Third is, as you say, people are just that starved for a WW movie.
>>82451042
Wow I didn't even notice the soundtrack reason. That is an excellent point.
>>82449807
>I know you think you're smart because you puzzled things out
No, I think people rely too much on simplicity- to be given everything in easily consumable, palatable scoops.
>it's vital in giving them a reason to care about those things happening. Getting the audience to give a shit about your characters isn't "hand holding".
It is hand holding when there's a character that exists in the story that doesn't need anything to care about the lives of others. It is hand holding when everything has been made fairly clear as to why these characters are important and fundamental to the telling of their stories, yet the audience somehow cannot find themselves caring about anything.
Superman IS the contextualization. His mere placement in the corporeal world displaces humanities' structure of their known universe. Lex, Batman, civilians, and the rest must come to terms with his existence.
>It very subtly posits the question of whether or not we need superheroes and the implications seem to be that they only bring problems. So why would I want to see their continued exploits?
The heroes are justified by their villains. One rises to meet the challenges of the other. If anything, the question being posited isn't whether or not we need superheros, but instead, whether we need gods.
>>82441550
>In the comics Superman's death served no purpose beyond publicity, here It furthers his story in that it sets in stone that his intent towards humanity was good and noble this whole time and that humanities paranoia about him while logical was unfounded.
Some more exposition around this in the film would have gone down a treat
>>82441839
I want the 4 hour cut.
>>82451503
>4 hr cut
please tell me this is true. please tell me that the director's cut is real. please tell me that this good movie can be made great.
>>82443035
>if you REALLY wanted to get rid of something why would you put it somewhere you think a normal human can easily reach?
She was hiding it from batman, she put it in water, he was wearing weights and wouldn't be able to get it out.
>>82447366
>And he clearly isn't all that intelligent, because none of his plans fucking worked in any way
Last time I checked the movie ended with Superman in a coffin anon. I'll chalk that up to a Lex win.
I deeply dislike just about everything about this take on the DC universe, but I recognize that I'm an old fashioned guy and I'm hesitant to claim that this isn't a valid take on the characters. I think it's a distasteful and cynical take, but not invalid.
The one character I would say the movie did well was Doomsday. The major theme of the story was levying "the question of evil" upon Superman, which in short is questioning how one reconciles the belief in a Savior figure with the evil suffered in the world. We see Batman allegorically experience post 9/11 disillusionment in regards to his ideals of heroism in the face of the Black Zero event, and we see Luthor most prominently of all project his hatred of this concept of a archetypal Savior for what he perceives as a betrayal by him for allowing his abuse at the hands of his father.
Further adding to this building force of evils in life Superman is being made to answer for, we see Zods corpse in the Kryptonian birthing chamber be remade by Luthor in the form of a horrific birth defect that inspired the Kryptonians to adopt an extreme eugenics ideology for their civilization. In this, Doomsday becomes the embodiment of everything we are made to suffer in this life, an abortion of genetic deformity and Luthors childhood abuse.
Superman and Doomsday killing each other was the act of Superman taking this evil upon himself for the sake of humanity
>>82447879
Lex wanted Batman to steal the Kryptonite. Hence why he put it upstairs, was happy it was stolen and told Bruce about his military developments at the party.
>>82451576
It was 3.5 hours after first round of editing. This is where the editor felt comfortable, they lopped another hour off of that to get it in theatres.
It's Snyders fault for handing the editor 4 hours of footage that can be comfortably be cut to 3.5 hours, but with the expectation that it will run for 2.5 hours.
>>82440760
That's an interesting idea - but wouldn't do any favours to Clark's character beyond removing any of the faint characterisation he gets until the fight's over. I believe proper edits will only be possible when the ultimate cut comes, and we actually have additional material to work with - but I commend your idea and efforts.
>>82451169
>It is hand holding when there's a character that exists in the story that doesn't need anything to care about the lives of others.
