It was nice to see Neil write Sandman again, but I don't like how he said the Endless had parents and established a hierarchy. I liked the idea that the Endless were concepts that existed since the beginning, not this cliche polytheistic religion mythology.
>>84451293
Hierachy among them existed since the old stories.
I didn't mind it. Weren't the parents Time and Space? Makes sense that they'd be there first. It wasn't until sentient life developed that the Endless came into existence/were born.
>>84451470
>Weren't the parents Time and Space?
But time is an artificial construct, an arbitrary system based on the idea that events occur in a linear direction at all times, always forward, never back. Time cannot truly exist without sentient life to develop the concept of time.
>>84453497
nigga no one cares and if they did they'd tell you to amend 'time' to 'entropy' and stop being a bitch
>>84453497
And what are dreams and desires m8?
>concepts that existed since the beginning
They Still are
Reminder that Yahweh is the most powerful being in the universe only because most people believe He is, and that Morpheus will overwrite reality with whoever's next when Yahweh falls out of favor.
>>84453633
But is Yahweh the same thing as the presence?
>>84453863
I didn't finish it all but in Lucifer its pretty much directly shown that he is. That is, that they are one and the same.
>>84453863
Yes. When Morpheus rewrites reality, he makes it to where the new data always existed. To say there were creators before Yahweh is a misnomer, because as far as the Universe is concerned he was always there.
>>84453497
>time cannot truly exist without sentient life
nigga what
time is the measurement of a series of events, a stone isn't weightless just because there is nothing to weigh it
>>84454017
It is and it isn't. Until you can weigh it, it's in a superposition of being both weighted and weightless.
>>84453920
For what I know, the Endless are INTO the sphere of the gods, while the Presence is greater and extend its influence way above it.
Dream probably can only influence on the sphere of the gods and bellow.
>>84453497
Time can exist without sentient life, you fucking retard.
Time refers to a sucession of events in a given space using another object as reference, so to have time you need at least two atoms (length).
>>84454138
I'm not familiar with the multiverse but
Who is that dude on Overvoid? Destiny?
>>84454197
I don't think that he is on overvoid, but yes, it is Destiny.
>>84454138
The Endless go beyond gods. They are literally the fundamental concepts of reality.
>>84454218
But still part of the Sphere of Gods isn't? And if I remember correctly, Dream didn't think that he had a chance to defeat Lúcifer.
Which thinking again...its kind of weird, he created his OWN multiverse. Did he had an equivalent for endless or he choose to let it random?
>>84454138
Can someone explain me that vibrational realm wankery?
>>84454285
he didn't think he could defeat Lucifer because he was super weak from being imprisoned for a couple decades, also because he was in Lucifer's realm (where he is most powerful)
>>84451293
Well you can't have dream without somebody to dream
>>84454371
Pretty sure that he said that even in his full force that he wasn't sure if he could win a confrontation.
>>84454285
>>84454371
>>84454502
People believe Lucifer is the Big Bad, thus he is and has the power to prove it.
>>84454538
I don't think that Dream can affect the Source.
>>84454604
No he can. If the universe stopped believing in a monotheistic God, it would be reduced to the level of the various gods that were aiming for the key to hell.
>>84454604
Don't you get it, he IS the Source! The Endless are also their opposites. Death is Life, Despair is Hope, etc. Dream is Reality.
>>84454666
>>84454669
I think that we need a Hypercrisis thread.
>>84454138
Map isn't to be literally taken. Placement literally only has Dreams realm and thus Darkseid ruler of Apocalypse is equal to Yaweh ruler of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Basically read comic, don't point at the map. The map is wrong in many ways.
>>84454666
...wait the whole universe is monotheistic? That can't be right.
>>84455872
Aliens only exist because Earthlings think they do. That's why they all look like people in makeup or animal parts sewn together or goo.
>>84455972
But the aliens existed before humans did. Trying to make everything the figment of human imagination is retarded.
>>84456096
They existed before we did now, but before we existed, they hadn't.
>>84454502
Recall Lucifer was a fraud and not actually the First of the Fallen so for all we know Dream could be mistaking him for the real one who actually is powerful.
>>84456222
First of the Fallen is a title that both Lucifer and the real first held for a while. Lucifer could beat Micheal. The real first couldn't to beat Gabriel. Power wise, Lucifer > first.
>>84456179
Except they did.
>>84456295
And Saint of Killers defeated Lucifer, every angel at once then Yaweh.
Saint of Killers is strongest.
