This was still a very weak interpretation of Zemo. The only interesting part of his role in the story was killing the five Hydra agent super soldiers created from the serum stolen from Howard instead of activating them, which was admittedly a good Red Herring, but outside of that he was so shitty, Baron Zemo isn't supposed to be a man with a victim complex like he was in Civil War. Clearly what happened in Sokovia wasn't Captain America's fault in any regard. I could understand him being mad at Tony, since he created Ultron, but he was just a pathetic man attempting to impose guilt on the man who saved the world from a much worse fate.
It's easy to be petty when you lose all the things you hold most dear
>>83677517
Not for men like Helmut Zemo.
>>83675628
Anon, Helmut spent the entire first phase of his career as a man out to avenge the death of his Nazi father. Switching things around so that it's avenging his dead wife/kids still works, if perhaps a bit less so because there isn't the element of Zemo inheriting evil.
>>83678523
>Switching things around so that it's avenging his dead wife/kids still works
I remember him mentioning that his father also died with the rest of his family.
I still don't understand why people think Zemo killing the Winter Soldiers was stupid. Based on what Bucky said, they weren't controllable and put on ice for a reason. There was no guarantee they would have followed Zemo or just outright kill him the moment they woke up.
>>83678523
Avenging the death of your father which was clearly at the hands of Captain America is decidedly different than blaming him for an event he risked his life to prevent. Helmut Zemo held Steve Rogers accountable for his fathers death as a matter of honor, not as a a matter of petty circumstance.
>>83678666
He clearly had no interest in Civil War in wide spread death. I can imagine that as a Sokovian Intelligence officer he was forthright and efficient as a man, and didn't take unnecessary actions that would cause the death and suffering of his enemies.
>>83679778
then why kill that hydra agent
Well, he might be of Sokovian royal descent, that would be a basis of "Baron" title, and looking to his ancestry in lieu of losing his family, thus tying him thematically to Black Panther.
But Sokovia is dead and done with storywise and is likely to never be mentioned in the MCU again unless it becomes Wundagore or something.
>>83680301
He chose his own fate out of pride and arrogance anon.
>>83675628
Think of him as an origin story.
>>83675628
>Baron Zemo isn't supposed to be a man with a victim complex like he was in Civil War
But actually, for a large part of his early appearances, this is exactly what he was. He wanted revenge for his dad.
>>83675628
>Clearly what happened in Sokovia wasn't Captain America's fault in any regard.
He wasn't going after Steve specifically. Zemo's overall intent was to permanently fracture the Avengers. It just so happens that the best way to do that happened to be creating a conflict between Steve and Tony.
>I could understand him being mad at Tony, since he created Ultron,
I could've missed something, but I'm sure no one outside of the Avengers apart from Cho and Klaue knows that. I suspect everyone in the MCU-world assumes the shit that happened in Sokovia was Hydra leftovers.
>>83683127
It was a matter of honor avenging his father, he wasn't holding himself as a victim, acting all defeated and dead inside, trying to make Captain America feel guilt and shame
>>83682749
I am, and it's still a bad origin for Zemo
>>83678320
Yeah cos he ever gets personal
>>83679778
Yep. He even didn't want to activate Bucky but this guy >>83680301 refused to talk.
>>83675628
He didn't hold Cap solely responsible for what happened. He just went with him because he knew he would go out of his way for Bucky even to the point of going against the Avengers and cause a rift in the group.
>>83679750
Your basing his motivation being unjustified entirely on your own personal view of the avengers actions.
He viewed their irresponsibility as an entity as the reason his family is dead. That you hold cap blameless and only think iron man is responsible doesn't matter. Helmut isn't a fucking mcu film audience member.
But from his perspective his motivation makes sense. These godlike beings played their games without thought of others thereby creating a situation in which his family died. Cap as the leader of said group incapable of reeling in tonys machinations would probably to a military man like zemo, render him just as at fault for what happened under his command.
>>83685567
>>83685504
Why?
It's
>muh family
That's what Zemo has always been.
>>83685665
Regardless, it's absolutely absurd to hold the Avengers accountable for the collateral damage when they saved the entire earth from destruction.
>>83685719
You forget that they created Ultron in the first place.
>>83685420
>he wasn't holding himself as a victim, acting all defeated and dead inside
lel
He literally married a woman who was supposed to the reincarnation of his dad, and he had a psychological breakdown when the Red Skull and Sin played his dad's favourite classical tunes in front of him.