I disagree. Within the more cynical framing of the narrative something that ruins counter to it needs explanation and exploration. Especially because the narrative contradicts it. If no one stays good forever, why are we supposed to believe Clark is exempt from this? We take classic Superman at face value because in that kind of world everyone has the potential to be good deep down. This is a more original sin universe, so we need a framework to justify his altruism. Especially given that he doesn't even seem to be that interested in forming bonds with humanity.
Bruce on the other hand? He doesn't need that framework nearly as much. Because in all honesty the narrative paints him as right up until the last 20 minutes or so.
>>82452443
That hinges entirely on what the additional material is.
You can't give Clark more character if he doesn't get more dialogue
>>82440760
A fan edit of MoS and BvS would be good
>>82452527
He gets heaps in the ultimate cut. It includes him running around Gotham interviewing criminals and learning how bad bats has got. This is before the party scene where he presents his case to Bruce.
We also see him having recurring nightmares about killing Zod / battle of metropolis. This is why on the mountain when he met ghost!Dad he says "will the nightmares ever end", there are actually lots of scenes like that for Clark that were cut.
Superman's "death" doesn't have enough emotional impact to me, considering he still lacks of real characterization. He barely talks, everything related to him just sort of exposition and symbolism. The very end scene was just a cheap emotional bait
>>82450134
>Bruce is 100% right
The point of the film was that he was wrong about most of arguments. Superman was wrong too, when he said "men don't stay good." Even Wonder Woman was proven wrong when she said "boys don't share." Everyone grew as characters.
>If Clark is getting regarded a certain why by the populace and puts ZERO effort into changing or re-framing that narrative (as he does in the comics all the time) then that's on him.
He was wondering all this time how exactly to do this. Any small mistske could make things worse; that was part of his turmoil. He finally had a chance to set things straight during the hearing, but you saw how that turned out.
>And the fact that you DO care is on you.
Yes, the fact that I did end up caring means they did it properly. The last time I remember caring this much about characters was probably when I saw Fist of the North Star.
It would be nice if you could give the examples anyway, but you're probably right that I wouldn't know them. I don't even know what "BnHA" stands for.
>>82440760
Here's hoping the Ultimate Cut is better. I get the feeling that the Ultimate Cut was originally the theatrical cut, but WB pushed the issue for it being 2:30.
Snyder's films are generally better in the extended/director's cuts, so I don't get why they wouldn't just run with the 3 hour (or at least, 2:45) cut.
>>82455885
I don't know, Watchmen have extended scene of a kid reading graphic novel which add nothing to the story
>>82441681
>I think it comes off as Clark being a little too dickish and over lording with his power, I would have had Clark state that he knows he is Bruce Wayne and he is letting him go this time out of sympathy for the friends Bruce lost in the black zero event.
That was kind of the point.
Obviously, we as the audience know Superman is totally in the right, given Batman effectively just killed a bunch of men, who weren't even criminals.
But from Batman's warped perspective (and it is warped, given his actions and comments about being a criminal), he just sees Superman throwing his seemingly unlimited power around, threatening him.
The scene is basically from Batman's perspective, so its supposed to portray Supes as a dick, even those he's totally justified in coming down and telling Batman to cut the shit.
>>82452456
>If no one stays good forever, why are we supposed to believe Clark is exempt from this?
You're not supposed to believe that Clark is exempt nor does the narrative contradict him. The narrative is that Superman represents the good in everyone trying to break out.
There are different ways to perceive Clark and the movie goes through them in a rather basic way with the use of socio-political punditry. Superman is striving and suffering for an idea- the idea that promotes goodness against nearly impossible odds. If a character like Superman can care for everyone, can suffer for the sake of others, then what's stopping the audience from at least trying to see everything as he does? If there's good within the audience, his pain should speak to them- his story should speak to them. His altruism should beg the question of whether it's humanly possible to be in his likeness- to serve others until it hurts. If people can conceive of a character like Superman, then it's well within the audience's ability to relate and see his possibility within themselves. The audience may find this task easier with Batman given that Batman's world feels more real due to the exploitation of our cynical nature. Batman's world can be just as illusory as Superman's. Batman finally understands this by not locking Superman into his limitations as to what's possible regarding goodness in this reality- to give goodness a chance before snuffing it out. With that being said, Bruce could still be right about Superman without it cementing his worldview.