>>84456400
Preacher ain't canon with the rest of the DCU
>>84455972
Nigga, you are forgeting that IN UNIVERSE they are just comic book characters.
I remember one Sandman story that had some kind of solar-based organisms.
What the fuck was that?
>>84456422
I prefer to believe that it was a joke.
>>84456422
Just as canon as Lucifer.
>>84456443
That was from this>>84456321 and they were actual suns.
>TFW Dream got cucked by a star
>>84454138
Eh. The Endless aren't really gods themselves. Gods are more like dreams made real. Then, when belief in them fades away, they return to being mere dreams again until they eventually fade away and 'die'.
Lucifer treats Christianity as being the main religion and the force that keeps creation together simply because it's currently the most "powerful" religion with "real" faith in it. If the people stopped believing in it, the religion would gradually begin to have less power over creation. That doesn't mean a religion needs to have "genuine" faith in it for the god/s in it to have power, though. So long as they're famous and remembered, they'll still retain a lot of power. See the Norse gods.
See that whole issue with the immortal woman who was doomed to always experience her miscarriage. The gods who cursed her to that fate had long since been forgotten and were mere wisps. With no one to worship or even remember them besides the immortal woman, they were only tiny wisps of their former selves.
>>84454502
That's only speaking about himself as an individual acting outside in other realms. Dream is most powerful within his own realm because he IS the Dreaming itself. Inside the Dreaming, he's much more powerful because what's real there is what he decides is real.
>>84453920
And this is just one example in the ways the Endless retroactively affect reality. Delirium also casually cursed Lucifer's half-faced follower to be who she "always" is.
>>84456422
Everything is canon. EVERYTHING
>>84456484
Well some things are nore canon than other things.
>tfw the necropolis stories-inside-a-story on The World's End
God, i love Gaiman.
>>84455972
>Aliens only exist because Earthlings think they do.
Not all beings are the result of humans believing in them. For sure, the state of humans being the dominant species on our planet is because they united as a species and dreamed of such a reality. But some beings existed without their input. The personifications of the suns, for example, or dimensions like Glory. There are also the fairies who left Earth's dimension because it was becoming less 'magical' due to humans' understanding (and thus, belief) of reality becoming more concrete.
So yeah, within the Sandman universe, just because something is a mythological figure or sci-fi species, that doesn't mean they were created by humans' dreams and beliefs. They and the power they have exist independently of humans, whether or not they believe in their existence or even know of them.
Yahweh is definitely dependent upon the people's beliefs, though. Hence why anyone could take the seat of Yahweh when it was left empty (the 2 giants who started taking credit for Yahweh's miracles in the past, literally rewriting history by making people believe they're the gods in Yahweh's religion).
>>84456321
Well they did now, but they didn't before.
>>84456650
>the state of humans being the dominant species on our planet is because they united as a species and dreamed of such a reality.
That's just cat propaganda. Human always on top.
>>84456476
>he's much more powerful because what's real there is what he decides is real.
Until the furies completely wreck the place that is
>>84456761
That only happened cause he gave into delirium and sought out a path to destruction that ended in death.
>>84453497
Time is a succesion of events. Also time isn't linear in dc, it's cubic/simultaneous and always shifting.
>>84456652
Who's to say Humans aren't the figment of an alien's imagination?
>>84456884
They are. That's why they exist as comic characters.
>>84456884
All aliens are better than us, but we always beat them. They are clearly our ideas.
>>84456761
They prefer to be called the kindly ones
>>84456761
Because he wanted to die. Also, the Furies are above the gods like the Endless. Perhaps not to the same extent as the Endless, but they're capable of exacting punishment and hurting them. At any rate, the Endless cannot really be killed. Not until all life in existence is gone/incapable of experiencing them.
Also, Dream refused to fight against the Furies. He postured against them, but they explicitly confronted him about his inaction in one of the scenes in that comic. They'd never stop until he "died" or Lyta was dead, since they were only even able to "hurt" Dream in his realm by using her (being able to dream) as a vehicle for themselves. Even then, though, they didn't even truly hurt Dream. Dream simply allowed the damage they wreaked to remain. None of the havoc they did was actually permanent or capable of persisting beyond however long Dream wanted it to. All the damage they did was Dream just an act of self-flagellation because of how much he disliked himself and wished to die.
>>84456925
Or maybe we are their horror stories.
>>84457013
But they are our horror stories.
>>84457013
Every single alien in DC by definition is objectively a character in a humans superhero story.
