What I'm about to say is going to make me sound like an edgelord, so brace yourselves:
Does anybody else really identify with, and by extension, sympathise with Rorschach?
He's a man who's moral compass is so strong, and his sense of right and wrong so black and white, he's driven insane by it. His turning point in life is when he turned from master detective superhero into a vigilante after finding that the missing child he was looking for was raped, murdered, butchered and fed to dogs, he literally lost all faith in humanity. In the comic he talks about the kitty Genovese case, and how most people don't care about what happens to others, so long as it doesn't happen to themselves.
He feels lost in a world where we're led to believe people are good by nature, but in reality, that is not the case.
He is a person who believes that ends do not justify means, which is something I personally agree with. In the end when Adrian's plan has been executed, he is so distraught at the idea of living this lie, he is torn up than so many people had to die, that this new society will be built on the deaths of millions of innocents, that his best friend is willing to comply with such an evil world, he never would have been able to live in veidts utopia, he is a dead breed of person who values human life, the idea of living this lie and existing in this sick world is so painful for him, he practically begs to be killed and taken off this godforsaken planet.
Rorschach is introduced to us in the story as a maniac, a twisted deranged person.
But in the end he turned out to be the most good-hearted and human of all of them.
>>84085465
>He is a person who believes that ends do not justify means
He does though which is the tragedy of Rorschach.
In the book where you have his report as a child you see that he agrees with Truman's decision to drop the bomb, and later he commits suicide by cop (Manhattan) and is sad he can't live up to this black and white code of morality he's been trying to build as a masked Vigilante.
>>84085465
What's the matter op, didn't get enough (You)'s when you posted this on /tv/?
>>84085465
he kills himself because he thinks Adrian is right and he can't reconcile this with his morality code
>>84085465
Rorshach's entire problem is he started out pragmatic and willing to make comprimises to do the right thing and the murder+rape+kidnapping of a, what 6ish year old girl drove him insane due to his inability to stop it.
He has has an obsession with strength, with being masculine. To the degree he bluntly ignores the fact that the world has no room for black and white morality. The ends don't justify the means but the moral system he's come up with has no room for being human in.
He couldn't cope with his own weaknesses and basic humanity so he discarded his humanity and refused to comprimise to create a world that's...you know habitable for normal people.
Sympathizing with him is fine I guess but he's barely human by the time he enters the narrative in watchmen and that's a deliberate choice on his part.
>>84085790
>/tv/ poster on my beloved /co/
get out
the only part of the movie I remember is the sex scene
>>84086054
Armchair psychoanalyst get out
>>84085465
He is 5'6" like me so yeah I sympathise with him a lot.
>>84086054
>to create a world that's habitable for normal people
>>84085790
This is actually a copypaste that's been around ages. I don't know why OP put it here, maybe it puts his feeling towards the character into words perfectly.
You browse /tv/?
Get out.
>>84085465
>Does anybody else really identify with, and by extension, sympathise with Rorschach?
Like 80-90% of people who read Watchmen thought Rorschach was the hero of the comic. 'Cause he is. Alan Moore has lamented afterwards that it didn't come out like he hoped he would, but I'm going to call bullshit on that because he's way too experienced a storyteller to fail to notice that R is consistently presented as the moral centerpoint of the comic.
>>84085465
>>84086792
>paranoid psychopath who can't deal with the world not being black and white so he kills himself
>"moral centerpoint of the comic"
How could ANYONE think that unless they were also a paranoid psychopath? Rorscach was also hypocritical as fuck by endorsing nuking japan and letting Moloch off the hook because he had cancer.
>>84086999
He wasn't a psychopath though, technically his condition was the polar opposite.
>>84086339
>character confirmed manlet
>all that pent up aggression and macho bullshit as a result of height insecurity and inferiority
shorties stay mad
off subject, but who hopes Rorschach retroactively didn't actually get killed in the end of the book by Dr. Manhattan, but just transported to post rebirth DC
OP, his values are bullshit for exactly the reason you describe.
If the ends don't justify the means and you value human life, you can't go around killing people. Either the ends DO justify the means and it's okay to kill people to save people, or the ends DON'T justify the means and you have to rein in your passion to do "justice" in exchange for due process; or you don't value human life and just put your own ego above other people's lives. But if you both value human life and say the ends don't justify the means, you can't go around killing people.
In both cases what he's doing is just a small scale version of what Veidt is doing. His character is basically an angsty teenager who built a self-contradictory ideology to justify his anger (hint hint Randroids)
>>84086304
>Armchair psychoanalyst get out
It's correct though.
