Finally, he's back, there's nothing that could wrong now
HAIL
>getting worked by nick Spencer
I bet you think wolverine is dead for good too
Do people actually think he's always been a Nazi? It seems obvious from Standoff and the flashbacks we saw that it's the Red Skull fucking with him.
>>83179100
That would require actually reading comics to realise and the vast majority of people bitching are just moviefags and hyper-casuals.
I for one welcome our new aryan overlord. If AIM can be good guys now, why can't HYDRA?
>>83179146
Zemo ranting on about how much he cared about HYDRA bothered me more than Cap's mind control desu.
>>83179010
This is better than him getting a boyfriend
>>83179285
Marvel should give him a nazi boyfriend so twitter will rage even more.
>>83179010
>Finally, he's back, there's nothing that could wrong now
>nothing that could wrong now
>could wrong
Yeah, no.
>>83179010
This but unironically. Can't wait for Cap to beat the fuck out of a muzzy and a jew together while screaming about the destiny of the white race.
>You think this A on my head stands for UNTERMENSCHEN?!
>No, you move - this is lebensraum now!
>I'm loyal to nothing, General - except the National Socialist Party.
>>83179100
Maybe hes not a nazi hes just not to fond of jew's and got wrapped up with the wrong crowed
>>83179100
>>83179533
HYDRA =/= Nazi.
>>83179269
Was he ever even in charge of HYDRA?
Is it possible they're conflating him with Von Strucker?
>>83179594
Not in the movies, no...
>>83179612
Comics HYDRA predates the Nazi party by centuries. It was an eastern organization that Strucker co-opted after the war and turned it into a terrorist organization seeking world-domination, but despite Strucker being a former Nazi, he didn't bring over any nazi beliefs into his version of HYDRA beyond "fascism."
People who see them explicitly as nazis are the moviefags, because the movies portrayed HYDRA as a branch of the Nazi party that split off rather than its own independent terrorist cell.
Most HYDRA agents aren't nazis, neo or otherwise. Strucker renounced naziism after the war, and he was the only head of HYDRA that was a former nazi to begin with.
HYDRA is no more a nazi organization for having some nazi members than the republican party is.
>>83179269
IIRC, Zemo I was Hydra. Zemo II was not
Of course, I have been confused since the first issue of Remender's Captain Falcon as to which Zemo is it?
>>83179010
>>83179010
who is the artists for this picture? It's great
>>83179479
This. It's pretty retarded, but it should be very entertaining.
The anger from casuals is making it even better.
I'm guessing Cap was Hydra before it went full Nazi, and used the SHIELD/Avengers apparatus to remove the Nazi elements which he saw as damaging to the organization to which he was loyal.
>>83179744
Oh.
>>83179269
>>83179597
Blame that on Remender. He wanted a major Cap villain to rebuild HYDRA but Strucker was dead and he had just gotten done using Red Skull as a major antagonist throughout his Uncanny Avengers and didn't want to retread that, so he went with Zemo. Brubaker and Hopeless are also partly to blame for turning Zemo back into a villain in the first place.
When Remender left, a lot of his plotlines then had to get picked up by other writers. His dangling Avengers plotlines getting picked up by Duggan and his dangling Captain America plotlines getting picked up by Spencer. This whole "Steve is HYDRA" thing only happened in the first place because Remender did that "there's a HYDRA member in every superteam" and decided that "HYDRA member" should be Steve.
Both Zemo and Red Skull being heads of HYDRA are extremely recent developments. Zemo because of Remender and Red Skull because of Spencer (though you could blame that on the movies for popularizing the idea that Red Skull = HYDRA).
>>83179798
>Cap takes over HYDRA from the inside and turns them into a force for good like Roberto did with AIM
Shit nigga, I'm down. This was all worth it just to see the moviefags and casuals lose their collective shit, but I have faith in Spencer to at least make it an entertaining ride for the short amount of time it lasts before getting set back.
>>83180041
>Remender did that "there's a HYDRA member in every superteam" and decided that "HYDRA member" should be Steve.
oh fuck im just now remembering this.
>>83180041
The direction Zemo has taken since Nicieza left is one of the many baffling decisions made by Marvel that I am strangely bitter about.
Especially since writers tend to at least acknowledge Zemo's character development as something that happened in interviews but then ignore it anyway in their actual stories.