Early Zemo WAS broken by his dad's death. He didn't overcome and surpass his father's legacy until the T-Bolts.
>>83679750
>a matter of honor, not as a a matter of petty circumstance
No it was driven by blind worship of his father and also of Hitler.
>>83685706
I know you've been immersed in Internet reductionism for a long time, but having a desire for revenge against Captain America for directly bringing about the death of his father after battling him for years is wholly different from holding Captain America accountable for the collateral damage caused by Ultron, when everyone on earth would have been dead including Zemo and his family if not for Captain America and the Avengers. His little guilt imposing victim narrative has no merit.
Also the insane roulette wheel gambit Zemo ran in this movie was extremely appropriate for Zemo as he was in the Thunderbolts.
Zemo likes to kick things off without necessarily having a specific step-by-step plan. He trusts that if he increases chaos, he'll have more opportunity to act and change things to suit his end. He's not a guy who plans things by the numbers, he's a guy who throws all the numbers in the air and knows he'll be good enough to grab what he needs.
>>83685799
You forget the part where Ultron was created by the Avengers, and if it wasn't for them there would have not been any incident in the first place?
>>83685799
But Ultron was made by the Avengers. The entire thing was a struggle within and caused by the Avengers that resulted in massive collateral damage, including the deaths of Zemo's family.
It's like if the police let an insane murderer loose in your street, who killed you and your neighbour's family but then was shot before he got to the next house. Would you thank the police for stopping the murderer?
(It's actually even more than that, because in this instance the murderer was made insane by a guy who regularly sold guns to a gang that shot up your street in gang wars, but then stopped for a while)
>>83685777
It wasn't at all anon. Zemo has always been his own man that differentiated himself and his ideals from his father and Nazism. He simply honored his family name
>>83685736
>>83685827
Only Iron Man and Banner are to blame for Ultron. Captain America clearly only opposed and ultimately defeated Ultron
>>83685777
>also of Hitler
Zemo cared much more about his dad than Hitler, until he got over it.
>>83685868
Scarlet Witch brainwashed Tony into creating Ultron, and Banner and Iron Man created him, plus the others didn't do anything about it until it was too late.
He blames all of the Avengers and just wants for them to destroy each other.
>>83685868
That's a stupidly reductionist point of view. The existence of the Avengers allowed for Ultron. Cap - The First Avenger - is the leader of the Avengers. He's the biggest symbol among them. Zemo wants to destroy all of the Avengers by turning them against each other.
>>83685892
>Scarlet Witch brainwashed Tony into creating Ultron, and Banner and Iron Man created him
Except nobody knows that.
>>83685924
The point is that the entire team in the end is responsable for this.
The Avengers are responsable for creating Ultron, and due to that his family died.
Don't know what's so hard to understand for that.
>>83685924
If nobody knows that then your argument about 'only Tony is to blame!' also falls flat because that's based on Zemo knowing exactly the deal with who created Ultron.
It falls flat anyway because Zemo is specifically out to destroy the Avengers as a team, but still.
>>83685924
Might as well blame Thanos for giving Loki the gem that allowed Ultron's existance.
>>83685670
No anon, it's absurd to levy blame on Captain America. Clearly they did consider the consequences of their actions and actively put forth great effort to save as many people as possible and ultimately saved the entire world. The collateral damage that killed Zemos family is not their fault, and Zemo himself would have been dead if not for the Avengers.
>>83685868
Yet again you are forgetting zeminisnt a fucking audience member who watched age of ultron. He's a military commander who might hold a leader responsible for what those under him do.
>>83685971
>The collateral damage that killed Zemos family is not their fault
If Ultron didn't exist there would have not been any damage in the first place.
>>83685752
He was obsessed with his families honor, but not broken by it
>>83685868
He doesn't care about the specifics.
The Avengers created Ultron, and he holds them responsable for his family's death.
>>83685971
But they are as a group still ultimately responsible for ultrons creation. Yes cap too he was in command. Everything under a commander is that commanders responsibility.
>>83685892
>Scarlet Witch brainwashed Tony into creating Ultron
Scarlet Witch triggered Tony into creating Utlron.
She didn't know what he was going to do.