I'm an amoral nihilist. I hated him.
I'm also a utilitarian humanist so I rooted for and identified with Ozymandias in the end.
At least he went down with his "honor" in tact. Or something. I hated him less for that.
>>84085465
>pasta
fuck off, please just fuck off
>>84087429
But he's killing people he's deemed evil, they made their decision, he believes they deserve to die.
He's doesn't believe ends justify means in the sense that he doesn't agree with: Killing millions of innocents to potentially save billions of innocents.
He doesn't agree with making human life a matter of mathematical equations.
>>84086563
I have no idea who this guy is, but he sounds like a fucking faggot.
>>84087645
Then why did he say that nuking innocent Japs to for the greater good was a good thing?
>>84086792
I can't see someone thinking that unless they were put on the spot and asked who was the hero and Rorschach was the first person to come to mind because he's the first character we're familiarized with. We're given a lot of background on him, but unless someone stops reading before the halfway mark, there's no way you can identify him as the hero. By the end, it's clear he's just an embodiment of one view of morality, which, literally and figuratively, can't survive in society.
>>84087596
You are an amoral nihilist, a utilitarian humanist and a walking talking oxymoron.
>>84087596
I disagree. He didn't go down with his honor in tact. He realized observing his view of morality would result in a greater evil than compromising it and sought death instead of reassessing his perspective, which is the coward's way out.
>>utilitarian humanist
>>amoral nihilist
seriously, pick one. Are you a depressed robot or a celebratory one?
>>84087645
>he doesn't believe the ends justify the means
>he values human life
>it's okay to extra-judiciously kill criminals
That's called a contradiction,, anon.
If the ends don't justify the means then you can't justify extra-judiciously killing people "because they're evil".
>>84088232
Can't you see? He's a nihilist and a humanist, he's amoral and a utilitarian!
He's an idiot who doesn't understand contradictions.
>>84087773
That's the thing, his viewpoints took a 180 later in life. Had he been a kid when Ozy enacted his plan, he probably would've agreed with him.
>>84086792
There is no moral centerpoint, that's the point. All these "heroes" be crazy
Don't mistake someone having a black and white view of the world as having "strong moral values." Having strong morals means knowing when to compromise for the good of others
For instance, you can acknowledge that what Oz did was wrong without instigating a nuclear apocalypse
>>84088670
no he still respects Truman, it's like one of his first lines. as >>84088698
the point is they're all fucked up
>>84087773
Because he was a fucking kid when he wrote that. The Nips were warned in advanced to surrender anyway.
Did any of the millions of people Adrian murder know that a genetically engineered psychic bomb squid was going to blow up in the middle of NYC?
>>84086054
>he's barely human
>"As long as there is life, there is hope"
Go fuck yourself
>>84085919
Glad someone else gets it.
I hope you realize that Alan Moore hates it when people "identify" with Rorschach and thinks anyone who does so is a fucking nutcase.
>>84085465
Certainly not gonna side with the faggot that killed millions for temporary peace. What kinda queer wears a circlet anyhow?
>>84088232
>Sacrificing yourself for the good of humanity
What he did took a great deal more courage than what Adrian did.
>>84090687
What about what I said implied he "sacrificed" himself?
Also, what he did did not take more courage than Adrian. That in itself is a matter of opinion so I can't say that's wrong, but designing and following through on a plot to kill millions of people to avoid the death of billions, with even a literal god there who could foil your plans should you commit even the smallest error takes a pretty hefty pair of courage stones.
>>84087233
That raises some interesting questions...
>>84085465
I like Rory because it pisses Alan Moore off that I like Rory.
>>84090042
Why would I care If a nut thinks other people are nuts?
>>84093289
I wanna see a pic of the question being killed by captain atom
>>84086999
>Moloch off the hook because he had cancer.
Off the hook for what?
By this time he was a free man, having served his sentence, and was working for one of Veidt's dummy companies. He wasn't wanted by the police for anything. You think because he had a bottle of Laetrile, Rorschach, or the cops would have anything to do with him?
You're put of your fucking tiny mind, kiddo.
rorschach is 100% correct in the movie
>>84088117
>I can't see someone thinking that
You obviously weren't around back when the book came out.
All the angsty teens and the social misfits were crazy about Rorschach. He was "totally awesome cool!!!" He was the next Wolverine in some people's eyes
The rest of us recognized what Moore was doing with the character. And we knew that the idea was that none of the "good guys" in the book were truly "good".
