http://comicsalliance.com/give-em-elle-grant-morrison-doom-patrol-reappraisal/
>Not everyone will agree with me, but I don’t think we should. That Doom Patrol run was groundbreaking in terms of what comics can do, and it can still be a great read, if you look past some of the clumsy elements.
>We just have to understand that it was written in a different time, when standards weren’t the same as they are now. This is the norm in every other artistic medium. Where would film history be if we cast aside everything from the past that’s offensive to modern eyes? The upside is I wouldn’t have had to watch Birth of Nation in film school, but the impact overall would be negative.
Is Doom Patrol as bad as Birth of a Nation?
Hi anons, instead of getting upset over some literally who moron's shitty opinion, how about you consider coming and reading this amazing series for yourself?
>>83938491
Birth of a nation is far more important to film than DP is to comics, Birth of a nation was the first film epic and set the standard for films in how they're shot.
>>83943306
This is like a parody of the worst trends in online criticism, which is judging works of art by how "progressive" they are, i.e. how much they confirm the critic's prejudices.
I think this type of criticism may actually have passed its peak, as websites get fewer clicks for identity-politics trolling than they did in 2014-15. But it's just awful. Just because a work is "problematic" to you doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means it's saying things that make you uncomfortable, which is the whole point of art.
>The other side of this, however, is that we can’t force things on people who can’t deal with them. I still enjoy Doom Patrol, but if somebody else says that the portrayal of mental illness bothers them too much to finish it, I’m obviously not going to argue with that. Similarly, I have no interest in rereading The Dark Knight Returns, because Frank Miller’s politics are so noxious to me, but I don’t go around telling people who still enjoy that book that they shouldn’t.
I have no problems with this assessment
>>83943478
This, pretty much. D.W. Griffith was a revolutionary filmmaker for his time, and besides the influences in cinematic storytelling that "Birth of a Nation" had, the only reason the film is remembered is because of its now-controversial subject matter. On another note: If people actually cared about film history and didn't want to offend, they'd go with "Way Down East".
"Doom Patrol" is one hell of a story and certainly pushes the comics medium forward as a platform of serious storytelling, but it's not as influential to comics structure as BOTN was to filmmaking.
If I had to give a "Birth of a Nation"/"Way Down East" comparison to some comic out there, it would likely be a comic published in that transitional period between the Golden and Silver Age. I couldn't name any specific titles, though.
>>83944070
>I have no interest in rereading The Dark Knight Returns, because Frank Miller’s politics are so noxious to me
Oh it's one of THOSE people.
>>83943994
Don't shitpost.
>>83944076
Will Eisner's spirit is probably the closest comparison, maybe superman 149 If you're talking writing. A lot of EC comics would be up there too since they hosted easily the best cartoonist from that era.
>>83944076
The thing about Birth of a Nation is that it is a) racist even by the standards of its own time, and b) making a point that most people agree is genuinely bad.
The problem with comparing everything Problematic to Birth of a Nation is that most good art isn't that clear-cut. So things are dismissed as Problematic when there is actually a lot of disagreement over what point it's making, and whether the point is wrong.
>>83944136
A comic written in the 80's by a man in his late 20's is not going to reflect the politics of that same man nearly two decades later post 9/11
People who just avoid everything Frank Miller made because of his comments on Occupy Wallstreet and Holy Terror are stupid
>>83944162
He isn't even complaining about the point of DP, he's saying that Jane is offensive because she's not an accurate portrayal of mental illness.
>>83944117
>Oh it's one of THOSE people.
Why do people think Frank is some kind of right-wing lunatic? All because of Holy Terror?
I mean, have the people never read any of books he wrote that star/feature minorities and etc.? Hell, I`m still puzzled as to why the modern left defends Islam so strongly besides an obvious "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality.
>>83944242
>Why do people think Frank is some kind of right-wing lunatic?
He's kind of like Howard Chaykin. Chakyin calls himself a " cold war liberal" not a bleeding heart. So he gets accused of leaning right
>>83944242
I think it's linked to the attitude to art criticism you see in some of these pieces. It's about identifying the less powerful/privileged group and sticking up for them.
To get back on topic, this is bad for criticism because it's really dumb to say that art is only good if it "punches up." A lot of great art "punches down" because you can't be honest if you only afflict the powerful. Good art calls out the flaws of the lower classes as much as the aristocrats, because otherwise it's not honest.
Which is another way of saying that if art never has anything that can be offensive to the designated less-powerful groups, it's probably phony and weak.