It seems that people have to view Clark playing baseball, going to parties, falling over in laughter before the thought of caring about anything outside of himself becomes relevant regarding his virtuous nature- that Clark has to receive humanity's gold star in order to justify his actions. Superman acts or intervenes simply by knowing that he has the power to affect outcomes and make a difference; guided by his virtue.
>>82455552
Listen I get that the movie wants us to think he's wrong but you know how everyone keeps talking about how to look at this movie you need to be capable of independent thought?
You can't ask that of an audience and then expect them to agree with your premise on autopilot like that. The fact that they put so little effort into building up Clark really makes it seem like he is the threat that Bruce is declaring him to be. He's not that threat INTENTIONALLY, but yeah, the world is worse off because he exists. All he's done is saved planet from threats that exist because of him on one level or another.
And yeah I did see how the senate hearing scene turned out. And if I'm being totally honest, that's when the movie lost me completely. That's when I realized that the supposed ideological clash was going to be a one sided shitting on Superman for the rest of the movie barring its ending and even then the ending is forced as hell. Clark chooses to die but the sacrifice is low on impact because of how forced it is. A spear is a throwing weapon, there's already another super powered weapon user, etc. there's so many reasons Clark could've just not died but they ONLY way Snyder could think to handle the character is kill him.
If that managed to resonate with you emotionally, then and I mean this without sarcasm good for you. It didn't for me. And I know I'm not the only one because people were getting up and leaving or turning on their phones during the funeral scene when I saw it.
As for the examples, Old school Simpsons still gets me. Bart Gets an F in particular I remember crying when Bart gives that speech about how he really tried but still failed and that's all he'd ever be.
BnHA is Boku no Hero Academia, a recent manga/anime about superheroes. The feels moment I was thinking of there was when the main character gets told by his idol that he can be a superhero even if he doesn’t have powers.
There's more but I am at the post limit.
>>82457094
>If a character like Superman can care for everyone, can suffer for the sake of others, then what's stopping the audience from at least trying to see everything as he does?
The director's latent cynicism and objectivism, which he and his defenders conflate with "realism".
>>82457112
>A spear is a throwing weapon, there's already another super powered weapon user, etc. there's so many reasons Clark could've just not died but they ONLY way Snyder could think to handle the character is kill him.
Think you missed some more Jesus allegory there.
>>82457503
The thing is I didn't since I was into evangelion as a teenager so I was familiar with the lance of longinus.
So Snyder forcing that so hard just made me angry. It's also hard to buy him as a neutral party in the whole 'Superman doesn't want to be seen as god' thing when he keeps pulling shit like that.
If you wanna have Superman's public perception be a plot element I'm usually all for it but he couldn't stop himself from doing the Jesus crap even when there's no "public" around.
Too much bad in this movie.
The bad:
>Incredibly sloppy editing, with scenes that come out of nowhere and jump all over the place, especially on the first half.
The dream sequences came out of nowhere, they felt disjointed and boring. The entire Batman vs Future Superman had no reason to exist, aside from inserting an action scene on a very boring first half. I'm pretty sure the opening alone gave us a good reason for Batman to fear Superman. Didn't need to compound or add bullshit foreshadowing.
>Anything related to Foreshadowing the universe, and the other 4 Justice League guys that don't even pretend matter half as much as Bats or Supes.
Wonder Woman had no reason to exist. That Flash scene had no reason to exist. That Metahuman scene had no reason to exist.
The entirety of the Wonder Woman sub-plot was so badly done that you realize she interacted zip with anyone other than Bruce, and even in the final fight I don't think she even gets a line. She's literally there to be mysterious and pretend it's the Big Three instead of the Big Two.
The Flash scene was just plain old unnecessary. It's an extended WAIT UP FOR THE JUSTICE LEAGUE CINEMATIC UNIVERSE HOLY SHIT.
And then there's the video scene, which shines in it's lameness. Have in mind we're nearing the climax here, and we're awaiting Batman's fight with Superman. Now scrap all of that and include a too long scene of Wonderwoman, mouth open wide in bewilderment, watch a couple Youtube clips filled with FORESHADOWING!!