(In the sense that Superheroes were intrinsically pure and righteous and without blame. Thus the deconstruction of the archetype.)
>>84087596
>>84088232
>in tact
Fucking morons.
>>84093298
>I like Rory because it pisses Alan Moore off that I like Rory.
What are you, like 5 years old or something?
>Rory
Yeah I thought so.
>>84086054
If her body was fed to dogs and never recovered, how do we know she was raped?
Plotholes ahoy, Alan Moore is a hack.
You identify with a homeless sociopath who thinks the mask is his real face, is filthy and mooches off his best friend that he constantly berates, that can not accept the changes in the world which does not function on his insane little black and white premise and that hates women because they are a "distraction"?
If you really identify with Rorscharch, you are the kind of person that will kill people in a nightclub next. Comedian was more human than Rorscharch.
>>84093858
this is fucking leftist crap spit all over the thread
>>84085465
4chan.org/pol/
>>84085919
>>84090019
I always read it as less that he thinks Adrian is right, and more that it'd be wrong to undo world peace to expose the truth. He can't reconcile the two, so, suicide.
>>84093905
I'm as far from left as possible, but everything that was said there was right. Roscharch was cool, but he was nowhere near a good guy, or someone anyone should ever identify with.
>>84093858
>t hates women because they are a "distraction"
That's not why he hates women.
>>84093956
I thought it was more he realized he was going to die. He failed. Everyone was against him. There was no way they'd let him get the word out.
Not a good day.
How dense is Moore, seriously? Rorschach walks into the bar, everyone collectively shits their fucking pants.
Of course readers end up thinking he's a badass.
>>84094438
I guess he thought making him a smelly sexless manlet would've done the trick.
>>84094438
>manlet walks into a bar.
>Snickers all around.
>>84094438
I honestly wouldn't believe anything Moore says post 2000, he's become super self depreciating, and ever since movies have been made from his most famous books, he's grown to loath everything he's ever made, he's a guy who believes comics should be comics, movies movies, books books etc. He hates adaptation, which is highly hypocritical seeing as how he made the league of extraordinary gentlemen.
Recently he's said he regrets making watchmen because it ushered in a new age of dark comics and that he dislikes the killing joke and that it's a heap of shit and anybody trying to read into it is on a wild goose chase.
He basically shuts down any praise his works get.
So when people admire Rorschach, he says rorschach was constructed to be the epitome of everything wrong with the world, and anybody who likes him is deluded. Which is wrong considering he was written as being super sympathetic and as the opposition to ozy, who's written as an evil narcissist. He's just trolling at this point. Rorschach even gets the last laugh.
It's funny because watch men's artist, Dave gibbons who had lots of input on the characters has the opposite opinions to Moore. He liked the movie and supported the prequel comics.
Brian Bolland, the killing jokes artist said TKJ was the best comic he ever worked on.
Moore is just jaded.
He ever said that anybody who ever bought any of the watchmen prequels is a parasite and not a true fan of the original. So, yeah.
>>84093858
> it's better to be a crazy rapist than a crazy man of justice
Ok.
>>84085465
>But in the end he turned out to be the most good-hearted and human of all of them.
Not really. He was a sick man, raised by terrible people, dumped in to a system that only barely ensures survival until adulthood, and left to his own devices such that he became a serial killer who only got away with it because he killed some really terrible people.
>>84093858
He was probably a better person than you, with the exeption that he killed criminals and rapists.
>>84095838
Just how old and/or autistic are you?
>>84085465
This may be pasta but i agree with you op
>>84095341
I agree with the last statement though
>>84093858
You missed the part where you see his upbringing? He was dealt the shittest hand imaginable. He's seen the worst shit we humans are capable you wonder why he has a black and white morality. Because he has seen the black that's for sure. He stared into the abyss too long and instead of making him a nihilist asshole like the Comedian it made him dedicate his life to fight it.
Guys like you are like his psychiatrist; fat, wealthy. Thing you have the world figured out from the comfort of your suburbs.
>>84095341
Bollocks.
>>84096030
>made him dedicate his life to fight it.
For all the good that did him or his world.
>>84096043
Blame the whores and politicians
>>84096041
How is it bollocks? Have you been keeping up with Moore's craziness as of the last ten years?
>>84095341
>ozy, who's written as an evil narcissist.
Maybe if you watched the movies instead of reading the book.
>>84093854
Rorschach finds her panties in the furnace. It seems pretty implied that she was raped.
