Are there any Punisher arcs where he goes after white collar criminals, since they're far more responsible for pain and suffering across the entire country than some gangbangers or mafia-types whose effects are rather limited?
Barracuda arc in MAX.
>The reason you're missing 4 fingers is because you've been embezzling money, Mr. Michaels. But the reason you're about to die is because you used that money to buy a yacht.
Frank does not kill criminals to make the world a better place or protect innocent people, he kills them because he hates them
>>83245788
There would be less criminals for him to kill if Wall Street types didn't close down factories and poison drinking water.
>>83245829
>There would be less criminals for him to kill
That's a good reason to not do it
You should have already read Punisher MAX.
>>83245490
The Barracuda arc of MAX, the insider trading arc of Mike Baron's run, and The Punisher: The End.
Probably more.
>>83245490
One of the other vigilantes from Welcome Back, Frank went after Wall Street criminals, though he was also careless, and ended up killing at least four innocent people, something he apathetically brushed off (which is probably the reason why Frank killed him).
Are there any arcs where he fucking dies because he tries to do things gung ho style?
>>83246129
No, because the Punisher doesn't do gung ho.
>>83246129
Punisher :The List
>>83246129
Read War Zone. Pretty capably showed why Frank can't be killed. He's basically a ghost.
>>83246264
>why Frank can't be killed
His Plot Armor?
>>83246409
That's the short answer, but his plot armor is demonstrated in a way that's believable.
>>83246129
http://4thletter.net/2012/02/the-many-deaths-of-frank-castle/
There's probably something here, though it's from 2012, and thus obviously missing things like the Secret Wars tie-in.
>>83246409
Why does everyone complain about this component? It's not even ridiculous in Frank's case given his action hero roots. I can't imagine watching Hardboiled or Die Hard with you faggots.
>>83246448
Not really. Frank would get killed real quick in reality. He's a fucking cape character. There's nothing realistic about him.
>>83245857
By this logic he should become a villain and kill anyone fighting crime so the world can become a terrible crime ridden place that he can happily purge.
>>83246538
By that logic, then Ripley and Rambo are cape characters.
>>83245490
He's tried to kill Wilson Fisk multiple times
>>83246590
Rambo might as well be.
>>83246602
>mobster
>white collar criminal
>>83246631
He's both, it's why he's so powerful
>>83246602
...Kingpin isn't a white collar criminal.
>>83245490
He should really go after Roxxon Oil
>>83245664
>>83245490
You know some "capeshit" writers deal with that? There was even an arc in Punisher with a vigilante called Payback who dealt with them.
>>83245490
Frank Castle doesn't kill to make the world a better place, he kills because he's a psychopath.
The problem with Frank is that he's essentially an action hero, his stories rarely touch upon the complex nature of crime; the socioeconomic aspects that foster it.
>>83245490
He did once follow a crime all the way to the white house, but was stopped by Captain America and his own unwillingness to hurt Cap.
The scum got away with it, like in real life.
>>83246529
>>83246590
The difference is that those are far better characters made by competent people that don't try be edgy serious trash while failing horribly like capeshit writers
>>83245490
That's debatable. White collar criminals don't go around shooting and killing innocents.
>>83246753
There are many Punisher stories that don't try to be deep or edgy and just have crazy action. "Welcome Back Frank" is the most famous.
>>83246755
They exacerbate the factors that push people to do so.
>>83246755
The crime that Wall Street types commit a) goes completely unpunished and b) create the environment that street crime grows out of.
>>83245490
First issue of dark reign, he tries to go after norman osborn
>>83246875
>a) goes completely unpunished
True
>and b) create the environment that street crime grows out of.
I'm not so sure about that one
>>83246862
>"push" people to do so
Ugh
>>83246814
How about instead of recycling the same shitty character, they try writing good, new characters in original stories that aren't fan-fiction garbage?
>>83246969
Crime exists to fill vacuums. People can't find work, but they need money to live. So, they turn to crime in order to get the money that they need. People don't dream of becoming a street boy slinging crack. They do that sort of shit because there's nothing else that's available for them. There's nothing else that's available for them because Wall Street plays games with the economy, either choking back work to increase profits, destroying jobs through their fraudulent actions (such as the case during the last recession) or by creating unstable economic conditions to, once again, increase profits.