>>83685944
>>83685904
>>83685984
>>83685988
If not for the Avengers, Ultron would have not only killed Zemo in addition to his family, but every other human on earth. Where does that factor into his considerations, that the Avengers actually displayed great care and responsibility throughout the battle and saved as many lives as they could and actually saved all of humanity?
>>83686015
He should care, because that is an absurd assertion.
>>83686053
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the Avengers created Ultron?
>>83686070
It's not.
These guys played god, and fucked it up and caused his family's death, he doesn't care about personal shit or who to blame.
The Avengers did it, and he wants them to destroy each other.
Maybe he knows who did it, maybe not, but having the Avengers kill each other is the way he tried to destroy Iron Man, or all the Avengers.
>>83686053
I notice you just ignored that "the police released a murderer who murdered your family" argument.
>>83686019
Then why only levy guilt and shame upon them when Captain America brought about a swift and efficient end to the Age of Ultron with minimal casualties?
>>83686053
>Where does that factor into his considerations, that the Avengers actually displayed great care and responsibility throughout the battle and saved as many lives as they could and actually saved all of humanity?
Why should he care?
The Avengers did that, it's expected of them to try to fix what they have fucked up.
There's nothing good to be seen in that.
They shouldn't have made Ultron in the first place.
>>83686091
Only Tony created Ultron. The Avengers put their lives on the line to stop him regardless
>>83686152
So?
They still fucked it up.
Of course they are not going to sit on their asses while the thing they created is destroying the planet.
And of course he doesn't give a fuck they were trying to fix that when his family already died.
He's failed in his argument and is just trolling now to make it seem he was doing it on purpose all along. Thread no longer has a point
>>83686152
>our pet monster only killed SOME of you guys! and we tried real hard to stop him! you should be grateful!
>>83686152
>>83686053
This guy is just being dense for the sake of it.
I'm leaving.
>>83686176
Can we post about how great Baron Zemo is instead? He's so great.
>>83686192
Yeah he's switched to pretending he was trolling all along.
>>83680349
>But Sokovia is dead and done with storywise and is likely to never be mentioned in the MCU again unless it becomes Wundagore or something.
>Implying it won't become Latveria when Fox makes a deal
>>83686152
Why should he be thanking the Avengers for stopping their own creation from destroying the planet after he killed a fuckload of people, including his family?
>>83686120
It's the murderers fault, not the cops fault
>>83686146
Do you not understand how absurdly entitled this is? Why shouldn't he care that Captain America not only saved his life, but saved all of humanity? Why do you think you can sit in judgement of Captain America and claim he didn't do a good enough job up to your standards when he actually led the Avengers to a decisive victory over Ultron with minimal damage to the world, especially in regards to what Ultron had planned?
>>83686254
see
>>83686253
Are you just pretending to be retarded now?
>>83686254
Dude you hopped too far. Its not believable anymore.
>>83686254
>Thanks for stopping the killing machine that you created Avengers, my family died for no reason, but at least you stopped your own creation from destroying the planet!
Whedon is that you?
>>83686114
Only Tony played God. The rest of the Avengers risked their lives to correct this mistake.
>>83686192
>>83686222
No, people who think differently than you like myself aren't just pretending to make you upset.
>>83686279
How is it not obvious he's pretending now?
>>83683881
>I could've missed something, but I'm sure no one outside of the Avengers apart from Cho and Klaue knows that. I suspect everyone in the MCU-world assumes the shit that happened in Sokovia was Hydra leftovers.
SHIELD does.
>>83686314
Have a good day.
>>83686314
Dude please. You're repeating the same thing over and over again and purposefully ignoring entire elements of the argument. Its obvious
>>83686171
They actually didn't fuck it up, they put a swift end to it all and saved the entire world.
>>83686253
He doesn't need to thank them, the Avengers don't ask for that. But he most certainly can't blame them for the death of his family. They clearly put great effort forth towards saving as many people as they could
>>83686279
>>83686297
Don't get so flustered and confused when people don't think like you. Accept differing thoughts in discussions
>>83675628
>very weak interpretation of Zemo.