I identified with him very strongly when I was about 18 years old.
My worldview has shifted a lot since then.
Now I think he's an emotionally stunted dipshit.
>>84085465
I like Rorscharch (i read only the comic). He was a true hero.
Ozymandias was evil.
>>84085714
I didn't remember that.
On what info he bases his decision about the bomb ? Why did he approve of it ?
>>84097308
That doesn't imply rape. That implies they threw her clothes, the evidence, into the furnace.
>>84097229
How is he not a narcissist in the books?
>>84101287
How is he? And how is he an evil one?
>>84097229
>>84101326
>Tries to take the reigns of Metropolis' Crimebusters idea
>Starts his master stroke and personally murders Comedian to spite him
>Only regards Doc Manhattan's opinions on his plan since he's the only person who can beat his 'Smartest Man in the World' title
>Conviniently doesn't even think about the affects of joining people through fear because he's so caught up in 'saving humanity'
>You think I don't feel bad for all those people I killed? I feel SO bad. You have know idea. So so bad.
Dude was full of himself. They exemplified it in the movie but he was still up his own ass in the comic.
Evil is subjective though.
>>84101437
None of what you've described suggests narcissism, except we're you've slanted it to suggest that.
>>84101285
>being stripped naked against her will after being kidnapped doesn't imply rape
>>84101516
It doesn't. The dogs can't eat clothing, so she had to be naked.
>>84088117
All the characters exemplify an ideology, but Rorsharch is the only "heroic" one.
Comedian is a nihilist.
Dreiberg is a passive man-child.
Manhattan is alien.
SIlk Specter is more of a second role, and is almost only explored through her relationship to the three characters above.
Ozy... maybe heroic in his own way, but I don't see anyone identifying or sympatising with a perfect, hyper-intelligent megalomaniac.
Rorcharch is as flawed as the rest of the team, but he presents the heroic qualities found in most capes. The others don't.
It's no surprise that he can come out as a "positive" figure in this comic.
>>84101525
So you're saying this guy kidnapped a girl and chained her to his heater with the sole intention of killing her?
>>84101526
Ozy is utilitarianism, or pragmatism. And all characters, Rorschach included are deconstructions of super-heroic ideals.
>>84101630
I'm saying there's nothing that explicitly implies rape. Why does there need to be? He kidnapped a girl and fed her to dogs. That's evil enough.
Also he kidnapped her to ransom her. He thought she was from a rich family.
Obligatory
>>84085465
I, too, struggle with Aspergers, OP.
>>84101256
Because his mom didn't like Truman. Literally.
>>84101688
But right is existentialism
>>84101525
The dogs might not eat clothes generally speaking but that doesn't mean they can't digest them - wolves and bears are perfectly capable of eating non-nude hikers, campers, etc.
>>84101725
But right is absurdism.
>>84101437
>>Starts his master stroke and personally murders Comedian to spite him
It's been a long, long time since I've read Watchmen, so I'll admit I might be wrong, but didn't he kill the Comedian because the Comedian knew of his plans and might've gone public with them?
>>84101744
Wolves and bears do not eat the entire hiker, which is exactly what he wants the dogs to do. Wolves and bears also tear off the clothing. We never see him take her cloths off so maybe this is exactly what happens, the dogs rip her clothes and later he burns the evidence.
Anyway none of this implies rape directly.
>>84101326
>extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
How does that not describe a man who murdered millions because he thought he saw the writing on the wall and decided to take the reigns of the world?
>>84101767
There's implication it was also petty revenge for beating him up when he mistook him as a criminal in his early days.
>>84085465
The problem is he values human life too much, and believes that undeserving authority fogures like the rich and god are entitled to boss people around with an iron fist. However, i did almost cry when he discover that girls leg getting chewed by dogs, and totally agree that rapists and child murderders should be killed in the most grusesome ways possible. So yeah, i partially agree with him, yet mostly am against his values.
>>84101789
Nothing you've said indicates your theory about the clothes is correct either. He could just as much put the clothes in the furnaces to destroy DNA evidence of rape.
I'm not the anon who started arguing with you about this but I'd say at best it's left up to interpretation.
>>84101813
Because it doesn't? It doesn't describe that. Those two things aren't intrinsically linked.
>>84101859
But there's nothing there to interpret that suggests rape.