>>83247064
Right? Like, Frank one day realizes that he can't keep fighting the war, that he's getting older and he's running down, that crime is a cycle and heroes try to stop that cycle. Maybe he should try being a hero for once.
>>83247064
Oh, so you just hate "capeshit." Gotcha! I've met plenty of anons like you (or maybe it was just you) and trying to have a discussion about said topic is pointless.
does Frank even have the skillset to track down white collar criminals?
>>83247168
Sure he does. Can he spend a couple bucks on a newspaper? Not like white collar criminals hide.
>>83247168
Tracking down white collar criminals is a lot easier than tracking down drug dealers, human traffickers and mobsters
>>83247155
Recycling the same, decades old characters, who all exist in the same universe for marketing purposes will never result in good writing.
The best capeshit writing is still worse than daytime TV soap opera trash.
>>83247064
>try writing good, new characters in original stories that aren't fan-fiction garbage?
What are archetypes? The Punisher encompasses basically an vigilante story, an crazy ex-soldier story somebody would want to do.
The market for comics is in a pretty bad place and in point of fact Garth Ennis' other war comics and crime stories with original characters sell less than 1/10 as much.
Garth Ennis takes Marvel jobs to pay for those. He can have fun with both, and I as a reader can pursue both.
Your faux elitism is just pretentious chest-thumping.
>>83247301
What about the same characters but in a different universe? I'm talking Ultimate comics, movies, tv shows, etc.
>>83247085
Go back to your Bernie rally
>>83247301
>Recycling the same, decades old characters, who all exist in the same universe for marketing purposes will never result in good writing.
It has resulted in good writing hundreds of times. There are many stories with creative integrity and substance in comic books of all types.
>The best capeshit writing is still worse than daytime TV soap opera trash.
Not even a little bit true. When you exaggerate that way you might think you're adding emphasis to your point, but really you're undermining your legitimacy.
Punisher doesn't give a fuck about stuff like that. He's just a psycho who wants an excuse to kill gangsters. Your complaint would be better applied to Batman, who is supposedly intelligent and lucid.
>>83247460
>intelligent
Yes
>lucid
Putting on a fetish suit and spending billions of dollars to punch themed villains in the face is not something lucid people do.
This is more of a Green Arrow thing.
>>83247366
>The market for comics is in a pretty bad place
Because capeshit killed the market with the CCA and Diamond.
>>83247064
Who's "they"?
Ennis, Rucka, and Edmondson all write plenty of non capeshit. However, sometimes people have to eat, so they sign with Marvel or DC and pay the mortgage. I'm sorry that this doesn't fit your ideal view of "art", but that's reality.
>>83247522
>Because capeshit killed the market with the CCA and Diamond.
Yes, and? Should I wave my magic wand and undo that damage?
Go read Saga or something, jesus.
This thread is going places.
>>83247301
I'm the anon you replied to. I've been in discussions like this countless times. I'm not in the mood. Especially today! My birthday is going to shit enough as it is. I'll just agree to disagree. Or I'll just agree if that's what you want. "Capeshit" sucks, but I love it anyway. I have such shit taste. There you have it. Have a Good day.
>>83247522
OK? This isn't news to anyone. We all know that.
Going after writers won't solve anything. Preordering floppies, buying trades, and just generally showing support for smaller titles is the only way out of the hole Diamond and the other culprits created.
Bitching about a Charles Bronson expy on a French film forum isn't a way to solve anything.
>>83247551
That isn't an argument in support of capeshit. Comics are doing well in Europe and Asia. Far better than north America.
Shit, even with an artificial monopoly capeshit still can't sell because it's trash. Disney and WB keep Marvel and DC around just for IP rights to crank out more shitty popcorn flicks no one cares about.
>>83247597
Nigga you mean Mack Bolan expy.
>>83246753
>using words like "capeshit" and "edgy"
Just kill yourself.
>>83245788
Why doesn't he hate white collar criminals?
>>83247662
>no one cares about
>MCU
>>83247707
Because they don't shoot back.
