so where were time wraiths during the entire first fucking season?
i love this show but jesus christ this shit is ruining my immersion
bump for absolute biggest plot hole
When he goes back in time to get some Thawne speed boosting Thawne says that he played it smart and that the wraiths only go after speedsters who don't know what they're doing.
Because the plot demanded it, thats the simple answer
>>83260809
I think the point Thawne was trying to make was speedsters fucking with the timeline. Thawne knows where to go and what not to do, Barry on the other hand does not. Zoom's constant tampering with remnants should have gotten him caught earlier
Eobard didn't upset the timeline and therefore avoided the Wraiths.
Barry only travelled back in time twice, one he didn't cause particularly lasting damage, the other the entire timeline was already collapsing. Plus he's protected by Speed Force.
>>83261102
but suddenly in season 2 hes not protected by speed force?
>>83260946
he didnt alter the time line in the finale when he time travelled to summon the wraiths to get jay
>>83261273
He is. The Time Wraiths only targeted him when he went back in time to meet Thawne and proceeded to fuck all over the timeline. Having a big wing cover for you can you take it so far.
>>83261310
No I was pointing out what Thawne meant. Point is Zoom was careless and should have died by the Wraiths earlier
Zoom was constantly causing paradoxes left and right constantly and it's been implied he's been doing that his entire career as a speedster.
>>83259866
The Speed force plays favourites. This was pretty much one of the points of that entire episode where Barry was in there and it was trying to teach him something.
Besides, Barry didn't change much and Thawne was careful. Zoom literally travelled between worlds and fucked with shit.
I mean travelling back in time and killing Barry's parents is one thing, travelling to a different earth and kidnapping its person who can tap into the speed force, and then trying to subjugate another planet before thinking "fuck it, I'll destroy the multiverse" is another.
Also we don't know if Barry's mum dying wasn't something that happened anyway and that Thawne going back in time and offing her is how history was supposed to play out
>>83261467
the finale of season 2 implies that all gou need to do is go 2 minutes in the past n wraithes will surely folloe>>83261467
>>83261618
The implication is that what really gets you in hot water is creating time remnants, which resets entire timelines, and that's Zoom's go-to move.
>>83261467
Zoom also said that he's been dogged by time wraiths in the past, but has thus far managed to avoid them.
>>83261415
Thawne never changed anything big except he moved forward the date of the particle accelerator explosion and killing Wells. Even on one of his monologues he talks about choosing to kill people based on their impact on the timeline. Zoom on the other hand was kidnapping people from other worlds, creating time remnants of himself, killing his his own time remnants, and attempted to destroy the multiverse
>>83261656
This. Barry created a time remnant to stop Zoom from wiping out the multiverse
Zoom literally made and killed one for kicks just to fuck with Barry
>>83261722
Wh-? Dude. Re-read what I posted. I never said Thawne did anything to attract the attention of the time wraiths. ZOOM did. All Thawne did was tell Barry he was being a dumbass because Barry didnt know the basics of time travel
>>83261802
I responded to the wrong post, my bad
>>83261722
literally the entire first season was never supposed to happen. he was careful ?? didnt change anything ?? grodd?? fucking christ tbe entire first season of the show is a giant middle finger to the time line
>>83261831
The future didn't change. Remember the "Flash vanishes in crisis" newspaper Wells would constantly check
thats one aspect of the future. the undoubtedly did change many other aspects
how is killing your own time remnant worse than killing barrys mom, living as someone else for 14 years or whatever and forcing the particle excelerator explosion?
>>83262323
Time remnants are living paradoxes, and the timeline is reset every time they're created.
Wells did reset the timeline by murdering Barry's mother, but he proceeded to steer it towards its original state. Yes, he killed Wells, but he then made sure all of Wells' contributions to science still happened. He ensured the Flash's existence and the launch of the partice accelerator.
>>83262142
They're important aspects of the future. Things like the Flash being created and him vanishing during Crisis are pivotal moments in time. The creation of Grodd might not have the same impact on the timeline
What happened to the "stop my invincible self" Flash?
>>83262323
Imagine that time is a river. The river ends in the sea. If you walk upstream, and throw a few small pebbles into the river, you'll make some very small ripples, but nothing will REALLY change. The river will still empty out into the sea.
Now imagine that instead of throwing a few pebbles in, you decide to build a dam, and divert the river past your house, and into a well. The river no longer flows into the sea.