Dream can't retroactively change the universe, the cat went through the gate of lies dumb dumbs
>>84451293
The original series had already established that they have parents, that the older ones are generally more powerful than the youngers, and that with the exception of Destiny they are all younger than the first life.
>>84456993
>>84456761
And a tangent to this; Dream's state of being is always related to how he perceives himself. For example, that one time he actually got beat up and trapped in the Dreaming by his usurpers and had to be saved by a princess (was this a retcon? Because I seem to recall the female Dream having a fondness for being a sibling to the guys who usurped him in the first place); Desire may have been the one to send her to him, but she was simply just a creation of Dream's in the end. Dream getting subdued by some thugs was simply an excuse for him to get a waifu because of how lonely he was.
Then there are the tools he created out of the brothers who took over the Dreaming; the only reason he's so dependent on them for his power is because he gave them their power. However, if he simply decided that they didn't actually have any power and that he had always had all his strength with him in the beginning, that would be the truth. It's just like Death and her ankh. The actual objects of power they possess don't have any meaning beyond what they place into them.
>>84457138
The cat in Overture was just Desire masquerading as the cat version of Dream.
>>84454217
He is the boundary between the Overvoid and the Source Wall.
>>84457138
Delirium can. Is she stronger than Dream?
>>84454218
The sphere of the gods contain archetypes, not neccesarily gods in the conventional sense. Also the morrisonian new gods were fundamental concepts of reality too.
>>84457144
>older than the first life
Ftfy
Why did Delight become Delirium?
How did the first Despair die?
>>84454285
>>84454371
>>84454502
how would a fight between the endless and someone like lucifer even work?
>>84457135
The whole message of Sandman says otherwise.
>we are all a world of dreams and stories
>sometimes we're the hero and other times we're nothing more than a bit player in someone else's grand adventure
>>84457230
That or they're just posturing as such. Wouldn't be the first time, as gods do that all the time (trying to pretend to be as fundamental as one of the Endless) or try and incorporate one of the Endless into their mythos (Dream as Apollo, I believe?).
That said, the Kindly Ones are not part of the Endless but exist as concepts above gods as well just like them. And the First Circle too might be like the Endless.
>>84457371
Delight went through a realization (grew up) and Delirium (self-delusion) was the result. Just so you know, Delight's existence represents how happy people, everyone in existence, are just to exist. To be alive.
Adding to this, Delirium knows things outside of what Destiny knows. Things not written about in his book.
I don't think there are any clues as to what happened to the first Despair. Just that the one who caused her death is still suffering and will probably continue to do so until all of existence is dead and gone.
>>84457389
The Endless exist as conceptual entities. They can't really die, but they all have to play by the rules set down by the universe. That's why Dream or Death could be captured and trapped in some guy's basement (well, not sure if Death could have been, since she's much more flexible than Dream and might just ignore the circle; I mean, if it was that easy to capture her, the Eremite could have done something else other than just wait for the one day she chose to be human). Except for Destruction, who just fucked off. And, honestly speaking, Destruction is probably the most powerful of all the Endless simply because he personifies destruction (even though he abandoned his responsibilities). No one else can harm someone better than him, I'd say.
>>84457371
Life became self aware.
The first Blue Lantern killed him.
>>84456761
Because Dream let them. Death was all "you could just kick them out."
>>84457594
Who's the first Blue Lantern?
>>84457613
But they could still kill him when he left the dreaming right?
>>84457622
Kamina.
>>84457314
Death was born when the first life died, and Dream when the first critter dreamed.
>>84457371
Had sex.
Had sex.
>>84457652
But they had to exist before that shot tho right? Things dream and die because they exist and they exist because things need to dream and die.
>>84457647
Kill him? Probably not. Harm or trap him? Definitely.
>>84457717
They're concepts.
Destiny is the oldest of the Endless because he starts existing when the first thing (not necessarily a living thing) started existing. The Endless exist when the concept they represent does. So when the first being died, Death was there. When the first being dreamed, the Dreaming was established. Destruction, the twins Desire and Despair, and Delight/Delirium followed suit. None of the Endless existed before their concept did.
>>84454138
What's the transparent sphere opposite Nil?
>>84457818
Lin.
He doesn't like attention.
>>84457794
But if that was true than Death would be the youngest sister.
>>84457842
Non-sentient/sapient life exists. Like, the "life" on mars.
Cells and bacteria dying doesn't constitute as destruction.