>>83247597
>Going after writers won't solve anything
Pretending that the garbage they write isn't shitty won't help either .
> Preordering floppies, buying trades, and just generally showing support for smaller titles is the only way out of the hole Diamond and the other culprits created.
I already do that.
>ITT: People arguing over things hat they know nothing about
>>83247707
They didn't kill his family.
>>83247757
Who's pretending? I love it. My kinda trash.
>>83247662
>That isn't an argument in support of capeshit. Comics are doing well in Europe and Asia. Far better than north America.
Yes? And? Let me just put on my super suit and push the continents back into Pangaea so we can all enjoy euro/asian comics.
>Shit, even with an artificial monopoly capeshit still can't sell because it's trash. Disney and WB keep Marvel and DC around just for IP rights to crank out more shitty popcorn flicks no one cares about.
One, again, and what else is that supposed to mean to me? Should I assassinate the executives who control time warner and disney? Should I wage war to begin down the federal government so that the characters slip into the public domain and are no longer profitable?
Or should I pursue a political career ro change public domain laws directly?
What would you have me do, fucknugget?
>responding to a "capeshit" baitposter
>>83247757
>Pretending that the garbage they write isn't shitty won't help either .
There's plenty of good stuff, and FYI, only a few writers working in comics can do better stuff outside of superhero stories.
Ed Brubaker's Velvet or Fatale are as good as any Captain America he wrote.
Jason Aaron's indie stuff is a lot better than his superhero stuff, but that's because he's overextended. The Marvel stuff pays his bills.
What do you want, bro? Because it's seems like you want an applebox to stand on and rant.
>>83247753
It's a mindless popcorn flick you take your kids to be amused by the pretty CGI. No one really cares about them.
>>83247914
They help distract me from the crushing awareness of the inevitability of my own death.
>>83247906
>There's plenty of good stuff
Such as?
>>83246753
>Rambo movies.
>Not written by edgelord retards..
Wew.
>>83247914
There weren't any kids besides teenagers and older at my theatre, and it was packed. I saw some elderly people by themselves at the theatre (probably because they were around and grew up with Cap in the forties).
>>83247861
That's what happens when you have mods as "competent" as ours. Even the most obvious bait finds a few retards who respond to it if you leave it long enough.
>>83247978
>Such as?
This is the part where I go out of my way to assemble a list of critically acclaimed comic books, from a variety of authors in a variety of genres and then you reply in a way to dismiss their legitimacy and quality without responding to my subsequent posts because you don't have an argument to stand on and are being purposefully contrarian.or you reply with "lolreddit contrarian meme" bullshit
>>83247978
Why are you guys still responding to this shitposter? I've seen many like this anon and have probably run into this one too. He doesn't care what you think! He's just trying to lord his integrity for "art" and can't stand to believe that some people can like what he likes and superhero comics. If you recommend things to him, he's going to say they are all shit. Wether he read them or not. Wether he's heard of them or not.
>>83248110
I was asking for examples of good capeshit.
Woo! Thread completely derailed by shitposters.
>>83248187
It's just one.
>>83248187
>derailed
"why doesn't Punisher do X/what happens if Punisher does X" started popping out ever since DD2, so I think it's a work of one or a group of dedicated shitposters.
>>83246161
Wasn't that because Stormin' Norman sent Daken after Frank, neutralizing Frank's best assets?
>>83248251
>DD2
And by that I obviously mean Daredevil season 2.
>>83248146
Shitty media is shitty media. Instead of trying to defend the comic book equivalent tv wrestling as well written. Just admit it's trash that you enjoy.
>>83248154
fine.....Promethea by Alan Moore
Swamp Thing by Alan Moore
Watchmen by Alan Moore
Hawkeye by Matt Fraction
Captain Maerica vol.5 by Ed Brubaker
Immortal Iron Fist by Fraction and Bru
Legends of the Dark Knight (vol.1) by various authors (Denny Oneil, Morrison, Alan Grant, etc)
Batwoman by Greg Rucka
Manhunter by Marc Andreyko
Hellboy by Mike Mignola
Atomoic Robo by Brian Clevinger
Daredevil by various, Miller, Oneil, Bendis, etc
Thor by JMS
New X-Men by Morrison
Astonishing X-Men by Whedon
Ex Machina by Brian K Vaughn
Astro City
Some of these are great examples of the characters, others are works of substance in their own right.