>>84101894
Well it is an Alan Moore comic
>>84101503
He's the smartest man in the world and his actions make it seem he's not too humble about it. He fails to grasp the miniscule impact of regular crime fighting on a grand scale despite being so worldly and smart and takes out the man who shoves that fact in his face though you could pass that off as taking care of any risks to his plan. He regards no one else's opinions on his actions to take the lives of millions except for a seemingly godlike entity. Makes it show just how sure of himself he is and it's even more apparent when he finally feels doubt just after Jon says his final words on the matter.
>>84101866
He did it all because he believed he was the greatest, it was all about his ego even if he tried to sell it as for the good of humanity.
>>84085465
...I don't think I agree with that assessment.
Nobody in this story is completely good or completely evil.
Rorschach himself said that there is no God and therefore we all are completely, terribly free to put our own stamp of morality on the world. He sees it black and white, no compromise - but that's not entirely true. During the story he shows the faintest glimmers of humanity.
When he chides his former landlady because she lied about his behaviour to the press, he shows mercy to her out of compassion for her kids.
And I don't think he's distraught at the lie. I think he realized the same thing the Comedian did: Veidt's plan has to succeed. Veidt is a worse criminal than any they have ever faced, and the greatest hero - because he (maybe?) saved humanity in the only possible way. This must have been the only valid option - Ozymandias is the smartest man in the world, after all, and if he had seen an alternative route, he would have taken it.
But Rorschach could not live that way. So he chose death as the preferable option.
"he is a dead breed of person who values human life"
That is a silly thing to say.
If you were faced with a choice to murder a man or to spare him, but as a result a thousand people would die, INCLUDING the man you refused to murder - would you fail to murder the man?
Rorschach apparently wanted to reveal the truth, putting the lives of those thousand people at risk again even though the first man had already been murdered.
He is a street-level vigilante. This is above his pay grade.
>>84101935
But most of that is your conjecture and opinion on his actions. Nothing he does shows extreme narcissism. The most you could say is he's very confident in his abilities, but seeing as he technically accomplishes that he's justifiably confident.
>>84101958
Again, this is just an opinion.
>>84086241
The movie isn't all that great.
>>84086563
Amazing how that makes both Kenshiro and the writer denouncing him seem like total faggots.
Not in the good way, either.
>>84101989
His entire character arc is all about how he can't accept someone (John) being better than him
>>84085465
I used to have a friend that would say "hrmmm" all the time, and talk in disjointed sentences
>>84087429
>you can't go around killing people.
I think he killed two people in his vigilante career.
Including the fucker who fed the little girl to his dogs.
>>84086792
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_(comics)#Publication_history
Mmmyeah...
>>84101287
>>84101437
He's a narcissist, but he's not evil.
>>84102026
This isn't true, and isn't the same as narcissism.
>>84087596
>I'm an amoral nihilist. I hated him.
How the fuck does a nihilist hate anything?
>>84087773
>innocent Japs
...Actually, if they hadn't nuked Hiroshima, the Russians would have invaded. And boy oh boy, if they had had a choice...
>>84088232
You can only change so far before death becomes a reasonable alternative.
>>84102137
Why do you think nihilism stops you from hating things?
>>84085465
Do you wish to spread good hope, beauty and peace wherever you go, OP?
>>84093748
...NOBODY is 100% correct in the movie.
>>84093858
>Comedian was more human than Rorscharch.
At least Rorschach had the decency to be a mumbling lunatic. Comedian saw what a shithole the world was and instead of being bitter about it, he delighted in it.
Or is that exactly what you meant?
>>84095341
>He ever said that anybody who ever bought any of the watchmen prequels is a parasite and not a true fan of the original.
Well...
>>84101287
Narcissists look at themselves. He looks at the world.
>>84099034
Do you still identify with him, though?
>>84101212
Yeah, that horrible Ozymandias! Imagine, saving humanity!
>>84101688
They're both true. I mean, the philosophy is the same, the rest is character.
>>84101706
What has any Asperger ever done to you??
>>84102026
I think you read a different novel by mistake. For one thing, there is no character called "John" in 'Watchmen'.
>>84102284
If nothing in life matters there's no reason to be said about it like on the left.
>>84102155
>John
>John's character arc ends with the casual decision to create life
>Ozymandias models himself after an Egyptian pharaoh, who were believed to be gods
>Ozy's entire character arc was focused on creating life that ultimately failed
>>84102032
Was his name Herbie Popnecker?
>>84102155
...A kneejerk reaction, I guess, as in "Nothing matters, ergo you can't attach emotional value to anything".
>>84102333
Unless you are naturally pessimistic and/or depressed.