>>84457794
So that time the Flash ran forward iin time to when death no longer existed as a concept, he doomed her to outlive all her siblings by demanding overtime.
>>84455872
The whole universe doesn't have to be. When Yahweh made the Earth he made it the linchpin of the multiverse.
>>84457914
Yes, actually. The last four beings to exist in the universe chronologically are her, Destiny, Tim Hunter, and Mister E. She grants Destiny rest, sends Tim back tot he present day, and forces Mister E to walk back home the long way.
>>84457842
Common misconception, Death came into being when the first life began. She is there at the start, and the end, of every life.
>>84458050
Because as death implies life, life must also imply death.
>>84458014
And she had to wait around in the total absence of life for Flash to show up then leave, because her intern couldn't catch him. What a cock up.
>>84451293
Why the FUCK isn't there a story about Desire vs Buddha?
I'd cream myself
>>84456422
Actually. In Hellblazer the demon Chantinelle and angel Tali had a baby that was taken by heaven, and if Genesis is stronger than god then that might be why Yahweh left Creation in Lucifer.
>>84458088
I would like one of Delirium and Joker.
>>84458075
And where does life begin?
>>84458088
D4 isn't doing fucking near Buddha. That's another one of D2's kids.
>>84458171
The misconception you have is about the nature of the endless. Their existence is defined by what it reflects. Death is shaped by life with the concept of mortality, Dream by reality that it supersedes/sidesteps, and so on.
The first thing that had the ability to die, by having life, created death. Quite possibly Destiny himself.
>>84458254
So who defined Destiny before Delirium existed?
>>84458303
Destiny is defined by the very universe he can't interact with.
He is both the reader and the story.
Never read Sandman. Why is it so well liked?
>>84458254
>Their existence is defined by what it reflects.
Yes, I know this.
But that doesn't mean they existed before they happened. Death exists because of life, but it's not synonymous with it. What created death was when life first experienced it.
This is your misconception. Yes, they're defined by their opposites. They exist by being contrasted against it. But they're there when the concepts they do represent actually happen. Death was there at the first death. That's her starting point. Not when something could die. That's Destiny's sthick. Possibilities (and certainties) fall under his purview.
>>84458349
It's got a nice setting.
>>84458335
So if the universe is the opposite of Destiny, then nothing is ruled by destiny, and shit isn't remotely foretold.
>>84458381
>>84458335
Destiny is contrasted against free will. The ability to choose. Destiny is predestination. What's meant to happen, what can happen. When things get uncertain, there are multiple versions of him walking around until only one is left.
>>84458375
And that's it? Dreams are that good of a setting?
>>84458349
It's a goth's wet coma.
>>84458354
>Death was there at the first death
Also at the first life. It is stated several times that everyone one and thing that lives meets Death twice. Once as they are born/spawned, and once more when they are ended. Destiny's hold on possibilities doesn't mean that he himself cant die, in fact he has been replaced by himself several times from Sandman's reading. But that he can one day die makes me think his presence is what spawns Death, as if Death only came about when something dies, Dream would be her older brother by whatever having lived having some concept of reality, even if not in a higher thinking kinda way.
>>84458416
So Destiny is defined by the Green Lantern Corps.
>>84458429
Well, one place in particular is bro-tier.
>>84458436
I thought that was The Crow.
>>84458457
Naw, that's an erotic nap by comparison.
>>84458450
Green Laterns are just will, aren't they? Everyone has a will.
>>84458499
Except Destiny.
>>84458479
Wait. Stan was a goth?
>>84458479
>South Park fanart
>Henrietta isn't fat
Boo!
>>84458522
Yes he was, in the first appearance of the Goth Kids, when he got dumped by Wendy.
I'm 90% sure it was season 7.
>>84458450
>Well, one place in particular is bro-tier.
My nigga.
It got me into G.K Chesterton.
>>84458522
Man, catch up to South Park, minus the latest season which sucks.
>>84458545
You PC bruh?
>>84458521
Nah, he has a will too. Just not free. He does things when he's meant to.
>>84458585
That doesn't sound like will to me. He could will himself to sit down, and still end up walking around if it's in his book.
>>84458534
>>84458545
Aside from the rare times I saw South Park on Comedy Central, I was only able to watch South Park online through the site. I started with what was the latest season at the time before going back and working my way to the present. Then I stopped when the site cut off my country from watching the videos on it. Never really bothered to try and find any torrents for the episodes.
>>84457622
Cloud St Walker. He's joking.
>>84457157
What female Dream?