>>83248324
>Alan Moore
Alan Moore is a fucking horrible writer.
>>83248305
I already did:
>>83247827
What about Punisher: Last man on earth?
>>83248324
You just gave him more ammunition. He's not gonna take anything on that list seriously.
>>83248367
>Alan Moore is a fucking horrible writer.
see
>>83248110
I knew exactly what you were gonna do.
>/co/ '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''moderation'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
>>83248416
I know....and yet I have hope, if I reply earnestly and in good faith that perhaps it can change someone's mind.
>>83248305
Well, when you write stuff like this:
>>83247914
Then why can't you understand that people care about the MCU and are passionate about it just like they are with wrestling. It's all good fun.
>>83248488
I respect that. I used to be hopeful when I dealt with these kinds of shitposters too.
>>83247756
This. Them shooting back is a important aspect of being Punisher.
>>83245997
Welcome back was great. The only one he didn't really care about was the Priest, but the Priest didn't clean up the other two.
>people who regurgitate shit they hear from a socialist jew who knows nothing about economics pollute /co/ and people seriously respond to the thread
>>83248540
Yeah Frank seemed to support Payback until he spouted off about "Collateral". then Frank mowed him down.
Thats the difference between Frank and other vigilante types he hates criminals but he likes people and will protect them just as quick as he guts a scumbag.
>>83248540
Everyone always overlooks the fact that Punisher meticulously plans every raid to ensure that there aren't any innocents caught in the crossfire
Punisher has probably killed less innocent people than many of the big name capes
>>83245490
I'm sure he has.
>>83247168
>>83247707
You have to consider the KIND of white collar criminals he would go after in the first place.
He's not going to go after the federal reserve, tax evaders and people who make Ron Paul mad, or the people the occupy wall street or G7 protesters were mad about.
>>83248540
There's a FEW times where goes all maximum Frank on people who don't shoot back. Like that segment with the Yugoslavian human smugglers, or the dude who does credit card processing for the mob, and that dude who does real estate for supervillians.
Those would all count as white collar.
He also goes after pedo fuckers who don't shoot back, and they're sometimes white collar.
Hmmm.. Now I want a Punisher vs that creepy pedowood dude, Dan Snider?
Has Punisher ever killed a mob boss with an international criminal empire, tons of legal businesses and politicians in his backpocket?
Do those count as ordinary mobsters or white collar criminals? I always forget.
>>83247085
>People don't dream of becoming a street boy slinging crack.
Of course not, they dream of becoming the top gangster, and "street boy" is a stepping stone to that. Don't pretend there isn't an element of romanticize of crime, and the allure of criminal behavior that plays an element in people's decision to be criminals. And it is a decision.
Crime DOES exist to fill vacuums, but some of those are in the human psyche itself.
>>83249489
The Kingpin in Aaron's MAX continuation.
Of course, he died immediately after.
There's probably other examples. This character has been around for over 40 years.
>>83249574
And if there were jobs that were available, jobs that people could get, then they wouldn't need to dream about becoming a top gangster. Even top gangsters aren't free from a life of danger, and you've got to do a lot of dirt to become a top gangster. Becoming middle manage, on the other hand, with a 50k salary, involves no danger whatsoever, but those jobs aren't available to many people anymore.
>>83249652
Not everyone could be a middle manager even in People's Republic of Bernie Sanders.
Frank usually works his way up from the bottom. The majority of Ennis' MAX run is Frank taking on high-level organized crime, corrupt companies, and war profiteers. But to get to them, he needs to take out street-level mooks because that's how he gets the lead.
>>83250353
Who said anything about Bernie Sanders? I just think criminals should be punished, whether their victim is a corner boy that got shot up over a territory dispute, or the victim is an entire nation whose economy crashes because Wall Street decided to do credit default swaps and bundling and selling off debt packages while selling subprime mortgages off to people whose income cannot possibly pay off said mortgages.