>>84102322
>nitpicking an extraneous H
>>84102338
????
>>84102343
Yeah but those are immediately linked. Nihilism is just the base belief that ultimately nothing matters. There are a lot of ways people can interpret that. Absurdism and Existentialism are both, in a way, forms of nihilism.
>>84102381
That first line was supposed to be "Jon is a God"
>>84102374
Then do it right the first time.
>>84102381
It just seems off to get angry at stuff in that context.
>>84102472
Again, ???
Why are you telling me this
>>84102480
It might seem that way, and maybe there are nihilists who follow that belief, but there's no reason that nihilism automatically means you can't get angry at stuff.
>>84085714
He also ignores the fact that the Comedian violently sexually assaulted the Silk Spectre, although when legislation came out forcing vigilantes to retire, he left a dead multiple rapsit next to a police station with a note stating "Never!".
>>84102589
Well he didn't know the Comedian was Eddie Blake, and it's possible he never read the original Night Owl's book and therefore doesn't even know.
Or maybe he thinks unless she went to the cops or something he doesn't have any reason to think the Comedian is guilty
>>84102528
Evidently.
>>84102589
Yeah, they never did explain how he came to idolize the Comedian like that, did they?
...I-is that explored in 'Before Watchmen'?
>>84101688
>>84101725
>>84101745
Could be, it depends, it seems to me it's more likely a form of hedonism.
>>84102528
Oh whoops my bad
>>84102480
make me
>>84102755
If it has "Nothing in Life matters" in it, it's definitely a form of nihilism. Hedonism has no direct links to that belief.
>>84101745
Absurdism is more of a literary movement than philosophy
>>84102769
It doesn't matter. I've been watching you flail around. You're not making any valid points, it's all based off opinions and you guessing toward what you want to see. And still no link to Narcissism
>>84102791
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism
>>84101680
It's also by Alan "everyone's getting raped" Moore so I'd say the chances it was supposed to be implied is a pretty good chance
>>84102841
Maybe it was. But it wasn't, because there's nothing there to directly suggest it. And making assumptions like that isn't a strong argument, or any kind of argument.
>>84102032
>used to have
In what sense, exactly?
>>84102814
If still thinking you know better than everyone else how the world should work, even in the face of an actual god that can see the future, isn't narcissism, I don't know what is
>>84102879
With the arguments of the other anons I feel like its enough. At least an argument with more substance than "it's not explicitly said"
>>84102787
But look at the picture. Hedonism and Nihilism certainly can go hand in hand. The purists hedonists are incredibly apathetic. The pursuit of their own pleasure is important, but the consequences of their actions and any responsibility they have are not their own.
in watchmen they parody 80's business men as apathetic hedonists, not true nihilists no, as they have agenda's and goals. Adrian subverts this by actually being and feeling more responsible to act and change the world because of his power and ability to do so.
I don't think anyone in Watchmen is really a nihilist. I know people may say comedian was, and for a time I suppose, the last few years of his life, prior he supported causes to change and enforce will over people.
Dr.Manhattan explores it, but ultimately acts in favor of life.
and Rorschach..... is pretty damn far from a nihilist it's absurd.
>>84103107
You clearly don't know what narcissism is. That's the problem with our entire conversation. Plus you're reading into motivations and belief systems that aren't there.
>>84103186
I guess I don't, but Adrian's character is very much set up as an opposite to Manhattan
>>84103164
Okay you are talking about something that I am not talking about, and I have no desire to get into the can of worms you just opened. It does not involve me in anyway, and at no point do I see you disproving my basic argument, which is that hedonism and nihilism are not necessarily linked.
>>84103211
Er not an opposite, a parallel
>>84103164
Hedonism doesn't involve the "nothing matters" part
>>84103162
Then you're ignoring the fact of the matter and focusing on what you personally want to believe, even if it has not basis in reality. Which it does not.
And the other anons did not in fact have any arguments beyond "it probably happened because I think it did" which is essentially what you're saying.
>>84103235
And maybe he is. But that doesn't automatically make him a narcissist.
>>84085465
>He's a man who's moral compass is so strong, and his sense of right and wrong so black and white, he's driven insane by it
No he isn't. He's a traumatized little boy who was so mentally deficient he latched onto a simplistic moral outlook because he couldn't conceptualize a world where his mother was wrong for beating the 'bad' out of him. He's Norman Bates as a pudding cup lover turned hero.