>>84458633
Well don't go making excuses, just go watch it. Good stuff.
The Sandman - Overture 01 (of 06) (2013) (Digital) (3 covers) (Minutemen-Acan)
http://www49.zippyshare.com/v/UQIXlPhq/file.html
The Sandman - Overture 02 (of 06) (2014) (Digital) (3 covers) (Minutemen-Acan)
http://www49.zippyshare.com/v/1KCOoJUe/file.html
The Sandman - Overture 03 (of 06) (2014) (Digital) (3 covers) (Minutemen-Acan)
http://www75.zippyshare.com/v/Y3dwz3M6/file.html
The Sandman - Overture 04 (of 06) (2015) (Digital) (3 covers) (Minutemen-Acan)
http://www49.zippyshare.com/v/ZuJkDxJh/file.html
The Sandman - Overture 05 (of 06) (2015) (Digital) (3 covers) (Minutemen-Acan)
http://www3.zippyshare.com/v/QsLGcQpb/file.html
The Sandman - Overture 06 (of 06) (6 Covers) (2015) (Digital) (Minutemen-Acan)
http://www43.zippyshare.com/v/wWvBayTA/file.html
>>84458615
Well, doing a quick search, will by definition is "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action" or "control deliberately exerted to do something or to restrain one's own impulses." So even if Destiny doesn't choose what he does, he does actually act when he has to.
Then there's the one time he got into that argument with Delirium that one time when she and Dream were looking for Destruction.
>>84454079
that's stupid, fuck you and your cat theory
>>84458633
JoyBell's encodes on KAT are pretty good. HEVC really does a number on South Park's animation. Also this:
https://mega.nz/#F!3Iw0xDhL!fWIe0o9UTbPdLwR6FCMW7g
>>84454175
But wouldn't that be a measure of distance not the amount of time it took to reach said atom anon ?
>>84458726
Green lanterns are established as coming from Ion who came into being when the first living thing first moved. Ion comes also after the White Entity which came into being wifh the first life.
This would place the green lantern as younger than Destiny by a fair bit.
>>84458014
Not necessarily, like Death said she was surprised to see Tim and Mr. E because she already took them billions of years ago, the same can be said of Wally.
>>84458921
The Flash raced past where Destiny still existed. That's why he can so casually rewrite all creation. He has essentially infinite free actions outside Destiny's purview.
>>84458139
>and if Genesis is stronger than god then that might be why Yahweh left Creation in Lucifer.
Somebody didn't read the ending of Lucifer.
>>84456475
Yeah, then he gave Sol's children the rad dreams and Sto-Oa's the boring ones
and then Sol's children took Sto-Oa's children's thing and did it better
>>84458900
that's not even up for debate, we see one of the first Guardians to attempt harnessing willpower interacting with Destiny and the other Endless
>>84458789
That pic is just too much.
>>84459417
Sauce? GRIS givin' me nothin'.
>>84459433
Dark Horse Conan, I think
>>84459476
Thanks.
>>84458349
Why does anyone read anything? It has some pretty good writing and interesting characters with a bunch of spinoffs that are roughly the same quality.
>>84458349
Because it have the cutest interpretation of death.
>>84456476
what issue was that about the immortal woman?
>>84457647
>>84457719
the furys are inspired in the greek goodess, spirits of vengance that are summoned when someone kill a family member, none of them could kill their victim but they can harrass them so much they end up killing themself
Thread TLDR
H-hi? I just started started sandman. Vol 2. The doll house. Does the art get better? I know I can find out but I'd like your take on it anons.
>>84462489
Yes, it definitely gets better than the first few volumes.
I hear the art style for The Kindly Ones wasn't that well-received, though, but I liked it well enough.
>>84454371
Well, if we go by the comic, Lucifer and Gabriel were God's hand made successors. They were there before Time and Space, and groomed to eventually take God's place.
like to think of it as
Dev: God. (big G god)
Admins: Lucifer / Gaberiel
Mods: Endless + a handful of others
Janitors: gods (little g gods)
>>84462544
Lucifer and Michael, you mean. And they were Will and Power. And they weren't there before Time and Space. Destiny, Death, and Dream already existed for them.
Yahweh and all his angels are only so powerful because of the belief in their religion. It's why anyone could take the throne of Yahweh away as long as it was left empty, either by literally taking it or making people believe they're the ones responsible for all of Yahweh's miracles in the past. The power of belief in the gods being the reason why they're so powerful still existed in Lucifer, as it did in Sandman.