I think you guys are expecting too much from an action hero. Someone should make an OC that targets white collar crime with the same precision as Frank.
>>83246409
Basically anybody who isn't weak and stupid and incapable and who doesn't die in the opening seconds of any fight must just have "plot armor."
Hey, what about Audie Murphy, did he have plot armor too?
Maybe some people just aren't weak and stupid and incapable. I know YOU don't know anybody like that, but trust me, they're out there.
>>83250534
The post I quoted was saying that if only people got better jobs, they would never become career criminals.
Judging people's responsibility for financial ruin of a country and applying proper punishment is out of Castle's field of expertise unless he stumbles upon clear evidence that someone's shady dealings could cost hundreds of lives, see the Barracuda arc, or they are stock caricatures of evil corporation and government people, like in The End.
>>83246719
Socioeconomic factors do not cause crime, they're just the easiest and most readily available excuse.
What causes crime is greed and entitlement and jealousy and pride.
That's why some people will never turn to crimewhile other people always will no matter what their socioeconomic situation.
Lots of rich people commit crimes too, this whole thread is about white collar crime, what's the socioeconomic cause of that?
That's why stealing is stealing whether you steal a million dollars or twenty-five cents. It's the same decision at the individual level: "I deserve it because I can take it. Might makes right."
All crimes come from "might makes right" thinking. Not "socio-economic factors."
Seriously, go back to school and ask for your money back. They educated you wrong on purpose, it looks like.
>>83250828
>What causes crime is greed and entitlement and jealousy and pride.
Or not having anything to do, and the local gang is recruiting.
Can be, but its whatever.
>>83250828
You're a fucking retard.
>>83247121
>Right? Like, Frank one day realizes that he can't keep fighting the war, that he's getting older and he's running down, that crime is a cycle and heroes try to stop that cycle. Maybe he should try being a hero for once.
^
This is a person who commits small crimes and justifies it because others commit larger crimes and they get away with it.
All you fucking socialists are obvious as fuck.
>>83245997
I unironically loved that guy. They should bring him back.
>>83250869
>Or not having anything to do, and the local gang is recruiting.
Many of these people do have better things to do, they'd just rather do the easy thing that they think is cool
>>83250773
>The post I quoted was saying that if only people got better jobs, they would never become career criminals.
And they wouldn't. That's why crime exists, because actual opportunity isn't available. You create a culture and a climate where opportunity isn't available and crime flourishes so that people are able to make ends meet. Once that culture and climate exists, an economy is created where you're able to move up inside of said culture. But in the end, no matter who you are, you're always faced with violence.
Create opportunity, and that crime will vanish.
>>83250828
>>83250773
I know it makes it easier to sleep at night to think they way that you do, but life is a hell of a lot more complex than you seem to think it is.
>>83250950
>Many of these people do have better things to do
Most of them are too stupid to realize that. All I know is from British studies, is that gang recruitment completely collapses if local communities get something like a play house for teens.
>>83250917
>This is a person who commits small crimes and justifies it because others commit larger crimes and they get away with it.
Fucking what? How does 'crime should be punished, no matter what the crime is, or who commits it' infer that I commit crime?
>>83250869
>>What causes crime is greed and entitlement and jealousy and pride.
>Or not having anything to do, and the local gang is recruiting.
>Can be, but its whatever.
You spit in the face of every person who was put in that situation and DIDN'T turn to crime.
People have freewill, people can choose the right thing even when it's hard, in fact, you're supposed to.
>>83251111
>Most of them are too stupid to realize that
And there we have the main cause of street crime: stupidity. Smart criminals go towards white collar crime since they know it's easier to get away with and more profitable.
>>83250828
>Lots of rich people commit crimes too, this whole thread is about white collar crime, what's the socioeconomic cause of that?
The development of leadership caste physically and socially removed from working class persons.
>>83251144
>People have freewill, people can choose the right thing even when it's hard, in fact, you're supposed to.
Let's not pretend people can't be sabotaged either.
If someone is raised in conditions where acting feral rewards them, they will act feral.