>>84103267
but nothing does matter in hedonism, especially if you are satisfied. That image shows a please person saying "nothing matters". We're talking watchmen, looking deeper to the art connected to the words is important in topics like this.
What would his thoughts be on the refugee crisis?
>>84103410
Pleasure matters in hedonism. Life is the pursuit of pleasure in the hedonistic philosophy. It's the point of life. And is therefore not inherently nihilistic, although I agree that certain forms of nihilism can lead to hedonistic behavior and modes of thought. However pure Hedonism as a philosophy isn't nihilistic.
>>84101680
He's definitely an utilitarianist.
My point is, Rorschach is the only one that remains identifiable as a hero (or as a hero proxy).
I'd say that it's because Moore based Rorschach deconstruction on the setting, and not on the character itself. In a regular cape setting, Rorschach would have been a normal hero. The others would still have their issues.
Also, the others are people first, and persona second. Rorschach is only his persona.
>>84101958
So many things going on in this panel, it's fantastic.
>>84103567
What am I looking at here
>>84085465
>He is a person who believes that ends do not justify means
>Kills people
kek
>>84103647
It looks like a crucifixion based on lines drawn, but I can't tell.
Also I thought his hands represented the doomsday clock, and how it only ticked back slightly because of his work.
>>84085919
I always saw it as him being unwilling to capitulate to Dr. Manhattan and knowing fully well that the only alternative was death. It's a very straightforward scene.
>>84101745
But right is solipsism
>>84103647
>crucifixion
>doomsday clock
>gordian knot
>the world behind him and Manhattan in front
>>84104044
No it isn't.
>>84101988
>Nobody in this story is completely good or completely evil.
The closest Character to what we think of as a "superhero" was Hollis Mason.
He became Nite Owl because he saw evil in the world and he wanted to fight it. In his 0wn words he did it because it was the right thing to do.
Of all the characters, he was the one with the good moral compass, and none of the "problems/hangups/sexual issues/bad motivations/etc". In one of the text pieces He's referred to as the "bouncy boy scout"(or something to that effect. I don't have the issue handy). He was the one that was closest to the stereotypical "Good guy".
His only "feet of clay" moment was when he voted Silhouette off the team because she was lesbian, while Capt Metropolis and Hooded Justice were allowed to stay. (unless you count the bit in Before Watchmen where he kills "hooded Justice. But that was crap, and everyone was so out of character, it shouldn't count)
>>84104278
Poor Hollis, he was too pure for that world.
>>84103273
>And the other anons did not in fact have any arguments beyond "it probably happened because I think it did" which is essentially what you're saying.
This is your exact argument for them throwing the clothes in the furnace for because the dogs are eating them.
>>84104866
That's not what the issue was. The issue was whether rape was implied, and it is not.
>>84104939
I fail to see how it wasn't and nothing you've said has persuaded me (and apparently a few other anons) that it wasn't.
>>84104986
Okay. Well then tell me, why do you think it was rape? What, in the comic, implies rape?
>>84104278
Hollis was my favorite the first time I read it. His death hurt.
>>84085465
He's also gay. Like super gay. Like ultra mega in the closet whispering to Night Owl to come in gay.
>>84085465
I've never quire understood his moral code.
How does he decide what is good and what is evil?
>>84085465
>who's
>>84085465
>He is a person who believes that ends do not justify means, which is something I personally agree with
You're either 14 or a man child.
>But in the end he turned out to be the most good-hearted and human of all of them
Manhattan was the "most-good-hearted," you stooge. The only superhuman was able to assume many different viewpoints over the course of the story while being as charitable as possible to the termites whenever possible. No one else takes a more nuanced view in the end. No one else constantly seeks to refuse power more when they are the power end-all and be-all. Smarter is smarter and better is better. Rorschach, Veidt, and Nite-Owl all needed to suck dicks and die.
>>84086563
Go back to bed Jagi
>>84106777
thats_the_point.exe
>>84085465
Deontology is the one true ethics system so yes
Rorscarch was touched in the head though, and not just because of the ethics shit
>>84106777
He doesn't
It's all already been decided, in his head
>>84085465
Saw this same thread in TV days ago
He is a parody. Alan Moore is playing with your feelings. Watch out!
>>84085465
I am one bad day away from turning into Rorschach...