He was way more fun and interesting as an anti-hero - or at least a solid anti-villain with increasingly heroic tendencies - then what he is now. Which depending on the writer is either incomperent comic relief villain or Red Skull knockoff with a pink sock.
>Steve will never just be Captain America ever again
2005 was 10 years ago
>>83179100
Everyone knows but it's funnier to pretend it's genuine to make other people mad
>>83180388
>Especially since writers tend to at least acknowledge Zemo's character development as something that happened in interviews but then ignore it anyway in their actual stories.
This, it's fucking bizarre how Spencer in particular has been writing him now.
>>83179010
How'd he get young again?
Secret Wars nonsense?
>>83180536
Avengers Standoff, cosmic cube did it
>>83179010
He's so goddamn handsome, fuck. Just take me right now, Cap.
>>83179333
Even better, after he gets a boyfriend he asks Red Skull to use Hydra science to cure him, and he does get cured.
>>83179096
I'm hoping he does stay dead. X23 and Old man Logan are enough.
So the whole Cap being Hydra is just so people will like Sam more isn't it?
>>83180448
>Hey Spencer, Zemo is a villain in the movies so we want him to be a villain in the comics. Make it happen.
>B-but Mr. Brevoort, what about all that character development he went through into becoming an anti-hero?
>You're the writer. You figure out how to justify it.
>Fuck it, I'm not getting paid enough for this shit. Guess he's a villain now.
That said, it was Brubaker that turned him back into a villain, Hopeless who doubled down on it and made him super-evil, then Remender who doubled-down on it further by making him form his own HYDRA. Spencer is just continuing a trend that the last three Zemo writers started.
>>83179594
>>83179744
Comics HYDRA is movie HYDRA now.
>>83180668
That's not true at all, because Civil War movie Zemo is so much closer to Thunderbolts Zemo than we get in the comics just now.
>>83180680
Not really. Neither Red Skull's HYDRA (neo-nazis) nor Zemo's HYDRA (Masters of Evil) are anything like movie HYDRA. I know it's hard for you folks from /tv/ to understand this, but not everything can be explained away as "umm... uh... movies?!?!"
>>83180642
No, it's to drum up controversy in hopes of increasing sales.
>>83180041
It feels weird that he couldn't pick up from Andrea and Andreas. They've got that dissolute eurotrash vs. children of the great Baron von Strucker vibe. You could spin a good plotline out of them having to seriously take on his legacy, rather than just relying on it.
>>83180742
>It feels weird that he couldn't pick up from Andrea and Andreas
They were also dead at the time.
>>83180718
I mean in terms of people seeing them as having a direct connection to the Nazi party. You even got it with Avengers Academy, people calling Helmut Zemo a Nazi character when he's never been a Nazi.
>>83180627
I wonder if Duggan's next Cap/Wolverine/Deadpool team-up will be with FalCap or HydraCap and OML or X23.
>>83180760
Oh for sure. Making HYDRA a branch of naziism made sense for the movies, but its had the unfortunate side effect of making most people see HYDRA itself as a nazi organization and anyone with any connections to HYDRA as Nazis. It also doesn't help that with HYDRA being so prominent, people have been basically associating all Cap villains with HYDRA regardless of whether they actually were ever members.
I feel like everytime a Cap villain shows up anywhere for the past few years, they're working for HYDRA. The Serpent Society not being associated with HYDRA was a refreshing change of pace.
>>83180759
kek
Well, he could have invented someone. Or, Madame Hydra? The Sisters of Sin? Flag-Smasher? Cap's older villains are pretty dated.
It just feels a shame to shit on the years of character development put into Zemo, which really did make him a much better character.
>>83180448
I think he said during Standoff that Zemo's driving force was anger and revenge, and that once he's out of Pleasant Hill, he'll get back to a more controlled demeanor.My guess is that Zemo's gonna lose everything to Hydra+Cap, so he takes on Citizen V identity to wage guerilla warfare.
It's not even that the idea of Zemo HYDRA vs. Skull HYDRA with Cap a pawn in the middle is a bad one - that could be a great story.
It's just that Spencer seems to be writing a shit one. I can't imagine scenes like the Red Skull playing Heinrich Zemo's favourite musical pieces on a piano in front of Helmut to fuck with him here. I see Skull spouting Trump lines while Zemo does something wacky and inadvertently fucks everything up.