People can be conditioned for failure by apathy, neglect, and abuse, which are also hallmarks of poverty.
>>83251081
It's exactly as complex as you make it, and making a simple situation more complicated isn't a sign of intelligence.
I don't sleep well at all. My way of thinking is much more stressful and taxing, because I see the destruction of Western Civilization as a completely voluntary thing.
This isn't murder, it's suicide, in other words.
No, that doesn't help me sleep at night and it it isn't overly simplistic.
You trying to oversimplify what I said so you can make it fit into a familiar argument in your mind is simplistic. You're simplistic. But my way of thinking isn't.
>>83250828
>Lots of rich people commit crimes too, this whole thread is about white collar crime, what's the socioeconomic cause of that?
There are wolves around us, and there always have been. Depending on which culture those wolves are raised in, they either go into politics, Wall Street, the military or the streets. Wolves are wolves.
>>83251129
I know you're a liar so I'm not going to debate you.
Just let this be a warning to you that you broadcast more than you intend when you say stupid things in front of smart people.
>>83251291
>>83251253
Right. The people that want society to flourish, and for the root causes of crime to be yanked out at their source, rather than just constantly and continually chasing our tails while burning taxpayer money are the bad, simplistic people who can't just face up to the fact that people decide to become murderers and thieves, slinging drugs and feeding on societal decay because LOL. And I'm the simple one.
>>83251231
>apathy, neglect, and abuse, which are also hallmarks of poverty.
Dignity is a hallmark of poverty. Self-respect is a hallmark of poverty. Humility is a hallmark of poverty. Valuing education is a hallmark of poverty. Working hard and obeying the law and trusting in God are hallmarks of poverty.
Thinking that all poor people are criminals is a hallmark of growing up sheltered, middle class, and being lied to every day all day long by Cultural Marxist teachers and liberal parents.
>>83251253
>because I see the destruction of Western Civilization as a completely voluntary thing.
>>83251357
Well, if the test was to accurately report on the opposing argument, yes, you'd fail the test.
You're supposed to study logical fallacies to avoid them, not to apply them.
>>83251451
>Thinking that all poor people are criminals is a hallmark of growing up sheltered, middle class, and being lied to every day all day long by Cultural Marxist teachers and liberal parents.
The rich steal more than the poor, comrade.
>>83245490
Fuck off, Mr. Payback.
>>83251524
Not to mention that they eat up far more taxpayer money than any other portion of society, save for the defense sector.
>>83251475
I wonder what lulzy reaction meme you're gonna post when some Jihadi chops your fuckin' head off with an antique sword.
I mean I bet it will just be chuckletastic.
I mean it will most likely be mega cute and oh so witty, since you're the type to believe making a joke is the same thing as making an argument.
>>83251596
>I wonder what lulzy reaction meme you're gonna post when some Jihadi chops your fuckin' head off with an antique sword.
Probably this one.
She can chop off the head of my sword any day.
>>83251524
>The rich steal more than the poor, comrade.
Yeah, because they're hungry and they have no jobs and nothing else to do, right?
People are thoughtless, soulless stimulus-response machines and turning someone bad or good is just a matter of applying the right stimulus, right?
Just because you people chose not to break free from your conditioning doesn't mean it's impossible.
>>83251044
The existence of economic opportunity is not a true/false thing. There are always better opportunities.
Criminal activity will always be more profitable than legal job because you don't have to pay taxes.
Equality of outcome is impossible because there are always going to be burger flippers and pro athletes, cleaners and pop celebrities, coffee boys and CEOs.
You can of course minimize the inequality by raising taxes and redistribution of resources. Then guess what, illegal activity will still pay better than a 9 to 5 job and it will be even more pronounced.
And if you assume that people will always take their own well-being over financial gain, then I guess there is no need for public healthcare because even welfare recipients should know better.
>>83251652
>She can chop off the head of my sword any day.
I saw a guy vomit once after being decapitated. (From his neckhole, not his mouthhole, obviously.)
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some people ejaculate.
>>83251671
>Yeah, because they're hungry and they have no jobs and nothing else to do, right?