>Presents gender in a binary
>Race shown aas opposites not two overlapping parts of same thing
Isn't this th point for Negative Man? His parts aren't opposites, just parts, like the Light and Darkness of his powers.
We can apply whatever we want to the story and the characters, look through whatever lense, comparing any comic to Birth of a Nation is trash
>>83944242
>I mean, have the people never read any of books he wrote that star/feature minorities and etc
You might as well just say he has a black friend
>>83944328
>A lot of great art "punches down" because you can't be honest if you only afflict the powerful. Good art calls out the flaws of the lower classes as much as the aristocrats, because otherwise it's not honest.
Doom Patrol isn't satrical though, at least not the portions dealing with Rebis and Crazy Jane. A lot of early Vertigo has problems with overzealous writers attempting to work through new cultural shifts by lackadaisically putting them as character concepts in comics. Things like Alan Moore's Vigilante (not Vertigo but he was a precursor), Gaiman's Element Girl, Everyman, Skeemer and Shade.
Even in mainstream comics they have this issue of trying to portray progressive ideas without knowing the actual experiences, like Spider-Man's Ace and the inner city struggle, Legion of Superheroes whole Sean Erin debacle, Vermin and child rape.
I don't think it's intellectually dishonest to critic a story or author's intent to display a progressive work using a progressive rhetoric. I'll agree that not wanting to read Miller's work based on comments and ill conceived books is a bit much, but at the same time can you really police what someones doesn't want to read? Even the author says they won't stop someone from watching Birth of a Nation or Doom Patrol, just that it's up to the reader to come at the product on their terms.
>>83943414
>hating based comicsalliance
Of course "the Texas anon" has to be a right wing nut, I bet you hate mexicans too??
Even today, would 99% of people even bat an eye at any of that stuff?
>>83943306
No, because the message isn't that crazy people should be locked up or that race-mixing is bad
It is dated. Even my first time reading it I didn't like Crazy Jane at first because that simply is not how dissociative identities work. But that's okay, it's fiction.
Doom Patrol is one of the best comics ever, regardless of any of this. Honestly one should not base one's enjoyment of art on the fucking passage of time.
I find Elle Collins to be so stupid sometimes the way she reads into things. While it might be a benefit to be so considerate but saying that in Green Lantern Rebirth was showing Oliver was weak because he was liberal was the stupidest shit I've ever seen. Especially since Kyle Rayner was a major force in the series anyway and he was liberal as fuck. Elle always looks for a agenda and she tends to not think all the way through with her ideas.
I saw Elle Collins' picture.
So who brought Klaus Nomi back from the grave? I know tumblr people are ugly, but not literally-a-zombie ugly.
>>83943306
>woman has opinion
Literally who cares?
>>83944242
He's accused of being a right-wing lunatic because of Holy Terror and his dislike of Occupy Wall Street, which is funny considering he recently said he was voting for Hillary Clinton.
I think this is why I've gotten disenchanted with "progressive" comics columnists in the last five years.
>>83948057
Unless you openly shit on white men and blame us for each and every single personal problem anyone who isn't a white man has you're just not progressive enough.
>>83948057
>He's accused of being a right-wing lunatic because of Holy Terror and his dislike of Occupy Wall Street, which is funny considering he recently said he was voting for Hillary Clinton.
Let's not pretend here that Hilary is a bastion of leftist and progressive ideas here. That insults us both
>>83945813
>Elle always looks for a agenda and she tends to not think all the way through with her ideas.
She's pals with Jay and Miles, and appears on their podcast sometimes. Since Elle and Jay have decided to make a career out of being academics for gender in comics they have to read too much into everything and make up bullshit.
Miles just likes liking things
>>83944200
Why the hell does she have to have "real" multiple personality disorder? Why the hell do the DOOM PATROL have to have real anything?
The whole point is that they're super-freaks. What the actual fuck?
I'm liberal as fuck and most of the time the definition of /co/mbler but I just find CA and specifically this bitch annoying as fuck. Like there's nothing wrong with opinion pieces or pushing your agenda as long as it is well researched and properly thought out but holy fuck this site needs to die.
Also find it really ironic that these fuckstiks push so hard for muh diversity in comics, creators and other background position but I literally can't tell how many poc and different gender they themselves have employed. Anybody know? Because next time I see one of these shallow opinion pieces from this site, I want to literally call them on their bs.
>>83945605
I thought the point of Doom Patrol was that they live in a fictional world where streets could express feelings, chairs could talk and mental issues could be solved by riding a train inside somebody's mind.
>>83945215
>based comicsalliance
>>83945215
>>>>>>"""""based"""" (((comicsalliance)))
>>83943414
You're a good fellow.