The wraiths only get pissed when you do the latter. You can go back in time and throw some pebbles around, even fuck your own grandmother if you want to, as long as you don't fuck up TOO MUCH. As long as time continues and the future is more or less the same, theres no issues. But if you throw some big fucking boulders around, and change how the future turns out in a big way, then you're gonna get a visit from the time wraiths.
>>83262767
i understand but i still disagree that jays silly remnant shenanigans were a boulder and wells was a pebble
>>83262884
It wasn't just the remnants though, the speedforce permiates all universes and he kidnapped and stole the speed from one of these universes beings who could tap into the speed force
Beyond that, Wells repeatedly made a point of making sure that his changes did not affect the grand scheme of things. Barry still became the Flash, still vanished in the crisis. One could even argue he made sure Grodd came into being given that for some fucking reason he kept a gorilla next to his particle accelerator.
The point is Wells kept that stream on a flowing more or less the way it should do.
Zoom fucked around with time and other universes with little to no regard for what might happen. Remember in the first season when Jays hat came through and Wells was like "well shit, that's not good"? That was because he was very careful in what he did and even he knew not to fuck with other universes.
Wells and Zoom were both gone in the head, but whereas where Wells was cold and calculating, Zoom did what he did for shits and giggles on a whim
>>83262884
Well, it's all relative.
If Wells' only contribution to the future, or at least, the only contribution that REALLY made a difference was that one day he'd cause Barry to become the Flash, then him being dead isn't that big of a deal. Yes, the events happened a few years in advance, but as long as it's a tune you can still whistle to, it's fine.
Hell, like someone pointed out, Zoom said he's had run ins with the wraiths before but managed to avoid them, somehow. Maybe this time was just the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. The wraiths finally just got sick of his shit.
Or there's shit in the future, which we never see, that Jay's shenanigans caused to happen that's REALLY bad. Scorched earth bad. Or another explanation is that, since the Speed Force is a sentient...enity? It decided to finally step in because Zoom was threatening the speed force itself.
This is why shit involving time travel in any way is always fucking stupid.
>>83261604
>travelling to a different earth and kidnapping its person who can tap into the speed force
Zoom's line about how it "didn't take" implied to me CW Jay's powers aren't from the Speedforce. Am I misinterpreting that line?
>>83263205
Time travel stories can be pretty cool, but that's only if the rules for what are and aren't possible are established. Once you know the basic guidelines, you can suspend your disbelief and enjoy the story. The Flash likes to make everything possible and nothing impossible, so it's just frustrating.
>>83263208
I don't remember to be honest. I thought he said he'd taken another speedsters speed before when he got barry to hand over his, but I could be remembering it wrong
I mean they only had a limited time to wrap things up, they didn't show them traveling to earth 2 to get Jay, or even take his helmet off there, instead bringing him back to earth one for some reason, so perhaps they didn't bother explaining how Jay got his speed back
But then as I say, I could be wrong
>>83263208
barry's connection to the speed force is direct. jay may be based on max mercury where his speed is based on metahuman powers and not speed force.
>>83263393
>The Flash likes to make everything possible and nothing impossible
>>83262697
he already left.
that was the flash that got kid barry out of the house.
>>83263661
Or it's S3 Barry when he goes back to prevent Flashpoint from happening.
>>83263740
This is getting really fucking stupid. How many Barry's were in that damn house?
>>83264575
Kid Barry
Barry That took kid barry out
Barry S1 who was at the door
S2 Finale who saved the day and destroy the future
Kid Barry
Barry That took kid barry out
Barry S1 who was at the door
S3 who stopped S1
>>83261415
>Point is Zoom was careless and should have died by the Wraiths earlier
Didn't he state earlier in the episode that time wraiths had come after him before?
>>83264752
4 Barrys. 4 goddamn Barrys.
>>83259866
>>83260021
>>83261273
>>83261467
>>83262697
>>83263205
>>83263393
>>83263569
>>83263656
>>83264796
>>83264575
There will be one Barry for each season.
>>83264832
Can we just do Crisis of Infinite Barrys already?
>>83264832
>series finale will have them all fuse together to defeat the Big Bad (Anti-Monitor most likely)
>>83263569
Max was pure speedforce, Jay was actually the one that had speed independent of the speedforce. You got it backwards.
>>83264982
I don't trust anyone involved in this show with Anti-Monitor.
>>83265079
Not even Cereal God?