You could have had Cap dismantling Zemo's side of HYDRA with strong hints that he's getting psychologically messed up, and a final reveal that he's been mind-controlled once he's given Red Skull the victory in a HYDRA war.
>>83179798
>It's pretty retarded
No we /pol/ now
>>83180828
>Madame Hydra?
Yeah, he probably should have just gone with her. I'm pretty sure she was still alive at least.
>The Sisters of Sin?
The only one that's at all prominent was Sin herself, and she was also dead at the time.
>Flag-Smasher
Killed by Deadpool around that time.
Worth noting though that Sin, Andrea, Andreas, and Strucker were all brought back to life post-Secret Wars.
>>83180881
Maybe it will work out in the end, but I'm already bootyblasted and it's kind of "I'll believe it when I see it" for me now. As far as I'm concerned he's already rock bottom and I guess it was obvious they were going to fuck it up once they put him in Heinrich's mask anyway.
>>83180887
The story he's trying to tell is, unfortunately, just not one of the kinds of stories that Spencer is good at telling.
Spencer's strongsuits are comedy and z- to c-listers.
It honestly would have been 100 times better of a twist to have Sam be a Hydra sleeper agent. Steve's best friend and closest confidant, a comrade through decades of comic book history, and now the new Captain America, the ultimate sign of Steve's trust and faith in him, only to reveal he's being controlled by Steve's greatest enemy.
But that will literally never happen because Marvel comic writers are terrified of having a black person be a bad guy, or even forced against their will to be a bad guy.
>>83180819
it didnt m ake sense it was just once again marvel being cowards and not wanting to talk about spooky stuff like real nazism
>>83181037
They've already done Evil Sam in Axis.
>>83181037
That would also of been stupid not as stupid but still ridiculously stupid.
>>83179780
Can someone PLEASE explain this to me. I wasnt following cap stuff when it happened.
>>83181037
Remender wrote a whole issue retconing a previous retcon. Why would they retcon that a year later.
What is this DC?
>>83181446
Cap was old now so he could cap so samcape,d but now cap can cap and Sam goes I better falcon but caps all sam we can both cap so now this scomic is cap being cap again but cap aprently was hydra all along ever since he was like 6 or some childhood number cause his mom wanted to slick after drunk dick. So cap kill some non cap cap character then says hail hydra after saving some guy and beating up zemo tied up guy hears him say hail hydra.
>>83179065
Nicola and Bart
captain hydra
hydra america
Nazi Rogers
>>83181037
That was basically Sam's fucking origin, don't any of you read comics?
is Captain Nazi really that much of shock value? It wasn't hinted at at all?
So is this going to be HEAT 2.0? People went absolutely apeshit when Hal "turned evil." Climate seems right to see that happen for Steve.
>>83185116
It was hinted throughout the entire issue before the reveal that his memories were fucked with.
>>83180718
Honestly, it's not even like movie HYDRA. The first thing Scmidt did in Catain America was renounce the Nazi party, decry it as a failed ideology, and swore to make a better system before proceeding to make plans to nuke Berlin.
I doubt the subsequent Hydra reformations cared to return to that model, especially when it looked to try and topple both Capitalism and Communism.
>>83185152
It's more like a retread of The Captain vs Us Agent/Captain America, in my opinion. Or that time Captain America turned out to be a body double switched in during the Vietnam war while the real cap was still on ice. Or that other other other time Cap turned out to be a replacement.
Basically, what I'm saying is, this is only upsetting to movie babbies and casuals who have never read Avengers or X-men or really any Marvel property ever where this kind of shit is common.
it should never have happened in the first place. Everyone who knows about comics knows Cap being HYDRA isn’t going to stick. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to take a character created by two Jewish men to symbolize resistance against the Nazis and turn him into a Nazi for cheap shock value.
>Who knows, maybe it'll be a good story. No know does, not even the people doing the story. It's something new, why not do something different? We have had gay heros and villains, betrayal and love in those stories. This is just one more. I find it weird as well. What you're saying against #CaptainNazi are arguments so called anti SJW's would have for #CaptainGayForBuckyBecauseOfMCU. Your outrage would be their outrage, except you would claim to have the moral high ground, as you have in the past
Making a symbol of resistance against Nazism a Nazi is actually a betrayal of the values that his creators stood for, giving him a same-sex romantic relationship isn’t.