>Here's a video of a Fabio poking the camera with his trident.
>Here's a photo of Wonderwoman with some soldiers.
>Here's a video of a actor standing around while red special effects FLASH on the screen.
>And I can't see shit filled with gas and vapor on a character people pretend is important.
Add some more wide agape bewilderment from Wonder Woman and you get the most unnecessary scene in the Universe.
>>82460341
>The editing and plotlines.
Again, this movie gave us too much shit to follow correctly. It's five whole movies with shit going around and way too little actual interaction between the characters. So bad it can be broken up into.
>Alfred and Bruce talking about how shit the world is.
>Lois Lane and military man talking about stuff.
>Lex Luthor and politics woman scheming against a Superman I don't think they've even spoke with.
>Superman reporting shit about Batman and being Jesus.
>Wonder Woman hyping up for the Justice League.
Now that I think about it, there's barely ever any interaction between either of these guys much in the movie. These plotlines barely intersect, which makes the whole thing feel disjointed, like stuff happens and nobody got a say on nothing the other guy does, which goes against the idea of a crossover.
To be fair, the movie is at it's best when the characters actually talk outside their plotlines, but those are few.
>Lex Luthor talks ONCE with Superman in the whole movie. Ditto ending talk with Batman.
>I don't remember Supes ever talking with Wondie.
>You don't see Alfred speaking with anyone other than Bruce.
>Politics woman speaks with Lex, dies before speaking with Superman.
Even the Lois and Clark scenes were surprisingly few and far for the official couple.
Anon here
Man of Steel is to me one of the top 5 cape movies ever. Fucking masterful and powerful, even with flaws. (Watchmen is also in the top 5)
I dislike most MCU movies besides, Cap The First Avenger, Winter Soldier and Iron Man 1 (looking forward to Civil War)
Dawn of Justice conceptually was far above most capeshit movies, but was let down by haphazard editing, leaps in character and plot development and resolution, and the shoehorned in Justice League cameos (aside from Wonder Woman) were bad. Im hoping the Directors Cut fixes most of that, if it does, it will easily be a top 10 capeshit movie for me.
Also, if Justice League pays off the Knightmare it will make BvS look better as well.
>>82460596
And just to build up on that:
>The story's a smorgasbord of the Dark Knight Returns, the Justice League, Death of Superman, and Lex Luthor's debut.
Each one of these deserved their own separate adaptation, or if you're bent on the ultimate crossover bent anyway, you could at least chop it up to two adaptations instead.
If you really wanted to focus on the titular characters, you should have left the Death of Superman for when it mattered, and kept Wonder Woman out of this.
Or if you really wanted to start with the Dawn of Justice, it would have been better without an ultimately fruitless Batman vs Superman banter, the Lois Lane plotline, and Politics Woman hating on Superman.
Focus on Batman returning and give more screen time on Wonder Woman. Or anything that didn't drown the whole thing in plot lines.
>>82460795
As for the good things.
>Batman.
Ben is, as far as I'm concerned, the definitive Batman as far as movies go. If not on it's no kill rule, it did well on everything else. And hell, you could do what I did and pretended Batman merely severely maimed the thugs he fought or whatever.
It's the first Batman that actually looks like he has any sort of weight on his assaults, and the speed of his attacks and gadgetry, agility, stealth and general look make it plausible that this guy can stand up against meta humans.
The same can't be said about Bruce, who's even mopier than other movie Waynes and has not an ounce of humor on him. It could be said he's more traumatized than usual, but his moppiness didn't give much signs of barely contained rage either. Just sad.
Unlike Batman, where the anger DID show and was fantastic, and the fight scenes were glorious, and I really want to see a Batman solo movie now.
>>82460341
>>82460596
>>82460795
>>82461079
In short, it would have been better if it had been a Dark Knight Returns movie, with Superman as a pure antagonist, at least from Bruce's perspective.