>>84108432
tsh
nothing personal kid
>>84101744
last time a dog i knew ate clothing it died of a severe intestinal blockage, felt bad for the dog the guy that owned it had no reason to have pets, it ate his girlfriends panties and died because he was too fucked up all the time to care for it properly
>>84085465
I don't identify with him but I sympathize with him. Moore can say what he wants but when he decided to give Rorschach his particular backstory, he destroyed any chance of people not sympathizing with him. He's so warped by his experiences that he clings to a black and white morality to cope with the world because the enormous grey area is too difficult to deal with. His moral compass is "strong" but in a pathological way that doesn't fit into the real world.
What Adrian did fell into an enormous grey area and he couldn't handle it in the end after everything. In that respect he's essentially a more fleshed out Inspector Javert from Les Mis.
Walter believed the end justified the means
Rorschach didn't
His entire character is the battle between his two selves
That's why he removes the mask before he suicides by Manhattan, because he wants to die as Walter, not as Rorschach.
He is an incredibly tragic character and I still get depressed during that scene where he apologizes to Night Owl for being hard to handle.
And what does he get? His only friend fucking some whore while he dies alone in the snow. I thought the movie did that scene better too be honest.
>>84110984
Rorschach obviously believed the ends justified the means. Because he murdered people horribly, and tortured people for information.
>>84104278
Even not letting a lesbian on the team wasn't so bad. Gay rights is one of those things that is never argued for the right reasons. It's always feelings or religion. Rarely is it thought out. Like with blood donating, men who've had gay sex can't donate blood. It's just a statistic thing, that it helps keep the viruses out. They do this with lots and lots of specific things with blood, but people call it homophobic..... when it's simple science. It is for people's safety.
Lesbians in law enforcement have a bias against men, it's a fact. It translated to watchmen. Not letting silhouette stay on after she beat a man isn't homophobic, it's her personal bias spilling through. She was out for blood, not justice.
>>84085465
Him and Ned Stark for me.
>>84112910
the number of people infected with HIV is comparatively small enough nowadays that the ban on homosexual blood donations is a bit silly
African Americans are statistically more likely to get infected than other races, but there's not a ban on them giving blood
>>84113427
To be fair there's A LOT more African Americans than gays as well.
So a very small population with apparently a 1 in 5 chance of being infected is a much greater risk of a population more than 7 times their size with a 1 in 16 shot for men and a 1 in 32 shot for women.
>>84113427
>>84113689
Also didn't they work it back so that you can donate with a year of abstinence.
Also there's still outstanding bans on people who were in certain areas at a particular time.
>>84102657
i think it might because Blake never really stopped being the Comedian. everyone else got old and quit but he kept keeping on. for someone like Rorschach, i'd think he'd find that really admirable
>>84085465
No. Kill yourself.
>>84085465
>Rorschach is introduced to us in the story as a maniac, a twisted deranged person.
>But in the end he turned out to be the most good-hearted and human of all of them.
no he's not, he's merely part of the stark criticism/deconstruction of ""good"" vs ""evil""
the "bad guy" killed half of the largest US city so that it would bring peace to the world (paralleling rorschach as a child saying truman was just in dropping the bomb because it stopped the "bad guys" and therefore the war) and rorschach being the "good guy" with the package he sent to that newspaper before they left may have just undone all the work that ozy managed, rendering the death of millions pointless.
rorschach's black and white mentality is ripped apart by the confusing grey area of morality he currently finds himself in, causing him to breakdown and commit suicide via manhattan because everything he believes has been inverted, he literally cannot live with the realization of what he may have done, nor with what has just happened.
anyone who identifies with this man is either missing the point entirely or really fucked in the head
>>84085465
Just saying, don't you guys realize you're SUPPOSED to see a bit of yourselves in not just Rorschach, but in ALL of the characters?
I mean, like, what? How do you guys not see that? They're all supposed to be sympathetic because they're all emotionally relative. C'mon, guys.
You're SUPPOSED to see a bit of yourself in Manhattan because we've ALL felt detached and depressed every once in a while. We're ALL supposed to feel like Owl every now and then because sometimes some of us feel insecure and nostalgic. Veidt is our pragmatic side, Spectre is the side of us that's sick of pandering to other people; the whole REASON we ever feel ANYTHING about these guys is because they're SUPPOSED to be relatable.
Rorschach is edgy because he's your mild, healthy amounts of edge dialed up to 11. Nite Owl is a cuck because he's our mild, normal levels of betaness shifted into 6th gear.
C'mon, guys. This is basic, elementary stuff. Identifying with Rorschach does NOT make you an edgelord. Comparing yourself to him and saying "omg he's just liek me!!!!" IS being an edgelord.
>>84094438
badass≠hero
Any comic book villain would make a bar react the same way.