No, because they're greedy as fuck and are far enough removed from the consequences of their actions that it doesn't trigger their "am I acting like a psycho" response properly. Think about how Hitler got grossed out when he saw the reality of a firing line and demanded that they start gassing jews instead.
>>83245490
Why, pray tell, do Mafia not qualify as white-collar criminals? They often launder money, pay off union bosses, create phony business fronts, and bribe politicians. They're just white-collar criminals who are willing to get their hands dirty.
>>83251671
>turning someone bad or good is just a matter of applying the right stimulus, right?
>Just because you people chose not to break free from your conditioning doesn't mean it's impossible.
People raised in poverty are conditioned by those circumstances to be more likely to commit violent crime, abuse drugs, and generally be a blight to society, but how much of that do they really choose? Do they choose to not have access to food, jobs, drug free neighborhoods?
People can be saints, but there's a reason we lionize saints, most people don't have that moral fortitude. They're not iredeemable for having frailty, for lapses of judgement. They're just average.
Here is the ugliest truth I can reveal to you:Most people are only as good as they have the means to be.
>>83251764
You're thinking of Himmler, not Hitler.
And secondly, you've done a complete 180 and come over to my side.
Which I wouldn't ordinarily discourage, but it doesn't seem like you changed your mind, it seems more like you're just wandering aimlessly and you wound up here quite by accident and all unknowingly.
I am the one who said crime is caused by people giving in to their greed, believing in their own entitlement, and accepting a "might makes right" sense of justice. That's MY argument.
You can't use MY argument to disprove my argument and prove your argument when your argument is something completely different.
Notice how my argument is consistent and yours is totally not? Ehhhh . . . Hitler, Himmler, what's the difference, close enough, right?
And if not, well, whatever.
The world wouldn't seem so complicated if you weren't all such lazy thinkers.
>>83251929
>They're just average.
Average is unacceptable.
>>83251929
I don't think you and I are in any disagreement.
But we SHOULD lionize saints and we should EXPECT everybody to be one, and when they're not, we should blame that on them, on their choices, their decisions, their values, and not on their excuses and rationalizations and justifications.
If you can come out and admit you lack moral fortitude, admit that you're weak, and stupid, maybe you could actually work on that and develop yourself.
But if you can just blame poverty for turning you into a purse snatcher, then maybe we should throw you in prison every time you're poor and not wait for you to follow your poverty to it's inevitable conclusion.
How about that? If poverty causes crime, then let's just lock up all the poor people.
The rich will have no one to exploit, it'll all work out, right?
>>83251971
Most people are average. That's what the word implies.
>>83252079
And that's why the world is kinda crap. Our "average" is well below what it should be.
>>83252065
>and we should EXPECT everybody to be one, and when they're not, we should blame that on them, on their choices, their decisions, their values, and not on their excuses and rationalizations and justifications.
That's the kind of moral polarization and binary thinking which makes people blame the poor for being poor.
>How about that? If poverty causes crime, then let's just lock up all the poor people.
>The rich will have no one to exploit, it'll all work out, right?
How about we takes steps to lift people out of poverty, with social services like universal healthcare, good public education, and job placement programs?
>>83245490
white collar criminals didn't kill his family
>>83252104
>And that's why the world is kinda crap. Our "average" is well below what it should be.
Most people in the world live in poverty, or are subsistence farmers without access to any other lifestyle.
Poor op just wanted some recommendations and to maybe talk about the punisher a little bit, but instead got a moral circle jerk. Weak.
>>83252364
I live in poverty. You don't have to lecture me about how poor people live.
>>83246647
What are you talking about, you mook? He wears a white jacket, he has a white collar
>>83252654
You can control the means of production, comrade.
Force the intelligentsia to value your labor, comrade.
LONG LIVE THE PROLIFERATE.
>>83246590
To be fair, Rambo dies in the book.
>>83249407
>Schneider is bound to a chair and gagged in a dark room
>What do they call you again?
>Muffled shouts
>Was it Dan 'Didn't even try to hide her' Schneider?
>Prepares car batteries
>Was it Dan parents identified her' Schneider?
>Plugs him in
>Perhaps it was Dan 'Never leaving my van, accomplice provider' Schneider