>>84462544
>>84462591
Also, Dream knew Lucifer before he fell.
>>84453497
Time and space are connected, you dumb idealist cunt
>>84456476
>Delirium also casually cursed Lucifer's half-faced follower to be who she "always" is
or she didn't
That's part of the fun
>>84462725
Yeah, I was going to add something like that at the end. But then realized that she probably did since I think she always follows through with what she says she's going to do to a person. So I think the uncertainty here is, "Who the hell was Mazikeen before she pissed off Delirium enough to fuck with her (him?) like that?"
>>84462713
Space isn't even the proper name. It's Night. The Greek Nyx (probably like how Dream is Apollo). She doesn't so much as personify space as she does the primordial darkness and all that implies.
>>84462591
Oh god yes, my bad just finished reading Hellblazer
>>84462600
And there was someone waiting for him in hell already when he fell.
>>84462591
>The power of belief in the gods being the reason why they're so powerful still existed in Lucifer, as it did in Sandman.
And recall Constantine explains that 99% of why magic works is because people believe it does and any asshole can do it.
>>84462511
I could tell right away that I'd like the writing, and the art definitely has its moments even in the first 2 volumes. But sometimes it seems a bit rushed and awkward. Admittedly so, at least by Gainman's accounts; however, I'm not sure whether he was talking about the art or the writing. Or both. Probably both.
Has anyone ever drawn a connection between Kant and this comic? If they did, expanded on it in any way? It just occurred to me. Any philosofaggots here?
>>84463061
And the reason why ANYONE is stuck in hell is because they think they should be there or that there are forces that prevent them from leaving.
It's like trying to piss on the floor next to your bed. I mean, you COULD do it, yeah. But you've got a mental block that stops you from going through with it that you have to surpass. But you CAN piss next to your bed if you really intend to.
>>84456462
Preacher has no effect. In Preacher the devil is was killed hundreds of years ago. You even said it yourself.
If DC eventually decides to end their run of comics, I'd like it to be Death just watching all the heroes and villains die and then turn off the lights.
>>84458669
Thank you friend !
>>84462760
Other way around.
The old civilizations could only grasp at what it is. They called it Night. Nyx. Whatever. In reality, the 'behind the veil' answer is Space.
>>84463430
I wasn't saying her true name was Nyx, anon. Simply that it was one of the names she was likely called with. That's why I brought up Dream being known as Apollo and equated with the gods of the Greek/Roman pantheon.
Was it stated that her name is Space or is that your own interpretation? Because she doesn't so much represent space as she does darkness and emptiness. What was there before the beginning and what will still be there after the end. Space isn't really what she represents. This should be clear considering her offer to Dream, to let it all just go and return to her. Or the fact that she's accompanied by Dusk. As in, the "dusk of man". Why do you think they hang out together?
>>84455872
Earth is the literal center of all creation thanks to the crisis during the 80's. Earth gets dibs.
>>84457794
Then Destiny should be older than his parents.
>>84464510
Why? Destiny should only exist when there IS something that can have a destiny/fate. Even an object, I suppose, would do.
But Night and Time continue to persist beyond that. Just because no one or thing is there to observe it, it doesn't mean it isn't happening. Reality continues beyond your consciousness of it. If you don't believe that and think reality only exists so long as we're conscious of it, then it is how existence operates in the setting.
>>84451293
>I don't like how he said the Endless had parents
That was weird yeah.
>and established a hierarchy.
That was always there. Destiny was born first, Death second, Delirium last.
>>84451470
Wasn't it Time and Night?
...Fuck am I just stupid?
>>84453497
Gots a bit of an Ego on you dontcha
>>84456839
I appreciate you posting this every Samdman thread for the benefit of the uninitiated.
>>84456761
I misread that as furries and thought you were on about the cat story.
>>84462760
So that's what happened to the Primordial Darkness equal to God after it owned most of Hell, Dr. Fate and the Spectre, then called a truce. It decided to be a woman.
>>84457371
>Delirium
Best theory I've seen is the discovery of narcotics. Wild pigs started eating shrooms. Might be too literally though. There's also >rape but it sounds fucking stupid to me. Like, the Rugrats are all Angelica's imaginary friends stupid.
>Despair
Oh some guy died in the Middle East, circa 30 AD. The details are fuzzy.
>>84458349
DEEPEST
LORE
>>84458349
No but seriously get on that shit it's one of the greatest comics of all time and a wild metaphysical conceptual ride throughout.