>>83265079
Anti-Monitor will be defeated byFelicity
>>83265487
Ayyy there it is, that original post
See geddit, cause we all hate Felicity. What utter banter.
I fucking despise Felicity, but posts like this are the equivalent of 14 year olds posting on music videos on youtube that "all the downvoters love Justin Beiber"
Its dignity anon, get some.
>>83265678
t. Guggenheim
Can someone tell me what exactly is a time wraith? Where they from? Who sent or made them?
>>83265976
They are from Timewraithsillvania and were made by Dr. Timewraithington. Any other stupid questions, you stupid idiot?
>>83265976
Speed Force enforcers that can outrun any speedster. That's all we know.
>>83266073
Ouch. I'm sorry you didn't know your father. I just wanted a simple explanation to flash lore.
Are the wraiths connected to the time masters somehow?
>>83266310
Now there's time masters?! Someone please explain time masters.
>>83265976
I think they're basically just physical representations of the timeline making sure time goes how it's supposed to.
They don't show up if you go to the past and don't affect a whole lot and/or know how to avoid attracting their attention. But if you really fuck with time, they'll be on your ass to murder you so you stop fucking with the timeline.
>>83266310
Possibly?
Would make sense for the Time Masters to have a way to deal with speedsters, since they have to know by that point time travelling speedsters is a thing, and I doubt they'd want to personally confront someone who can run faster than they can think and time travel in their boxers just by running.
>>83266358
Time wraiths appear in Flash to go after speedsters who fuck around with time too much. They're some sort of weird monster things.
The Time Masters are people in Legends of Tomorrow that do basically the same thing, except with "normal" time travelers, not speedsters.
>>83266358
that's what Legends of Tomorrow was about
Ah. I understand now. Thanks all. Any good stories of Gladh and time wraiths?
>>83266611
They're actually an original concept for the show, I think.
>>83266721
They seem pretty similar to the Black Flash.
Thought they're less "Death: Gotta Go Fast edition" and more "Langoliers: Gotta Go fast edition"
to piggyback on this other anon, what is a time remnant?
I thought i had a solid theory. that future Zoom traveled to the past and told himself of his plan. and past Zoom ended up kililng himself, becoming the Zoom we all know. but the season finale REALLY fucked me up.
wouldnt ( current/future) barry have had to live with his past self in order to create a time remnant? Meaning (current/future) barry died in the episode?
How would you guys feels if the first episode of S1 is Barry waking up happy he has his mother again only to find she died to some other reason and all the other events still happening?
>>83267313
S3, my bad
>>83259866
Wasn't Hartley Rathaway meant to be a member of the Star Labs team after Barry fucked up with Wellsobard?
>>83267177
They way i understood is that a time remnant is a part of a destroyed timeline and they just sorta "exist" in a manner of speaking, until at speedster pulls them out and places them in the "live" timeline.
>>83263408
>they didn't bother explaining how Jay got his speed back
they said there was dampener in the helmet/face mask
>>83263037
>Remember in the first season when Jays hat came through and Wells was like "well shit, that's not good"?
I thought this implied that other speedsters were after him?
>>83263208
Zoom was too retarded to steal speed from people, he only said he wanted to but never actually did it.
His dumb ass needed Team Flash to help him steal Barry's speed. Zoom was fucking dumb.
>>83259866
It's the least watched show in the 9 pm slot, they don't have to give a shit about plot holes because nobody is watching.
>>83259866
The few times that Barry went back in Season 1, the timeline fixed itself. Because Time Wants to Happen. He didn't alter it to such an extreme to get the wraith's attention: HOWEVER, one could assume that's part of why Wells was super not wanting to know exactly what Barry had changed while time travelling.
Because if he gets involved on some level in fixing shit, the Wraiths might notice him as being a bigger offender than Barry (Like how Zoom was a bigger offender than Barry in the S2 Finale).
In Season 2, Zoom is ripping shit up, making time remnants left and right; trying to steal and defile the speed force. He couldn't get it from Jay, so he threw Jay essentially in stasis so he couldn't be an active part of the Speedforce. Zoom lied about stealing the speed from "Jay" because Zoom was Jay. When he finally stole the speed from Barry, then he pissed off the Speedforce by cheating.
Which put the wraiths right on his ass. Because it is not something Time Wants to Happen.
It isn't a huge plot hole.
Why didn't Zoom use a time remnant to power up the doomsday machine?