It is not merely a claim “claim” of moral high ground because it is absolutely true that the annoyance people are having towards Nazi cap is more justified. Only one of these plot twists is actually disrespectful to what Captain America has, historically and in-universe, always stood for.
>>83179100
of course no one things that, that would be a betrayal on the level of one more day
>>83179065
>>83185488
But he's not a nazi. He's HYDRA. Yes, HYDRA is evil. Yes, one of HYDRA's heads is a former Nazi, but that doesn't make them Nazis.
Bob, Agent of HYDRA, is a beloved character and often portrayed as a good guy, yet he's part of HYDRA.
AIM was HYDRA's science division that split off from them yet they're literally run by a former Avenger and New Mutant with their own team of superheroes. Is Hawkeye a nazi for being part of AIM? Or Squirrel Girl?
This is just another case of people who only watch the movies and get all their Marvel lore from the movies then assuming that the comics must be exactly like the movies then getting outraged when they aren't.
>>83179010
Why was he still muscular as an old man
>>83179594
>>83179744
Around the time "Steve" would have "joined" they certainly would have been Nazis.
First Valkyrie is black and now Steve is Hydra. What the actual fuck is happening?
I have a question
I dont give a shit about the nazi stuff or him being young or anything, but hasnt cap stopped HYDRA from taking over or blowing stuff up or being bad dudes in serious ways like... a lot? Why was he doing that, or allowed to, or wanted to?
>>83186176
Maybe he's going undercover
Maybe he's being mind controlled
Maybe people should stop chimping out over this shit
>>83179010
Did someone just fart?
>>83186210
I thought maybe there was a serious answer
or it was touched on. What with all the talk of "this fits perfectly into marvel history"
I'm glad I dont pay for Marvel to tryhard anymore
>>83186176
Because Red Skull didn't implant the fake memories that made Steve think he was a HYDRA sleeper agent until relatively recently. The earliest it could have happened was in the first arc of Remender's Uncanny Avengers.
>>83186262
so thats what happened? then why is everyone so buttmad about it? This is dumb
>>83180041
Skull was only involved with HYDRA in Cap vil. 1 #148 and it was a comic that was so reviled that sales went down afterwards, the writer got kicked out, and Englehart had to come in and clean things up.
>>83186290
>then why is everyone so buttmad about it?
Because the people who are buttmad are people who don't actually read comics. Just look at the hashtag, they're all clearly moviefags. The people who DO read comics that are mad about this aren't mad because "omg, Cap is and has always been a nazi?!" but because they think it's a lame plotline being done purely to drum up controversy, like Superior Spider-man.
>>83179100
Yea, there's no way it's genuine. It's either:
>Brainwashing
>Impostor
>Cap going undercover
>>83186351
The Red Skull that has Xavier's brain and has been appearing since the first arc of UA isn't the same Red Skull (he's a CLONE of the original Red Skull), and decided to create his own HYDRA at some point during the 8 month timeskip after Secret Wars.
Literally the modern equivalent of those Superdickery covers, where the whole idea was to get the audience to go "WHAAAT? How is this possible?!"
>Read the comic to find out. :^)
>>83185976
>New Mutant
X-Baby.
>>83186431
Jesusfuck
>>83185976
I dunno, Strucker was the only Nazi in Hydra but then Marvel suddenly is adding the other Nazi related Cap baddies as well as Helmut (who technically isn't anymore but his father was although I don’t think Spencer would care) ot pisses me off, might as well make it a Nazi organization now.
>>83180718
They’re trying their hardest to make it that way
>>83186053
Not really, Hydra got its first Nazi when Strucker took over the organization close to the end of WWII when he ended in Hydra Island and it was controlled by the Japanese before he killed their leader.
Red Skull kind of alludes to that in the last issue of Standoff when he mentions that he thought Strucker bringing Hydra "from the East" was madness.
>>83187190
>>83186053
Wait did you mean Steve "joining" when he was a child?
>>83187238
its more like his mother joined and he was a little kid at the time, so he had no real choice in the matter
>>83179010
When the fuck did Cap get back to earth?
>>83179010
Damn, he's hot.
>inb4 Marvel tries to make pic related
>>83179010
>>83194456