>>84458789
>tfw nobody came when I storytimed that issue
Before I immerse myself ITT can I get clarification: GOD is still at the top of the hierarchy, right? Above all this Papa/Momma/Baby-Endless stuff? I distinctly remember them crediting him with their existence in one of the early issues.No I'm not saying literally pic related from Lucifer I presumed he's just an aspect or avatar or something.
>>84465866
Gaiman usually doesn't address it directly. He seems to indicate that the presence that the Angels and Lucifer served are a higher power, actual god, than the traditional Norse/Greek/whatever gods, but doesn't specifically identify him as the judeo Christian god, or outright say that he actually is the ultimate power or whatever
>>84463061
The most definitive reference to how DC magic works is still probably Books of Magic. It shows powerhouses like Zatana and illusionists like John right next to each other, and sort of implies that belief is just one more power source.
>>84463111
Moore came the closest to doing that. But basically no.
t. drawthread
>>84454742
Best start believing in Hypercrisis threads.
YER IN ONE
>>84455872
That's the point of Aquinas's Prime Mover idea. There might be other cosmically powerful entities or forces in the universe but there is only one "God".
>>84458536
It wasn't until years later that I realized the Fiddler's Green was Chesterton. It's so goddamn obvious but I hadn't even heard of him until I graduated college.
>>84462760
>She doesn't so much as personify space as she does the primordial darkness and all that implies.
#DaveSimWasRight
>>84453633
Wat? God of the Covenant and other prominent figures like Fenriz or Endless aren't powered by belief. They just are, they're constants of the universe.
>>84467455
It existed way before that, Parmenides and Plotinus both talk about that and then Anselm of Canterbury builts his logical argument (much better than Aquinas Ways in my opinion) on that notion of necessity of one and only one most perfect being. The very idea of God dictates it (Si Deus Deus est, Deus est - If God is God, God is), that's why there can be Thor, Highfather and Bast (all gods) and Presence in the same universe and nothing is really off.
>>84463702
The she was represented in the art. She appaeared, rarely, but mostly it was the space in which Sandman moved.
I interpreted darkness and emptiness as space. Well, yeah, that's what I understood myself, what always was - Space. If there was no space, there was no space in which to start things. Like Yog-sothoth in Lovecraftian lore. I do concede to the last points, though. Dream is part of the night, but again, when I first read it, I thought she meant that the part of him that is outside her control, in a sense. The Dreamlands, the isle of Morpheus. Again, Dusk is a conceding point in my argument, I give into that.
bumpity
>>84467185
>>84471836
Where do you think we are?
>>84473537
Tori Amos best girl
>>84463702
Morpheus is literally a Greek god, he doesn't need to be equated with Apollo.
I can't remember him being equated with Apollo. He just replaced him as Orpheus' father.
>>84475031
You're right, it's my mistake. I was too concentrated on the raven Dream had at that time, with Augustus Caesar hearing who the raven was and thinking Dream was Apollo. But Dream denied he was Apollo when I rechecked it.
But yeah, Dream is the Greek Morpheus, that's right.
>>84454285
Morpheus didn't. Morpheus and Daniel aren't immortal, Dream is.
Morpheus was killed by the furies.
>>84457585
why did i think that despair killed herself... :/
>>84475205
Well, Morpheus wasn't really killed by them. He asked Death to take him away.
>>84458349
It's a Swamp Thing rip-off (Moore's run) in a candy-coated narrative
>>84475889
I'm to vol 5 of moores swamp thing. Where is sandman ?
>>84463430
Nah, I don't really see Nyx being the primordial goddess of space. Tartarus would fit the bill more. Though I suppose it depends on how you conceptualize space, I suppose your getting that idea from thinking of space as the night sky.
Though Nyx confuses me about what she's actually meant to be, especially with Erebus hanging around as well.
>>84475718
I was taking it that he was already dead then. I might have to have another read.
>>84476375
Yeah, Dream was moping about on some rocks and Death arrived. Then the Furies came around to continue bothering him, but Death told them to fuck off. Then she held Dream's hand and took him away.
I don't remember saving this...
Anybody have a source?
>>84465450
>>I don't like how he said the Endless had parents
>That was weird yeah.
They were tangentially mentioned in the series, The Wake iirc.
>>84478503
Grant Morrison's The Just
>>84476292
>Though Nyx confuses me about what she's actually meant to be, especially with Erebus hanging around as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjtkWZ1uCXo
>>84454079
You do not understand uncertainty.