- muh dead family
- muh dead dad
- gives no fucks about Hydra
- absolute dedication to a plan over the course of a year using detective/spy/assassin skills
- personal vendetta specifically against Cap solely because he appears to be so perfect
- smugly aware that he beat Cap and the rest of the Avengers
- tells Cap his plan two times baiting him
- efficient and deceptively simple
- never even tries to fight the avengers
- master keikaku plan
- master plan involves having a bunch of contingencies in place in case something unexpected happes, which it does
- master plan includes wearing a mask of someone else's face
- even when captured he knows he's won and is left in a position where he'll have to escape against all odds
- leave origin story vague so they can build upon it if they so choose in future movies and never outright overwrites the traditional story
So your only complain is that he didn't wear the pink sock and didn't use a sword, wasn't it?
>>83686304
Why are you acting like saving all of humanity is some petty thing to be dismissed?
>>83686354
What do you think I'm ignoring? It's clear that Zemos victim narrative stems from entitlement. He couldn't accept the death of his family like a man and needed someone to blame, unjustly.
>>83686445
No, it was that he was motivated by a petty guilt narrative that was unfounded.
>>83686322
Is it really that baffling to you that someone would have thoughts that conflict with yours, so baffling that the only way you can rationalize this occurrence is to conclude that they must be pretending? What exactly makes you think I'm not being genuine?
>>83686323
>SHIELD does.
AoU took place after TWS. Shield ceased to exist at least a year before Ultron happened.
>>83686189
Zemo doesn't have to be grateful, but he needs to recognize that he is unjustly blaming the Avengers. It's clear from his talk with Black Panther in the mountain that Zemo was angry that, after chasing Ultron across the earth and putting their lives on the line, saving as many people in Sovokia as they possibly could and in the end saving the entire world, Captain America didn't lead the Avengers to come help him find his family in the rubble specifically. It's just pure entitlement on Zemos part.
>>83686821
>Zemo doesn't have to be grateful, but he needs to recognize that he is unjustly blaming the Avengers
It had nothing to do with Justice. Zemo want to destroy the Avengers because he wanted vengeance. Vengence is not the same as justice. This is why Zemo was fully aware that he killed Black Panther's father, and he has no intention to justify it. He knows it is unjustifiable. It was not about righting a wrong, because he clearly murdered innocent people in his path. The whole point is that vengeance just DON'T CARE what is right or wrong. Much like Tony Stark didn't care that Bucky was brainwashed. Zemo did what he did because he needed to do it, knowing full well it was unjustified.
>>83687212
He was still appealing for sympathy at the end. He didn't have this mentality of detached vengeance for vengeance sake. He genuinely believed he was bringing the Avengers to task for some wrong they caused in his life.
>>83687712
>He was still appealing for sympathy at the end.
Appealing? He was making it clear that he killed a good father. And he was waiting to be killed, there was no reason to be sympathised. But then his plain to die was foiled and he had to try and shoot himself instead. Why did you think he wantd sympathy at all? He was reminding Black Panther that "Hey, I killed your father, he was a good man. You can slit my throat right now if you like."
>>83687964
Because of his story about feeling that the Avengers failed him by leaving Sokovia instead of helping him find the bodies of his family in the rubble.
>>83688028
>Because of his story about feeling that the Avengers failed him by leaving Sokovia instead of helping him find the bodies of his family in the rubble.
The point is that he knows it is no reason to blow up the UN. You can't try to dispense justice for collateral damage by blowing up the UN. Zemo knows what it feels to want vengeance, and he assumed he could make Tony feel the same way. It worked for Tony, but when he tried to pull the same trick with Black Panther it failed.
If Zemo cared about Justice, it would have not involved terrorist attacks.
>>83688177
People carry out terrorist takes in the name of justice literally all the time.
>>83688376
>People carry out terrorist takes in the name of justice literally all the time.
And yet Zemo did not ever claim blowing up the UN was justified. The UN had nothing to do with the Avengers.
Anyway, I find it interesting that you keep trying to make Zemo some kind of heroic antihero, when he would be the first to reject that view. He said it himself, when that Hydra agent refused to talk, many more innocent people as going to die as a consequence. He never once tried to ugarcoat what he did as anything but horrible. Zemo never pretended to be a hero, he declares his status as a monster quite readily.
>>83688515
He clearly understood himself only as a dutiful husband, father and son to his family only doing what he had to do. I don't think he saw himself as a monster in any regard.
Besides that, the way you described him is exactly why I think this is a weak interpretation of the character. Baron Zemo as a character is meant to be a radical social revolutionary who understands himself as a antihero of sorts like V from V for Vendetta.
>>83680301
To keep him quiet, or at least buy some time.