>>82461079
>and I really want to see a Batman solo movie now.
same
can't get enough of batfleck. i'm looking forward to his appearance in suicide squad as well.
I liked the movie
The Bad
>Louis Lane existed for audience exposition but her plotline went nowhere, there was no conclusion.
>Superman is now 5 on screen hours in and too moody for my liking, he should be further along in his character development
>Lex should have said 'ping ping ping' rather than 'ding ding ding' at the end
>Email opening scene was terribly timed, it broke up Lex/Supes convo and Bats/Supes fight
>Obviously pacing and editing was all over the place, scene transitions were non existent. We opened the movie by going to a city, a beach, a a forest and a desert with no real link
>3 death fakeouts in the space of 10 minutes, I hate death fakeouts.
>Flash did more damage saving the guy in the clip, he basically took out the whole damn store
>Aquaman looked like a guy holding his breath.
>Superman played 3rd fiddle in his own movie.
The Good
>literally everything else
>>82461362
One more bad I forgot
>Batman and Supermans first meeting in costume happens in a dream, for fans that have been waiting ages for this, that was a shitty copout.
>>82460746
>Also, if Justice League pays off the Knightmare it will make BvS look better as well.
Rumour is that JL starts in the knightmare, with the JL being defeated and Barry running back in time to that moment we saw in BvS. That sets the scene for the movie.
>>82461475
That would actually be a great idea
>>82461519
They can really do some really cool things with that imo.
Batfleck was the best part of this movie, hands down.
>>82461672
I actually walked out of the movie with Lex as my favourite, which I understand is a massively unpopular opinion.
7/10 movie, its not as bad as most people scream to be.
>>82460746
>Watchmen is also in the top 5
>>82447366
>dubs confirm Lex is drumpf
>>82464079
I'm trying to figure out if this was an ironic comic done for the absurdism, or if the person who made it was serious and didn't see the problem with arguing about how terrible it is for someone to assume all blacks are violent criminals, while their hero is enacting vigilante justice. I assume the context makes probably makes it more "justified." I assume they were lynching some folks, given the Ku Klux Klan outfits and the burning cross.
I should really look up why they burned crosses. You'd think that'd be like burning the flag, or something.
>>82464079
>drumpf
John Oliver pls, at least stating the current year isn't as unfunny and cringe worthy as that
The Martha bit wouldn't have been so awful if it hadn't been in goofy slow motion.
>>82439981
The Martha thing was fine for me. It made Batman stop fighting any pay attention, and when Lois told him who that was it proved to Batman that Superman actually cared about humans, seeing as how his dying request was for Batman to save one and not for his own sake.
>>82441254
Yeah, but the majority of Avengers are normally just people in suits, you know? Iron Man, Captain America, Ant Man, Wasp, Black Panther, Black Widow, Hawkeye ect.
Compared to like, Wonder Woman, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Shazam, The Flash, Power Girl, Supergirl, possibly even any Green Lantern.
Honestly its my favourite thing about both companies, DC is highly over powered, basically gods trying to be human, and Marvel is mostly humans trying to be gods, which is why Marvel works out better in main stream movies, the characters are more relateable, because really, who can relate to an all powerful god trying to be human while the whole world is literally worshiping him
>>82466449
I understand this position, but I always find it exaggerated on DC's part. Sure, their heroes have unbelievably OP powersets, but is that all there is to the character? I'm historically a Marvel guy, but DC always felt as human to me. Even in stories like Kingdom Come that are about their god-like status, a guy like Superman is still pretty human, faulty, emotional
>because really, who can relate to an all powerful god trying to be human while the whole world is literally worshiping him
See, that's something Snyder does, not the comics, I can't recall a single time Superman was worshipped in a comic except in Peace on Earth, and that was a single scene that showed an exceptional situation for Superman, not his norm
>>82466530
Its realistic though, I honestly find it super unbelievable that somebody like superman wouldnt be worshiped
honeslty i'm kind of shocked people dont worship Thor, with him being a literal god and all
>>82466570
Having it happen isn't really he problem. It's the sheer amount of focus and the fact that Clark does nothing to dissuade it that's the issue.