>>84458987
Yes I did. Lucifer and god both leave creation at the end of it.
>>84457585
The magic that captured dream only worked because he was too weakend to ignore I assume it wouldn't have worked on any other endless.
>>84479640
Neither do you.
>>84456295
Lucifer couldn't beat Gabriel either. Or at least as far we know Gabriel drew first blood.
>>84479707
It was also cast by amateurs. Thessaly kept him out of a circle with the same spell later on. Also, fuck Thessaly.
>>84479787
Dream seemed to think that Lucifer was the absolute number 2 power-wise.
>>84453633
Considering in Lucifer Yahweh created an entire dimension for Lucifer then fucked off somewhere in nothingness that no mortals could get to couldn't he just create a new dimension where people think he's the most powerful all over again?
>>84463702
In a hypercrisis thread we showed the connection in the DCU where groups of 7 have a hidden 8'th member. There are 7 Endless, all their names start with a D, Dusk is the 8'th Endless.
Didn't Gaiman say the strongest is the one that whoever is writing the story believes is strongest?
>>84465667
I interpret Space (the mother of the endless) to be the Darkness of the universe formed by god during creation, the Primordial darkness was what existed before god created everything and had to lock it away in order to get to work. Think God and Amara in Supernatural as an example.
>>84480059
>Supernatural
I don't watch /tv/ shit. Use a better example.
>>84468713
Darkseid is.
>>84451293
Are Mephisto and The First of The Fallen the same person? They look really similar.
>>84480243
No. They're from separate publishers who don't like each other. Not that Mephisto being absolutely and eternally livid at John Constantine wouldn't be a hoot.
>yfw new GLA comic
>>84456476
>Lucifer treats Christianity as being the main religion and the force that keeps creation together simply because it's currently the most "powerful" religion with "real" faith in it. If the people stopped believing in it, the religion would gradually begin to have less power over creation.
Citation, please. I read all of Lucifer and do not remember any of this. Sounds more Marvel-y.
>>84454138
Anyone have the screencap of the post I made in the nascent Hypercrisis thread about how each of the spheres and boundaries has an Endless associated with it?
>>84481984
Do you remember the abortion baby ghost Lucifer used? The one he used during his quest to save Elaine's soul (her friend being an extra)? Or when the angels first invaded the Lux and he had the ghost baby waiting with its mouth open for them? The ghost baby that became a powerful monster because of repeatedly being born and killed in its mother's womb?
Well, what I said (what you quoted) is exactly what happened to the gods who cursed the baby and its mother to that life of theirs. They ended up being trapped into the same jar as the baby and eaten up by it.
It's also stated in Sandman by Morpheus that all gods begin in his realm (the Dreaming), "walk" for a bit in our realm (the real world), then finally return to Morpheus'.
>>84483574
>>84481984
Oh, as for Yahweh's religion being the force that keeps creation together simply because it's the most powerful religion, that's just simple deduction. The rules of the universe still work the same, and Lucifer supports it by having those 2 giant brothers attempting to take Yahweh's throne by inserting themselves into the Biblical stories. The power of belief is important for the gods of the setting. It's what actually makes them gods.
>>84483574
>It's also stated in Sandman by Morpheus that all gods begin in his realm (the Dreaming), "walk" for a bit in our realm (the real world), then finally return to Morpheus'.
The Greek gods and the New Gods seem to be different.
>>84483610
Is that why Lucy is omnipotent in the universe where he decreed no one believe in anything?
>>84483613
Then they're simply different. Not all mythological beings necessarily have to have come from dreams. The fairies, for example? I don't think they originated from the Dreaming?
>>84483641
They believed he created it. They don't worship anyone, though. They KINDA worship Elaine, though. Well, they give her thanks.
But yeah, it's not that they don't believe that someone made their universe, it's just that they're not allowed to worship and give praise to anyone as a god.
>>84454017
>time is the measurement of a series of events
That's true, but an event is also completely defined by being a discrete chunk of time. So this is sort of a snake that bites its tail.
Discrete categories are (with high probability) not existing in nature. Thus, our perception of time as units is deeply flawed but efficient for our survival.
I think Time being a parent of The Endless is fitting. Time = mental representation of everything that ever happened and will happen in the universe = The Universe (defined as existence and frame of reference, not cosmological universe). It's subjective, even if it may exist in some form in reality, so it can be part of The Endless.
>>84451293
bump
>>84487712
>no_fun_allowed.jpg
OH
